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Passions in Poetry

Do we need to go to church?

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Goldenrose
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0 posted 03-09-2004 05:49 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

When i go down to visit my friends house we often sit while drinking tea and talk about all sorts of things, about the world and every kind of topic.
We were discussing about religion, and i said that people do not have to go to church to recieve the love of God.
He goes to church himself but i do not, and he totally agreed with me that you do not have to go to church to be loved uncondtionaly by God.

I would defy anyone anywhere that i have as much and maybe more love for God than anyone who goes to church regularly.
When my time on this earth comes to an end, i will be treated in the same way as a bishop or even a pope, because God does not descriminate.
As each new day passes my love for God gets stronger, it has to because as another day dawns i become closer to the kingdom of heaven, as i get older and therfore reduce my chances of living, day by day.

The point of having people like priests and clergymen of any denomination is something that is lost on me.
Everybody at some time in their life has sinned, there is only one that is without sin and that is God.His immaculate love for his children is the purest and perfect form of love there is.
Priests and clergymen are only akin to promoters of God on earth, but if you TRULY belivee in the word of the Lord you do not have to go to church.

My love for God is total, i know that i do not have to even read a bible, because i am one of his children.

He is my creator and my love for him knows no bounds, i look forward to the day when he welcomes me, as a shepherd would welcome a straying sheep within his flock and bathe for eternity within his immaculate love.

Goldenrose.
muted
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1 posted 03-09-2004 06:02 AM       View Profile for muted   Email muted   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for muted

though my path is different than yours...
i suppose church and the bible and such are there to teach...yes, of course love can be just as strong without these things..your faith is enormous
but knowledge is also important for understading further the history of your path.
but no matter what, i believe, that if each of us live for a purpose, then that purpose will reward us in the end

but im only one voice
Goldenrose
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2 posted 03-09-2004 06:23 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

You are entitled to your opinion just as much as anyone else Dawn, but my friend has talked to his priest and he says that you should NOT stay at home and refrain from going to church, but is he saying that because of HIS self interest?..ie ''he would say that wouldnt he..if nobody went to church he would be out of a job''...i think the word of the Lord..his teachings..and the life and history of the world are important....but why do we have to have someone telling us how to pray?..and what to pray about?....you might as well go to a library and read the bible there..you get the same spiritual upliftment.

I think that if we realy thought about it we could TOTALLY dispense with churches and priests of all kinds and sell off all of their assets and give their vast wealth to the people who relay need it...not stick it in vast vaults around the world and horde it while people suffer and die...if all the religions of the world were not willing to give ALL of their money up willingly..they should be made to give it up...there are people who are dying from nothing more than hunger and starvation...and they need money to survive NOW..but the clergy will still have vast wealth tommorow, next week and for a long tike in the future....so i ask this..are they really representing God?..i trhink not, God cares nothing for monetary gain..or material riches..only Love and life..

''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity''

serenity blaze
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3 posted 03-09-2004 07:37 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I can't say what "we" need to do--but my humble opinion is not that "I" need to go to church--I need to become a church.

LoveBug
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4 posted 03-09-2004 08:55 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Hi everyone!

Personally, I agree that you don't HAVE to go to church to find God. That's the point of Him.. you don't have to go into a place built by human hands, for just being in His creation can bring us into communion with Him. I think that the Bible is important.. I see it as the living Word of God.

I do think that going to church can be good, however. Unfortunately, today it is hard to find a church that is truely good and uncorrupt... I guess I shouldn't say 'going to church', really. It's more about fellowship. Jesus said when there are two or three gathered in His Name that He is in their midst. I feel God just as much when I talk about Him to others, just a couple of friends, or even in the e-mail of a Christian friend from home. I do think that fellowship is important. Not nessisary, but important.

Churches do good things, but I guess my point is that many of them are ran by men, and not by God. We know our own hearts, however.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

berengar
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5 posted 03-09-2004 10:06 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Serenity

Great point.  Should we attend church?? The church is nothing more or less than the community of Christians, it is not a matter of bums on pews, and the individual believer is like an ember in the fire.  Take the ember (or individual) out of the fire (read church, the community) and it will either blacken and die, cut off from its nutritional source, or start another fire (depending, I suppose, on its vitality and the surrounding environment, including the presence of oxygen - read Holy Spirit, perhaps).  Does this somewhat convoluted analogy help answer the question Goldenrose?
jbouder
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6 posted 03-09-2004 10:25 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Berengar:

I like your analogy.  If we answer Goldenrose's question in the affirmative, I believe the next question we need to ask of ourselves is what characteristics should we look for in a church?  Finding the right church is certainly as important (if not more important) than the realization that we ought to go in the first place.

