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Passions in Poetry

Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ

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LoveBug
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0 posted 02-24-2004 11:53 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

...what do you think? I plan on seeing it as soon as possible. Personally I think that all Mel Gibson is doing is portraying what is written in the Gospels. I don't feel that anything is anti Semetic.. considering that three of the four Gospels were written by Jewish men, I think it's sort of a rediculous claim. However, I haven't seen the movie. I don't feel like my opinion will change, however.

Christianity is very clear in saying that we are all responsible for Christ's death. He died because we ALL sinned. Also, it is also made clear that Christ couldn't be killed! Christ is God... you can't kill God, nobody can. He gave Himself. Thats the whole point.

I'd like to hear what you all think, though!

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Ringo
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1 posted 02-24-2004 01:49 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I am also going to see the show tomorrow night, and I plan on taking my teenage son to see it this weekend.
Do I feel taht Mel or his movie are anti-semetic? Absolutely not... and none of the Jewish folks that I know feel that way. (Of course, none of them belong to the JADL).
The absolute and total fact of the matter is that the ancient Jews handed Jesus over to be crucified. That is not being judgemental, or anti-semetic. That is stating an historical fact. The same as it is a fact that the German government of the 1930s and 1940s systematically executed the Jews in Europe. That does not mean that anyone who makes a movie about the horrors of the Holocost is anti-German. It is simply a statement and a retelling of the facts.
Were Mel Gibson to be an anti-Semite, he would NEVER have been able to work in Hollywood as long as he has. If there was anti-semetism in his heart or on his mind, he would never have hired a very devout orthodox Jew to portray the mother of Jesus in his movie. I also feel he wouldn't have attempted to physically portray the Jews as accurately as he did. He could have always hired another good looking blue-eyed European to play the part.
If the movie and Mel Gibson were anti-semetic, then why did none of the theological scholars that he hired as technical advisors, and as script advisors call him on it? Why did it take an ultra-liberal religeous organization with lagging membership and its own agenda to speak out?

If the theological myths are true, as I believe them to be, then Jesus had deity-like powers and abilities and could have easily stopped the entire event from happening. Yet he didn't. As I understand it, He died for all of us.. including Jews, Muslims, Athiests, Taoists, Hindus, Shinto's and all of the others. With that in mind, I would make it to be OUR fault... not just the Jews, but also the Christians, and all of the others for whom He died. Anyone who attempts to denegrade this movie for their own purposes dishonors the self-sacrifice that was made 2,000 years ago.

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur
built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

serenity blaze
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2 posted 02-24-2004 03:44 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I don't go see it. It's just too visually bloody for me. The fact that it is the story of Christ doesn't seem to help.

Graphic violence gets filed away in my mind and I have enough trouble sleeping without that sorta imagery filed away in my head.

It's kewl tho. I read the book.
Tais
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3 posted 02-24-2004 04:19 PM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

I will see it, but I don't know when.

I need to find a time which I can go and see if there are still tickets left for those times.

I've always liked movies of Jesus Christ. I saw those old movies of Moses that were filmed long ago...and the Easter movies which have come out in the past.

I don't see the movie as 'bloody'. I see it as an historical event and most of all as a beautiful message. Jesus' spoke words of wisdom, words of justice and peace.

I see our world of today, the politicians, so many people and groups ...as bloody. The wars, the pornography, the greed, the murders, the hunger, the lack of justice and peace...that is what I see as being bloody.

To me...this movie is going to be very beautiful and I know I will cry tears of sadness and tears of joy...but most of all, I think I will feel 'rejuvenated' and 'spiritually renewed' as I do when I see those old movies about Jesus and the bible stories.

The Passion of Christ is a true passion...and I hope the movie transmits that.

I've heard good things, very good things of some poeple who saw the review. These people are friends...so I know they are telling me the truth.

But the media only says things which are convenient to their bias way of thinking...so I don't go by what the media says.

Yes...I will definitely see the movie: "The Passion of Christ".

