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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Opeth
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25 posted 05-15-2004 11:30 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth?"

~ Yes?

"I truly hope that you aren't suggesting that "mere" civilians aren't qualified to interpret the Constitution, or to interpret NATO laws, Geneova Convention????"

~ No.

"If that is what you're saying, as a representative of our armed forces, then your reply speaks more a greater concern for the average citizen."

~ It is not what I am saying, so don't be concerned.

"That was more than a little bit arrogant."

~ Why is a person arrogant these days, just because they happen to know and have more experience in a specific matter than others?  I don't get this. When I was young, and when I talked to a person who knew more about me regarding a specific topic, I never felt him or her to be arrogant... I felt that person to be knowing and listened and learned to what they said.

Today is a different type of day.

"A bleak garden to cry... when my innamorato died!"

serenity blaze
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26 posted 05-15-2004 11:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Today is a different type of day."

Yes.

That's apparent, now.

Opeth
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27 posted 05-16-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I guess it is. I guess graduate level classes don't mean anything. I guess vast amounts of experience in a certain profession does not mean anything because what the heck, we are all entitled to our own opinions... not! That would be like me walking into a doctor's locker room and begin to discuss MY opinion on crucial operation matters... and after each doctor explained to me, if they would waste their time to do so, where my errors are... I could say, "I am entitled to my opinion."

Sigh

"A bleak garden to cry... when my innamorato died!"

serenity blaze
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28 posted 05-16-2004 12:27 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Opeth, for this example:

"That would be like me walking into a doctor's locker room and begin to discuss MY opinion on crucial operation matters... and after each doctor explained to me, if they would waste their time to do so, where my errors are... I could say, "I am entitled to my opinion.""

I recently underwent withdrawal from steroid treatment that almost killed me. The expert opinion is that steroid would "arrest" the early development of rheumatoid arthritis.

My doctor didn't take the first blood sample before administering mega-doses of a chemical which turns out, has potentially lethal reactions to me.

It took me, to say "no, I don't accept this treatment, much less your diagnosis."

Good thing I did.

I have hepatis C and had I continued his "expert" steroid therapy I would probably be dead.

Take that analogy as you wish my friend, but please know that I am not in the position of laying blame.

It's all OURS.
Brad
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29 posted 05-16-2004 01:32 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Actually, I think Opeth's right. I don't have a clue to the nature of this tit for tat.

My guess is that he's conflating knowledge with judgement or speculation with knowledge, or general with specific knowledge, I'm not sure. Knowledge is an aid to judgement, but can never determine it.  Otherwise, we'd be robots.

On the other hand, his comment, I think, has or should have a different audience than the one here. It would make perfect sense in a different situation.  

Though I'm curious:

Opeth,

1) Do you think there was a direct order to perpetrate these acts. If so, my post would simply be wrong.

2) Do you think the recent change in interrogation rules was simply a PR stunt?

Damage control as they say.  
Aenimal
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30 posted 05-16-2004 01:39 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Opeth what exactly is your point? Not on the offensive I'm just not clear what you're arguing against? The military overstepped boundaries laid out by the Geneva Convention amongst other laws and codes of decency?

Maybe your point is 'all's fair in war' you do what you have to do to win. But considering many would argue against this being a legitimate war in the first place, that acts like these feed the 'insurgents' idea of occupation not liberation, or the fact that western countries (supposedly) sell and pride themselves as being ethically superior what defense is there for these actions?

serenity blaze
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31 posted 05-16-2004 02:14 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Raph, for asking what exactly is Opeth's point.

I was still scratching my head wondering what Brad agreed with...

Brad
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32 posted 05-16-2004 05:26 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I was just agreeing that I was clueless.
serenity blaze
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33 posted 05-16-2004 07:47 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

grin.

y'had me worried there.

