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Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Toerag
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75 posted 05-20-2004 02:28 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Balladeer, do you remember the Hanoi trail?....Our kind hearted President Johnson wouldn't allow us to attack their supply lines, not even fire back because the 'Cong would use women and children as human shields.....war is hell....but, then it was more hell on the U.S....I just don't understand so many people's perspective...I know the liberal media makes things sound like we are animals....(Please do not interpret this wrongly Aenimal)....LOL..but ya have to be there...ya just have to be there to know...I know Ron's explanation and opinion...but, if you were a POW, under circumstances and torture unheard of, not like the crap our very few soldiers have done to Iraqi's...I wonder if anyone would be "spiteful" if they were freed or saved under any circumstance?
Aenimal
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76 posted 05-20-2004 03:59 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Well Deer one could also assume monies recovered were gifts (bride/grooms recieve envelopes of money), firing of weapons is a known part of arab tradition, and the radio equipment might have been DJ/show equipment. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that's what it was, I'm waiting for specifics.


Toe I know what you're saying about being there, I do, but there are limits. You can't apply that to the Abhu Ghraib prison abuses, you can't apply it to soldiers forcing female citizens to bare their breasts, and you can't apply it to soldiers getting children to pose with posters that say SGT. so and so killed my parents. This latest incident with the wedding party, I understand. But the rest, no excuses.
Toerag
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77 posted 05-20-2004 04:16 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Aenimal...I'm not making excuses for any of that crap...That's exactly what it is and shouldn't be tolerated......I agree whole heartedly.....I'm referring to entirely different things..think that's where the misunderstanding is coming from..
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78 posted 05-20-2004 05:48 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

No I know what you meant Toe. I'm just specifying what it is I'm arguing against. There may be some misinterprations about me so let me clarify I'm not completely anti-military and I'm not completely anti-conservative. I'm anti-BS and anti-partisanship.

I'm also anti-Busch..ugh who drinks that? Tell you what I'll bring down a case of Labatt Ice, higher alchohol content, which considering some of our past frictions, is an absolute neccessity.
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79 posted 05-20-2004 06:30 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

As for Rumsfeld not selling chemical weapons he went and met Hussein IN PERSON..that is a well known fact over in europe...but then again i dont excpect people in america to beleive it...since they are spoon fed everything they have to know...and censored at every step by the republican owned media...the news teams in america just dare not tell people what is actually going on they might lose the next election,if the people really knew....

Would you people make up my mind???????
FIRST we have people saying that the news media is telling the truth about the Bush administration, and America needs to know the truth... THEN we are told that Michael Moore is telling the truth about the Bush administration... yet,somehow, the news media that is telling the truth about the Bush administration is conservatively owned and hiding the truth from the Americans... Can they do that and still hide the truth from us?? And, geez... where is Michael Moore durinig all of thes?? If he is telling the TRUTH about all of what is going on, then WHERE IN THE NAME OF THOR'S HOLY HAMMER IS HE DURING THIS??????? Why hasn't he splashed this bit of information about Rumsfeld selling chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein all over the news?
And since the President's administration is under fire for the Prison scandal, why aren't the Democrats slamming this all over the news in another attempt to drop President Bush's popularity rating even further, so their candidate can surge ahead in the polls???
Oh, I apologize... when was this supposed to have happened??? Perhaps it was while he was the CEO of G.D. Searle & Co, a  pharmaceutical company...??? Maybe, it was while he was the CEO of General Instrument Corporation, a leader in broadband transmission, distribution, and access control technologies... If it wasn't then, perhaps it was while he was CEO of Gilead Sciences, Inc., a pharmaceutical company...
Actually, I have another thought that has literally just occurred to me while I was typing this...
Why haven't the French, or the Russians, or the Anti-Bush/Anti-Blair/Anti-War personnel in Europe started screaming about this??? If it is such common knowledge, then WHERE IN THE NAME OF ODIN'S LEFT KNEECAP IS IT?????????? How is it that everyone knows about it, yet no one is talking about it???

So much for the truth.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

[This message has been edited by Ringo (05-20-2004 07:13 PM).]