Tais
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4 posted 02-24-2004 06:02 PM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

EVERYONE should see this movie...you walk away a changed person...and I think that is what Mel intended the movie to do.

As for blood and violence....I don't see the point everyone else is trying to make...its no more gore etc.. than all the scary movies people go to watch or games people play with the computer or game systems.

When you tell the truth about Jesus and what he suffered you can't tone it down..it has to be told like it is...how it happened..and Mel Gibson did a great job of it.

I agree with Lovebug...I didn't see anything suggesting it was the Jews that did it..nothing of that nature was overbearing..

From what I have heard there is alot of gret miracalous things that has happened before and during the making of the movie...One..I heard that before making the movie..Mel Gibson was about to kill himself and was saved and felt to make the movie..two....a lady came from out of nowhere and told Mel and the crew that she was sent by God to pray for them...(she had no idea about the movie) ..also there were several healings that happened during the making of it. Mel has spent 30,000,000,00. of his own money to make it.
I have heard nothing but great reviews...I recommended that this ine should not be missed!

It really allows you to see and feel what Christ Jesus did for YOU..for us..for humanity..knowing he could have just called all of heavens angels to stop it..but he took on our pain..our suffering...he bore our sins..because he loves us..no love is greater than this..that lays down his life for you...PERFECT love....

Makes us all question our purpose here on earth..how selfish we are...how much we need to serve Christ and not ourselves...

Yes it makes you look at yourself..down deep and you walk away from the movie..with a new..different feeling about your life and the lifes of others in the world..

~ARH
love and hugs


Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH
2writeis2be
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5 posted 02-25-2004 04:07 PM       View Profile for 2writeis2be   Email 2writeis2be   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 2writeis2be

I think I'll see that movie when it's out on DVD, mainly because Mel Gibson is HOT. I don't even believe in god, but shows what a good actor he is cuz he lures us all in. haha!
Local Rebel
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6 posted 02-25-2004 10:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I like Mel.  Like his work.  Understand why he made this movie.  Question how a cinematic portrayal of the passion as outlined in the Synoptic Gospels is specifically any more anti-semetic than say -- The Patriot or Bravehart - were anti-Anglo.

I think the attempts to smear Mel and set him at odds with his father are abhorrent.

A couple of other things I do have questions about though;

Is the reaction on the evangelical side any more appropriate -- specifically -- merchandising the event and claiming this as a tool for evangelism?  

Is there a hint of idolatry in this?

Is a two hour portral of Jesus last 12 hours going to inspire someone to follow the main tenets of Jesus?  Namely -- is it going to incite anyone to love his enemy?  

If someone doesn't already know who Jesus was and what he stood for -- how is this particular, graphically violent, portion of his life going to make any difference?

But, yes, I intend to see the film and look forward to it as well -- although it may not be any time soon.
berengar
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7 posted 02-26-2004 12:58 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

I haven't yet seen the movie and I don't have the scriptural references at hand, but here's my two-tuppence worth;
If Gibson wanted to avoid charges of anti-semitism, why did he have the Jewish crowd baying for Jesus' blood and taking the blame on themselves and their descendants, rather than the high-priests who - according to John's gospel - were the ones saying this?  Is it Mel's reading of Mark's gospel and then conflating it with the high priests' utterances??
Anyway, this is all no more than bemused assertion.
LoveBug
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8 posted 02-26-2004 01:30 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

In the book of Matthew, the crowd was attributed with the line "Let His blood be on us, and our children".

Matthew was Jewish. I'm sure that it HURT him to write such a thing. He was trying to provide an accurate depiction of what happened, however, and wanted to put in every detail, no matter how painful, in order to allow others to see what happened.

I believe that, in his own way, that is also what Mel Gibson is doing.

Jesus knew all of that would happen. He knew that He would be hated and despised by many many people. Not just some Jewish people... (remember, a HUGE majority of the first Christians were Jewish!) think of all of the people who persecute Christians today. These persecutors are of all races and creeds. They are hating and despising Jesus as well. What was said had nothing to do with a particular race or people...