Ringo
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34 posted 05-16-2004 11:59 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

The one thing that has me puzzled is the fact that everyone is screaming (not literally, I know) about the US military's lack of adherance to the Geneva Accords. It has been, perhaps, too many years since I attended the training on treatment of prisoners, however, I seem to remember something about those countries that didn't sign the Accords are not afforded the protection they provide. NONE of the Middle East countries, to the best of my knowledge, has ever signed the agreement.
It is true that, as Americans, we hold our military to a higher standard of "fair-play" and "compassion", however I find it hard to waste even a half second of my time feeling sorry for the Iraqis who deserved to be there. While we were doing things to mess with them psychologically, and mentally, they were tying our people around the neck to a bridge and throwing them off. We got them naked and took a few pictures and they beheaded a civilian. We restrict our actions to their combatants, and they attack civilian convoys and kill the drivers. We attempt to make life better for their citizens and they slit the throat of a journalist (Dan Pearl).
Yes, there were Iraqi soldiers who might not haev deserved to be incarcerated, however if ANY information they gave assisted in the saving of even ONE life of a member of the coalition, then that is the price tht must be paid.
IMHO

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
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Aenimal
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35 posted 05-16-2004 04:08 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

An eye for an eye then? Beautiful, exactly the kind of thinking that causes and will lengthen this 'war'. At what point do we show signs of a civilization? Is it any wonder the world is a toilet. This administration and war hasn't simply divided the opinion of a nation, but it's capacity for reason.
Ringo
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36 posted 05-16-2004 06:14 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Actually, Raph, I just looked over my lastpost and realized that I did, in fact, give off that impression, and that was not my intention...

I understand that there were, and are, Iraqi soldiers/citizens who did not deserve to be in that or any prison. For them, I feel empathetic. I also accept that there are Iraqis who DO deserve to be in there. While I do not believe that "an eye for an eye" is the proper way to behave, as the terrorists are involved in "a body for an eye" mentality.
I, as most other Americans, feel that our military should be held to a higher standard due to the fact that the world looks to us to behave in a higher standard. I am also severely angered at what occurred on the night shift at that prison, because the United States IS a signatore of the Geneva Accords. However, I also feel that if the things that were done caused intelligence to extract some little bit of information that was able to save an American life, or one of our allies lives, then I must follow the Jesuit line of thinking that the ends justified the means. (although I do not believe that the soldiers were ordered to do it... it was the isolated actions of a few idiots who were drunk with their own power).
The examples I gave were not to suggest "an eye for an eye" rather to explain why I have shed no tears, nor have I spent so much as a thought of regret for what the ones who were in that prison because they truly deserved to be there. I put them into the same category as an inmate in an American prison who killed 40 people because they were home ONLY in the way that they have no reason to complain if they are not treated as model citizens.
As far as "at what point", THAT statement makes no sense in my mind. We are building, and equipping schools, we are building and equipping hospitals, we are designing and building a new water system, we are attempting to assist the Iraqis in building a government where people have a say in their how they are governed, we are re-building the infrastructure of that country (even the ones we didn't break), we are fighting the oil fires tht THEY set.
Yet, when a very, very small group of people engage in what is basically an isolated incident (no other group of guards at the same prison did anything like that) people ask when we are going to show signs of civilization.
I have to agree that the reporting of this war HAS inhibited this country's capacity to reason. That is, IMHO, due to the fact that sensationalism sells and the poular media (most, but not all, of whom are Democratic Liberals) realize that telling a good story will NOT bring in the ratings as much as the bad... and people only know what they see and hear.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Aenimal
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37 posted 05-16-2004 07:08 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Here's what doesn't wash with me. First, calling them terrorists. I'm not condoning their actions, but consider for a moment that in their eyes they are a people attacked and occupied by a foreign nation. They're not terrorizing, but defending.  

Second, with regards to rebuilding, let's not be as naive to think it's solely a matter of goodwill and compassion, it's industry, with salivating countries and companies competing for contracts. Many of whom have Republican and specifically Bush family links.

Let's not forget that Iraq is also paying for the debt of reconstruction with, interestingly enough..oil. My favourite administration quote on the subject the jist of which was 'as Iraq doesn't have the funds repay the debt, out of goodwill we're allowing them to pay back with oil.'

Basically an isolated incident by soldiers at that prison? The abuse has been reported outside said prison and not solely in Iraq but Afghanistan. Also civilian abuse and rape have been reported.