Balladeer
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80 posted 05-20-2004 06:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aenimal, that was a very smart thing you said - you're waiting for specifics. That's exactly the right thing to do. I'm also waiting because every expanation you said could have very well been true or perhaps firing guns at 3 in the morning combined with intelligence the military claims to have that it was a safe house for terrorists may also have merit. Hopefully, the truth will come out. Frankly, I doubt that any Bush or American haters would buy whatever came out if it went against their way of thinking but one can hope. If it comes out that it was a soldier overreaction situation I could buy that because I've seen it happen. Waiting for facts insteads of jumping on headlines as gospel is the best, and most honest, thing we can do...
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81 posted 05-20-2004 07:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, RIngo!! Lithium level getting a little low??? Believe me, I know exactly what you mean. Everytime I hear of the media favoring the conservatives I have to smile. There are good and bad things happening in Iraq. When's the last time you read of any of the good?? Doesn't happen. Surely if the media supported Bush they would make sure to get some of it noticed. I heard on NPR the other day that one director put together a 30 minute presentation of the good we have done for the Iraqis. There was footage of children who had had their hands cut off in Hussein's prisons that were taken to the US where mechanical hands and arms were created for them; the doctors, hospitals and surgeons all donating their time and expense. There were other human interest scenes where many Iraqis were thanking the American soldiers, not only for overcoming Hussein, but for humanitarian things they were doing. He took his tape to every news agency in the US. No one would show it - said they didn't have time. Does this sound like a pro-Bush move? Hardly. Peter Jennings and his buddies never miss an opportunity to get smooth, disguised digs in at the administration and that's a known fact. The day that any good news or positive reporting comes out of Iraq I'll believe it's not a completely liberal press - and before any wise guys jump on that to say there are no good things to report, there are.
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82 posted 05-20-2004 07:17 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, 'Deer... the presrciption ran out... the Doc said that he couldn't give me a strong enough dose.

I also agree with the lack of "good" news. I wasn't watching too closely, however I didn't see a story about the little girl that the American doctors are busting their... uh... well... you know... to get over here for some surgery that will save her life. I don't have all of the details, however, because I caught a 10 second blurb on Headline News that mentioned it.
Let's see Michael moore report that.

(if it DID make the mainstream news, then I apologize to Dan Rather and company. I just didn't see it... but I still want to see Michael Moore report that truth in his next movie)

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Denise
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83 posted 05-20-2004 08:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I would agree, Karen, IF that is what had happened...but it isn't.

Raph, it's not reflex partisan thinking...it's called REALITY.

Clinton was also a liar and a perjurer and an appeaser of terrorists who did absolutely nothing to strenghten and defend our nation, de-funding the military, tying the hands of the FBI & CIA, all the while trysting with Monica. Swell guy.

Republican owned media censoring what we hear... That's not the way it is, Goldenrose. You couldn't be more wrong. You really have to stop listening to Michael Moore and those who listen to Michael Moore. Until you do you won't have a clue as to how things really are here.

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84 posted 05-20-2004 08:23 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, Denise, there is ONE mine little thing wrong with your thinking...
According to former President Clinton:

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

He only had an "inappropriate" relationship with her.
lol

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Denise
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85 posted 05-20-2004 08:42 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yeah, I forgot, Ringo, lol, and he's also the guy who redefined the meaning of "sexual relations" and thought we needed clarification of what the word "is" is.
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86 posted 05-20-2004 10:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is an e-mail which describes the good I referred to much better than I can..

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq:

        As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened.  I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home.  And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you.  This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

        Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will.  We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts.  So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion
gemjop
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87 posted 05-20-2004 10:08 PM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

its unlikely we'll ever know any truths. people lie, cover up, cover for other people, it's the way of the world unfortunately, regardless of who you are. if there were evidence, would it be trustworthy? would you believe it just because an official enquiry was made? No matter how important a person is, or their job, like its been said, no one wants to take responsibility. We'll never know, because, in the grand scheme of things, we have zilch power, money or status. I sometimes like to think we do have an eensy smidgen(of power), but really? zip.

the power to vote in a president/prime minister of our choice, and that is where our influence ends.

Aenimal
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88 posted 05-20-2004 10:52 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Raph, it's not reflex partisan thinking...it's called REALITY.


"There is no way you can use the word "reality" without quotation marks around it."
~Joseph Campbell

"Mind imposes reality on the data of the senses."
~Kant

"Reality . . . what a concept!"
~Robin Williams

Well, no doubt you've accepted it as your reality. And I admire your absolute conviction, but for its slaveshly partisan skew. It's not an attack, you're loyal to it's thinking, I on the other hand lack conviction in either party, preferring to focus on the issues not partylines.

quote:
Clinton was also a liar and a perjurer and an appeaser of terrorists who did absolutely nothing to strenghten and defend our nation, de-funding the military, tying the hands of the FBI & CIA, all the while trysting with Monica. Swell guy.


It's all the previous administrations fault.Never saw that coming

I never said he was a swell guy, he did lie and was exposed for it, just as the Bush administration is slowly being exposed for it's share of crapola. Remember Clarke's and Woodward's books? I'm sure you do and have dismissed them already.

Recall Clinton ordering the bombing of Al Quaida camps? He was railed for it and it was labeled a distraction tactic. By the liberal media no doubt?

Sexual dalliances and trysts are nothing new in the Presidency (there are books on the subject wanna list of presidents?) Personally I think any man who find time to be that sexually active and still run a country and its foreign relations as smoothly, deserves some credit.

