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Local Rebel
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0 posted 2004-04-01 06:56 PM


A church I drive past every day has a marquis sign out front upon which is usually posted the topic for the next sermon, an inspirational thought, a scripture, etc.

Today the message read;

quote:

April 1st is National Atheist Day



I'd thought American Christianity had progressed over the last 50 years.

© Copyright 2004 Local Rebel - All Rights Reserved
Sunshine
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1 posted 2004-04-01 07:14 PM



And here I see the joke...


Denise
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2 posted 2004-04-01 09:51 PM


Very sad. No, I wouldn't call that evangelism. More like a cheap shot, if you ask me.
Brad
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3 posted 2004-04-01 11:52 PM


Personally, I'm impressed.

This actually required thought.


Severn
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4 posted 2004-04-02 01:19 AM


something about casting stones springs to mind..

snicker...

how cute

K

Balladeer
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5 posted 2004-04-02 07:57 PM


I've tried but I'm having a hard time attaching any importance to this. I'm with Brad....it showed a little creativity. So it was a dig at atheists done in a comical way...so what? The Christians can find it funny and the atheists ignore it....or even smile at it. I don't see anything so wrong with this type of banter. Believe it or not, there was a time in this country where opposing sides DID take lighthearted digs at each other and nobody got outraged or saddened or threatened to sue. I didn't get mad at Billy in kindergarten even if my mother DID wear army boots! I don't see anything so unhealthy about it or so maddening, frightful or saddening to promote the types of responses displayed here. "Very sad...cheap shot...I thought Christianity had progressed...". Geez! When did humanity lose half it's skin?? It was a cutesy little dig and that's all. Atheist say that religious wars are fights between two groups to see who has the best imaginary friend. I haven't see Christians revolt againt, or even pay any attention to the comment. Why are people so quick to get offended? Have we gotten so politically correct that NOTHING can be said in jest? Yes, I know, there are those who will say "Ok, then. What about white/black slurs, American/non-American slurs, men/women slurs. You can take this one little attempt at getting a smile and blow it up into anything you want. That seems to be the norm these days anyway.

Actually, LR, with all due respect I'm a little surprised you would initiate this thread. I am more surprised that you would take a thought a member, or pastor, in one small church out of tens of thousands came up with and paint all of Christianity with it with your closing sentence. ..just doesn't strike me as your style.

Ok, I'm grabbing my ankles....


Local Rebel
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6 posted 2004-04-02 08:28 PM


Well Deer.. that won't be necessary!  

I'm not mad at all.  

If anything I'm disappointed.  Why?  Because when I was growing up (in a Christian church) there were First and Second this's and Holier Than Thou that's and the First Federal Mortgage and Salvation church's on every corner -- arguing about whether it was better to take a bath or a shower, whether Jesus was God or if they were two different persons, whether or not they were saved by faith or works, or faith and works, whether or not they could play a (sic)pieannie in the church or if they had to sing acapulco... etc. etc. etc.

The whole idea of evangelism was to try and steal each other's members once a year at revival time.

Since I'm an agnostic and officially out of the loop I don't really keep up with what's going on inside the Churches too awful much -- but I do get exposed to books, television, and the occasional knock on the door.

I thought maybe the thrust of Evangelism was finally moving toward trying to help and include the disenfranchised and the disadvantaged -- even the unchurched.  

This little sign just reminded me that probably the bulk of em still just want to pat themselves on the back for being 'right'.

Thats all.

Local Rebel
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7 posted 2004-04-02 08:50 PM


I should probably add that a couple of weeks ago I was unable to escape hearing a conversation in a customer's business between two members of the same church in which one of them described his recent visit to another congregation that apparantly had a lot of money and a lot of people and listened to him run it down for it's fancy choir and fancy this's and that's but their little church had more spirit in their little fingers, yadda yadda yadda.

Sure, it's just human nature.

Does it mean all church's are like that?  No.

I'm not presenting a logical argument here though -- I'm just ranting in the alley...

If that's not my style then that's probably a good thing

but every once in a while even Spock had to ... um... scream.

Balladeer
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8 posted 2004-04-02 08:51 PM


That's more like it. I was hoping I was simply guilty of misinterpretation...shoulda known.
Christopher
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9 posted 2004-04-02 09:26 PM


heh. i too like it... clever.

beats the worn-out fish eating evolved fish being eaten by bigger fish... bumper attachments

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10 posted 2004-04-02 11:01 PM


ROTFL at Christopher's reply.
As for the sign, guess I'd have to go ask the one who put it up what their intent was before jumping to (or fishing for) conclusions as to the meaning. Though if it really went up on April 1st? Don't you have to chuckle a tiny bit? A catchy sign to catch an unwary passerby and tempt them to
"come on down"

Local Rebel
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11 posted 2004-04-02 11:10 PM


Certainly one wants to catch attention with advertising -- but then one wants to be on message.

