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Passions in Poetry

Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ

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Denise
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100 posted 03-03-2004 09:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't know Hush, I guess I would just describe the Passion and death of Christ as love in action, as in "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."(John 15:13)

I just see the movie as a depiction of that love in action, the focal point, and the preordained fulfillment of his life and ministry, the very reason for his life and ministry.

I guess it could depend on one's point of view when seeing the movie. I guess I just have a hard time visualizing a person even going to the see movie and having never heard that Christ died for humanity out of love.

I could understand someone not being able to see beyond the violence if they had never heard of Christ and his sufferings and death on behalf of mankind out of love, "For God so loved the world..."(John 3:16) (but even then, if I remember correctly, wasn't it that particular verse that was emblazoned across the screen at the very beginning of the film? If not it was a similar one declaring God's love in preparation for what the viewer would soon be seeing, it may have even been John 15:13. Tacky afterthought? I'm really at a loss as to how you could have walked away with that impression, unless you missed the opening and the several other references throughout the movie), but I feel pretty sure that most people who see it have at least that basic understanding, not even taking into account that the meaning was clearly depicted. Now whether they really care or not, or whether they actually believe it or not, I think the message would still be pretty clear though, regardless. They might not be emotionally moved by the film in quite the same way, but that's different than not getting the meaning of the film and seeing it only as a portrayal of violence, at least to my way of thinking.

And if I've actually done Gibson's directing for him, unintentionally or otherwise, I'd better be getting a check in the mail!

Opeth
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101 posted 03-04-2004 07:03 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

[Off-topic post removed - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (03-04-2004 07:43 AM).]

LoveBug
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102 posted 03-04-2004 04:02 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Exactly what I was trying to say, Denise.. thank you very much, although the verse at the beginning was from Isaiah. Jesus is depicted in the movie as saying the words from John 15:13 though.

LR, I believe the gentleman said that that is how HE takes the gospels. Just because he goes to University (well, I do as well.. hmm..) doesn't mean that he has a greater understanding of the gospels as opposed to every other Christian..

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
Denise
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103 posted 03-04-2004 07:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks, LoveBug, yeah you're right it was a verse from Isaiah, which one in particular I don't quite remember, but that's one of the reasons I want to see it again, to nail down all those little details that my brain didn't quite retain! Was it the "he was bruised for our iniquities" one? What is that chapter and verse number, if you remember?
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104 posted 03-04-2004 07:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You're ascribing an argument to me I haven't made... in fact.. I haven't made an argument on this entire thread.

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105 posted 03-04-2004 09:20 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"If you want to try to convince the faculty of Notre Dame that they don't understand Orthodox Christianity I can get you their e-mails."---didn't you say that, LR??

Also, when I asked people what they thought of when they think of the word "Passion", I KNEW why it was used in the title.. but I was refering to the common vernacular use of it.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Local Rebel
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106 posted 03-04-2004 09:26 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That is not an argument.
LoveBug
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107 posted 03-04-2004 10:43 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I never said it was, but can't I comment on your statement? Thats what discussion forums are for...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Local Rebel
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108 posted 03-04-2004 11:39 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Certainly -- but I didn't say the faculty of Notre Dame knows more about Christianity than anyone else.

What do you think the significance is though of the opinion of Notre Dame professors in regard to the topic?
hush
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109 posted 03-05-2004 12:06 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Denise, I totally can see your point of view. But I think that's the difference between already having a passion for Christ and not.

It's essentially a movie about the climax of a story... and in my opinion, most of it was done as a climax, from a technichal standpoint.

I understand that Christ's life isn't really able to be neatly packaged into a 2-hour cinematic feature. And I can respect that it has to be shown, by different directiors and writers, in different ways, and that most movies about Christ focus on different aspects.

But technically, this may suprise you, but I'd actually compare it to Quentin Tarentino's Kill Bill vol. 1. Very little time spent on background, very violent, very climactic all the way through. I can say that I identified with Uma Thurman's character-- the whole womanhood thing-- and I thought the way he used the loss of a child as her motivation. I was all jazzed up because- hey- it's a sweet, hard-ass woman kung-fu killer, in a more realistic package than is usual for that archetype.

