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Passions in Poetry

Evangelism?

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Christopher
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25 posted 04-03-2004 02:24 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Shouldn't the message be 'Atheists Welcome Too'
I saw that one in Kansas about a year and a half or so ago. No kidding.

This compells me to bring about some other thoughts I've had along this vein - I was raised Baptist and have long since discarded it (for many-a-reason). Yet for all my agnosticism, I find it seems somewhat contrary to "good taste" for all these "Christians" to start an add campaign for God. You have multiple bumper/window decals with comic icons kneeling before a cross (ironically the most common icon is a replica of one of Sunday morning's most infamous troublemakers), catchy little sayings like "No God, No peace. Know God, know peace." Giant adds in newspapers, buildings larger and fancier than some four-star hotels (one downtown is even able to close off a portion of the downtown area for their services). On and on and on. It seems as if religion is no longer separating itself as above, but rather, is joing Pepsi & Coke, McDonalds & Burger King, Camel & Marlboro, in promoting their commercial property to the masses at large.

Very interesting, but also a bit disconcerting... and like you guys, it's got me scratching my head, wondering why it bothers me... aside from the tiny bit that THEY DON'T PAY TAXES.
LoveBug
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26 posted 04-03-2004 04:12 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"Personally, I'm impressed.

This actually required thought."

Brad, I don't see how that comment is any better than the April Fools comment...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Opeth
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27 posted 04-03-2004 05:13 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I always wondeder what the baptist congregation would do if I walked into their services one Sunday morning and in front of their 300+ crowd and tv cameras, waved a "Go Steelers" sign around... of course I would be wearing my rainbow wig.

Anyway, the title of this thread reminded me of this...

Extreme ~ Evilangelist

little lamb come out of
the rain
you'll catch your death in
the cold
a helping hand to come ease
the pain
in peace you'll rest in
our fold

i can be a watch
towering light
for those of you who can't see
i'll separate the truth
from the lies
blind faithful come follow me

evilangelist
you name is on my list
i'm your evilangelist
in what god you trust

close your eyes while i
hypnotize
a friend in need to confess
you've been denied the cock
crowed thrice
surrender all you possess

evilangelist
your name is on my list
i'm your evilangelist
i was betrayed by a kiss

so many claim
to come in thy name
promising peace they'll bring
lest ye taste
the fruit of the vine
they're just wolves in
sheep's clothing

"You sleep in the night yet the night and the silent water still so dark."

Local Rebel
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28 posted 04-03-2004 05:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Christopher, is it okay if I say -- I know what you mean?  heh.. (sorry Brad )

I think it is the campaign that may be in poor taste or not -- not necessarily the concept of advertising.  I think you'd find if you go back through the history of Christianity that signage has been fairly common from the start.  Early Christians made signs resembling popular banners and shingles that were in use around them -- but with a Christian bent to them instead.

Some of the signs out in front of Churches actually have some decent messages.  One television campaign in particular that comes to mind as falling into the 'good' category was what the Mormons were doing for a long time that said basically -- hey -- spend some time with your family -- and by the way -- we're the Mormons.

The one's I find in particularly poor taste are the GIANT billboards with supposed messages from 'God'.

If one puts forth a message of appeal to the general welfare as a public service -- I think that's always in good taste and a decent investment of time and money.  One that merely vies for 'position' seems rather gosh.  

I've been extremely impressed with the Salvation Army through the years.  They're very visible and very effective -- dollars donated to dollars going to serve the needy is the highest -- yet -- I bet you can't find 2 people that can tell you what they beleive.  (and no googling)
Local Rebel
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29 posted 04-03-2004 05:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Lovebug.. I think you've hit on what else bugs me about this...

Brad isn't a bad guy.  He's a good guy.  A good moral guy.  We all like him.  (well most of us )

But you're right -- his comment isn't any better.  It goes back to what I was saying about expectations.  I don't expect Christians to behave that way -- and I don't expect that the people of that Church are bad people.  They're probably very good, decent, moral people.  

That's why it's dissapointing all the more.

Local Rebel
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30 posted 04-03-2004 05:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Opeth is that your composition?

I'm interpreting the gist of your opening comment to be retaliatory for something .. but I'm not sure what???  

But, I'm glad you've shown the restraint to not ever act on that urge.


Local Rebel
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31 posted 04-03-2004 06:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

weell gee.. how rude am I?

sunshine     thanks!  

