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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


300 posted 07-10-2004 10:02 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
If the conservatives bring this up though they have to recant on all the accusations they made about Clinton just trying to throw the headlines off the Grand Jury testimony that was occuring the same day.


Why not? Maybe it is time to relook at the Clinton administration with slightly more knee-jerk reaction than, "Clintion did it, it was wrong."

quote:
If liberals bring this up they have to ceed that Saddam was actually pursuing WMD's.


Again, why not? Who ever actually denied that Hussein didn't want WMD's?

By the way: the five permanent members of the UN Security council are the US, the UK, France, Russia, and China -- these countries all have veto power, the rest of the group changes over time.

The current UN corruption scandal has nothing to do with the governments of these five countries. They have to do with the administration of the UN (Kofi Annan etc.)
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


301 posted 07-10-2004 10:11 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Sometimes helping is a double edged sword. You can help and help, give and lose blood.  Die, just to make the world a beter place. Because of the differences poeple want to find reasons to hate. when ever my friends who are more libral than me always bring up handing it over to the UN.  I always bring up Sudan.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
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the ass-end of space


302 posted 07-11-2004 03:57 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Does anyone ever discuss the positives...apparently not


This thread has been, for the most part, devoted to questionable US administration policies. I've never denied there are postives, and if you'd like to begin a thread and list the good I could add to it. I've simply kept on topic, stating that there have been questionable choices made by administrations, past and present, that have lead to some of the problems in foreign relations. Denise also mentioned "the folks who were lining their pockets with Saddam's money" and I offered evidence to show that, while not presently, the US should be included under that heading.

quote:
You should know that our intentions are honorable...and yet you speak as if we are the criminals at times...Your words drip disgust, whether you realize it or not....


The disgust is directed not at American's, whatever you choose to believe, but at ignorance and blind devotion. Patriotism and ideals are a beautiful thing, but in some cases extremely dangerous and negative. Questioning a governments actions and ethics is essential in a democracy, otherwise we're simply puppets to their policies. There are vast resources available to us and it's important we use them and in using them one finds some disturbing actions.

The examples I've used are not to undermine but educate Mike. I've never asserted that the ALL US policies are dishonourable, but that instances are highly questionable and ethically unsound.

For example, in 1954 Jacobo Arbenz, a well liked and democratically elected leader of Guatemala was ousted from power in a coup by Col. Carlos C. Armas. Declassified documents reveal the coup was staged by the CIA, under Truman's orders, to protect business interests including the United Fruit Company(chiquita banana). The UFC, was upset with land reforms, which expropriated unused land and given back to the poor of Guatemala to farm. UFC would not accept the compensation offered and pressured the government to act. The CIA trained and armed mercenaries to carry out a coup under US air support. Col. Armas, who was trained at Fort Leavenworth, was installed and immediately eliminated all taxes on interest and dividends to foreign investors giving US businesses, incredible profit and control over the entire region.

I'm hard pressed to find any justifiable or honourable intention there. AGAIN, I'm not saying ALL US policy but giving an example of US interference and how it can lead to resentment. Earlier I used the example of trade with a gas weilding Saddam because I found it hypocritcal that under the heading of 'US ally' his actions are justifiable, but as an enemy a name compared with the evil of Hitler.

Other policies have led to unrest and ultimately war, for example the Viet Minh, once US allies, were turned on and became the enemy leading to the Vietnam War.

quote:
The simple fact they they will not broadcast conservative stations, like Fox, is a clear indication of that.


We do have FOX stations, as well as CNN( who offer many conservative views) and other news outlets. There are also local conservative stations so I'm not sure what you mean.

quote:
Canadians have turned anti-American


Canadians haven't turned Anti-American but admittedly relations have cooled since Bush took over. The link between Americans and Canadians was never greater than on 9/11. We were quick to offer assistance, take detoured americans into our homes/communities until flights were re-established, and we sent our best troops and elite snipers to the campaign in Afghanistan.

But things took a turn for the worse and many Canadians felt slighted when suddenly our borders were blamed, every nation but ours was thanked in that key Bush speech after the attacks, and our refusal to join the coalition led to the lable of cowards and pacifists in political forums and articles. You know, we were even blamed without hesitation for the Great Blackout until it was revealed otherwise.

