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Passions in Poetry

Does anybody take responsibility anymore?

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Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


225 posted 06-25-2004 04:58 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Mr. David Frost: So what in a sense you're saying is that there are certain situations ... where the President can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation or something, and do something illegal.

Mr. Nixon:  Well, when the President does it, that means it is not illegal.

Mr. Frost: By definition.

Mr. Nixon: Exactly.  ...


The distinction is a simple one. If it can be justified in the national interest, the president is above the law. Monica was not in the national interest and therefore fair game.

The divide is again the same as just after 911:

WE HAVE TO DO the right thing.

We have to do THE RIGHT THING.

Denise
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since 08-22-99
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226 posted 06-26-2004 05:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Just a quick note, Raph, because I'm off to work:

Clinton was impeached, it actually happened, it went beyond sought. And it was for perjury, not for lying about sex. Lying to his wife about it was one thing. Lying under oath before the nation is where he crossed the line. And yes, some folks were rabid about the subject. In retrospect, I should have been, but wasn't. I actually felt sorry for the guy for getting caught. But then I've always had a tendency to be a bleeding heart. And I didn't become politically involved, or really politically aware, until 9/11.

Toe, I've asked that question before and am still waiting for an answer. I think the only answer would be appeasement, more attempts at diplomacy, which never worked with terrorists to begin with, but I guess some folks will just never give up the faith on that. I guess it's sometimes hard to come to grips with the fact that there are people and/or groups of people that just can't be reasoned with. And I think some people take the biblical injunction of 'turning the other cheek' beyond a personal level and expand it to a national level, which, in my opinion, is a mistake.

Brad, I guess it just goes to show that you don't necessarily have to be for Bush to be for Bush's way of handling terrorism. I don't know. And they are still reeling emotionally from the recent beheading of one of their fellow countrymen. I know I am. I have to stop watching the news. It just rips me to shreds.
Aenimal
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227 posted 06-26-2004 02:52 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Denise I know it happened, the issue and my point is the same zealousy that went into impeaching Clinton over lying to the public about his personal life, should be aimed at an administration lying with regards to a war. Which, despite evidence, partisan shackles won't allow some to admit.

On the matter of lying, let's take a look at George W. Bush's record:

Bush lied to the public about his DUI conviction in 1976. In 1998 he was asked whether he'd ever been arrested to which Bush replied "after 1968? No." Pressed again he later told reporters that he'd paid a fine but never went to court. Both statements were false and were disproved when court documents were revealed.

In a court hearing to get his driving suspension lifted(though documents show he hadn't completed a driver rehabilitation course) he told the hearings officer, pressumably under oath as it is a court of law, that he drank once a month and had only the 'occasional beer.' But Bush has since admitted that he had a history of alcohol abuse at the time which means he perjured himself in court. When he finally admitted the arrest he stated that he'd covered up his arrest "to be a good role model for my daughters."

Bush also, much like Clinton, lied under oath regarding the SCI(funeral homes) scandal. In his July 20th 1999 affidavit,he stated he "had no conversations with [SCI] officials, agents, or represenatives." The sworn testimony of two others not only contradicts this but Bush himself later admitted to reporters that he had spoken to one of them but that it was only a 20 second conversation barely enough to say hello. And if you can laugh at Clinton for trying to squirm out of trouble with his 'meaning of is/isn't' defense, then you can nail Bush for his 'what constitutes a conversation' defense. There's more to scandal of course but hey it's not as juicy and interesting as a sex scandal is it?

As the for what one would have done question? I would have found irrefutable evidence before I chose to put the lives of my countrymen in danger.

And if I was actually focussing on true war on terror, I would have made sure actions in Afghanistan were more secure first, then I would have moved against known Al Queda havens like Saudi Arabia for example.
Denise
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228 posted 06-26-2004 08:06 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Raph, Maybe we should go back to the 1950's and ask his mother if he ever stole cookies from the cookie jar while we're at it? Seriously though, I'm personally not interested in nailing anybody for their personal failings, I've got enough of my own.

I do think, however, that there was plenty of irrefutable evidence to justify going to war. I don't think it was something concocted by Bush. Just go back and read the statements of Clinton, Gore, Kennedy, Kerry, et al, back in the late 90's.
Aenimal
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229 posted 06-26-2004 09:02 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

unbelievable..shakes head and walks out of conversation
Denise
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230 posted 06-27-2004 08:38 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Geeze, Raph, was it something that I said?

What's the problem? Is it wrong for me not to "go for the throat" over people's personal failings? We can all find fault with someone else. That's not hard to do. No one is perfect. I didn't condone the way folks went after Clinton (although in retrospect I think I should have been a bit more outraged at the time that the sitting President committed perjury), and I don't condone the way folks are going after Bush (and I don't believe that his case for war was based on lies just because one piece of intelligence that was cited was considered questionable at the time and later deemed false...there was plenty of other intelligence that was irrefutable.) I think we have more important things to be concerned about, like our survival against the terrorists. The only reason I brought up Clinton at all was to show how differently the media treated Nixon and Clinton in similar situations.