A better leader with his pants around his ankles then Bush will ever be. I'm not entirely sure Bush can even put on his pants without assistance.

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89 posted 05-20-2004 11:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"Personally I think any man who find time to be that sexually active and still run a country and its foreign relations as smoothly, deserves some credit."

Very clever, Raph. It makes me wonder that, had Bush been involved in such shenannigans, you would be so gratuitous in your reply. Somehow I doubt it...

Concerning you final remark about Bush, obviously you have progressed (or is tha digressed) from intelligent conversation to crude sarcasm that weakens whatever sensible points you were trying to make....
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90 posted 05-20-2004 11:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

That's the problem, Raph, Clinton wasn't "running the country". He had his pants down, period. If people want to place blame for 9/11 other than where it primarily belongs (with the Islamists), Clinton should be at the top of that list.

And no, the mainstream media did not castigate Clinton for his diversional bombing escapade. That would have been the members of Congress who were getting ready to impeach him. The media mentioned it in passing and quickly "moved on" as they do so well when they want to pretend that they are fair and balanced.

I do plan on getting Woodward's book, but not Clarke's. The words I heard out of his own mouth proved to me that he was nothing but a political opportunist and a liar.

And I guess to some reality falls under the same category as truth...it's all relative. I never saw that coming either.

My party affiliation for most of my life has been Independent. I don't vote the "party line", I vote on issues. You don't have to actually be a Republican to see the "new" Democratic party for what it really is...hard left socialists, not the same party it used to be.

And if you all could actually come up with something against Bush that would 'stick' that would actually prove he is such the awful leader that you claim he is, you'd stop falling back on that tired old "Bush is stupid" line.

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91 posted 05-20-2004 11:52 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually,Denise,I would have to disagree with you on the fact that Clinton did nothing. As you can tell from my posts all over this issue, I am a Bush man, and I lean towards the Republicans (although I voted for the local state Reresentative 4 times already and he is a Democrat), however I also am willing to give proper due when it is owed.
The economy under Clinton did get better, and was actually on it's way up. The deficite (my spelling sucks) was lowered, and the budget had a surplus. It did, however, start to drop BEFORE President Bush came into power. Regardless, it was on the rise at one time.
Just because he was one of the weakest presidents on defense in the past 40 years, does not take away from his accomplishments.

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92 posted 05-21-2004 12:10 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Ringo...not to get on a "bash Clinton" routine but there was no "real" surplus under him...they called it a surplus by not calculating social security payouts and also by the investigation at the end which showed that the White House had "restructured" the figures by almost 40% to make them look better. You could have read that back on page 13 or so. It never made the front page of our "conservative" press. Most economists agree that drastic changes in the market can trace the root causes back several years...the collapse after Bush took over was Clinton's house of cards falling down. He made everything look as good as it could during his time in office and could care less what happened after he left. That is the legacy of Slick Willie...
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93 posted 05-21-2004 01:01 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Balladeer:

quote:
Very clever, Raph. It makes me wonder that, had Bush been involved in such shenannigans, you would be so gratuitous in your reply. Somehow I doubt it...
Concerning you final remark about Bush, obviously you have progressed (or is tha digressed) from intelligent conversation to crude sarcasm that weakens whatever sensible points you were trying to make....


If it was Bush's sole fault, yes I would be as gracious, I'm not a democrat. I'm not completelyagainst republican politics, I'm against the Bush administrations many many faults!

Hmmm Deer, Why doesn't it surprise me at all that you would comment on me but not see anything of digressive or sarcastic concerning any of Denise's or Ringo's comments or potshots concerning Clinton? Can you say hypocrisy? I knew ya could.

quote:
And if you all could actually come up with something against Bush that would 'stick' that would actually prove he is such the awful leader that you claim he is, you'd stop falling back on that tired old "Bush is stupid" line.


There's nothing that would 'stick' when you've ignored everything thusfar by falling back on tired propaganda about unfair liberal media hype and dismissing all voices from the left. You dismiss Clarke but I'm positive you think Condaleeza Rice's testimony honest and informative.

Look, whatever makes you sleep at night in this horrible horrible world. I'm done arguing because there can be absolutely no middle ground where partisanship is involved. It's destroying the west, choice and democracy have become a complete farse. Let it all rot.
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94 posted 05-21-2004 08:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nice side-stepping, Raph...and if you want to call me a hypocrite by inference, that's ok. I've tried to steer clear of personal insults (not always successfully) and will leave it at that. Yes, the arguing is over...peace.
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95 posted 05-21-2004 02:31 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Shiva H Vishnu! Side-stepping no, exasperation yes. It wasn't an insult it's an observation. If you're critical of me while completely ignoring comments by those who happen to share your views, is that not hypocritical? Why do I bother?

"Squirrels must adore you." "Why?" "Because you're @$*#@% NUTS!"