Is it Anti-American sentiment? NO. Is there some resentment? Yes, this happens with siblings. Now if I were truly Anti-American why would I bother convincing people to vote against Bush? What would the election matter to me if I thought all American administrations and people were the same? And why would I do this in a predominately American forum amongst American friends? I've simply tried to educate, offer historical background and expose hypocrisies and for this I'm unfairly labeled Anti-American.
Brad
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Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


303 posted 07-11-2004 05:17 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Canadians haven't turned Anti-American but admittedly relations have cooled since Bush took over. The link between Americans and Canadians was never greater than on 9/11. We were quick to offer assistance, take detoured americans into our homes/communities until flights were re-established, and we sent our best troops and elite snipers to the campaign in Afghanistan.


I think this is important to remember.

What happened?

Do you cultivate good will or do you slap it in the face?

If it's the latter, can someone please explain why?
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


304 posted 07-11-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Brad.. obviously I agree to both 'why not's' or I wouldn't have brought it up.. I'm always ready to analyze.

The reason why the C's and L's won't is because this election year is about appealing to base.  The Republicans don't want to offend the conservative base that claimed everything from Clinton was a murderer (Vince Foster, all political enemies et al via Arkansas mysterious death list) to a traitor (Sandia National Laboratories).

And of course the Democrats don't want to loose the Moore vote.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


305 posted 07-11-2004 09:57 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

F, oops sorry, we don't need the Moore vote.

Not anymore.

I apologize to those who believe I have plaigarized Dick Cheney.
Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


306 posted 07-11-2004 09:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Raph, for your info...

"Fox News Channel is banned in Canada by the left-wing zealots and Liberal government appointees who regulate what Canadians are allowed to watch using one of their favorite political tools, the state-run "CRTC" (which stands for the very typically Liberal government bureaucratic-sounding "Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission"). The CRTC is stacked with liberals. Duh. Most of the Canadian political institutions that control Canadian lives -- what they see, how they think, how they're taught -- are stacked by liberals.

It may come as a surprise to Canadians that the TV they watch is only what the CRTC decides they will watch. It is not a free market. It is a fully state-regulated market. Unelected Canadian government bureaucrats decide what the people will see on TV, and what they will not be allowed to see.

In response to their customers' demands, cable operators in Canada have tried unsuccessfully to be "allowed" to offer Fox News Channel to subscribers for a fee. But they have been refused. Cable companies cannot satisfy their customers' demand even by offering it to them for a fee.

Again this week, as they have done unsuccessfully before, Canadian cable TV companies have filed an application with the CRTC to carry Fox News Channel, citing a growing demand from customers. Again the liberals will forbid it.

Fox News Channel is seen by the left-wing liberals in the CRTC as "right-wing", and therefore a threat to the hitherto successful Liberal Party commercial otherwise known as the state-run taxpayer-funded media giant CBC, which regularly churns out pro-liberal, anti-American rhetoric, sometimes subtly, sometimes not. The hacks and Liberal Party supporters in the CRTC and the CBC feel threatened by conservative-thinking Canadians because they feel their jobs would be on the line if Canadians voted with common sense for a party that didn't believe quite so much in social engineering.

CNN, the Cable News Network founded by Ted Turner who was formerly married to Jane Fonda the militant feminist and extreme left-wing liberal heroine, is decidedly not right-wing but is perfectly acceptable, as is BBC news, which is decidedly not right-wing to put it mildly. The CBC is left-wing to put it even more mildly. To put it less mildly, it is a left-wing joke. But because Fox News Channel is right-wing to their way of thinking (to my way of thinking it's just "normal"), Fox News Channel is banned in Canada."

This is an article printed on the "Proud to be a Canadian" written by Joel Johannesen, born in West Vancouver, raised in Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada. Went to Langara College and University of Victoria (economics). Worked as a stockbroker and in other areas of the financial industry until a few years ago, then for a tourism/transportation business.

So, if you're watching Fox news in Canada, you must be the only one
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


307 posted 07-11-2004 11:51 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

LOL Proud to be Canadian!? You know, for someone who's quick to point out the bias in some of the articles I've produced you couldn have picked a better source. The Proud To Be Canadian site is ultra right propaganda. Who like conservatives in the States, believe ALL media outlets are too liberal and out to get conservatives.

Sample article: http://www.proudtobecanadian.ca/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=751

jeeezus

But you're right, while we have FOX channels we don't carry FOX NEWS, but many of us have satellites in Toronto so I honestly forget which channels are featured on regular cable. I've watched FOX NEWS and quite frankly can't stomach most of it, particularly blowhard Bill O'Reilly, shivers..But I can't defend the CRTC's decision not to allow the channel through, nor can I defend the obvious liberal, or rather Socialist leaning of the CBC. (I just watch it for Hockey Night In Canada and the occasional documentary for the most part)

It's false, however, to assume that there are no conservative voices in Canada, on TV or in print. The National Post and especially the Regional SUN papers are ridiculously right. And while there are no 'strictly' conservative stations, conservative, socialist and liberal voices are all heard on a variety of news forums and discussion programs.