And the Democratic politicians I noted are singing quite a different tune today about Iraq than they were in the late 90's. Back then they sounded an awful lot like Bush. Check it out.
Ron
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231 posted 06-27-2004 10:59 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
...there was plenty of other intelligence that was irrefutable.

You should probably look up the word irrefutable, Denise, because you've misused it in this and several earlier posts. You may not want to see people refuting the evidence, but that alone won't make it so.

quote:
Just go back and read the statements of Clinton, Gore, Kennedy, Kerry, et al, back in the late 90's.

You continue to go down this road, but I don't think you've looked far enough ahead yet to see the inevitable destination. All you're really saying is that Clinton and others had the same ambiguous evidence Bush had, but refused to act upon it because it WAS ambiguous. Instead of suggesting Bush was right, you're just characterizing him as more rash than his predecessors.
Aenimal
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232 posted 06-27-2004 12:32 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
Is it wrong for me not to "go for the throat" over people's personal failings?


How many times throughout this thread was there a mention or joke about Clinton's disgrace by you or others? Yet, offered the same from the other side of the line it's 'going for the throat'


quote:
although in retrospect I think I should have been a bit more outraged at the time that the sitting President committed perjury



Yet, given cases where Bush has perjured himself and there's no outrage, just a snide remark about going back into his past, of course, completely ignoring the more recent funeral homes scandal.

I'm leaving because I think it's unbelievable(not my first choice of words) that you can consistently ignore and/or justify any wrongdoing by Bush and his administration. I don't see the point in continuing when you're so firmly entrenched in party propaganda, that you're completely unable to admit or conceed anything that challenges it.
Brad
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233 posted 06-27-2004 06:01 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

But isn't that a good reason to continue? We just have to remain calm and keep plugging away (Not always the easiest thing for me to do).

The easiest way to end this partisanship round is that Bush and company should resign.




Then we can go to the next one.
Aenimal
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234 posted 06-27-2004 08:47 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Brad I'm trying,I've tried, and it's the reason I've stayed this long. But it's simply impossible to get even ONE concession, one admission that damns the administration regardless of what information you throw out. It's beyond frustration, it's mortal terror that's driven me thusfar. Terror that people can be so enslaved by propaganda and doctrine that it overwhelms their capacity for reason. History has taught us nothing.
Juju
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235 posted 06-27-2004 09:54 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Is it perjury if you whole heartedly believe your saying the truth?
Denise
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236 posted 06-27-2004 10:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Ron, To my knowledge the vast majority of the evidence has not been refuted.

quote:
You continue to go down this road, but I don't think you've looked far enough ahead yet to see the inevitable destination. All you're really saying is that Clinton and others had the same ambiguous evidence Bush had, but refused to act upon it because it WAS ambiguous. Instead of suggesting Bush was right, you're just characterizing him as more rash than his predecessors.


That would be true if it were conceded that the evidence was ambiguous. It hasn't been proven to me that it was ambiguous.


I know the frustration, Raph. I feel the same way when trying to talk to folks who hold an opposing view.

But I never said that Bush was perfect. It just hasn't been proven to me that he led us into war based on lies.

And I'm not easily outraged. I wasn't really outraged over Clinton, though I said in retrospect I probably should have been, given that he was the President at the time (similar to what Brad said about Americans being held to higher standards than what the terrorists are held to, perhaps Presidents are usually held, or should be held, to a higher standard than the average citizen?)

quote:
my point is the same zealousy that went into impeaching Clinton over lying to the public about his personal life, should be aimed at an administration lying with regards to a war. Which, despite evidence, partisan shackles won't allow some to admit.


My "go for the throat" was in reference to your above comment. No, if I believe that the Republicans were overzealous in their treatment of Clinton (and I do), I wouldn't advocate that the Democrats respond in kind, even if it were proven to me that Bush lied (which it hasn't been). Two wrongs don't make a right?

And since I love you guys, I'll just leave it at that and agree that we just disagree.  

Juju, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Brad
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237 posted 06-28-2004 11:54 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Aenimal,

We don't do this to win. We do this because it is right.

Bush is a bad president.