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96 posted 05-21-2004 06:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

don't...
Ringo
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97 posted 05-21-2004 07:50 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, Raph, That poke at President Clinton was very simply a one liner... it was a JOKE. Anyone who engages in oral SEX and then says he didn't have sex deserves to be hammered on his word choice. I have also poked wise at President Reagan, who was a much better President than all of his successors combined, IMHO. I have also made comments about "Dubya", although not here, that were wise cracks.

I have also, either in this thread, or another, I forgot... I think it was the one about the economy and bank rates that Brad started... made statements to the fact that President Bill Clinton, while EXTREMELY soft on Defense, and WAYYY too pansy-butt when it comes to deploying the military (he left Somalia because less than 100 people got hurt... and less than 30 died... at the cost to the Somalis of thousands) was a decent president that did good things for the economy.

I do not blindly follow anyone, however, I do tend to support my leaders in a time of crisis. Do I agree that this war was started on decent intelligence? Absolutely not. And I have said so in other discussions. Do I think that President Bush went into this headstrong with no support??? Absolutely not. The 11 nations with casualties and the 38 that offered assitance of some sort proves that.
I also feel that he needs to work on being as strong on domestic policies (beasides the economy... the numbers prove his worth there) as he is on Foreign ones.

I agree that there are too many circles being run in this thread, so I am going to end my part with this:
Once the dust clears and the fallout (for lack of a better word) has settled, (in about 50 years or so) I firmly believe that the sitting president is going to be looked on as one of the great presidents of this century, and on par with FDR. For proof, I offer:
FDR had job approval ratings at the beginning of WWII (before Pearl Harbor) very close to what President Bush has now. He was elected by a minority margin. He was thought to be very weak on domestic issues while being strong on forign policy. He had people screaming about abuses in the military (hence the commission that was headed by Eisenhower to end the corruption) and he was involved in the worst terroristic attack in the nation's history. Eventually, the economy turned around (from Depression to boom), and he served enough terms to have a Constitutional Amendment added because of him.

I also offer Ronald Reagan, who took the economy of the Carter Administration, and turned it around. He also served 2 terms as president, only the 4th Republican to ever do so... and only the 2nd to finish his term. And, even thought the Democrats were screaming and gnashing their teeth because of him, and spent NO time being kind to him or his administration, they were the first ones to denounce the movie that was made about the Reagans that was a movie of the week. Now, history is beginning to show Reagan for being the good president that he was. I believe the same will happen to Dubya.

These are just my thoughts, and I invite everyone to their own as well. Happy thinking.

Anyhow, I said I was going to end the rant.

I wish everyone a great day and an even better tomorrow.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

[This message has been edited by Ringo (05-21-2004 08:34 PM).]

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98 posted 05-21-2004 08:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Actually, Raph, I personally think it is socialism that is destroying the West.

I think the main difference in my comments about Clinton and yours about Bush is that I was stating known facts about Clinton's conduct during his presidency. He did lie under oath, he lied to his cabinet, he lied to the nation, he did have 'inappropriate relations'. He was impeached. He did nothing about the terrorist attacks. Your comments were basically Bush is stupid and Bush lied,
because what you think should constitute an  amount of WMDs necessary to justify war did not materialize. WMDs have been found, but the amounts found do not seem like that big of a deal. What are a few viles of bacteria? Some chemical compounds? Banned long-range missiles capable of delivering them? Some mustard gas and VX nerve gas? Or the convoy to Syria that intelligence spotted three days prior to the war that has recently been verified to have contained WMDs? Where was the immediate threat? Bush never said the threat was immediate. He said we can't continue to do nothing about Saddam's capabilities until the threat becomes imminent. That doesn't make him a liar.

People can disagree with Bush's conviction that it was time to take action, that's certainly their right. But that doesn't make Bush stupid because they don't agree with him. He may have been right that it was time to take decisive action after 12 years (and I think all but two members of Congress supported that decision at the time), he may have been wrong; and they may be wrong that we should have given it more time, but then again they may be right. Only time will tell. But I don't find any justification for the hateful, undermining behavior that is being exhibited by some who disagree with his decision, especially by those in leadership positions in Congress who originally supported his decision.

And I'm not dismissing out of hand every voice from the left. I seriously consider all voices when they are thoughtful and delivered in a respectful manner. Unfortunately, most of what is heard from the left is snide, baseless, hateful and vile invective. Their anger gets in the way of my hearing them.  
Ringo
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since 02-20-2003
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Saluting with misty eyes


99 posted 05-21-2004 09:17 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Since most of the major players in this debate have had their say, I would like to ask that it stop... please?
We are all saying the same things over and over,and there in NO ground being gained... we are fighting over the same hill that we started on, and the only thing happening is the hill is getting blown to pieces.

Thanks.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

 
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