But I didn't so much get attached to her.

I don't want to sound like I hated the Passion- I didn't- I just didn't think it was all it was hyped up to be. And I guess, in the end, that's just a matter of opinion.

Oh, and LoveBug- you are the one who started this thread, so I'd appreciate it if when I make a point you disagree with, you don't just dismiss it with "Think about that." That's really annoying.
And just because the movie has Passion in the title doesn't mean it jibes with everyone's idea of Passion. Titles aren't always literal... I mean, was Magnolia about Magnolias?
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110 posted 03-05-2004 01:59 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

LR, some people would agree with them, but as I said earlier, the suffering and the body of Christ are very much central to the Christian faith. A lot of people have gotten away from that, but that is what the faith is baised on.

Hush, I just wanted you to compare the word "passion" in both of the ways it is used... such as the movie title and also when people say such things like "passionate love". I think that the reason Christ went through His Passion was for His Passionate love for us..

Hehe, thanks for participating, everyone Keep it going if you have more to say... not every say that I get a thread with more than, like, three replies! LOL



Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
Opeth
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111 posted 03-05-2004 02:04 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Well LB, I am out on this one. You asked 3 questions on one of your threads, it was answered by one pip member, and then I answered it too, but I guess my answers were off-topic and were deleted.

It was interesting. I am delighted you enjoyed this movie and that the movie inspired you and your faith.

"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

berengar
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112 posted 03-05-2004 08:33 PM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Denise
That verse you were looking for:
"He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.  Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.  Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him striken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.  But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our inequities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."
Isaiah 53:3-5
Denise
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113 posted 03-05-2004 10:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hush, but how do you feel about Gibson? Maybe that partially influences how you see the film too. My husband deplores Tom Hanks, for some unknown reason. He's missed quite a few good films because of it, in my opinion anyway.

I saw a Quentin Tatentino film once, can't remember the name of it at the moment, quite gorey though, I'll never forget that.

I can see what you are saying about the climactic aspect of the Passion. I guess it does just come down to personal preference whether someone cares for a film with that type of focus or not.

Berengar, thanks! That's one of my favorite verses. So how come I can never remember the "address" I'd like to say that "I won't forget it now", but, of course, I know myself better than that! Thanks again!
hush
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114 posted 03-06-2004 11:31 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Denise... I really don't mind Mel Gibson, I think he's a pretty good actor, actually. However, some of his movies seem to have a very overbearing melodrama attached  (as in We Were Soldiers and The Patriot) and I saw that common thread in the Passion as well.
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115 posted 03-06-2004 09:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well I suppose then Lovebug -- you don't see this movie as having any ecumenical effect.

But, I'm inclined to agree with you.  A lot of people do agree with them.  In fact about 8500 undergrad and 2500 grad students pay them about $40k per year to learn from them.  The only reason there aren't more students is because Notre Dame won't let them in.  Last year 12,000 people applied -- only 3360 were accepted to be freshmen.  The applicants had an average SAT of 1382 -- or a 97th percentile ranking out of all college bound students nationally.  Half of those admitted had scores between 1320 and 1460.  373 high school valedictorians were rejected.

Aside from that -- what I think is significant about their opinion regarding the topic is that Notre Dame is not some liberal West-Coast school (or any coast for that matter).  It's the repository of Catholic thought in this country.

I'm interested though -- what do you think Professor Holland's concerns are about the word made 'film'?

And I leave the question open to everyone.
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116 posted 03-07-2004 09:50 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

....I can't help but wonder why you just gave us a huge description of Notre Dame. I'm not ignorant.

I'm also not Catholic, but even I know the importance of the body of Christ in that denomination.. they believe that when they take the bread and cup that it actually becomes the body and blood of Christ. That belief is quite strong in the Catholic church, I believe. Thats why I'm so surprised by these people, especailly if they are Catholic, like you say, trying to downplay the suffering of the body of Christ..