And lastly, sensationalism by Liberal media? It's not a matter of Liberal versus republican, it's a matter of disgusting conduct.
Denise
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38 posted 05-16-2004 07:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

But the liberal spin comes into play, Raph, when they elevate these isolated disgusting incidences to an unwarrented level of priority in relation to the larger picture of all the good that is being done. They don't even pay lip service to the flip side of the coin. They aren't putting things in perspective, and it's purely for political reasons in an attempt to diminish the current administration in the eyes of the voting public.
Ringo
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39 posted 05-16-2004 09:43 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

If pushing someone with a rope around their neck is not a terrorist act, then I have a challenge figuring out what is. If killing women who are showing up to work for the IRAQI government is not terrorism, can you please tell me what is? What about attacking a civilian convoy with supplies for the health and well being of your fellow citizens is not terrorism, then I am stumped. The Iraqi soldiers that have not commited acts of terror have been released back into the world. Those that are left haev committed such acts of terrorism... that, by definition, makes them terrorists.

It is also naive to think that it is solely a matter of industry... although it does seem kind of self-serving that the three countries that screamed the loudest about us being there (and had illegal ties to the Hussein regime) are the first ones to put out a glad hand.

And what would you have them do to repay the debt? If it is THEIR country that we are re-building, then they should have a hand in the cost of such. And before anyone mentions us doing it out of the kindness of our hearts, the ONLY time that I can recall hearing about where a country was not required by the United States to pay back their war debt was WWI Germany, where all of the Allied Powers were demanding severe reparations and ther US offered to help them pay it.

Yes, it was disgusting behavior, however that brings up a question (as most statements do):
This was known about in the early part of this year... now, all of a sudden, when Kerry is gaining slightly on Bush in the polls, the scandal breaks, and everything else happens... perhaps it is pure coincidence, however it just seems a little strange... My opinion, though... and I don't try to share them with anyone.

To answer a few things that I noticed earlier in this thread...

Janet Marie... American military personnel have ALWAYS been held acountable for their own actions... regardless about what might be mentioned by some website, there WERE reprecussions in all of the cases that were listed on that link you placed. In Tailhook, there were 14 Admirals and almost 300 Navy and Marine aviator carrers completly ruined. In most cases, those involved were involuntarily separated, or were denied promotions that eventually ended their careers. Every officer who was up for a promotion board was asked if their CO or anyone in their chain of command was involved in the tailhook incident, those individuals were, in most cases denied promotion because they might have been tainted. This is not something I made up... it was reported on a PBS special about the incident.
With Aberdeen... according to the Colorado Springs Gazzette, six officers were court-martialed in that case.
Jet Magazine reported that Sgt Maj. McKinney was demoted, and removed from his position because of the conviction of the scandal. And while everyone is complaining about the "unfairness" of the trial, it took the jury 20 hours to come up with their verdicts and there were women on the panel. and it was the jury panel that decided the punishment. Not the President of the Court.
The military DOES hold it's people accountable for their actions. You might think that losing rank or being involuntarily separated is a nothing crime, however it is the ulitmate punishment for any officer. That is something that I do not expect civilian to understand, however the destruction of a career is the worst thing you can do to someone in the military.
Raph- you brought up the name My Lai, and I was honestly waiting for it to show its ugly head. Lt. Calley was put on trial, convicted and sent to life in prison, with a loss of all rank, pay and priveledges a full two months before the story made the papers. The reason the government "passed it off" on Lt. Calley is because he was the commanding officer that ordered the killings.
Goldenrose- The desire to have UN troops in Iraq was a spoken goal from the beginning of the fighting. This is not something new that the US has decided to use to make points with the public. It was being announced as early as April of last year.
As for your take that there should be no wars ever.. I would defy you to find a member of the military that doesn't agree with you 100%... ESPECIALLY the ones who have smelled the gun powder. An old Marine Corps recruiting slogan was:
No one wants to fight... Somebody has to know how. If the United States Marines, who ahve an historical reputation for being blood-thirsty killers don't want to fight... well, anyhow.

I understand that I am bringing up "old news" however, I wanted to present the "other truth" about these issues.
I also stand with Goldenrose in stating that this is the way I see things. I welcome anyone to their own views.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again...
http://www.cmlb.net/ringo

Ron
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40 posted 05-16-2004 10:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I don't understand how anyone can justify the unjustifiable.

Isolated incident? As if that somehow makes it better? Someone's daughter will be murdered on the street somewhere tonight, and that too is an isolated incident. It will remain isolated for most people until it happens to their daughter or wife or mother. Then it will hurt like hell.