I thought I caught you earlier..

Denise -- thanks -- I hope I'm not being offensive here.

Kam -- um -- putting down my slingshot..  

Steavenr -- thankyou also -- um... but there are many scriptures that are not suitable for posting on a welcome sign.. eh?

And Ron -- ditto to what Mo said... thanks o naked one..

Blazey -- as long as the mothering doesn't include chores??  heh....

ok -- time to spend some more time with the next generation of rebels
Balladeer
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32 posted 04-03-2004 06:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

One man's act for smiles and look a the path it's taken....still amazes me
Brad
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33 posted 04-03-2004 06:57 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And yet is there any true malice in either comment?

The difference is there, why not have a good time with it? At least, let's not pretend that it's wrong to even mention it.

Brad
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34 posted 04-03-2004 07:13 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

This was posted at an evolution/creation website. It is a parody.

A creationist at debate site saw it as serious. You decide:
http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html

It is in this kind of context that I read the joke.

Personal favorite: "Using Prayer To Microevolve Latent Antibiotic Resistance In Bacteria"
Ringo
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35 posted 04-03-2004 07:32 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

The question I have is: "the sign was there on April the Oneth... was it there the following afternoon?"

Opeth- "Go Steelers"????  Hmmmmm......
I am actually going to be heading to Garden Grove, Ca this summer (home of Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral)... maybe I should give this sentiment a little thought (lol)... of course, I would have to say "GO BENGALS"

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs...

Local Rebel
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36 posted 04-03-2004 09:35 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ringo... yes..  I'm not sure what difference it would make if it was or wasn't?

Deer?  This thread has a direction?  I'm not sure it even has a thesis.

Brad -- looked at the site but I need clarification as to what the creationist thought was serious?  He thought it was real?  Or thought the parody was seriously offensive?

I clicked on this http://objective.jesussave.us/babyj.html  while I was there -- and I'd have to say -- it's offensive.

If Galileo had chosen a path other than to make the Pope (his friend) look like a fool history may have been different for him.  Perhaps he wanted to be a martyr.  Although -- he fared better than Socrates -- who also decided to take the path of making the Patriarchs look like fools.  

I don't see how poking at each other with sticks makes the world any better.  There is a difference between laughing with and laughing at. Of course it's a classic Machiavellian device to employ so if the minister just needed to rally the troops it's much easier to line them up against something than for something.

I dare say that if I had posted the content of the sign as a comment in a thread instead of in the context of quoting it for discussion it would not have passed PIP muster.
Balladeer
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37 posted 04-03-2004 10:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ya think that was a rally call, reb?? Stir up the congregation so they can whomp the bejesus outta those non-believers?
Local Rebel
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38 posted 04-03-2004 10:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ah well, would I be advancing a stereotype if I suggested his motives might have been financial?

Maybe whomp the bottom of the plate with the filthy lucre might be a more likely scenario?


Ringo
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39 posted 04-04-2004 12:02 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

LR- That sounds like the type of thing that a few of the more fun-loving ministers in this area would have done as an April Fools type of thing. I was just checking.

Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs...

Brad
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40 posted 04-04-2004 07:54 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't get the page you posted. It's not funny (but, c'mon you don't think the science fair is even a little funny?).

It's probably true that that wouldn't pass muster here and that's fine. No doubt A Modest Proposal wouldn't either and that's fine. I've never thought and nor do I think Ron thinks that PIP is a microcosm for a liberal society. We get rid of some things so other things can be done, and other sites allow things we don't, but don't have what we have.

In the philosophy forum, we have indeed have substantive discussions that simply haven't taken place in a differently oriented philosophy site. The discussion on naturalism/supernaturalism in other forums rarely seems to get much passed the, "You're an idiot for thinking like that". On the other hand, there are things that we haven't been able to do (a sustained discussion on Kripke's 'rigid designator' for example.)

But aren't all these 'sites' and not one 'site' the better model?

quote:
If Galileo had chosen a path other than to make the Pope (his friend) look like a fool history may have been different for him.  Perhaps he wanted to be a martyr.  Although -- he fared better than Socrates -- who also decided to take the path of making the Patriarchs look like fools.
  

Admittedly, I haven't read any of these recent revisionist histories, only read about them, but the idea has always struck me as a bit odd. Don't get me wrong, for all I know Galileo and Socrates (or Bruno) were jerks, but is that a good reason for what happened to them?

quote:
I don't see how poking at each other with sticks makes the world any better.