What's the target market for this particular sign?  There are plenty of funny ads that sell nothing.

Are you guys telling me that you want to go to this church because of this sign?

(and weren't there two people just a couple of days ago complaining about rhetoric vs. dialog in another thread somewhere?   )

Local Rebel
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12 posted 2004-04-02 11:47 PM


A couple of more questions;

Assuming that this sign was accompanied by a major Protestant brand (it was)... what if it said;

April 1st is National Catholic Day?

What if it was in Ireland?  

Or -- what if it just said

April 1st is National Buddhist Day?

National Islam Day?

What's the real sale here?

steavenr
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13 posted 2004-04-03 12:48 PM


It was simply a clever word play on the verse from the Book of the Psalms that states,"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." (14:1 and 53:1)

Offensive...well, that's why we all have opinions, isn't it...but I would rather err in believing they thought they were being clever and not offensive...but that is my opinion  

Ron
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14 posted 2004-04-03 12:56 PM


quote:
You can take this one little attempt at getting a smile and blow it up into anything you want. That seems to be the norm these days anyway.

At the risk of dissecting humor (something no one should ever do), I think it's safe to say that we laugh best when we are surprised. We expect to go from Point A to Point B, and when we unexpectedly arrive at Point J instead, the result can sometimes be funny. Surprise is an integral and probably very necessary ingredient to laughter.

Unfortunately, shock can accomplish much the same thing and is always a hell of a lot simpler. Dirty jokes and potshots at others are easy. Even, dare I say it, cheap. IMO, the cost of a smile for one person shouldn't be a tear for someone else. Not when smiles and laughter are among the very few things in this world not restricted by supply.

serenity blaze
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15 posted 2004-04-03 01:27 AM


I think it's clever, and cute, and rather refreshing.

I'm also sitting here scratching my head, wondering why it irks me...

serenity blaze
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16 posted 2004-04-03 01:29 AM


Ah...

smile.

It irked me because it was just damned rude.


Brad
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17 posted 2004-04-03 01:56 AM


Um, why is it rude?

Aetheism isn't really like Buddhism, Islam, or Christianity. It's the rejection of a spiritual foundation for identity or whatever.

I think most of the time, we'd rather be talking about something else.

Don't confuse heretics with aetheists.


serenity blaze
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18 posted 2004-04-03 02:07 AM


Okay, okay, Brad.

So you atheist types don't need my "mothering."

Um.

TOUGH.


Ron
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19 posted 2004-04-03 02:46 AM


quote:
Um, why is it rude?

Is there a way to call someone a fool without being rude, Brad?

Brad
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20 posted 2004-04-03 03:37 AM


Maybe on April First?


Local Rebel
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21 posted 2004-04-03 05:39 AM


Okay, now THAT's funny.  

I don't know why one shouldn't analyze humor Ron.  It's done all the time.  There are even classes in it.  And you're absolutely right -- the first element is surprise.

And I was like Blazey -- scratching my head and trying to figure out why it irked me too -- and I've really just been sort of thinking out loud about it on this thread...

And then it dawned on me why -- Rude?  yeah.. but.. the second element for comedy... it has to contain an element of truth. If they thought it was funny -- they have to think it's true.

We all know the 'just kidding' tag line is somewhat disingenuous.  And I'm not sure how far from heretics we can throw Atheists Brad.  We know the first thing America does before it goes to war with people is call them 'godless'.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion including the KKK and the Neo-Nazis.  But, hate is hate.  I suppose it is because I hold Christians, and Americans to a higher standard for some reason.  Perhaps I shouldn't.

Brad
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22 posted 2004-04-03 06:34 AM


Well, of course, they mean it.

Look, nine times out of ten, when you tell a believer you're an atheist, they don't really believe it anyway.  Or they see us as numbers for their next recruitment job.

I just don't see that we'll be forced to wear, I don't know, red stars or something to identify us anytime soon.

But, perhaps, just perhaps, if we are to take this seriously, the best way to deal with it is to laugh at it? Didn't anybody notice that my first comment here was just a wee bit condescending?  

nakdthoughts
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23 posted 2004-04-03 12:54 PM


Ron, I loved these words...