People have been hurt, laws have been broken, and no matter how much irrelevant and meaningless sugar you sprinkle on top of dirt it's still dirt. I fervently pray the reprehensible can never be justified. Because if it is, we are all sorely lessened.
Aenimal
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41 posted 05-16-2004 11:47 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise what is unwarranted? Reporting the truth? This 'liberal' media is the same media who initially supported the administration war on terrorism and lynched many opposing voices early on, for example the railroading of Bill Maher. As for the 'good being done' that is thusfar debatable.

Ringo:

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons


If your going to label them terrorists then by definition the unlawful coalition offensive is in fact an act of terrorism. As is the abuse of both prisoners and civilians. The Iraqis themselves aren't attempting to intimidate society or their government, but occupying forces. They are militants attempting to defend their cause. Their means are no less deplorable and are crimes of humanity and war but not terrorist attacks.

quote:
It is also naive to think that it is solely a matter of industry


It would be naive indeed, but I never for a moment suggested it was. I simply said it was not solely a matter of compassion. Of course there is a compassionate element and many non-profit and religious groups are assisting.

quote:
And what would you have them do to repay the debt? If it is THEIR country that we are re-building


But why are they rebuilding? Because they've been devasted by a war and attack, one that was never asked for by the people of Iraq. It's like me cutting your hair in the middle of the night and then charging you for a styling. If they have to repay there will eventually be finances but it will take time.

quote:
American military personnel have ALWAYS been held acountable for their own actions... regardless about what might be mentioned by some website, there WERE reprecussions in all of the cases that were listed on that link you placed.


The only reason you're seeing such a swift and strong display of accountability is media coverage and damage control for PR. The attrocities JM posted, the My Lai incident, or statistics on the military's handling of spousal abuse, off and on base violence, will give you a better idea of how well, and just how long it takes before accountabilty takes place.

As for My Lai Ringo, read about Hugh Thompson's plight to do the right thing and how he was treated by that military and something the soldiers blowing the whistle on the Iraq abuses may have to face:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/06/60minutes/main615997.shtml

You make the accountability and punishment sound noble, but is it really when it's only after a cover-up uncovered that begrudged admissions are offered?

Thank God for the soldiers who did the right thing in not participating and reporting this and thank god for the media for making it public.

Ringo
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42 posted 05-17-2004 02:07 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I have been hearing about this "unlawful" or "illegal" coalition for over a year... mostly be people who are opposing the war, yet have not seen anyone offer to show proof that it was. If you can do so, I would be willing to check it out and more consider your viewpoint. It is very doubtful that it would change my thoughts on the situation, however I am willing to look at evidence on both sides.

Also, using your own definition, are these (and again I will say it) Terrorists not looking to coerce the people of the world and to intimidate the people they are opposing? Certainly be-heading a civilian is the use of violence by an organized group with the intention of intimidating the other civilians who are there (NONE of whom are in a combat capacity), and to coerce the American people to react against their government for the political reason of getting the Americans out of Iraq before the job is finished? No, it isn't THEIR society they are attempting to influence, but OURS.
Quite possibly the kidnapping of Japanese newspaper reporters and the threat of burning them alive to get the Japanese troops out falls into that line of thought.
Or how about killing Iraqi women who are lining up for work at a government office. Isn't that being done to intimidate the Iraqi people? By giving us a definition, you have proven my point.

As for the prisoners, the actions taken against them were not to intimidate or coerce a society, or a government for ideological or political reasons. If you believe that the guards acted alone without any orders from a higher authority, then it was a bunch of people being stupid and drunk with their own power having "fun" (and I use that term to show how stupid it is)... No political or ideological changes there.They hated us then, they hate us now.
If you believe, as the defendants would have you believe, that it was ordered from the chain of command to extract information, then- again- no ideological or political points to be made. Using your own definition, then, the acts against the prisoners, regardless of how tasteless and... well, I an not permitted to use the words that come to mind, however I am sure you get the idea... anyhow, those acts were not terrorism.

As for the Iraqis not asking for the war... The people of Finland, Hungary, and Romania did not want war during War II, however each was required to make good for $300,000,000 each to the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, it is part of the political "game" and the cost of war. Also, It has been reported that the Iraqis will be given up to 100 years to repay the war debt. Considering the ONLY country to have ever fully repaid their war debt to the US is Finland, from War One, I don't see that they will ever pay anything.