Jesus gave His blood to us. He knew that, yes, His blood would be put upon us ALL. WE ALL caused it.. but we are all CLEANSED by it.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

berengar
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9 posted 02-26-2004 03:24 AM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

LoveBug

My point of view is that being persecuted does not necessarily correspond to virtue or correctness - this rule can apply to any persecuted group.  Yes, Christians are persecuted in various places, just as Jews have been persecuted since the Year Dot wherever they went; it does not validate their creed - we should look to other yardsticks to measure the worth of a creed (eg: did the founder provide a virtuous code and rise from the dead?).  Yes, Jesus was persecuted too (and in a very graphic way), but so too in one sense was Karl Marx and the founder of the Bahai faith (tortured to death by persian muslim clerics).  The chief virtue of Christianity does not, I would claim, reside in its aura of 'victimisation'.
Tais
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10 posted 02-26-2004 06:15 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

I don't think it's anti-semetic at all.

It's history, a true story.

Why would the truth be wrong?

In no way, do I consider the Jews responsible for Jesus' death.

It is was in the scriptures, said by the prophets, that this would happen. It was 'planned' to happen...in order to save the souls of us humans.

That's the whole reason of Jesus' death and ressurrection.

The blood and violence, only shows a reality of what Jesus suffered. It's the truth. Why hide the truth?

If we are to 'cover-up' certain things which is history, which really happened, we are saying that we should live in a fantasy world, where we should believe in lies.

The Passion shows what happened at that time.

To say it is bloody and violent and not looking at the 'reason' for all that suffering and not looking at Jesus' life, which led to this suffering, is absurd.Our world is bloody and violent today...just look around us and we will see this...and the bloodiness and violence today, has no reason to be.

The Hollocaust movies show much more violence, blood and cruelty to us, and no one complains about that? It protrays all Germans as evil people. Which they are not.
It rarely shows the German people who helped the people escape from the Natzis.
Except for the movie "Shindlers list", which I thought was a great movie.

But why doesn't any complain about the Holocaust movies as being anti-German?

The Holocaust was horrible. But it did happen. And people need to know the truth, so I think the Holocaust movies needed to be shown. Even though it is bloody and violent.

In this same line of thinking, the Passion also was true, and needs to be shown.

And Jesus was Jewish too. So it shows a wonderful Jewish prophet, who suffered to save the world. And it also shows that the Romans made Jesus suffer and the Romans had the last word on Jesus' trial.

Some people just can't stand to hear the word Jesus sometimes. Why? Is it a conscious thing?

What about Buddah, Gandhi and other wonderful prophets and people?

I think that Jesus' name should be honoured at least, as Jesus' being a wonderful person, even for those who have no religion of belief. What did he do wrong, which makes some people hate even the fact that His name is mentioned?

Well...to me...as a Christian, Jesus is the Messiah. And remembering what He suffered for all of us, is important to remember.

Tais
Tais
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11 posted 02-26-2004 07:28 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

I also forgot to mention that I agree with some of the posts here, which said that lots of people, of all races and religions were persecuted in the past and still are.

We humans have some type of 'evil' streak inside us, which makes us persecute others sometimes.

So yes...many others died and suffered for the name of goodness. Or died and suffered because of prejudice or racism.

The past, should teach us lessons. But we never learn, and continue to be prejudice and racist.

A movie like the Passion, shows how our world does have evil and good. But evil and good is NOT of a specific race or religion. It is inside people, of any race and religion.
In this movie, it shows evil in the form of a group of people, but also shows that that same group of people also have good. Jesus was Jewish, so were his followers and others who didn't want Jesus to die, but were not his followers either, and there were some of those who persecuted him...but some good were also Roman, and some Romans were also evil.
Judas was Jesus' follower, but betryed him. So, right there, it shows that it is NOT a specific type of person, it could be anyone.

