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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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serenity blaze
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50 posted 05-17-2004 11:44 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Ron, for yet again, saying so eloquently the things I seem to be unable to express.

This incident truly hurt, and to feel "dismissed" because I have no experience in the military or wartime behaviors doubles that pain.

I've lost a lot of faith, and the condescension of those who have served our country (and continue to serve) has done nothing to replace that faith.

Your calm assessments and open-mindedness does help me.

I was beginning to think that the veterans of our armed forces would also like to revoke my right to vote, because, after all, I truly couldn't comprehend the facts of world affairs having never been there.

Thank you.



I managed to read in this thread without my blood boiling over.

Aenimal
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51 posted 05-17-2004 11:58 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

BTW Denise, I find your comment 'at the hands of Islamists' disturbing. You link their religion with their attrocities but I don't read a link between coalition beliefs with theirs. One could see it as an example of western/christian self-righteousness.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (05-18-2004 12:13 AM).]

Goldenrose
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52 posted 05-18-2004 04:54 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Denise described doing deals with the devil...well i would have thought that selling Saddam Hussein chemical weapons BEFORE he became an enemy of coalition forces was doing EXACTLY that...who was it that sold him these weapons...hmmmm ..if my memory is correct that would be Rumsfeld..but hey at least he used the weapons on the Iranian's and Kurds.
As for the Syria situation with WMD...is that where the war will be taken next?...Why not...?....Then it will be like finding the needle in the heystack..going from  county to country in the middle east..alienating other arab nations and making things worse.. in the vain hope of finding the WMD's...War was illegal..British and american soldiers lost their life on a ''Lie''..as quoted by a fellow american at the Cannes film festival..yes you guessed it... Michael Moore...and i think that i believe him...

Peace to the world..no more wars...

Have good day...

Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

Craw
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53 posted 05-18-2004 05:44 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw



Exactly right. The point I made in a previous thread that disappeared into the ether was that at the very core of this problem about justifying US and British activities in Iraq is the level of hypocrisy involved. Both Britain and the US supported Saddam Hussein and, in fact, armed him when we thought the big bogey man in the region was Iran. How much did we care then about what happened to the Kurds in Iraq? Now suddenly we're pretending that the war was fought for 'moral' values, yet that is clearly a lie and is seen as such by the rest of the world. If we cared a jot about the Kurds we would be pursuing the Turks for their appalling record of persecuting the Kurds in Turkey and the border with iraq. But we don't because Turkey is a member of NATO and a member of the coalition against Saddam and therefore one of the good guys. To justify our policies in Iraq involve scores of these mind-boggling contortions
of logic and should, if we've any sense at all, continue to throw up questions such as:

Q: If we're really bothered about human rights issues why don't we invade North Korea and China?

A: Cos they really have weapons of mass destruction while we knew Saddam was an easy touch who didn't have any.

Q: If we're worried about nations in the middle east who have vast and illegal stocks of weapons of mass destruction as well as a hugely dubious record of human rights in its illegally occupied territories, why don't we take on Israel?

A: Cos it's a friend. And, when it comes down to it, we don't let petty matters like morality or human rights get in the way of advantageous political relationships.

The whole of our political history aside (For instance, the British gassed the Kurds before Saddam was born)these questions comprise part of why our attempts to justify ourselves in Iraq are looked on with total scepticism by the rest of the world and why the US and Britain are objects of hate and ridicule. This is the context in which we must see prisoner abuse: it simply confirms to many people that we talk morality while practising the only thing we've ever been any good at: intimidation.

Mysteria
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54 posted 05-18-2004 01:26 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

quote:
  Ron said: The worst pain can only come from those you loved and trusted.
Sitting up in Canada as a neighbour of the United States - this is what scares the hell out of me personally. I am not able to give an opinion one way or the other about the contents of this thread, as I have never been held captive, nor have I been a soldier in any war so my experience of wars is limited to what I feel.  I do know one thing for sure, this war makes me feel sick.  I am hoping others will be feeling just as sick too, and put an end to it, at least this war, this time.  I wondered too, if Americans were worried about another draft?  Then maybe just then, it would be enough to stop it?

The one thing that impresses me most about the States is the sincere patriotism display and talked about down there.  I respect those who uphold it, and fight for the freedom I think of when I think United States of America.  What happened in this war to the prisoners has happened over and over in many wars, and certainly it doesn't make it right.  I can still hear some draft dodgers in my mom's kitchen telling us all of their encounters in Viet Nam, and I have to tell you that what I heard from those young men I never forgot.  From that point on, I just assumed everyone lost their sanity somewhat in any war.  It still doesn't make it right, but to me, I try to understand it and the circumstances.  How can I possibly judge having not been there?  