Again, with Lt. Calley: I have absolutely no clue as to how that fits into your statement about accountability occurring ONLY after the offence being uncovered, or about how "long" it takes before the military reacts to a situation. He was charged and sent to Court September of 69... the first news reporter sniffed out the assault on Son My (the villiage where the assault took place) in  November.
With the Prison "cover-up", the military sent a general (I don't recall his name at the moment, however he was the first Phillipino to make it to the rank of General) to the prison to check things out, and he was back in the United States with a full report that he gave to the Senate AND the House committees. A full scale investigation that allows for the type of detail that this general had for his testimony before both committees takes more than the few weeks between the media splashing it all over the airwaves and the legislative branch being able to get the papers together to have the hearings. He was "in-country" starting the investigation BEFORE the media got wind of it. It seems to me that the facts in these cases at least bear out my thoughts in this part of the discussion.
I will concede the article on Hugh Thompson due to the fact that my computer refuses to load the page, for some reason, and I am not going to debate a case when I am not able to see the case the opposition is presenting.
Also, I can tell you from experience (I was a material witness in a summary court) a court-martial takes just as long as a "regular" civilian trial to get together, and to allow each side to gather and form their respective cases. I was providing depositions and evidence to the lawyers a full three months before court in a simple motorcycle theft. The first court-martial is being held next week in the prison case. These Courts-martial were in motion before the media got wind of it.

Punishment and accountability is not noble, unless the accused cops to the crime and accepts whatever recourse without argument. The actions are not noble, only the fact that the accused knows he/she is guilty, and is willing to accept the responsibility for his/her actions. IN all of the cases discussed in this thread, from My Lai to Aberdeen, to Tailhook, to Iraq, NONE of the punishments, or accused being held accountable was noble, as they were forced to do so.

I will join you in your prayers for the soldiers who chose not to participate andwho chose to do what they could to end the abuse. As for the press, I feel that there are certain things that shuld not be reported, as they make it more difficult for the Americans who are left behind who are required to interact with the Iraqi citzens on a daily basis. It puts their lives at risk, because many of them are going to feel as many protesters at home do, that this is the norm of behavior rather than the very poor exception, and it puts American lives at risk... and there is nothing more going to happen that wasn't going to happen without it being reported.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again... http://www.cmlb.net/ringo
Goldenrose
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43 posted 05-17-2004 05:52 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

As i said in my post earlier...Hans Blix said that the war in Iraq was illegal...he said this because the SOLE reason for going to war in Iraq was because they have weapons of mass destruction.My country voted on weather to go to war in the first place based on the so called inteligence reports of weapons of mass destruction in iraq and the threat to the UK. Blair won that vote by a small margin so he comitted soldiers to Iraq and blindly followed Bush and co into war.Why is it now that the media over here are already gearing up for Blair's resignation?Because he knew that the war was illegal, because no weapons of mass destruction were found, so it totally negated going to war in the first place...there WAS no threat....that is what Blix had said all along..as the head of the UN weapons inspection team...he knew there was nothing there...THAT is why it was illegal..the coalition forces were using it as i pretence....just to get into the country in the first place. Now people in the UK are saying that if Balir is in charge at the next election over here he will LOSE..because of his refusal to stand up to Bush and tell him he was wrong.

One other thing that occurs to me is that if this torture situation was in reverse, how would american people react to the discusting behaviour by Iraqi's?...i think that most people can answer that question....do unto others as they do unto you...treat them with respect and gain the respect of the free world....at this point they have no honour or respect and they trawl genuine caring americans through the mire..that is the saddest thing...they have let all of you caring americans down.

But like i said all this would NEVER have happened if the soldiers were not sent in illegally...and i agree with Raph...on his terrorist stance too...

Maybe one day Britain and America will learn to just stay within their own borders..and not try to interfere with forein countries who dont need their help....

Peace and love to the world....

Have a great summer to all....

Goldenrose.

''There is no need for temples, no need for complicated Philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness''-  Dalai Lama

Aenimal
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44 posted 05-17-2004 09:28 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
I have been hearing about this "unlawful" or "illegal" coalition for over a year... mostly be people who are opposing the war, yet have not seen anyone offer to show proof that it was.


Well it's fairly obvious, the UN said don't attack, the coalition went against the UN. Illegal action.

quote:
Also, using your own definition, are these (and again I will say it) Terrorists not looking to coerce the people of the world and to intimidate the people they are opposing?