You should also consider that while the Federal government is Liberal, Conservatives have done well regionally. You'll be surprised to know that I was upset with the ousting of the Conservative government here in Ontario. in fact the bumbling Liberal government here seriously threatened Paul Martin's bid in the Federal election.

As for CNN being liberal? I doubt it. Oh I know Fonda's leaning's but to assume ultra capitalist Turner's channel is left is absurd. Robert Novak or Tucker Carlson's ring a bell? My god, Carlson's has caused a permanent phobia of bowties.
*If we could go back to my last response though, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Guatemala affair, I'm not focusing on negatives but I'd honestly like to hear your take on that coup. Was there honourable intent there?

(I'd ask for an retraction or apology for calling me Anti-American but despite what I've said I'm sure you still believe me to be so what's the point right? And you wonder why I respond to you the way I do)

Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


308 posted 07-12-2004 12:31 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

(rolls eyes)

Aenimal I asumed you were playing the devils advicate. I was just providing arguments.


Actually Aenimal As a conservative i don't believe that.

Cnn- actually depends they are pretty good at showing both sides of argument.
Wcco- Librel
Fox-conservative....depending on the station. the cabel one is conservative. channel 9/ 29 for me are in the midlebut still lean libril

Kare 11
way libral

Editors of news papers.... depends on the news paper, but in news papers like the star they are slightly conservative, wile reporters lean left.

I think that it evens out if you read a range of stuff. For some reason some have a distaste for bush, but I read stuff thats bothe libril and conservative.

Lots of love Juju
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


309 posted 07-12-2004 12:48 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Actually Aenimal As a conservative i don't believe that.


Sorry you don't believe what? And what are you rolling your eyes at I'm confused?
Balladeer
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Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


310 posted 07-12-2004 11:23 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

but to assume ultra capitalist Turner's channel is left is absurd

That one I have to smile at. One could say the same for millionaire Michael Moore. He stood up and said "I've always considered capitalism the most despicable form of government". - and Hollywood multi-millionaires applauded! Perhaps the applause would stop if the Socialist government he advocates took a few Rolls-Royces out of their mansion's garages. Incredibly, being rich does not make one conservative and, for the life of me, I can't tell you why....

Ok, as far as Guatemala is concerned, I will concede my ignorance to you. It was not something I was acutely aware of, having been 9 years old at the time. I am certainly aware, however, that there have been many such things in American history I would not feel proud of as an American. We can go all the way back to the Indians, if you wish. I'm not proud of the Bay of Pigs, nor am I proud of the way we deserted the Kurds, after assuring them our support and then watching them get slaughtered. Can I make any excuses for my government's actions concerning these examples? Nope. Politics, especially world politics, seem to me to be a much murkier world than I can visualize. It seemd to be at time aligning oneself with "strange bedfellows", indeed. You can look at the upper echelon of the UN to know that, where countries run by dictators, thieves, and murderers occupy high positions in an organization dedicated, supposedly, to peace and world good. If world politics were straight-forward there would not be millions dying in the Sudan by Moslem genocide tactics, there would have been no Hussein or Milosovic, or North Korea. Ok, I'm rambling and you may think I'm trying to change the subject or make excuses. I'm not. I acknowledge that there ae many things in American's past that would wilt under scrutiny. My complaint with you is this - you claim that the world looks down with disdain on the US due to its past actions. You obviously looked up or studied the Guatemala situation, unless you were an adult going through it at the time. How many people around this world that looks down have done that? If I stop people on the street in France, Canada, Germany, Russia, or any number of countries and ask them their opinion of the US actions in Guatemala in 1954, how many of them do you think would be able to answer me? Yet these are the people you state have come to distrust the United States. No, Raph, it's not our past actions that have caused this disdain you claim exists (and certainly does to a degree). It is what they are being force-fed by their governments, France, Germany and Russia for reasons that are becoming more visible and a UN that has been shown to be obsolete and innefectual. Canada? Well, fortunately a large majority of Canadians are very intelligent people who have great knowledge of the US and our integrity. Why so much anti-American rhetoric? I don't know if it's a Quebec - and therefore French - influence or what but it's sad to see.