I came from Winnipeg, from a mainly Jewish community, and many of my friends were Jewish, so when I heard their stories those also made my stomach turn a bit.  It amazed me but somehow they forgave the Germans, but as I was told, they will never forget they said.  The look on the Gramma's face when this subject came up actually used to make me cry as a teen.

Sorry to intrude on the thread without the greatest knowledge on the subject, but I have so many feelings just reading what each of you write.  I have to tell you I do pray for everyone, and all nationalities in any war, as I could be so wrong, but when a country's traditons, beliefs, and way of life is treatened, and they fight, I have to wonder who the villian really is?  Throughout history wars have seemed necessary, but I guess I am a peacemaker at heart, and don't "get" world economics.  

Does anybody take responsibility anymore, well I sure as hell hope so. The greatest thing about a democracy is you can vote!  Peace!
Toerag
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55 posted 05-18-2004 04:57 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Ron, in all due respect...(cuz anyone that saw anything near what I saw is due respect), but I doubt you witnessed what I did...or your reply wouldn't have mentioned "mockery"....I'll just say this Ron, I am positive you didn't do what I had to do, under orders, in places we weren't in....LOL...or you wouldn't mutter that insult....and, I doubt you meant it as an insult....but, I did, and would do again, ANYTHING that was necessary to free or save American lives....and was thanked by literally dozens....and by vets when I got back when Vietnam wasn't popular....I still know the name of every person in my "little group"...one of very few "little groups" that had to do what we did....I remember EVERY NAME, and, every name of the ones that didn't come home....I have nightmares nearly every night, not only from what I did, but what I couldn't do, and believe me Ron, I'm sure you're a proud vet...but you have no idea what some of us had to do and why we HAD to do it....speak from experience Ron, you should be proud to, but don't speak of things you don't know...and believe me, you don't know all, most don't....as I'm sure I don't....I took no offense, honestly, but I know things not many people do know...and wish I didn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
serenity blaze
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56 posted 05-18-2004 05:43 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Toe? With all due respect to you, and as you know, with the utmost affection as well--I realize that I will never know what you feel.

I've said those same words to others, about things that I've encountered in my life too.

Perhaps it's a sorry analogy, but let me try this.

I can say to others, "you will never know what it is like to be an abusive relationship until you've been there." I can say it and mean that. But I also know, that just because I understand the experience of it, doesn't mean I'm the best the judge of how to resolve it.

Sometimes it takes a bit of distance to judge the insanity of a situation, because, as is evident by the topic of this thread, our rational mind becomes tainted just by virtue of belonging to the actual experience.

I'm sure you didn't mean to diminish my feelings, or anyone else's. Nor did I (or, I believe, anyone else) intend to diminish yours.

I'd still like to believe we're all in this together, all of us responsible for what happened, which makes all of us responsible to correct it.

Peace.
Toerag
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57 posted 05-18-2004 05:55 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Yep Serenity...we're all in this together..just hopefully it will be a "wise" majority that leads this country to a decent and wise end....I take no offense to anyone's opinion, though it may not show on these posts....that's why I'd rather just stay away from these topics..don't know why the hell I came over here?....LOL..take care sweets...
Ron
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58 posted 05-18-2004 08:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Maybe someday, Toe, we can surprise each over a few cold beers. You might be the first to hear my story, and one of very few to even hear my MOS. But I can assure you that what happened to me, or whatever happened to you, would make no difference in how I feel today. Those who value life over liberty deserve neither, and anyone who saved my life at the cost of what I fought for will receive only my spite. If our ideals aren't worth my life, then they were never worth the lives of our friends either. That, my friend, would be unacceptable.
Denise
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59 posted 05-18-2004 10:31 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Raph, if you go back and read Bush's statement prior to the war, he did not say there was an immediate threat. He said that we can't wait until the threat becomes imminent.

As for the mainstream media...it is liberal. There is no such thing as a conservative mainstream media.

As for calling the terrorists Islamists, well, I'm just calling them what they are. Not all adherents of Islam are Islamists. An Islamist is a person of the Islamic faith who believes in any means necessary to advance their violent version of Islam. I'm not the one linking their religion with their violent actions. They are the ones who have done that.

And it doesn't surprise me that some could see it as an example of western/christian self-righteousness. They'd be wrong, though.

Goldenrose, Yeah, in hindsight it was not the smartest thing to sell any weapons to Saddam, but hindsight is wisdom that comes after the fact. Iran was our biggest problem back then and we had no way of knowing that Saddam would turn the weapons on his own people and a neighboring country.

And you really have to stop listening to Michael Moore. He really is an idiot.

No, you're misunderstanding me, Ron. I am not condoning or diminishing what has been done, nor dismissing it. It is a disgrace on all of us. But I doubt that there has ever been a war without some members of the military behaving disgracefully and dishonorably. There will always be the bad apples in the military, just as there are in society at large.