"IMO, the cost of a smile for one person shouldn't be a tear for someone else.
especially Not when smiles and laughter are among the very few things in this world not restricted by supply."

gave me something to think about today~
Thanks
M


Local Rebel
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24 posted 2004-04-03 01:06 PM


Yes Brad... and that's a strategy.  But I think we have a fundamental difference in our expectations.  I have to go back to Einstein here and say that like him saying he was an 'agnostic Jew', I have to say that I'm an agnostic Christian because it is the stock that I come from.

And I have a pretty clear picture in my head of the model of a Christian from my father.  I know what he worked for in his lifetime -- and saw him, along with others, make progress in the right direction.  That doesn't mean there still isn't progress being made -- but -- as a whole I notice more and more -- and it might be my imagination -- but there seems to be a vituperant tone to America since 9/11 -- and it's showing up everywhere.

You might expect this from Christians.  I don't.  They might expect an atheist or an agnostic to dig back.  I don't.  I think you're right -- most time's we would just shirk it off.  But we don't exist in a vacuum.

It saddens me that there are a good number of Christians who seem to be missing the best parts of Christianity.

On the whole atheists aren't a contingency but a lot of individuals -- but there are those groups out there -- and you know who they are -- I constantly refer to them as fake atheists... because in my opinion they are just theists who are angry at God.  Else why gather and talk about how bad Christians are?

I'm sure this swat on a billboard was aimed at them -- or maybe at someone who has a case before the Supreme Court to take 'under God' out of the Pledge... but -- I have to ask why swat at all?  Shouldn't the message be 'Atheists Welcome Too'?

Christopher
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25 posted 2004-04-03 02:24 PM


quote:
Shouldn't the message be 'Atheists Welcome Too'
I saw that one in Kansas about a year and a half or so ago. No kidding.

This compells me to bring about some other thoughts I've had along this vein - I was raised Baptist and have long since discarded it (for many-a-reason). Yet for all my agnosticism, I find it seems somewhat contrary to "good taste" for all these "Christians" to start an add campaign for God. You have multiple bumper/window decals with comic icons kneeling before a cross (ironically the most common icon is a replica of one of Sunday morning's most infamous troublemakers), catchy little sayings like "No God, No peace. Know God, know peace." Giant adds in newspapers, buildings larger and fancier than some four-star hotels (one downtown is even able to close off a portion of the downtown area for their services). On and on and on. It seems as if religion is no longer separating itself as above, but rather, is joing Pepsi & Coke, McDonalds & Burger King, Camel & Marlboro, in promoting their commercial property to the masses at large.

Very interesting, but also a bit disconcerting... and like you guys, it's got me scratching my head, wondering why it bothers me... aside from the tiny bit that THEY DON'T PAY TAXES.

LoveBug
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26 posted 2004-04-03 04:12 PM


"Personally, I'm impressed.

This actually required thought."

Brad, I don't see how that comment is any better than the April Fools comment...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Opeth
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27 posted 2004-04-03 05:13 PM


I always wondeder what the baptist congregation would do if I walked into their services one Sunday morning and in front of their 300+ crowd and tv cameras, waved a "Go Steelers" sign around... of course I would be wearing my rainbow wig.

Anyway, the title of this thread reminded me of this...

Extreme ~ Evilangelist

little lamb come out of
the rain
you'll catch your death in
the cold
a helping hand to come ease
the pain
in peace you'll rest in
our fold

i can be a watch
towering light
for those of you who can't see
i'll separate the truth
from the lies
blind faithful come follow me

evilangelist
you name is on my list
i'm your evilangelist
in what god you trust

close your eyes while i
hypnotize
a friend in need to confess
you've been denied the cock
crowed thrice
surrender all you possess

evilangelist
your name is on my list
i'm your evilangelist
i was betrayed by a kiss

so many claim
to come in thy name
promising peace they'll bring
lest ye taste
the fruit of the vine
they're just wolves in
sheep's clothing

"You sleep in the night yet the night and the silent water still so dark."

Local Rebel
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28 posted 2004-04-03 05:43 PM


Christopher, is it okay if I say -- I know what you mean?  heh.. (sorry Brad )

I think it is the campaign that may be in poor taste or not -- not necessarily the concept of advertising.  I think you'd find if you go back through the history of Christianity that signage has been fairly common from the start.  Early Christians made signs resembling popular banners and shingles that were in use around them -- but with a Christian bent to them instead.