I'll apologize for calling you anti-American, if you like. It's just that comments you make    do not stop with the current administration. You go back to, well, Guatemala, Viet Nam and who knows where else to come up with examples of why the US is so despised, which, by inference, indicates you are one of the despisers. You list policies and examples that go way back and you speak of how the world views us in such a bad light and how we probably deserve it. If you don't understand how someone reading your past comments could consider you anti-American and not only anti- Bush then I guess there's not much more than I can say.

Peace
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


311 posted 07-12-2004 01:26 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
That one I have to smile at. One could say the same for millionaire Michael Moore.


And I'd agree, I said earlier that Moore is in danger of becoming the very things he hates. And the more one reads about him the more evident this becomes. I've also said his style of reporting is propaganda, but an intelligent person should be able to sift through and find the important information.

quote:
My complaint with you is this - you claim that the world looks down with disdain on the US due to its past actions. You obviously looked up or studied the Guatemala situation, unless you were an adult going through it at the time. How many people around this world that looks down have done that?


NO, what I said was that parts of the world look down on some of their Foreign POLICIES, not on America itself.

quote:
If I stop people on the street in France, Canada, Germany, Russia, or any number of countries and ask them their opinion of the US actions in Guatemala in 1954, how many of them do you think would be able to answer me?


You've missing the point. Ask a Guatemalan about the Guatemalan coup. Or ask the Vietnamese about involvement in Vietnam. My point was that certain countries have been affected by American policies and interference and it's that this has caused problems in THOSE countries. I simply used Guatemala as an example to prove a point. Not all intentions are honourable.

quote:
No, Raph, it's not our past actions that have caused this disdain you claim exists (and certainly does to a degree). It is what they are being force-fed by their governments, France, Germany and Russia for reasons that are becoming more visible and a UN that has been shown to be obsolete and innefectual. Canada?


Russia is a horrible example considering the the propaganda we were fed about the USSR during the Cold War. But it's silly to say 'the whole world is against us', rivalries and sterotypes will always exist. The English take potshots at the French and vice versa. Many Russians still harbour ill will towards the Germans. This is nothing new and don't tell me it doesn't work both ways. Freedom Fries? You know, my company lost business the first year of the war, want to know why? One of our distributors in the US said he didn't want to by Canadian product because they refused to help in Iraq. lol

quote:
I'll apologize for calling you anti-American, if you like. It's just that comments you make    do not stop with the current administration. You go back to, well, Guatemala, Viet Nam and who knows where else to come up with examples of why the US is so despised, which, by inference, indicates you are one of the despisers.


That inference is false. It all begins with Denise's statement "International respect? What's that? Respect from the folks who were lining their pockets with Saddam's money while mouthing empty threats at him for show? How many lives are they responsible for? How many bodies did they find in that one mass grave, 30,000?" which is hypocritical considering American involvement in Iraq, which is why I offered a history lesson on the former administration's relationship with Saddam and why we're where we're at. And the reason I mentioned Vietnam and Afghanistan is because they were similarly allies who became enemies.

quote:
You list policies and examples that go way back and you speak of how the world views us in such a bad light and how we probably deserve it. If you don't understand how someone reading your past comments could consider you anti-American and not only anti-Bush then I guess there's not much more than I can say.



I simply used examples to show why the US has had problems in certain regions. The average person doesn't look into history and rather than simply swallow what the government tells them in wartime, members of a true democracy have to work to question and hold accountable their governments.

Now, I don't see you calling me Anti-British or Anti-French though I've repeated that French and British empires are guilty of the same. I also stated that there are instances where Canadian policies at home and abroad have disgusted me(especially actions in Somalia) so lets add the label Anti-Canadian as well.

I've also stated that not ALL US history campaigns dishonourable. You don't realize that I'm a history buff and I know full well and thank heaven for Americans entering the war against Fascism. The points I've made were counter-points to battle ignorance of the past and how it effects the present. And to show that without questioning and rethinking policies past and present, the same mistakes will happen again and again.


Here's the main point and it's as Pro-American as one could offer: Don't vote Bush!
Why? Because rather than furthering American/Foreign relationships, he's jeopardized them. Because rather than creating new strategies in diplomacy he's chosen, and profited from, the war machine (with Iraq).


If you want to call be anti-administration or anti-war machine by all means. You could even call me anti-establishment as i can find a billion faults in all governments. But NOT Anti-American. If i was Anti-American I wouldn't care, but I do and I hate to see people and friends in here being misled and dying for a questionable cause and questionable tactics.


Yours sincerely,

Auntie Ig Norance

Vote Kerry! STEM CELL RESEARCH!!
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


312 posted 07-12-2004 11:23 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

sorry I thought I quoted it. I was taking about you saying that all conservatives say that broadcasting was too libril.

bye

 
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