No one can be naive enough to believe that every member of our military will always behave in an honorable fashion. Recognizing that inevitability is not condoning it or dismissing it. We deal with it when it surfaces. And they will pay the consequences, as they should. That is what defines us, as a nation, as honorable...how we deal with those who have disgraced our honor, not the fact that there are dishonorable members among us.

My point is that this is being used as a political football in an attempt to discredit the current administration by the political hypocrites who discriminately manufacture moral outrage when it suits their political aims. Other than that, moral outrage is a foreign concept to them. And their lack of moral outrage concerning the atrocities being perpetrated against our military and civilians speaks volumes to me.
Balladeer
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60 posted 05-18-2004 11:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron....I'm not invited for the beers??? I have a few antidotes to throw in...
Aenimal
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61 posted 05-18-2004 11:51 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Raph, if you go back and read Bush's statement prior to the war, he did not say there was an immediate threat. He said that we can't wait until the threat becomes imminent.


Semantics..

quote:
As for the mainstream media...it is liberal. There is no such thing as a conservative mainstream media.


There are no conservatively slanted newspapers and outlets? LOL thanks, it's been a rough day I needed that.

quote:
As for calling the terrorists Islamists, well, I'm just calling them what they are. Not all adherents of Islam are Islamists. An Islamist is a person of the Islamic faith who believes in any means necessary to advance their violent version of Islam. I'm not the one linking their religion with their violent actions. They are the ones who have done that.


I don't think in the case of Iraqis, that its a matter of their faith or advancing their version of Islam, but of trying to get occupiers out of their country. But if you do believe this then the armies that currently occupy and change the land of the Islamists are mostly christians. Shall we call this a crusade then?

As for Michael Moore being an idiot, he's not. I admit he does have a tendency to exaggerate and slant his information but there are truths in what he says. There are ties and links and they're well known with regards to Bush family and republican interests and contracting/profits.
Denise
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62 posted 05-19-2004 12:39 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Raph, How is it semantics when what the President actually said is just the opposite of what you and others claim he has said?

Sure there are conservative news outlets (thank God!), I never said that there weren't, but they sure as hell aren't the mainstream. Your rough day probably explains why you didn't actually read what I wrote. But it's good that you got a good laugh out of it!  

The majority of those causing the current violence in Iraq are not Iraqis, they are those with Al Qaida ties who have flooded into the region from surrounding countries, attempting to get us to give up and go home, (they haven't learned yet that Bush is not Clinton...slow learners) thus ensuring that Iraq does not become a free self-governing democratic society.

No, I wouldn't call it a crusade, but I have heard that...in the mainstream media!

The best liars in the world lace their rhetoric with little tidbits of truth, otherwise nobody would ever believe them at all. If more people gave heed to Michael Moore, I'd call him a dangerous idiot. But as it stands, he's just an average idiot, in my opinion.  

serenity blaze
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63 posted 05-19-2004 02:53 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Perhaps semantics isn't the proper word.

If "what the president said" doesn't equate with the facts of what occurred, I do believe we can advance to calling that LIES.

But yes, I too, wait, to weigh the facts.

Anybody know where we can get some?
Ringo
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64 posted 05-19-2004 06:51 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Goldenrose- When Saddam Hussein came to power (you want to talk illegal and violent... read HIS story) in 1979, Donald Rumsfeld was the CEO for  a pharmesudical company, and had been since 1977. He remained in the business world until 1993. Since the US didn't sell Hussein any weapons until 1979 when Secretary Rumsfeld was out of politics, and stopped selling them to him in the late 80's when Secretary Rumsfeld was still in the corporate business world... WHEN did Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld sell even ONE weapon to Saddam Hussein?? Secretary Rumsfeld didn't sell Saddam Hussein so much as a sqirt gun.
It is true that the US sold the weapons to him, HOWEVER that was a long dead presidency that had done so. Blaming Rumsfeld for selling weapons is akin to blaming Chancellor Schroeder for mistreating the Jews in Nazi Germany, or blaming Mikhail Fradkov for the Walker Spy ring. Both occurred under a past era that the present administration has nothing to do with.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... http://www.cmlb.net/ringo
Toerag
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65 posted 05-19-2004 07:31 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Did someone mention beer?..Hey Ron, for God's sake invite Balladeer, he can buy...
Aenimal
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66 posted 05-19-2004 08:25 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise:

Karen's right, my first choice of words would have been edited. My second choice would have been the Orwellian doublethink or it's relative doublespeak. Why use semantics? Look beyond the first speech.