Some of the signs out in front of Churches actually have some decent messages.  One television campaign in particular that comes to mind as falling into the 'good' category was what the Mormons were doing for a long time that said basically -- hey -- spend some time with your family -- and by the way -- we're the Mormons.

The one's I find in particularly poor taste are the GIANT billboards with supposed messages from 'God'.

If one puts forth a message of appeal to the general welfare as a public service -- I think that's always in good taste and a decent investment of time and money.  One that merely vies for 'position' seems rather gosh.  

I've been extremely impressed with the Salvation Army through the years.  They're very visible and very effective -- dollars donated to dollars going to serve the needy is the highest -- yet -- I bet you can't find 2 people that can tell you what they beleive.  (and no googling)

Local Rebel
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29 posted 2004-04-03 05:51 PM


Lovebug.. I think you've hit on what else bugs me about this...

Brad isn't a bad guy.  He's a good guy.  A good moral guy.  We all like him.  (well most of us )

But you're right -- his comment isn't any better.  It goes back to what I was saying about expectations.  I don't expect Christians to behave that way -- and I don't expect that the people of that Church are bad people.  They're probably very good, decent, moral people.  

That's why it's dissapointing all the more.


Local Rebel
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30 posted 2004-04-03 05:57 PM


Opeth is that your composition?

I'm interpreting the gist of your opening comment to be retaliatory for something .. but I'm not sure what???  

But, I'm glad you've shown the restraint to not ever act on that urge.



Local Rebel
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31 posted 2004-04-03 06:16 PM


weell gee.. how rude am I?

sunshine     thanks!  

I thought I caught you earlier..

Denise -- thanks -- I hope I'm not being offensive here.

Kam -- um -- putting down my slingshot..  

Steavenr -- thankyou also -- um... but there are many scriptures that are not suitable for posting on a welcome sign.. eh?

And Ron -- ditto to what Mo said... thanks o naked one..

Blazey -- as long as the mothering doesn't include chores??  heh....

ok -- time to spend some more time with the next generation of rebels

Balladeer
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32 posted 2004-04-03 06:30 PM


One man's act for smiles and look a the path it's taken....still amazes me
Brad
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33 posted 2004-04-03 06:57 PM


And yet is there any true malice in either comment?

The difference is there, why not have a good time with it? At least, let's not pretend that it's wrong to even mention it.


Brad
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34 posted 2004-04-03 07:13 PM


This was posted at an evolution/creation website. It is a parody.

A creationist at debate site saw it as serious. You decide:
http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html

It is in this kind of context that I read the joke.

Personal favorite: "Using Prayer To Microevolve Latent Antibiotic Resistance In Bacteria"

Ringo
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35 posted 2004-04-03 07:32 PM


The question I have is: "the sign was there on April the Oneth... was it there the following afternoon?"

Opeth- "Go Steelers"????  Hmmmmm......
I am actually going to be heading to Garden Grove, Ca this summer (home of Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral)... maybe I should give this sentiment a little thought (lol)... of course, I would have to say "GO BENGALS"

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs...

Local Rebel
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36 posted 2004-04-03 09:35 PM


Ringo... yes..  I'm not sure what difference it would make if it was or wasn't?

Deer?  This thread has a direction?  I'm not sure it even has a thesis.

Brad -- looked at the site but I need clarification as to what the creationist thought was serious?  He thought it was real?  Or thought the parody was seriously offensive?

I clicked on this http://objective.jesussave.us/babyj.html  while I was there -- and I'd have to say -- it's offensive.

If Galileo had chosen a path other than to make the Pope (his friend) look like a fool history may have been different for him.  Perhaps he wanted to be a martyr.  Although -- he fared better than Socrates -- who also decided to take the path of making the Patriarchs look like fools.  

I don't see how poking at each other with sticks makes the world any better.  There is a difference between laughing with and laughing at. Of course it's a classic Machiavellian device to employ so if the minister just needed to rally the troops it's much easier to line them up against something than for something.

I dare say that if I had posted the content of the sign as a comment in a thread instead of in the context of quoting it for discussion it would not have passed PIP muster.

Balladeer
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37 posted 2004-04-03 10:32 PM


Ya think that was a rally call, reb?? Stir up the congregation so they can whomp the bejesus outta those non-believers?
Local Rebel
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38 posted 2004-04-03 10:38 PM


Ah well, would I be advancing a stereotype if I suggested his motives might have been financial?