Our duty is to see that racism and prejudice does not happen.

In the movie, it shows the truth. Jesus and His followers wanted good to prevail in the world. But as there is good, there is also evil to try to combat the good. Our world is made of opposites and contrasts. And evil and good is one of them.
It's a constant battle in the world and within ourselves.

What is good? What is bad?
That is up to each one to define.
To me, any destruction of the human race or of any life form, would be bad.
So racism and prejudice would be bad.

To blame a certain race or religion for the persecution of people is wrong...in my opinon.

There are good and bad in all races and religions. And there are fantatics also who make the religions look bad.

The passion is a true story, it happened in History, and maybe even happened more brutally than the movie shows.

The fact that Jesus was good, did good, taught goodness, already shows us that we should not blame anyone for this. We are 'all' to blame for all of the deaths of good people.

Why?

The simple fact that it is also happening today, and we don't do anything to try to make a difference, shows us how much we are to blame.

To fight for justice, peace and goodness is an obligation of us all...it's not a choice.

We cannot complain about things that happen around us, if we didn't at least try to make a difference. It will continue to happen, if we leave it up to others.

The passion shows us this. Jesus died for us. Whether people have a belief or not, that is why Jesus accepted this destiny of suffering.

So to give oneself for others, to save others, and to make a difference is the message which The Passion shows. And reality is that people will always try to stop the good actions of others. The heros end up dying, but not in vain.

It's up to us, to win the battle within ourselves first, and then try to make a difference in the battle of the world of evil vs good.

And we look back at all of the heroes, the prophets, the good people who died in the name of justice and goodness. And we should take their courage as an example of how we can make a difference.

But we all need to care first. And not wait until it comes knocking at our doors...because it will, eventually. And when it does, it might be too late.

Tais  
Opeth
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12 posted 02-26-2004 08:29 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

(Reading the replies and feeling like Roger Rabbit in hiding and ready to burst as Judge Doom uses his cane to tap on the wall, shave-and-a-hair-cut-...)
Cpat Hair
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13 posted 02-26-2004 08:36 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

(laughing at Opeth)

tah tah da ta da tah tah


LoveBug
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14 posted 02-26-2004 09:00 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I think you missed what I was trying to say...

I was saying that some Jewish people were involved in the perseution and death of Christ. So were some Romans. Christians are persecuted today by all different races. So, all of these different races and creeds that persecute Christians are persecuting Christ again.

My point is that race has nothing to do with it. Some people did a certain thing in history, thats all. Europeans slaughtered American Indians, but you don't see western movies being accused of being "anti European"

And again I say: we are ALL guilty of Christ's death

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Opeth
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15 posted 02-26-2004 09:08 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

shave-and-a-hair-cut...

Tais
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16 posted 02-26-2004 10:00 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

What does 'shave and hair cut' mean?

I am sorry, but I don't understand.

I read the posts, I agree with Lovebug, and agree with some other posts...

But what does "shave and hair cut' have to do with the post at all?

I am lost with this statement...completely...please explain?

Is it a term which I don't know of? I am very lost with some English statements sometimes because I've never heard them before.

I didn't watch Roger Rabbit...I wasn't really interested in watching it, I don't like cartoons that much. But does Roger Rabbit have a message which has to do with the movie , "The Passion"?
If it does, I would love someone to explain it to me...as I see no connection at all with a 'cartoon' and real life story movie.

Tais  

Thanks  
Cpat Hair
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17 posted 02-26-2004 11:09 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Tais,
roger rabbit has nothing to do with anything other than Opeth's remark intending to say he was restraining himself from joining the conversation. shave and a haircut was a tune that in the roger rabbit movie set roger off... Opeth was sinply saying he felt like reading the posts was the same for him... he was almost unable to refrain himself..

my comment simply meant to pick at Opeth in a funny sort of way.

LoveBug
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18 posted 02-26-2004 11:41 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Opeth, why not join in? It's not gonna hurt anyone!