Someday, they will understand that.
Sudhir Iyer
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since 04-26-2000
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Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


238 posted 06-28-2004 02:21 PM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Maybe,

Bush is a bad precedent?
Aenimal
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239 posted 06-28-2004 08:21 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Brad I'm not out to win, and the real reason I've stayed with it this long is to offer an alternate view in the event some young and impressionable voters read the forums. Still, at least one admission, one concession in the face of proof would be nice. It's incredibly disheartening that normally rational, intelligent people could be so easily swayed by this administration's manipulations. So much so that their arguments are rife with hypocrisy. My last few additions have been arguing everything they've attack the former government, with examples of Bush Co. doing the same. Still nothing, not one glimpse of rationality to offer me any hope that people are capable of independent thought. One would think that history has repeatedly taught us the dangers of blindly submitting to ideals and 'ism's.' But the current administration has clearly revealed, and exploited, the fact that too many haven't.
Aenimal
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240 posted 06-28-2004 09:10 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/archive.asp?more=true

Just found this site, of course 'liberal' media and left wing 'extremist' arguments will be bandied about, but all articles are corroborated by direct quotes, documents and links.
Balladeer
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241 posted 06-28-2004 10:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Geez!! Look at all I missed! (and the nice thing is I didn't miss it at all ). Still gone...just peeking in. Good to see you there, Ron. I was afraid those self-destructive tendencies kept you away

Peace to all from the mountains
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


242 posted 06-29-2004 12:04 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Aenimal,

Just got a hold of "Dude, Where's My Country"

So far, not that great.

Curious, have you read it?

Ron
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243 posted 06-29-2004 02:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Good to see you there, Ron. I was afraid those self-destructive tendencies kept you away

My comment on self-destruction, Mike, was interpretive, not observational. I described how "others" might see what you saw only as admirable. I often find it useful to explore alternative viewpoints. Pretty much everyone, of course, is prone to self-destructive actions, some just more so than others. Personally, I think drinking and driving qualifies as both self-destructive and potentially other-destructive, as well.

Raph, "Love is blind" seems to take on a whole new meaning, I think, when applied to politics and hero-worship. People inevitably use a different yardstick when measuring their neighbor's mom than when measuring their own. While that often leads to questionable results, it's pretty normal behavior for all of us.
Aenimal
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244 posted 06-29-2004 08:14 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Brad,
No I haven't yet. As i mentioned in another forum while I agree with many of Moore's beliefs I'm wary of his style in presenting them. He's too much of a showman, rather then present his case objectively or tastefully, he resorts to sensationalism making it propaganda, the very thing he's arguing against.

It's not entirely his fault, how else would a documentary, however explosive, enter the radar of a generally vapid and complacent mainstream, but by being as outrageous as possible? To be taken seriously Moore should find a better balance between entertainment and fact. It's sad because the important things he has to say often get lost in a circus of his own making.

And that's why I hope people reading and viewing his works will pick through noise and get the message we've been trying to drive home here.

quote:
Raph, "Love is blind" seems to take on a whole new meaning, I think, when applied to politics and hero-worship. People inevitably use a different yardstick when measuring their neighbor's mom than when measuring their own. While that often leads to questionable results, it's pretty normal behavior for all of us.


Good point Ron, however, with age and maturity we must also see the faults of our parents. Take cases of abuse, which is what  Bush Co. is guilty of. In a position of authority, a position of trust, they've abused their power and betrayed the American public when they needed leadership most
Ron
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245 posted 06-29-2004 10:48 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
And that's why I hope people reading and viewing his works will pick through noise and get the message we've been trying to drive home here.

Michael Moore is a lot like a clock I have hanging in my living room. The ticking annoyed me, so one day I removed the batteries. That clock now provides me with the correct time twice a day, but lacking verification, I never know when I can trust it. And, of course, with the verification, I don't really need it.

Being credible and being pregnant are both binary states, as far as I'm concerned.
Aenimal
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246 posted 06-29-2004 11:40 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

lol Well that's why I shy away from quoting Moore and deliver direct quotes. For example I've been on the White House press release site enough times that i'm probably marked and under survellaince.
Juju
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In your dreams


247 posted 06-29-2004 11:46 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Well, If I'm correct he's the one that made that movie. I am not going to put money his pocket to wach that movie. There is more then one thing wrong with that movie. It's like the Sen. Wellstone Funeral/Waking thingy. It broke my heart he used a movie which is supposedly dedicated to 9/11 as a Bush bash. It disgusts me. On T.V. he ammitted to changing stuff, saying he was being nice to Bush. What a jerk. At that point I decided not to watch that movie.

Just a random opinion sorry...
Juju
Toerag
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248 posted 06-30-2004 08:27 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Your description of Mike Moore is wonderful Ron..couldn't agree more...
jbouder
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Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


249 posted 06-30-2004 08:40 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

quote:
Bush is a bad president.


Certainly some of his policies are flawed, but yours is a mere position like any other.  From my perspective, seen through the lens of my interests, I have great admiration for some of his policies - particularly in regard to education and special education.

I think it is too early to characterize his international efforts as failures, since few good things are ever achieved without sacrifice.  I'm not saying that the ends necessarily justify his means - but I think you'd acknowledge that sometimes there are no perfect means.  If Bush did nothing in response to 9/11, would you then criticize his not acting?  I personnally admire his willingness to take risks.  Who wants a wet noodle as a president?

Jim
 
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