Maybe whomp the bottom of the plate with the filthy lucre might be a more likely scenario?



Ringo
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39 posted 2004-04-04 12:02 PM


LR- That sounds like the type of thing that a few of the more fun-loving ministers in this area would have done as an April Fools type of thing. I was just checking.

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs...

Brad
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40 posted 2004-04-04 07:54 AM


I don't get the page you posted. It's not funny (but, c'mon you don't think the science fair is even a little funny?).

It's probably true that that wouldn't pass muster here and that's fine. No doubt A Modest Proposal wouldn't either and that's fine. I've never thought and nor do I think Ron thinks that PIP is a microcosm for a liberal society. We get rid of some things so other things can be done, and other sites allow things we don't, but don't have what we have.

In the philosophy forum, we have indeed have substantive discussions that simply haven't taken place in a differently oriented philosophy site. The discussion on naturalism/supernaturalism in other forums rarely seems to get much passed the, "You're an idiot for thinking like that". On the other hand, there are things that we haven't been able to do (a sustained discussion on Kripke's 'rigid designator' for example.)

But aren't all these 'sites' and not one 'site' the better model?

quote:
If Galileo had chosen a path other than to make the Pope (his friend) look like a fool history may have been different for him.  Perhaps he wanted to be a martyr.  Although -- he fared better than Socrates -- who also decided to take the path of making the Patriarchs look like fools.
  

Admittedly, I haven't read any of these recent revisionist histories, only read about them, but the idea has always struck me as a bit odd. Don't get me wrong, for all I know Galileo and Socrates (or Bruno) were jerks, but is that a good reason for what happened to them?

quote:
I don't see how poking at each other with sticks makes the world any better.


And yet one of the most famous scenes in 20th century philosophy is Wittgenstein supposedly threatening Karl Popper with a poker. I can't help but feel that the 'story' of philosophy would somehow be lessened without it. Wittgenstein is, more or less, the declared winner today, but I suspect to see a Popper resurgence in the near future.

In a different vein, isn't Patton more interesting for the man he was and perhaps integral to his exploits on the battlefield than for what he should have been?

quote:
There is a difference between laughing with and laughing at. Of course it's a classic Machiavellian device to employ so if the minister just needed to rally the troops it's much easier to line them up against something than for something.


Yes, it is. Yet, the line between 'laughing with' and 'laughing at' is a difficult one to draw. I want to make the same distinction here as I made with sites. There is more than one type of conversation and none of them should be a standard model. Problems do occur when people confuse one conversation for another, that's the risk, but I see no reason that we shouldn't take the risk unless you want to paper over diversity or difference in a Adam Sandler view of harmony (Think Big Daddy.)

I stuck in Bruno with Galileo because I wanted to end with a quote that he reportedly said before he was executed. I think it applies to anyone who fears judgement in general(from yourself or in hearing it from others to other people):

quote:
Perchance your fear in passing judgment on me is greater than mine in receiving it.



Local Rebel
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41 posted 2004-04-04 12:06 PM


Ah, finally Brad...Thank you....   I think we have a common frame of reference with which to work.  (notice how I didn't end a sentence a preposition with this time?)

quote:
I've never thought and nor do I think Ron thinks that PIP is a microcosm for a liberal society.



This and your analogy of the difference between site rules is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say we have a difference in expectations.  I have no idea what Ron thinks -- but, it is probably no accident that the standards of conduct he expects at this site ARE congruous with what my expectations are from 21st Century Christians.  

That we can have the kind of substantive discussions we do, and sites that don't have these kind of standards don't, is exactly my point.  We live in a world of all kinds of bigotry.  It's unfortunate that we might have need for a Patton here and there. People are dying all over the globe over religious bigotry right now.

Morality, spirituality, eschatology, afterlife, -- none of these philosophies are unique to the Christian religion.  I'm an admirer too of Confucianism -- and there is no doubt the 'Golden Rule' very much predates the Christian message and is present there as well as in other philosophies.  When someone comes to me complaining that this or that person said something bad about them or doesn't like them -- I find it an effective salve to bring out Master Kung Fu Tse's story of the student who asked the master what it said about a man that everyone liked him -- and the response was -- not enough -- it is enough to say that the good people like him and the bad one's do not.  

Enter then, the Christian philosophy, even bad people like their friends and children -- love your enemies too.

