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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Aenimal
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250 posted 06-30-2004 08:50 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
If Bush did nothing in response to 9/11, would you then criticize his not acting?


Can we stop confusing the attack on Iraq with 9/11? And/or using them in the same sentence? This bit of administration propaganda falls off the tongue of far too many people. All supposed links between Iraq and Al Queda have been dismissed by US and foreign intelligence, the 9/11 commission and a myriad of analysts. The 'Czech connection' dangled by the administration as evidence has long since been discredited. Bush 'acted' when he attacked terrorist cells in Afghanistan. But rather than continue with a true war on terror, shifted focus and lulled a vulnerable American public into believing their agenda in Iraq was justified.

Brad
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251 posted 07-01-2004 09:36 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Jim,

How much money was spent on the position you support?


jbouder
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252 posted 07-01-2004 01:37 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

How much money has been wasted on ineffective programming delivered without any accountability system for results?  At The Vista School, we do far more with fewer dollars than our public counterparts.  We're essentially delivering twice the product for the same price.  This tells me there are far better ways to spend the money that has already been appropriated. So if a bunch of "ignorant" parents can figure out how to build a better, cheaper widget, why should we expect any less from the education experts?

And, actually, spending on education is up.

My problem is not so much with the Administration as it is with the Republican controlled House.  Those guys are in serious need of a clue.

Jim
Juju
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253 posted 07-01-2004 06:17 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

You shoudn't generalize the republican party. There is a split among the conservatives. As a Conservative republican I kinda know this. But hey, When I look at all of the democratic politians that swing so far to the left it makes europeans look conservative it makes me shake my head. I don't think President bush is a bad president. When I look at his accomplishments it makes me want to vote for him again.

Any ways There are several connections Between saddams regeme and terrorist organizations. There has been books written about it. about the CIA ......  It, along with many of the buerocracies, need to be more organized. Right now they are carefull to confirm on any thing.

I also want to mention we dissimated al qeuda, many of the top guys are captured. The terrists now are independent ones that are loosly connected to higher up poeple.

Just my opinion...
Aenimal
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254 posted 07-01-2004 10:11 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
You shoudn't generalize the republican party.


I haven't, I've been pretty clear the problems lie within the Bush administration.

quote:
I don't think President bush is a bad president. When I look at his accomplishments it makes me want to vote for him again.


I strongly urge you to reconsider, read the facts concerning his 'accomplishments' at http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/archive.asp?more=true

quote:
Any ways There are several connections Between saddams regeme and terrorist organizations


Juju, terrorist organizations yes, a link between Saddam, Al Qaida and 9/11? No. To lure support, the administration used the allegation that Hussein had supported Osama bin Laden and the possibility that Iraq might supply Al-Qaida with weapons of mass destruction. These have proved false according to the 9/11 commission, US and  foreign intelligence.

Firstly, Mohammed Atta(ringleader of the 9/11 hijakings), was supposed to have met with an Iraqi intelligence official in the Czech Republic. But Czech intelligence later recanted, and U.S. intelligence officials believe that Atta was in the US at the time of the supposed meeting.

Secondly, al-Zakawi, whose name the administration keeps throwing about as the ultimate, is not a member of al-Quida but a rival terrorist group with different ambitions. Absolutely no links have been determined between al-Zakawi and Saddam either. The main 'evidence' cited by the administration was that al-Zakawi made a call from Iraq but as one official stated "When we found out there was an al-Qaida cell operating in Germany, we didn't say 'we have to invade Germany, because the German government supports al-Qaida."

There too many administration myths that have been discounted but are unfortunately confused as solid evidence by the public. It's absolute madness.
Brad
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255 posted 07-02-2004 06:02 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
My problem is not so much with the Administration as it is with the Republican controlled House.  Those guys are in serious need of a clue.


Fair enough. I tend to conflate the two believing that Bush is running a tight ship. This is not a unique strategy. When Carter recognized China, Congress passed a resolution continuing to support Taiwan -- this is not a contradiction but a proper response to a complex situation.

So, I see the two in tacit agreement on Education. Bush is allowed exuberant rhetoric, but the real republican strategy is to ignore it.

Off topic (again): the key to any successful education strategy is involved parents. I think we discussed this before. Parents shouldn't protest what is being taught, but spend the time and get involved in the process of how it is being taught.

It's a win/win situation.

But that's another thread.
Aenimal
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256 posted 07-04-2004 12:03 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Bush already re-elected?
http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd09262003.html

admittedly a little leftist and conspiracy minded........still

Balladeer
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257 posted 07-04-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

to post links intentionally leading to pages you acknowledge are slanted and biased makes little sense, in my opinion, Raph.
Aenimal
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258 posted 07-04-2004 03:57 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Deer, as a Non-partisan reader I'm able to detect and acknowledge that the tone of the article is leftist. I'm also able to recognize there are important facts contained in the article, and so I've offered the article, with disclaimer, so that others might do the same: read through the slant and get the relevant information.