Over the course of months leading to the final declaration of war there was a subtle, and not so subtle manipulation of words (leading to often contradictory statements within the administration) which created a dread sense of urgency to a looming Iraqi threat. A sense that allowed many to justify, at least initially, the need to steamroll over the UN and into action.

quote:
Sure there are conservative news outlets (thank God!), I never said that there weren't, but they sure as hell aren't the mainstream. Your rough day probably explains why you didn't actually read what I wrote. But it's good that you got a good laugh out of it!


No the laugh came at the fine example of reflex Partisan thinking dividing your nation. On the one hand the Democrats are screaming that the media is TOO conservative, while the Conservatives are claiming it's TOO Liberal! As for liberal, it's not surprising many conservatives might think so. Afterall, even conservative wasn't conservative enough for some, Enter the Neo-Cons.

quote:
The majority of those causing the current violence in Iraq are not Iraqis, they are those with Al Qaida ties who have flooded into the region from surrounding countries, attempting to get us to give up and go home, (they haven't learned yet that Bush is not Clinton...slow learners)


According to whom? The liberal media reports or Bush intelligence(now there's an oxymoron). You're right this isn't Clinton, Clinton was diplomatic, intelligent and a great speaker.

quote:
No, I wouldn't call it a crusade, but I have heard that...in the mainstream media!


I also seem to recall someone else using that word...George Bush!

quote:
The best liars in the world lace their rhetoric with little tidbits of truth, otherwise nobody would ever believe them at all. If more people gave heed to Michael Moore, I'd call him a dangerous idiot. But as it stands, he's just an average idiot, in my opinion


I completely agree, the dangerous idiots are the administration and thinking that's lead to this war.

Aenimal
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67 posted 05-19-2004 08:27 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Toe, Ron, Balladeer? I'm the youngest I'll buy the first round. Cheers.
Balladeer
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68 posted 05-19-2004 09:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sounds good to me, Aenimal. I'll have a Busch!!
Aenimal
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69 posted 05-19-2004 10:18 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

ROFL, who'd have thunk it?
Goldenrose
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70 posted 05-20-2004 04:47 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Denise....Michael Moore is a man who gets under the skin of average americans because he tells them truths they dont want to hear...

As for Rumsfeld not selling chemical weapons he went and met Hussein IN PERSON..that is a well known fact over in europe...but then again i dont excpect people in america to beleive it...since they are spoon fed everything they have to know...and censored at every step by the republican owned media...the news teams in america just dare not tell people what is actually going on they might lose the next election,if the people really knew....

But hey i just live in a country that has a leader that blindly follows Bush....

Peace and love


Goldenrose.


''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama


[This message has been edited by Goldenrose (05-20-2004 05:43 AM).]

Craw
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71 posted 05-20-2004 07:17 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw


Oh well folks,
      Another 19 Palestinians killed by Israeli tank shells and helicopters, 6 of them children and an Iraqi wedding party obliterated by an American helicopter gunship killing four chidren under the age of 10, beheading one of them.

Just one more ordinary day in the brave fight for democracy in the middle east.
Toerag
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72 posted 05-20-2004 11:03 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Aenimal....(Balladeer has a dozen Platinum cards...and drinks cheap beer)...But did pick a "brand Name"...the libs would say Bush drinks oil....Kerry's Suv DRINKS oil, while hauling ketchup and he drinks Billy beer...but, since you're the youngster, (Who you calling old anyway?)...you can buy the first round fersure...yall have a good day now .....ya hear?
Toerag
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73 posted 05-20-2004 02:04 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Craw....Pamphets have been dropped over 115 times, thru out Iraq, broadcasts almost daily, over Iraqi TV and radio, Iraqi troops/police have spread documentation almost daily since the occupation....TURN IN YOUR WEAPONS...DO NOT CELEBRATE REUNIONS AND WEDDING PARTIES WITH GUNFIRE, IF MISTAKEN FOR OFFENSIVE AGRESSION TOWARD COALITION OR IRAQI POLICE, THERE IS EXTREME DANGER IN RETURN FIRE....Does this make this an excuse...does this lessen the terror and terrible result?..Not by any means...but, until this war is over, and until soldiers from ANY nation, including Iraqi police do not have to be concerned with being fired upon,,,it's a fact that this can and probably will happen......sad situation....but if YOU were a soldier, from any nation, not just the U.S., and, with the ambushing, suicidal attempts, boobie traps and being fired upon at an almost hourly rate....it can happen and will....
Balladeer
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74 posted 05-20-2004 02:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.....and. of course, the fact that there was a  large amount of cash uncovered, along with weapons and radio equipment in this wedding held almost 80 miles from civilization, Toerag...but who wants to take that into consideration? Who cares that the terrorists commonly use women and children as shields....forget all that. It's easier just to quote headlines.

...and let's give thanks to Goldenrose for enlightening us as to how America really works. We just live here while I'm sure he must have a wealth of inteligent data at his command to show such expertise...
 
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