There is a time and place for satire -- and appropriate targets and inappropriate ones.  Anyone who enters the public arena and tries to influence the scope of the government is fair game.  I have no problem with lampooning individuals for their own actions (or inaction).  In the seventies Dumb Pollack jokes were popular.  I laughed at them.  Some friends of mine who were Polish were offended.  I didn't understand why.  It was JUST a JOKE.  Right?  Wrong.  SNL can lampoon individual politicians, actors, or even a religious figure like Falwell or Jackson (because they are in the public arena) and it's funny.  Not funny would be lampooning African Americans.  Funny would be lampooning the stereotyping of African Americans.  Funny, and effective commentary, is Meathead and Archie Bunker together -- if one of them had been painted as virtuous and intelligent while making the other a moronic ideologue it would not have been funny nor lasted as long as it did.

The science fair project is a ruse to sucker punch someone who clicks on the page that I posted -- where they can really stick it to the Christian.  Given the amount of effort that was put into that site -- the amount of hatred in its author(S) is regretful.  

Free speech is free speech.  Christians have a mandate to be 'leaven unto the world'.  The welcome sign out front is not the venue for anything that couldn't pass PIP muster.

Brad
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42 posted 2004-04-05 12:10 PM


Wow, this has become much more interesting than I had first imagined.

Two quick points:

1. I concede that it may have been and inappropriate venue, a welcoming board, for telling the joke. Get enough aetheists (Why do I prefer the 'ae' instead of 'a' -- I don't know) together and someone is bound to be offended. Nothing follows from being an aetheist.

2. Polish jokes were funny, but not because they were 'polish'. Slide 'American' (Ever heard and American joke from a Canadian?) in there and they're still funny. I suspect that the best jokes are ultimately about ourselves -- the ethnic group is just a placeholder.

The danger, of course, is that some people take them seriously. I used to love French jokes, I don't anymore.

serenity blaze
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43 posted 2004-04-05 12:27 PM


I'm adding a quick "wow" too.

Because earlier I was confused as to why it bothered me--and "damned rude"? wasn't quite apt enough.

Reb is right, yet again.

Christianity, the part that I understand and embrace as a code of conduct, was muddied by that "joke."

And that is exactly what "irked" me.

thanks againk, Reb...

Opeth
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44 posted 2004-04-05 07:01 AM


"Opeth is that your composition?"

~ Nope. Those were lyrics from the song, Evilangelist, by the now defunct, Extreme.

"I'm interpreting the gist of your opening comment to be retaliatory for something .. but I'm not sure what???"

~ No, not at all... or at least was not intended to be so. Your title and original post caused me to think and write what I wrote. That is all.
  
"But, I'm glad you've shown the restraint to not ever act on that urge."

~ lol... Me too!

"You sleep in the night yet the night and the silent water still so dark."

berengar
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45 posted 2004-04-05 08:30 AM


I read that science fair spoof and my initial bemusement soon morphed into hilarity.  Now, was that site the fruit of hatred?  Well, I suppose if a Baptist comedian set up a site lampooning atheists with equal wit, and the said atheists were not overly offended, then hatred would not be the prime motivator.  People who laugh at each other, and (most especially) laugh at themselves may find it somewhat difficult to get around to killing afterward.  A little doze of self-mockery keeps the wheels of sanity turning. Lest we drown in our self-righteousness (like the polish goldfish).
Balladeer
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46 posted 2004-04-05 07:02 PM


Serenity girl, your comment was MY point. Christianity was not muddied by that joke. It was one guy trying to be clever, that's all. To spread it out to all of Christianity is not only one hell of a stretch, it's invalid, unless you are saying that any act committed by any member of any organization will paint that organization with the colors of whatever comment or action was made. Is that really fair to the Christians that considered it in bad taste? They weren't asked to participate in its creation nor were they asked to endorse it. It was ONE guy, nothing more....is it right to villify an entire religion? Is the sky really falling?
Local Rebel
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47 posted 2004-04-05 07:21 PM


Self-deprecating humor is fine berengar.  Laughing at ourselves is great.  The problem with the Objective Ministries site isn't necessarily the Science Fair Project itself but the rest of it -- in particular pages like the one I posted above.  Not to mention the whole Shutdown Landover Baptist campaign http://www.landoverbaptist.org/    where they've created an entirely different spoof site to be at war against.  Was it developed by Conservative Christians lampooning themselves?  I don't know -- but if they really wanted to be funny, and not just mean, they would have developed a spoof evolutionist site to be at war with and made a mockery of the other side of the argument.