What makes less sense, in my opinion Deer, is the Right's inability, in this thread, to allow even the slightest concession against the administration. After outright ignoring all damning evidence (including direct administration quotes, US/Foreign intelligence and 9/11 commission findings) I don't apologize for a slightly leftist view, especially when i've acknowledged it as such.
Ron
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259 posted 07-04-2004 06:45 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
to post links intentionally leading to pages you acknowledge are slanted and biased makes little sense, in my opinion, Raph.

LOL. As opposed to posting links you refuse to acknowledge as slanted and biased, Mike?

Face it. The only thing available are opinions that are slanted and biased, opinions that are more slanted and biased, and opinions that are ridiculously slanted and biased. And that's okay as long as all slanted and biased voices have a chance to be heard. The only real danger is when people refuse to think for themselves.
Balladeer
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260 posted 07-04-2004 06:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Right, Ron....and are people thinking for themselves when they simply post opinions of others?

Your LOL's are always prompt, Ron, but responses to questions I ask seem to take a lot longer, if at all. In any case, it's always good to see you....Happy 4th!!
Aenimal
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261 posted 07-04-2004 10:21 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
....and are people thinking for themselves when they simply post opinions of others?


I sincerely hope you're not alluding to me Deer, because the article is simply a starting point. I've never hidden my own opinion, and if i've offered any articles, it's because the facts contained within should spur people to learn more about it, whether to confirm or discredit them.

Glass Houses. While you're chastising my choice of links, or Ron's tardiness(alluding that he is deflecting), you may want to consider your own delays and failures to acknowledge topics I've brought forward in this thread. This includes evidence that clearly shows the administration, through Powell, lying with regards to information on Iraq or that while you've criticized me for joking about Bush, you failed to do the same for those making fun of Clinton.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (07-04-2004 11:02 PM).]

Ron
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262 posted 07-04-2004 11:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What questions haven't I answered, Mike?
Not A Poet
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263 posted 07-04-2004 11:52 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Not having seen the information that Powell and the administration had, I am not qualified to state as fact whether he lied or not. I feel pretty sure you don't have access either.  You would be more credible if you qualified such rash statements and accusations as "your personal opinion."

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Balladeer
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264 posted 07-04-2004 11:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I was referring, for example, to the direct question I asked you about the "self-destructive" tendencies on the 22nd. After a little prod, you answered on the 29th. I opined what would you do to a criminal who had your daughter in a situation where she would die if you didn't get information to save her life from him - with regards to your beliefs in his 8th amendment rights - this was a comparison to the soldier who only scared a prisoner to get the same kind of info and was castigated for it. No response...

There were others in other threads but it would sound like nitpicking looking them up and listing them and I don't mean it as a personal attack, of course. Just strikes me as a little curious the number of times I've made a comment to someone and found your response appear almost immediately with an adverse remarks. Oh, well, as grandma used to say "I wouldn't be paranoid if everybody didn't hate me."

As far as your last comments here, in another thread you said "I hardly think a self-serving blurb on a web site, even one reported by Reuters, is going to convince anyone of anything. Except, of course, those who are already convinced and just want an illusion of vindication."

My comment that warranted the LOL was exactly about those same self-serving blurbs..
Balladeer
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265 posted 07-04-2004 11:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

admittedly a little leftist and conspiracy minded

Aenimal, I didn't chastize your choice of links..you did.

As far as what I say directly to Ron, I'm saying it to Ron, not you..
Local Rebel
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266 posted 07-05-2004 12:00 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I don't think education spending is a genuine vulnerability to the Bush camp Brad.  The real numbers are that it is up 58%.  
http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=162

Where there may be a point of contention is that the Congress hasn't actually funded 'No Child Left Behind'.

So if someone is a single issue voter -- they might go with Bush on this one.  Unless of course Kerry is planning even larger increases.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
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267 posted 07-05-2004 01:24 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Aenimal, I didn't chastize your choice of links..you did.


I didn't chastize the link, not surprisingly you've again missed and/or ignored the explanation. I merely pointed out it's flaws while still allowing for 'rational' and intelligent readers to pick up on the valid and frightening information contained within.

quote:
As far as what I say directly to Ron, I'm saying it to Ron, not you..


LOL fine, it still doesn't change that you've ignored the examples I've given where I've directly questioned you. Ah, classic D.
Aenimal
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268 posted 07-05-2004 01:29 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Hey Not A Poet?

quote:
Not having seen the information that Powell and the administration had, I am not qualified to state as fact whether he lied or not. I feel pretty sure you don't have access either.  You would be more credible if you qualified such rash statements and accusations as "your personal opinion."



Regarding Powell it wasn't a matter of opinion but of fact. Powell himself has since apologized for it and the information I offered to support my claim included direct quoting from the administration and information from their presentation to the UN. It's all quite frankly public knowledge now it's just a matter of getting partisans to recognize it.