If you disagree with me.. thats alright, it'll be fun I like a good debate.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Tais
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19 posted 02-26-2004 11:51 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

Oh...ok!

Thanks for explaining. I sometimes...often, don't understand statements in English because of my Portuguese background (Brazilian).

Well..I learned a new statement today.

Again, thanks for explaining it to me.

And Opeth, please do join in. Opinions are very good for everyone to read. Not everyone has the same opinion and we all learn with different opinions.

Tais
Cpat Hair
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20 posted 02-26-2004 12:09 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

LMAO...
careful what you ask for... if Opeth takes you up on the joining in, it may need to be moved to Philosophy forum and indeed become a debate of epic proportions....

shave and a haircut.... two bits..

Opeth
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21 posted 02-26-2004 12:55 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"careful what you ask for... if Opeth takes you up on the joining in, it may need to be moved to Philosophy forum and indeed become a debate of epic proportions....

~ How true that statement is!
Denise
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22 posted 02-26-2004 08:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
If Gibson wanted to avoid charges of anti-semitism, why did he have the Jewish crowd baying for Jesus' blood and taking the blame on themselves and their descendants, rather than the high-priests who - according to John's gospel - were the ones saying this?


Berengar, just curious, how would having the high-priests saying the line instead of the crowd saying the line insulate against charges of anti-semitism? They were Jewish too.

I also don't think conflating was necessary. If one account credits the crowd and another credits the high-priests, I'd take it that both groups uttered the statement, and each writer perhaps recorded what he heard and/or what made the greater impression on him at the time.

I think the anti-semitic charges are groundless. It is history, after all, and not just as recorded in the Gospels. Secular history also records it. But even if the Jews of that time could have been held particularly culpable, even if Christ had not said, "no one takes my life, but I lay it down of my own accord", even if we were not all responsible, even if Christ had not said, "Father FORGIVE them, they know not what they do", we could no more rightly blame the Jews of today for something their ancestors did almost 2,000 years ago, than we can rightly blame anybody of today for atrocities committed by their ancestors.  

But I can understand the fears of those who have experienced anti-semitism at the hands of the Church in the not too distant past, when the 'official' Church position was not that "we are all responsible", but did actually blame the Jews, and the unspoken implication was not officially dealt with until the last Vatican Council, I believe. So I think we have to be sensitive to those who are sensitive about it, because there is a history there too. Which is why Mel Gibson did edit out that part of the movie, if I heard him correctly, during a recent interview.  
LoveBug
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23 posted 02-26-2004 09:43 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I'm going to try to get into a theatre tomorrow... but I was reading about the movie and it also includes a scene where many Jewish leaders are saying things like "this is unfair, this isn't right"....

So, unlike what a lot of people are trying to say, there are indeed two sides to the story.

I guess people go into something like this with their mind set on seeing something so much that they do see it... even if it isn't there.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

berengar
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24 posted 02-26-2004 10:00 PM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Love Bug
"Christians are persecuted today by all different races. So, all of these different races and creeds that persecute Christians are persecuting Christ"


You're right, race has nothing to do with it, and may I add that races do not 'persecute' Christians, it's a meaningless term - or do you wish to argue otherwise?

Denise

"Berengar, just curious, how would having the high-priests saying the line instead of the crowd saying the line insulate against charges of anti-semitism? They were Jewish too."

I love indulging your curiosity.  It has little to do with the 'truth' of the matter and everything to do with perception.  The high priests have been seen in a bad light anyway, as Machiavellian scoundrels and playing political games, as some people expect of priest-politicians.  But to hear the common jewish people utter such lines reinforces, in some prejudiced minds, the notion that 'all' jews bear the responsibility for Christ's death and not just an amoral faction, and thence the need for discriminating between 'good jews and 'bad' jews becomes harder to do. As you say, we are not disputing the record, but the 'spin' that's put on it matters - therefore it's just as well Gibson chose to leave that line untranslated.
Lol
 
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