And yet one of the most famous scenes in 20th century philosophy is Wittgenstein supposedly threatening Karl Popper with a poker. I can't help but feel that the 'story' of philosophy would somehow be lessened without it. Wittgenstein is, more or less, the declared winner today, but I suspect to see a Popper resurgence in the near future.

In a different vein, isn't Patton more interesting for the man he was and perhaps integral to his exploits on the battlefield than for what he should have been?

quote:
There is a difference between laughing with and laughing at. Of course it's a classic Machiavellian device to employ so if the minister just needed to rally the troops it's much easier to line them up against something than for something.


Yes, it is. Yet, the line between 'laughing with' and 'laughing at' is a difficult one to draw. I want to make the same distinction here as I made with sites. There is more than one type of conversation and none of them should be a standard model. Problems do occur when people confuse one conversation for another, that's the risk, but I see no reason that we shouldn't take the risk unless you want to paper over diversity or difference in a Adam Sandler view of harmony (Think Big Daddy.)

I stuck in Bruno with Galileo because I wanted to end with a quote that he reportedly said before he was executed. I think it applies to anyone who fears judgement in general(from yourself or in hearing it from others to other people):

quote:
Perchance your fear in passing judgment on me is greater than mine in receiving it.


Local Rebel
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41 posted 04-04-2004 12:06 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ah, finally Brad...Thank you....   I think we have a common frame of reference with which to work.  (notice how I didn't end a sentence a preposition with this time?)

quote:
I've never thought and nor do I think Ron thinks that PIP is a microcosm for a liberal society.



This and your analogy of the difference between site rules is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say we have a difference in expectations.  I have no idea what Ron thinks -- but, it is probably no accident that the standards of conduct he expects at this site ARE congruous with what my expectations are from 21st Century Christians.  

That we can have the kind of substantive discussions we do, and sites that don't have these kind of standards don't, is exactly my point.  We live in a world of all kinds of bigotry.  It's unfortunate that we might have need for a Patton here and there. People are dying all over the globe over religious bigotry right now.

Morality, spirituality, eschatology, afterlife, -- none of these philosophies are unique to the Christian religion.  I'm an admirer too of Confucianism -- and there is no doubt the 'Golden Rule' very much predates the Christian message and is present there as well as in other philosophies.  When someone comes to me complaining that this or that person said something bad about them or doesn't like them -- I find it an effective salve to bring out Master Kung Fu Tse's story of the student who asked the master what it said about a man that everyone liked him -- and the response was -- not enough -- it is enough to say that the good people like him and the bad one's do not.  

Enter then, the Christian philosophy, even bad people like their friends and children -- love your enemies too.

There is a time and place for satire -- and appropriate targets and inappropriate ones.  Anyone who enters the public arena and tries to influence the scope of the government is fair game.  I have no problem with lampooning individuals for their own actions (or inaction).  In the seventies Dumb Pollack jokes were popular.  I laughed at them.  Some friends of mine who were Polish were offended.  I didn't understand why.  It was JUST a JOKE.  Right?  Wrong.  SNL can lampoon individual politicians, actors, or even a religious figure like Falwell or Jackson (because they are in the public arena) and it's funny.  Not funny would be lampooning African Americans.  Funny would be lampooning the stereotyping of African Americans.  Funny, and effective commentary, is Meathead and Archie Bunker together -- if one of them had been painted as virtuous and intelligent while making the other a moronic ideologue it would not have been funny nor lasted as long as it did.

The science fair project is a ruse to sucker punch someone who clicks on the page that I posted -- where they can really stick it to the Christian.  Given the amount of effort that was put into that site -- the amount of hatred in its author(S) is regretful.  

Free speech is free speech.  Christians have a mandate to be 'leaven unto the world'.  The welcome sign out front is not the venue for anything that couldn't pass PIP muster.
Brad
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42 posted 04-05-2004 12:10 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wow, this has become much more interesting than I had first imagined.

Two quick points:

1. I concede that it may have been and inappropriate venue, a welcoming board, for telling the joke. Get enough aetheists (Why do I prefer the 'ae' instead of 'a' -- I don't know) together and someone is bound to be offended. Nothing follows from being an aetheist.