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000963-8.html#180  

quote:
You would be more credible if you qualified such rash statements and accusations as "your personal opinion."


Likewise. Had you read the evidence I'd offered in my numerous replies to the thread before you declared your personal opinion concerning my 'rashness' and credibility?
Ron
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269 posted 07-05-2004 06:30 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Well, I was referring, for example, to the direct question I asked you about the "self-destructive" tendencies on the 22nd. After a little prod, you answered on the 29th. I opined what would you do to a criminal who had your daughter in a situation where she would die if you didn't get information to save her life from him - with regards to your beliefs in his 8th amendment rights - this was a comparison to the soldier who only scared a prisoner to get the same kind of info and was castigated for it. No response...

I actually would have continued to ignore your self-destructive tendencies question, Mike, had you not prodded me. I will often do that when (a) the question presupposes I said something I didn't say, or (b) I take the question as a rhetorical one because any answer is going to be an obvious answer.

The self-destructive tendencies question falls under the first circumstance. You asked me to support or clarify opinions that I didn't express. When someone asks me if I stopped beating my wife yet, I assume they don't really want an answer.

Your question about my daughter falls under rhetoric because, obviously, I would slowly cut off his testicles to get the necessary information to save someone I love. Due process be damned. I will NOT, however, grant that same privilege to anyone else lest some paranoid and possibly deranged parent started looked suspiciously at my crotch and muttering "Ve have vays to make you talk!" Indeed, your question can be just as easily phrased, "What would you do if I thought you were a criminal with information that would save my daughter?" The only reason Law exists at all, Mike, is because we can't always trust each other to do what is right when situations become too personal.
Juju
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270 posted 07-05-2004 06:43 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Actually alot of terrorest groups are rival.
But He suppossedly had connections with people who had connections, but on another point. It's the war on terrism, not the war on Bin Ladin or al Kada, like the media clames. Bush declared it on all terrism.

Juju
Aenimal
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271 posted 07-05-2004 09:44 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Juju

quote:
But He suppossedly had connections with people who had connections


Not making fun of you but this comment reminded me of an appropriate scene from Mel Brook's Spaceballs:

Dark Helmet: Before you die, there is something you should know about us, Lone Starr.
Lone Starr: What?
Dark Helmet: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former room-mate.
Lone Starr: What's that make us?
Dark Helmet: Absolutely nothing

Supposedly is the correct choice of words. Those 'connections', as i mentioned earlier, have already been discredited by US intelligence, foreign Intelligence, analysts and the 9/11 commission. Not to mention there are agenda and religious differences between the groups.

It's absolutely alarming that, despite the fact that ties brought forward as evidence by the administration have been discredited, a large percentage of the population are still clinging to this belief.

And once again, if it were a true war on terrorism there are far more credible targets.
Denise
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272 posted 07-05-2004 10:53 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

To my knowledge the terrorist connections have not been discredited, Raph. Or do you mean only as far as Saddam being linked with the terrorists in the planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks? Because that's the only issue that the 9/11 Commission addressed.

As far as the varying terrorist organizations having different agendas and religions, etc., they still do have something in common, a hatred of Western civilization in general, and Israel and the U.S. in particular.

All terrorists and terrorist harboring countries are credible targets in a war on terrorism.
Local Rebel
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273 posted 07-05-2004 11:10 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well that's where the problem gets a little bit sticky for the left and the right.  Way back in -- let's see -- no time for research right now -- but let's just say it was 98.  Clinton lobs a few Tomahawks at an 'asprin' factory.  Intel said it was producing chemical weapons.  (Which it just so happens it was.)  This was a confirmed joint operation between Iraq and OBL.  

If the conservatives bring this up though they have to recant on all the accusations they made about Clinton just trying to throw the headlines off the Grand Jury testimony that was occuring the same day.

If liberals bring this up they have to ceed that Saddam was actually pursuing WMD's.

The rest of the intel shows that in general there was no collaberative relationship between the two -- apparently for this one particular operation they could set ideological differences aside for joint profit.

As 'anonymous' as pointed out though -- Iraq is the biggest magnet for terrorists NOW in the Middle East.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
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274 posted 07-06-2004 12:39 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise yes, the 9/11 terror links to Saddam the administration used have been discredited by the 9/11 commission.

But also, the linking of Al-Zakawi/to Saddam and/or Al Quada has been dismissed by both American and foreign intelligence.

quote:
...they still do have something in common, a hatred of Western civilization in general, and Israel and the U.S. in particular


Don't get me wrong Denise, that's a valid point and strong motive, but doesn't mean they will, or have joined.

quote:
All terrorists and terrorist harboring countries are credible targets in a war on terrorism.


No, it's simply a convenient excuse used to deflect concerns that the obvious and viable target of Saudi Arabia is being ignored. And why it is.
 
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