I laugh at myself plenty and even spoof myself in this thread /pip/Forum6/HTML/000957.html I parody Falwell on my own site http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/falwell.htm I think it falls into the fair game category as I described above.  A gansta rapper can use the N word all he wants and nobody is going to say anything about it.  If I use it though -- nobody is going to laugh.  That's just the way it is.

There are plenty of things that I'd like to laugh at -- things that are tempting to do in life -- but, we just can't act on all those urges and have to show some restraint like our friend Opeth.    

So Brad -- how do you drive an American crazy?  Put him in an oval office and tell him to find the weapons of mass destruction    

Deer, confining the scope of responsibility for this particular action to 'one guy' is probably not a very good description -- that sign represented a lot of guys -- and gals -- everyone who is a member of that particular congregation.  Does it mean that all Christianity believes that?  Of course not.. but, I beleive we've had conversations before talking about 'the ugly American' abroad -- he isn't us -- but -- to those he's in front of -- he is.  So, you're right.. and Blazey is too.  

Local Rebel
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48 posted 2004-04-05 07:46 PM


A point I really didn't make clear just then -- the Objective Ministries spoof mocks the tenets of Christianity itself -- they are mocking the religion itself -- which is what I consider to be inflamatory and over the line.

What I'm doing with Falwell is lampooning the political involvement of an organization that just happens to be religious.  I'm not making fun of anyone believing in the tenets of Christianity.

Balladeer
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49 posted 2004-04-05 08:18 PM


Can't talk now....going through "don't tell blonde jokes" withdrawal..
Local Rebel
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50 posted 2004-04-05 09:34 PM


It's dangerous to try that cold turkey Micheal.... paste a thong on your arm...!  
berengar
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51 posted 2004-04-05 10:02 PM


"... if they really wanted to be funny, and not just mean, they would have developed a spoof evolutionist site to be at war with and made a mockery of the other side of the argument."

My point exactly LR.  Having read the rest of the site, I'd agree with you that much of it is in bad taste and some consistency would be helpful.  

"A point I really didn't make clear just then -- the Objective Ministries spoof mocks the tenets of Christianity itself -- they are mocking the religion itself -- which is what I consider to be inflamatory and over the line."

Ah, that's a difficult one.  Let me ask you, did Monty Pythons 'The Life of Brian' mock the tenants of Christianity and, if so, is it to be considered inflammatory and over the line?  Personally, I think 'Objective Ministry's' language could have been toned down, but the message they convey ain't much different from the monty python spoof.  Now ask yourself, did you find 'Life of Brian' funny?  I think the real greviance with 'Objective Ministries' is just that so much of their material ceases to be humerous precisely when it becomes offensive.  It's the style of the thing.  Therein, perhaps, lies the fine line between mockery for the intent of harming and mockery for the intent of humour.
I suspect God is big enough to look after Himself.

Local Rebel
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52 posted 2004-04-05 10:36 PM


Ah... God.

That's a different thread.

Ne'er my worry.

jellybeans
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53 posted 2004-04-08 02:27 PM


Shouldn't the message be 'Atheists Welcome Too'?

yeppers you are right, churches are or should be 'hospitals' for the spiritually ill, and if....if...they feel atheists are the most ill...then they should be standing outside with a gurney......not poking at them with a billboard....

thought provoking for certain
....things like that get put up without enough forethought...if they had thought it out and seen it as the 'rude' comment it is, they probably would not have put it up, but we as people seem to act and then think later...perhaps you should print this thread and send it to them
might make a difference in their next billboard

Local Rebel
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54 posted 2004-04-08 11:18 PM


Nah.. just me rantin in the Alley Beanie  -- but -- somebody probably ought to write a letter to Wal-Mart about those Easter Baskets full of War Planes and Army Gear?

Onward Christian Soldiers??


Opeth
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55 posted 2004-04-09 07:30 AM


"Nah.. just me rantin in the Alley Beanie  -- but -- somebody probably ought to write a letter to Wal-Mart about those Easter Baskets full of War Planes and Army Gear?"

Onward Christian Soldiers??"


LR,

No kidding... Are you serious... Wal-Mart is actually selling The God of Fertility Easter baskets with war planes and army gear?

I'll bet they didn't sell anything at all for the Pascha.

jellybeans
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56 posted 2004-04-09 09:59 AM


rofg@onward christian soldiers......
if one were really stretching it, we could surmise that they are promoting 'the ultimate downfall of evil'

lol...or maybe they are just making money...like always....sigh......

Local Rebel
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57 posted 2004-04-09 07:00 PM


Yep Opeth, right beside the chocolate eggs and bunnies!