Jim
Ron
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7 posted 03-09-2004 11:22 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Do we need to share our poetry to be poets? And if not, why do we?
Janet Marie
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8 posted 03-09-2004 11:42 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

*smiling at Ron's enlightenment*

As always...I learn in the church of the wizard.
Sunshine
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9 posted 03-09-2004 11:47 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

  I go to the pasturelands to find my poetry; and while in the pasture I care for, I also find the hand of God.
Opeth
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10 posted 03-09-2004 12:22 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

You ask the question in your title, but don't ask it your reply. After reading your reply, I would of titled this thread, "We Don't Need To Go To Church"

~ Chuch = ekklesia = not a building, but a group of christian people gathered together for worshipping their lord.

~ It is better to keep away from the false churches rather than attend them.

~ According to the bible there are lost sheep on their own out in this world, just as there are sheep being led by false shepards.

~ If one is to proclaim to be a christian, I don't see how that person can refrain from gathering with the church on the Sabbath.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

berengar
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11 posted 03-09-2004 08:54 PM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Ron,
Good comparison.  A church and poetry forum have many parallels;
1) a site of affirmation
2) a place where one can bounce ideas around, including (and, in a church, necessarily) interpretation of scripture - including taking valued advice from people well versed in poetic techniques, logic, hermeneutics or whatever.
3) a social conclave of people seeking similiar things
4) a place of occasional faction and controversy, where discussion is the key to resolution (or schism, if it comes to that).
There are no doubt more.
Opeth,
If one is a christian - which you have of course made plain that you are not - then I would contend that one is a member of Church (the community of believers) by definition.  This does not necessarily imply, however, that one attends A church on the sabbath - or were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label??
vlraynes
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12 posted 03-09-2004 09:00 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes


Karen?...

Amen!
LoveBug
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13 posted 03-10-2004 04:43 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label??"

True!

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Goldenrose
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Posts 3637


14 posted 03-10-2004 05:07 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Maybe i should rename my thread as ''Do we Need church'' per se...i let other people have their say, but to me i can see the point of going to church if you want to meet with people who share you religious views, but if you just want to gather in the name of the lord and have jesus's company coming amongst you...do as jesus did and go to the montains..use the churches ...all of them..cathedrals as well... to help the poeple without homes to go to...the rich of this world get richer and poor get poorer..if the church wanted to put itself on a better footing with the people it would redress this balance...but it does not..it carries on putting it's head in the sand i saying ''im alright jack'' ''dont come to us for money..we cannot live like kings AND give money to the needy''....

Again i say do we need curches...per se?

Goldenrose.

''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity''

Denise
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15 posted 03-10-2004 06:01 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
I think that if we realy thought about it we could TOTALLY dispense with churches and priests of all kinds and sell off all of their assets and give their vast wealth to the people who relay need it...not stick it in vast vaults around the world and horde it while people suffer and die...if all the religions of the world were not willing to give ALL of their money up willingly..they should be made to give it up...


I would say that your assertion here is quite frightening, to me at least, Goldenrose. Who would you have to be the ones doing the "making" of these institutions to give up their wealth? And why stop there? How about businesses as well? And all proceeds that anyone derives from working for a living? It sure sounds like communism to me.

I think a thorough reading of the New Testament will give you the sense that giving is voluntary, there is nothing forced about it, nor do I think you can find any justifiation within it that a forced taking of another's assets is permissable, by any stretch of the imagination. And any points that you do see that apply as a general life principle, as I've mentioned to you before, are always to be directed to ourselves personally, before we attempt to 'correct' anyone else.

I think we all need to get our eyes off of 'others' wealth, and tend to our own matters as best we can.
Goldenrose
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16 posted 03-10-2004 06:25 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

My argument can in no way be construed as communism..i am not saying that people should not worship God i am saying do we need to worship him in a church..if you read the start of this thread i clearly said that i love God as much as anyone else..if not more..i just do not see the need to go to church...

To be communistic is to be athiest...they do not believe in God..so your claim that it is communism is seriously flawed....

I just think that the sort of power that church leaders exhert over people is far too much..this is one of the reasons innocent people do not report serious sexual allegations..they think that the priests MUST be right..if they are abusing them...because their power has become absolute....it shapes nations..just look at Ireland..everything that even their government do, has to ratified first by the church..they virually run Ireland..again i say ....you don't have to listen to a priest to truly believe in the word of God..i do not and i am the embodiment of a person at peace with Gods love and law...

Goldenrose.

''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity''

Denise
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17 posted 03-10-2004 06:47 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't believe that one needs to go to a church to believe in or worship God either Goldenrose, not at all. But I also don't think that we should abolish institutions because we personally don't agree with them or personally don't have a need for them. Some people do agree with them and/or have a need for them.

And aside from your not being an aethist, your views are definitely of a communistic flavor, in the seizing of other's wealth for the so-called betterment of society. But that being said, I in no way questioned your devotion to, and love of God.