No, they're trying to defend and drive you out of their illegally occupied country by any means necessary. It's defense and a counterattack. Again i'm not condoning their actions but if you're going to define them as terrorists then apply the same label to the coalition. Either label it all acts of war or label it all acts of terrorism.

quote:
Using your own definition, then, the acts against the prisoners, regardless of how tasteless and... well, I an not permitted to use the words that come to mind, however I am sure you get the idea... anyhow, those acts were not terrorism.


You're in their country, trying to change their government, trying to bend their will to suit that purpose and your vision of what Iraq should be.

quote:
The people of Finland, Hungary, and Romania did not want war during War II, however each was required to make good for $300,000,000 each to the Soviet Union.


The Soviet Union was helping it's allies post war, it wasn't the cause of the damage, and those countries certainly owed a debt to the USSR. Now consider had Germany and it's allies, causing the damage in the attack and occupation, demanded a debt for rebuilding would you find that just?

As for the My Lai massacre, it occured on March 16, 1968. A year later Ronald Ridenhour, a former GI, composed a letter detailing the My Lai massacre and sent it to President Nixon, the Pentagon, the State Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and numerous members of Congress. It was only then, under pressure and fear of the story leaking, that the military launched an investigation. Over a year after the massacre. The investigation began in June and Calley was charged with offenses in September. ONLY after the story leaked to the US public did the Pentagon and the Army's Criminal Investigation Division launch a deeper investigation. Out of 25 officers and high ranking officials charged with murder, rape and cover up, ONLY Calley's charges stood. As for Calley he only served 4 years of a life sentence. Justice? Accountability? Hardly Ringo.
Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


45 posted 05-17-2004 02:41 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I don't know of one...not one case where Rumsfeld has tortured a single person?..I know that I've had as many as 80 people working for me, and God help anyone that would accuse me of being responsible for their "self decisive" antics....should I resign for what they took upon themselves to do?..Should I resign or be responsible for what their immediate supervisors instructed them to do?...A zillion miles away?..I think not...and if fact be known, we should do what Gen. Black Jack Pershing did and stop alot of this terrorism all together...furthermore, and don't take me wrong...what these idiots did was wrong, I have no doubt, why they've decided to make this one gal a publicized scapegoat I don't know, but I would not do anything that I knew to be inhumane unless it would save the lives of my fellow soldiers, and, I did much worse, not to captives, but to the enemy...and unless you've been there, you have no idea what it's like...the whole thing's a mess, and in my opinion, the worst is yet to come....and by the worst, in my opinion...not for the Iraqi prisoners that are captive, but for the poor Americans that are held captive because of this atrocity......
Ron
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46 posted 05-17-2004 07:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
...and unless you've been there, you have no idea what it's like

I've been there, Toe. And I know what it's like.

Sadly, I've also had to learn what it's like to see the things I fought to preserve cast aside.

Those who would "do anything" to save the lives of fellow soldiers mock over two hundred year's of sacrifice by those who refused to believe "anything" should be allowed. They believed the enemy could be defeated without first becoming the enemy. They offered their lives to that end, and if I could save one of them today, at the cost of my country's honor and humanity, I really don't think they would thank me.

Life is precious. But there are thousands upon thousands of dead warriors in our history who knew it isn't the most precious thing we risk in war.
Denise
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47 posted 05-17-2004 10:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Calling for things to be put in their proper perspective is not an attempt at justifying the unjustifiable, Ron. I am not justifying the prison incidences or attempting to diminish the gravity of them because they were isolated incidences.

What I am attempting to explain is that perspective is lacking in the media coverage and lacking in the rhetoric of the liberal politicians in light of the enormous good being done and good conduct of the vast majority of our armed forces, that does not make the headlines, and in light of the lack of moral outrage at far worse atrocities committed by the Islamists.

Raph, the mainstream media long ago abandoned reporting, sad to say. They do spin some fanciful yarns, though.

As for the U.N., it is not a governing authority over Sovereign nations, despite their posturing as such. They are not an elected body answerable to those they wish to govern (and tax) and not gaining their approval does not necessarily make something illegal. And how many of their voting membership were discovered to have had clandestine economic ties to Saddam and his regime? I suppose that didn't sway the outcome of their vote not to give their stamp of approval to the war? Perhaps they knew that war would destroy the "deal they had made with the devil". It sure explains why they did absolutely nothing for the previous 12 years, despite all the resolutions that they passed.