2. Polish jokes were funny, but not because they were 'polish'. Slide 'American' (Ever heard and American joke from a Canadian?) in there and they're still funny. I suspect that the best jokes are ultimately about ourselves -- the ethnic group is just a placeholder.

The danger, of course, is that some people take them seriously. I used to love French jokes, I don't anymore.
serenity blaze
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43 posted 04-05-2004 12:27 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm adding a quick "wow" too.

Because earlier I was confused as to why it bothered me--and "damned rude"? wasn't quite apt enough.

Reb is right, yet again.

Christianity, the part that I understand and embrace as a code of conduct, was muddied by that "joke."

And that is exactly what "irked" me.

thanks againk, Reb...
Opeth
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44 posted 04-05-2004 07:01 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth is that your composition?"

~ Nope. Those were lyrics from the song, Evilangelist, by the now defunct, Extreme.

"I'm interpreting the gist of your opening comment to be retaliatory for something .. but I'm not sure what???"

~ No, not at all... or at least was not intended to be so. Your title and original post caused me to think and write what I wrote. That is all.
  
"But, I'm glad you've shown the restraint to not ever act on that urge."

~ lol... Me too!

"You sleep in the night yet the night and the silent water still so dark."

berengar
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45 posted 04-05-2004 08:30 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

I read that science fair spoof and my initial bemusement soon morphed into hilarity.  Now, was that site the fruit of hatred?  Well, I suppose if a Baptist comedian set up a site lampooning atheists with equal wit, and the said atheists were not overly offended, then hatred would not be the prime motivator.  People who laugh at each other, and (most especially) laugh at themselves may find it somewhat difficult to get around to killing afterward.  A little doze of self-mockery keeps the wheels of sanity turning. Lest we drown in our self-righteousness (like the polish goldfish).
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46 posted 04-05-2004 07:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Serenity girl, your comment was MY point. Christianity was not muddied by that joke. It was one guy trying to be clever, that's all. To spread it out to all of Christianity is not only one hell of a stretch, it's invalid, unless you are saying that any act committed by any member of any organization will paint that organization with the colors of whatever comment or action was made. Is that really fair to the Christians that considered it in bad taste? They weren't asked to participate in its creation nor were they asked to endorse it. It was ONE guy, nothing more....is it right to villify an entire religion? Is the sky really falling?
Local Rebel
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47 posted 04-05-2004 07:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Self-deprecating humor is fine berengar.  Laughing at ourselves is great.  The problem with the Objective Ministries site isn't necessarily the Science Fair Project itself but the rest of it -- in particular pages like the one I posted above.  Not to mention the whole Shutdown Landover Baptist campaign http://www.landoverbaptist.org/    where they've created an entirely different spoof site to be at war against.  Was it developed by Conservative Christians lampooning themselves?  I don't know -- but if they really wanted to be funny, and not just mean, they would have developed a spoof evolutionist site to be at war with and made a mockery of the other side of the argument.

I laugh at myself plenty and even spoof myself in this thread http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000957.html I parody Falwell on my own site http://www.geocities.com/nighthawke700/falwell.htm I think it falls into the fair game category as I described above.  A gansta rapper can use the N word all he wants and nobody is going to say anything about it.  If I use it though -- nobody is going to laugh.  That's just the way it is.

There are plenty of things that I'd like to laugh at -- things that are tempting to do in life -- but, we just can't act on all those urges and have to show some restraint like our friend Opeth.    

So Brad -- how do you drive an American crazy?  Put him in an oval office and tell him to find the weapons of mass destruction    

Deer, confining the scope of responsibility for this particular action to 'one guy' is probably not a very good description -- that sign represented a lot of guys -- and gals -- everyone who is a member of that particular congregation.  Does it mean that all Christianity believes that?  Of course not.. but, I beleive we've had conversations before talking about 'the ugly American' abroad -- he isn't us -- but -- to those he's in front of -- he is.  So, you're right.. and Blazey is too.  
Local Rebel
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48 posted 04-05-2004 07:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A point I really didn't make clear just then -- the Objective Ministries spoof mocks the tenets of Christianity itself -- they are mocking the religion itself -- which is what I consider to be inflamatory and over the line.

What I'm doing with Falwell is lampooning the political involvement of an organization that just happens to be religious.  I'm not making fun of anyone believing in the tenets of Christianity.
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49 posted 04-05-2004 08:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Can't talk now....going through "don't tell blonde jokes" withdrawal..
 
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