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Passions in Poetry

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Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


0 posted 02-16-2004 10:42 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Do you agree with banning people?  

What does it say about the forum?  We give up on these people?  Yet the moderators may edit or delete any thing that is outrightly against the rules.  Do they simply give up?  
Is it saying the members are too unready too adress these things as well if they become public?  What is that based on.  Personally I don't think I have ever seen a lack of mettle in members to stand up for what they believe in when some contraversy-contriver comes and makes abrupt combustion anywhere in the forums. I think members are capable of adressing these things and defending. That is what I tend to think anyway or is that a face hiding something that is only very conditional and so inclined to give up on people?
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


1 posted 02-16-2004 11:30 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Hi

Ron is like any other person there is only so much one can take before making that decision, and for the record DM's have no say in it.....it's all about respect for not only Ron but the members of this site....believe me, he plays MORE then fair.....

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


2 posted 02-17-2004 12:11 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Banning someone is the LAST thing anyone here wants to do. It's not done lightly, I can tell you that. Banning someone can come in degrees - like a time out, where someone can come back. But there are those that are unable to find their place here - this is just not the right 'fit' for them.

I challenge you to join the DM team and find out how fairly things are done here. You'll be surprised that no one person has more of a say than another. And second chances are given time and time again.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 02-17-2004 12:11 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Any moderator may edit or delete anything, and there is a site of thousands of members of which so many are always ready to help defend or reproach and duly smother the wildfires any mischief-makers try to feed.  
I appreciate how the site stand on roots by its rules.  But I think that banning people is no good deed.
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


4 posted 02-17-2004 12:12 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

We don't smother you! We've created the Alley for any of these kinds of discussions! As long as there is respect and tolerance, your voice will be heard!
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


5 posted 02-17-2004 12:41 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Essorant- I know that there are others who have answered to this, however, I would like to offer my thoughts to this matter as well.
Banning poets that come to this site is a very last resort, and not something that is taken lightly, or handed out on a whim. If a member posts something that runs afoul of the rules that they agreed to, they are politely informed taht they have done so, and an explaination is given as to whay a post was deleted or edited. The poet in question is then asked to continue posting within the guidelines. In every case, the poet is treated with respect.
It is only after repeated offenses and repeated requests to stay within the established guidelines that ANY action is taken other than edits or deletes. In only the most severe cases is the member totally banned from the site. It is similar to a member of your family who is continually causing hate, and grief within the family. That member is given warning after warning, and chance after chance to change. Eventually, the family stops giving chances, and that member is no longer welcome to associate until they have realized their errors and they make their amends.
As for the members not being ready to deal with these things, I have two questions to ask you:
1) Should a person be forced to deal with blatantly offensive material if they wish not to be? There are mature forums that are more lenient, and if someone is not comfortable with the language or the mature themes, they simply do not read posts in those forums.
2) Should children be forced to be exposed to posts advocating such themes as drug use, suicide, abuse of another, rapes, murders, severe language, etc? I know of 4 children under the age of 12 that read and enjoy the posts in open and teen on a regular basis. The youngest is almost 8.
OK... I have another question...
3)Is a child of 10 ready to deal with these subjects?
Myself, another member (whose son is 8) and my next door neighbor are teaching our children to read and enjoy poetry in all of its many forms. As they are children they are not allowed to be in the mature forums, and they all have their own memberships so that they are unable to gain access to the mature forums should I be cooking dinner or something of the sort while I am monitoring them or if they are at their mother's house and not being totally supervised.
AS for the mods being able to edit or delete anything they want, NOTHING is edited or deleted without being discussed. There is no unilateral actions taken by a Deputy Mod. After being discussed, there are many of the posts that stay on the site untouched, because it was decided that there was no breaking of the rules. It is as fair a system as one is likely to see, and I would also invite you to join the mod team so you might be able to know more about how the system actually works.
These are just my thoughts anyhow.

But now the animal is in pain...
And now it's starting to rain...
But I'm still the same.