Goldenrose, WMD's have been found in Iraq. A stockpile of long rage missles and drones banned by the cease-fire agreement were found shortly after the war began, as well as test strains of biological material under the sink in the home of one of the scientists. Last week some Al Qaida were arrested in Jordan with large quantities of VX nerve gas, quantities too large to have been manufactured in Syria based on its current capabilities and it is therefore suspected that it was probably obtained in Syria after it had been transferred to Syria by Saddam just prior to the war, since the quantities are in keeping with Iraq's production capabilities at the time. And just today Sarin gas was discovered in an explosive device that went off in Iraq, as well as a stockpile of drums of mustard gas last week or the week before.

We don't have to have the situation reversed for us to know how we would feel about the prison humiliation situation. Far worse has already been done to coalition forces and civilians, like being burned and hanged, throat slashings and having heads sawn off. (Honestly, whose prisoner would you rather be if you were a prisoner of war?) Let's hear some outrage and moral indignation over these things against the perpetrators of those actions, at least as much as we are hearing over the prison mistreatments.

As terrible and unacceptable as the treatment of those in the prison situation, it pales in comparison to the atrocities suffered at the hands of the Islamists. Not something I'd categorize as an 'eye for an eye' scenario. If that were our mentality, we'd be burning, slashing, and sawing too.

And Opeth, in answer to your question in the deleted thread, I did hear Shawn Hannity talking about the discoveries of WMD's that had not been reported by the mainstream media.  
Aenimal
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since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


48 posted 05-17-2004 11:27 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise:

quote:
Raph, the mainstream media long ago abandoned reporting, sad to say. They do spin some fanciful yarns, though


No doubt, but a mainstream 'liberal' slant was mentioned, as if there isn't a mainstream conservative voice equally slanted that supports Bush.

With regards to the UN, when it served you and checked other nations from expansion and war it was a great institution. The moment it disagreed with coalition plans for attack, it was a failure and undermined. Before speaking of deals with the devil, look into the Bush families ties with the Bin Laden family or their ties that have profited from this war.

As for WMDs they found plans. Drones were found but there were no stockpiles of long range missles but "Plans and advanced design work" for them. Plants suitable for their construction, fuel propellent and chemical agents were also found but while they are, no doubt, failures to comply with UN resolutions, there have been no actual weapons of mass destruction. Nothing found that would pose the significant and immediate threat to the US or it's allies, that the administration pushed to start the war.

This discovery, incidentely, is were some of my favourite spin doctoring took place. Where Bush announced that it was weapons plans not weapons the US had always been after. Beautifully Orwellian.

quote:
As terrible and unacceptable as the treatment of those in the prison situation, it pales in comparison to the atrocities suffered at the hands of the Islamists. Not something I'd categorize as an 'eye for an eye' scenario. If that were our mentality, we'd be burning, slashing, and sawing too.


Except that the atrocities were not limited to the prison(example the helicopter crew firing on wounded men another Geneva violation) and unto civilians as well.
Ron
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Michigan, US


49 posted 05-17-2004 11:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Calling for things to be put in their proper perspective is not an attempt at justifying the unjustifiable, Ron. I am not justifying the prison incidences or attempting to diminish the gravity of them because they were isolated incidences.

Denise, you're stirring in large dollops of completely irrelevant sugar in hopes it will mask the taste of the medicine. Trouble is, this particular medicine loses its potency when made to taste palatable. If it doesn't leave a vile, bitter, burning taste in your mouth, the sickness will only spread.

quote:
Far worse has already been done to coalition forces and civilians, like being burned and hanged, throat slashings and having heads sawn off.

You've missed the point entirely, Denise.

The victims of this aren't just those immediately humiliated and hurt, and we shouldn't need to pity them to express outrage at the atrocity. How many Germans do you think justified their treatment of Jews with similar arguments? How many Americans do you think died so that would end? Those responsible here didn't just hurt a few foreigners. They have snubbed their collective noses at every person who ever wore an American uniform and spit in the face of every mother and father who proudly watched their son or daughter stand in defense of our country.

Far worse has been done? Don't kid yourself, Denise. The worst pain can only come from those you loved and trusted.
 
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