Beanie -- you mean they might have done market research to find out what would sell?  

Brad
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58 posted 2004-04-09 07:52 PM


Can someone please explain the difference between calling someone a fool and treating them as mentally ill?

In the former, at least I'm treated as a person. In the latter, I'm treated as an object to be cured. In the former, I can return the compliment. In the latter, what I say will be ignored.

Local Rebel
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59 posted 2004-04-09 08:27 PM


Ah, you noticed that.

It depends on what one's paradigm of mental illness is.  I wouldn't say mental illness robs one of personhood -- but, um, I know what you mean.

Didn't we already have that discussion though?  

In context Brad -- there is very little difference between the assumptions behind one or the other.  Namely -- without God we must be in despair -- ergo -- we're either fools or ill.

Ron
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60 posted 2004-04-09 09:54 PM


I think the difference is simple. No one chooses to be mentally ill.
Local Rebel
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61 posted 2004-04-09 10:40 PM


That's not what I was hearing in another thread Ron.  Not that I disagree.  But, from the perspective of some the assumption is still that mental illness is just a kind of spiritual weakness.

Which would bring the alternative question.  Brad has leapt from 'spiritual illness' to 'mental illness'.  And from my perspective spirituality is very much rooted in mental health -- but I don't think it would be perceived that way across the board.

There are, after all, some who believe in literal spirits -- evil ones and the like -- good questions for a philosophy discussion.

Brad
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62 posted 2004-04-09 11:11 PM


It's a leap?
Local Rebel
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63 posted 2004-04-10 12:39 PM


Spirituality would not necessarily be a mental function to some Brad.  In a paradigm that involves an ineffible spirit, indwelling, and the potential presense of the 'holy spirit' comforter/companion -- spiritual illness would not be seen the same as a mental (brain) illness.

It could be seen as a lack of contact with the holy spirit.

Some sort of loss of direction of your own spirit.

Or even the presense of a foreign (demonic) spirit.

In these instances you are merely not speaking the same language.

Brad
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64 posted 2004-04-10 10:14 PM


quote:
It could be seen as a lack of contact with the holy spirit.


How do they know? There is a movement, facetious as far as I can tell, called theistic atheism. God keeps trying to show us that He doesn't exist. We should obey his wishes.

quote:
Some sort of loss of direction of your own spirit.


Doesn't this put them in the curious position of trying to convince me that I'm really in despair without knowing it?

quote:
Or even the presense of a foreign (demonic) spirit.


So, are they going to come over with some Holy water and scream, "The power of Christ compels you, the power of Christ compels you!"

Honestly, I haven't vomited green slime in months.  

You know, perhaps, we do speak the same language and they keep trying to use it to avoid the idea that people might actually, legitimately disagree.

Local Rebel
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65 posted 2004-04-12 12:10 PM


quote:

Honestly, I haven't vomited green slime in months.


wish I could say the same

but yeah, I'm still trying to figure out this whole existential despair angle myself -- it always baffles me when somebody tries to convince me there's nothing between me and suicide.

For some reason mention agnosticism or atheism and people think Nihilism and despair instead of Einstein, Buckminster Fuller, Universal Unitarianism, Jonas Salk, Bertrand Russell, or Isaac Asimov.

serenity blaze
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66 posted 2004-04-12 12:17 PM


Sheesh.

I said I was sorry...

oops.

I forgot to .

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (04-12-2004 12:57 AM).]

Kaoru
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where the wild flowers grow
67 posted 2004-05-03 09:58 PM


I have to say, I am enraged! Downright angry!
Look at me, do I look like I'm kidding?!

Okay, so maybe I am...


Here's the deal, typically, I'd let this kind of thing cause me frustration or whatever..HOWever, I've thought about this for a day now and even though I think it's a little out of place, it is kind of silly.

Silly, as in, I'm not laughing with them..I'm laughing at them. How far must we go before we decide to give eachother at least a little respect?
I just keep thinking that if an athiest said something like that about them, there'd be 10 kinds of stink about it.

This is something I'll just shrug off, because I know what's right and wrong, and what's neccesary.
This isn't one of those neccesary things, and they probably figured that out after the fact..whether or not they care is the question.

Toerag
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Ala bam a
68 posted 2004-05-14 07:27 AM


RON....I've not only chosen to be mentally ill...I exploit it in my poetry and general conversations?....Besides, if you're mentally ill, you always..I mean always have an excuse in anything you do...
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