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


6 posted 02-17-2004 12:43 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

I dont want to have to come in Pips and defend the forums. I dont want to come in here and read the arrogance and cruel intent.Personally all the fighting and personal agendas spilling over into the forums has greatly taken away from my enjoyment of this place. I come here to read and reply to poetry, not to see rude behavior.
What is Ron supposed to do when someone repeatedly breaks the rules and deliberately acts offensively??? Let them stay and continue on. How is pips different from anywhere else...there are rules in all of life..and there are consequences for behavior. Banning is meant to keep order when nothing else has worked. And there is SO much behind the scenes when someone is acting out, that very few in the forums even know about. The mean spirited emails, the personal attacks, stalking, leaving not so subtle replies, posts of poetry that deliver messages meant to hurt someone else.  

What does any of this have to do with true spirit poetry?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 02-17-2004 01:41 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I'm not trying to say that any wrong material shouldn't be banned for members; I just don't believe any members ought to be banned for wrong material.  Let the bad material be thrown out the window, not the members.  It becomes too late to take one's own previous words off one page; but why should it ever be too late for better on a new page?  In this society all our doings are behaviors basically confined in sayings; in the real world I don't believe in doing away with people for their wrong doings, so in this world nor do I agree with doing away with people for their wrong sayings.  
Discipline and punishment may both observe respect; but getting rid of a person altogether is no good deed in my books.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 02-17-2004 06:24 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
… in the real world I don't believe in doing away with people for their wrong doings

So, you don't believe that someone who robs a bank should ever have to face the risk of prison?

Everyone makes their own decisions in life, and each of those decisions will have consequences. You can never eliminate those consequences, but can at best shift the burden of bearing them to others. In my opinion, that's usually a mistake. Every parent wishes they could absorb all the pain for their children, but none can, and the wise ones soon realize they shouldn't even try. Remove the pain of the flame and most children would grow up with badly charred fingers.

Misplaced compassion and ill-considered idealism do no one any favors.

Society punishes people who rob banks or shoot their neighbors, in large part, because it's the best way to deter such actions. It works very, very poorly, to be sure, but is still much better than any second closest choice. The man who walks into a bank with a sawed-off shotgun makes a choice, fully aware of the possible consequences of his actions. He will go to jail. He will spend the rest of his life branded as a convicted felon, with all the attendant restrictions of that brand. Were we to simply make him put back the money and send him on his way, the consequences of his choice would only be shifted from him to the bank around the corner. Someone always has to pay. Justice is best defined by insuring the right person gets the bill.

Our Moderators are all volunteers. They put up with a lot of real crap, usually from people who should have long ago learned to make better decisions. In all but the most egregious circumstances, those people making bad decisions are given ample opportunity to learn to make better decisions, essentially shifting the burden of consequences from their shoulders to the shoulders of our Moderating team. Ergo, the crap. Part of my job is to decide when the crap gets too deep. Part of my job is to decide when protection of the community must supersede protection of the individual.

Frankly, it's not a job I much like, nor one I would recommend. Registrations to the forums have been disabled for several weeks now simply because I got tired of the job. They will remained disabled until I can again stomach the job. Or, perhaps, until I can learn to do it a little better.

Our rules are pretty simple, probably too simple considering our growth, and the consequences for breaking those rules are equally simple. If we fail to set rules and establish consequences, the results are inevitable anarchy. If we set rules and establish consequences, but then fail to uphold either, we become liars and cheats. When you joined pipTalk, you promised to follow the rules. Implicit in that social contract is our promise to enforce those rules.

People make choices, and in a just system, each will bear the consequences for the choices they make. Posting at pipTalk isn't a right. It's not like breathing or voting or speaking out against your government. When you enter someone's home, you do so by invitation. You make the choice whether to accept the invitation and, at the end of story, you also make the choice determining how you will leave. I can't make either of those decisions for you. The best I can do is to do what I say I will do. The best I can do is to keep my promises. Your choice always determines which promise must be kept.

It's all comes down to choices. Promise made, promise kept.
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


9 posted 02-17-2004 09:21 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

"Do you agree with banning people?"

simple answer.. yes

more in depth answer... I think Ron covered it pretty well...

"What does it say about the forum?  We give up on these people?  Yet the moderators may edit or delete any thing that is outrightly against the rules.  Do they simply give up?"


I think it says something quite simple about the forum.. that it has rules and that they can not be broken continually without there being repercussions.

I think my quetion back to you would be:
"why if people do not and can not respect and live within the guidelines and have been warned repeatedly, should they be allowed to continue such behavior indefinitely?

and I would like to follow up that question with another;
why if the rules and guidelines are so ornerous to the person, and their own beliefs and actions are at odds with the expected behavior, would they WANT to post here?  