God deals with people on an individual level, I think, for the most part. He will have to reach those who are entrenched in the grip of mind-controlling institutions. I see our part as holding up the light to a better way. I don't see our part as destroyers of those institutions that we don't believe in.  
Opeth
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18 posted 03-10-2004 09:33 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth,
If one is a christian... then I would contend that one is a member of Church (the community of believers) by definition.  This does not necessarily imply, however, that one attends A church on the sabbath - or were christians imprisoned in gulags and suchlike no longer worthy of the label??"


~ Reread my reply. I stated that there will be lost sheep away from the flock=ekklesia. So, to answer your question... no.  However, for those christians who are not separated from the flock, the holy spirit of God will enable them to know and understand the 4th commandment, and to keep it, of course.

LoveBug
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19 posted 03-10-2004 05:18 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I thought I'd offer this passage to this discussion as well.

John 4:20-21,23: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Essorant
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20 posted 03-10-2004 05:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Whereso you your religion bear
a church is always kept right there.
sea_of_okc
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21 posted 03-10-2004 08:54 PM       View Profile for sea_of_okc   Email sea_of_okc   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for sea_of_okc

One certainly does not need to go to church because God already gave us all the answers inside. But I will say going to a gathering of true believers is a good way to renew the spirit just absorbing the spiritual energy in the place. Sorry but any church with music like a funeral dirge and congregants that move about like extras from the Night of the Living Dead just doesn't do much for me. Also speaking with other seekers of the truth can help you see things in a different way and help you discover hidden truths.

There is only one God and it one of humankind's greatest embarassments that we kill each other over what to name Him.

Peace and love all
Goldenrose
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22 posted 03-11-2004 05:01 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Denise..you are still insisting that my views are of ''a communistic flavour'' how am i being communistic when all i want is for the church to show the compassion that it says it has in abundance, and give all of its vast wealth to the starving and the sick?....If the church want people to give to the needy they should start the ball rolling...and when i said they should be forced to give their wealth...there are different kinds of force..for instance how about a democratic vote from all of it's parrishoners?.

If all people who want to help make the world a better place are labled as communists....maybe you could argue that someone say like Mother Thereasa is also a communist..beacuse she gave all of the sick within her area everything she had...she is the example that all chuch leaders should follow...poverty...living with the people she is trying to save...with just the basic of clothes...not living in houses with priceless oil paintings on the wall...my goodness that is realy slumming it isn't it?

The leaders of all of the worlds religions should follow Jesus and wear basic robes...not purple silk...and fine hand stitched clothing....the vatican alone could solve all of the world poverty problems at a stroke with all of their wealth..but i dont see the removal vans coming in to take their possesions ready for sale...it is just greed on a grand scale and if jesus came back to tommorow he would instruct ALL of the christian religious leaders to sell everything..but then he may be considered to be a communist for forcing them to sell their posesions...LOL....

I do not want to cause any fall outs here..my message is of peace and love for ALL of the people of the world, as humans how can we stand idly by and see other fellow humans suffer and die..when we know we have the wealth to help?..that is all that i am saying.....

Goldenrose.

''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity''

hush
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23 posted 03-11-2004 09:57 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Goldenrose-

The fair distribution on wealth is, at its heart, a communistic principle.

Maybe, first, you should remove the stigma from the word 'communist.' You seem so scared of that word, like its godlessness is going to infect you or something. But, seriously, when you talk about forcing people to give up wealth and distribute it mroe fairly, that's exactly what you are advocating.

Also, I didn't think that having a certain economic standpoint automatically set you up as an atheist? And also- what's so wrong with atheists?

One more point... why is everyone "defining" church as a congregation of Christians? There is more than one type of church, y'know.

This thread is so full of assumptions it astounds me.
GG
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24 posted 03-11-2004 03:02 PM       View Profile for GG   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for GG

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

No we don't need to go to church to be loved by God. And to get to heaven what we need to do is to accept Christ as our saviour AND to live that out. Church is where we're to fellowship and also where we're to pay our tithes. Plus there's the whole added bonus of learning more about Him, maybe even of being convicted of something we may be doing wrong or something we may need to do.

As for reading the Bible... well, Christ himself read the Old Testament and quoted it often. And the New Testament is about Him.. It is God's love letter to us and his instruction for how we're to live, it is God breathed, God inspired...
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If its good enough for God then its good enough for me. If the Bible wasn't to read then He wouldn't have given it to us.

As children of God we have to do more then just love and accept Him. We need to take up our cross and follow Him. (The Bible says this at least five times in just matthew, mark, and luke.) We need to be daily examples of Him and lights for Him. To spread the Gospel. Also as Christians we're accountable for where we make others fall or stumble. If a non-christian sees you not going to church then there's a good chance they'll say church must not be necessary and won't go, even when they need the conviction it could bring (through the Holy Spirit).

True, I know, that there are few churches not entirely filled with hypocrites. But sometimes even the church is where we're to be the biggest light to.

God bless.
Always God's Girl, Alyssa

He was a man of sorrows
...I am a girl of tears.


[This message has been edited by GG (03-11-2004 03:35 PM).]

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