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

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117 posted 03-07-2004 12:33 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Dr. Neyrey specializes in Greco-Roman philosophy, rhetoric and study of the progymnasmata.

Professor Holland specializes in Shakespeare, Film, and Television.

Neither of their arguments deny the significance of nor even concern the Eucharist Lovebug.
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118 posted 03-07-2004 04:15 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I think they very much consurn it. He said that the Gospels are about the word and not what happened to Jesus' body.. but the Word was made flesh, and the whole religion revolves around Him and His body, as I said before.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Local Rebel
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119 posted 03-07-2004 04:56 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think you're mixing the two arguments together Lovebug.

Dr. Neyrey's comment is centralized on the content of the film vs. the Pascal (or Paschal) Mystery.  The Pascal Mystery focuses on the journey from the Cross to Resurrection -- which Catholics would hold is the core of the faith.  The tie in to Eucharist is that it is the rememberence and celebration of that journey.

Dr. Neyrey finds that a focus on the journey to the Cross, instead of FROM the Cross devalues the story.

Professor Holland's argument is that a focus on the visual is potentially dangerous.  That's probably because as a film and television expert he knows what the power of visual media (vs. word) can be.  Are you familiar with what happened in the televised debates between Richard Nixon and John Kennedy?

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120 posted 03-07-2004 06:41 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"Dr. Neyrey finds that a focus on the journey to the Cross, instead of FROM the Cross devalues the story."

And I'm saying that it doesn't devalue it, because the whole point of Christianity is that we are free because Jesus suffered and died...

And about the visual vs. the word.. I think that the visual, after 2000 years of only the word, IS very powerful. It should be. I'm glad it is. It isn't dangerous, it's truth and it's wonderful...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Local Rebel
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121 posted 03-07-2004 11:21 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

And I'm saying that it doesn't devalue it, because the whole point of Christianity is that we are free because Jesus suffered and died...



and even the 'worst atheist' (I believe that was the term that was used earlier by someone else) can say Jesus suffered and died -- it's what's missing from your sentence that Dr. Neyrey finds missing from Mel's movie.

That's his point Lovebug.

LoveBug
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122 posted 03-08-2004 05:06 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

The 'worst' Athiest might think that, but they can also see His love in the act when they see this movie.

Thats MY point.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

jbouder
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123 posted 03-24-2004 01:11 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Hawke and Lovebug:

I just saw the movie this past weekend.  Lovebug, I agree with Hawke that something important is missing from your sentence. We so often focus on the passion and resurrection of Christ and forget that His sinless life should most certainly not be forgotten.  Surely the resurrection was an empiricle sign of God acceptance of Christ's sacrificial act, but we ought to take great caution in not forgetting WHAT was sacrificed.

Regarding the movie, there were a few parts I found problematic (the scene which dramatically depicted the origin of the Shroud of Turin, for example).  Also, was Jesus beaten that badly before His crucifixion?  Dunno.  Was He beaten worse?  Dunno that either.  As long as we don't forget that Gibson's movie is a depiction of what the Passion of Christ MAY have been like AND we remember there is much more to the story than what was filmed (or survived the director's cutting room), we're okay.

By the way ... I heard Gibson is considering a movie about the Maccabean struggles.  I thought that put an interesting spin on the anti-semitic accusations that have been thrown at him.

Jim
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124 posted 03-25-2004 12:14 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Jim, in a world full of disgusting sexual and violent images, the story of Christ has been whitewashed. It has been cleaned up and shined and made to look nice. In doing this, however, in taking away the suffering, the dirt, the nitty gritty, they have taken away what was sacrificed much more than you think the movie has. They have taken away the fact that Jesus was God, yet human, and felt and had pain and emotion, temptations and sadness, as we all do. The movie just shows us what people seem to have forgotten. It's easy to talk about His birth, His parables, His miracles, His sermons, His resurrection, but it's not easy to talk about His death, maybe because we know we're guilty...

but we do need to talk about it. We needed this.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

 
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