I used to laugh at spoiled children and adults.. those who would have it their way or by god they were going to throw a fit and try to make everyone miserable with their crying fits, tantrums, and attacks.... these days..I find them a bore.

Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


10 posted 02-17-2004 10:16 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Any moderator may edit or delete anything, and there is a site of thousands of members of which so many are always ready to help defend or reproach and duly smother the wildfires any mischief-makers try to feed””””


~~
I think there is a misconception here, moderators work together as a team
You may not have meant that as it sounded, but we do not just go in and delete/
edit poems, we come to a consensus as a team and go from there…join the DM and as Sharon (PDV) said you will see how we work together.


~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


11 posted 02-17-2004 10:27 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"Banning someone is the LAST thing anyone here wants to do"

Well...if it were up to me...lol...I would not be so fair...

Banning members?  YES.  I have seen some down right immature, irresponsible behavior by so called adults.  And it is tiresome, at best.  

Anyone that does not see what goes on behind the scenes (I have only seen some of it) has no clue what has taken place at times.  

IMHO, it gets tiring having to see this explained over and over...do we not all agree to the rules when we ask for admittance?  You accept it, then you adhere to it.  Otherwise...run amuck somewhere else...I like it here.

Susan
LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 01-08-2000
Posts 5015


12 posted 02-17-2004 12:12 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Ok. so you say that we should just let these people stick around and just go behind every message they post and edit or delete? Umm... moderators have LIVES, ok? It's hard enough to do all the things they have to do, why add on a task like babysitting immature people?

Also, Ron doesn't 'just give up' on anyone. He gives second and third chances.. but some people just WANT to make trouble.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


13 posted 02-17-2004 12:52 PM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

well, Ill just say that after being here for over four years, I've "crossed the border" many times. I could have been banned a few times, but thankfully I wasn't. It would have devistated me. A part of me would have died inside (though I had not thought about that at the times I had gotten mad at something and opened my mouth the wrong way)

It makes me sad to see people banned and I know how I would feel if it happened to me, but there are reasons for banning just as there are reasons for allowing people to stay.

I just encountered one of the hardest, meanest, stubbornest, most defiant co-workers I have ever had to deal with in my job...being a supervisor is frustrating. The man had absolutely no respect for me, for the job, for himself. He had the IQ of a plant and not near as much common sense as the three stooges combined. I wrote him up three times and had the means to fire him, but didn't. Yesterday he quit. I fell on my knees and thanked the Lord!

I admire anyone, including myself, who has so much patience with someone that it keeps them awake at night, and makes them grind their teeth in their sleep.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


14 posted 02-17-2004 01:01 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I wonder why no one comes in here talking about the THOUSANDS of posts we don't delete or edit & the THOUSANDS of members we have absolutely no problems with.

Are they in the wrong for not pushing the buttons?

Why do you look only at the very, very few instances that have been problems... a company could only dream of a success rate such as we have, based on the percentages.

Why, I wonder again, do people only seem to squawk about the failures and not the successes, when the latter outweighs the former by a magnitude of thousands?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


15 posted 02-17-2004 02:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If I am in distress someday and someone doesn't help me, and worse   laughs at my distress, curses me and increases what is causing my distress I shall remember that well; but if on another day I find that same person in that same distress I was in, I will never seek to do the same as that person and align me in any way to what that person showed me when I needed help.  I will be myself and do what I believe in and save that person as well as I may.  And if that person tries to curse and kill me in return then I will try to help and respect him in return again.  That is because I seek to do good and lend good unconditionally despite any bad.  It is unconditional.  I bear any being that promise as long as I live.  I get angry sometimes but I will never not seek to give and get respect.   I will never treat one lower for being treated lower.  If I don't suceed in helping one in my reach right now at least I didn't stoop and conform to a bad approach, habit, of disrespect. I tried to do good despite bad; and that is what I will continue to seek to do more.  Even if I fall in the middle of a venom-throwing snakepit, I will never decide to throw venom and be part of it .  That is why personally I don't agree with banning members.  I know that it is not done without great consideration.  But in the conclusion of it all, I don't see the virtue of getting someone to disappear.  Is that what we ought to strive for in an encounter with people to get the person to disappear rather than try to teach them a lesson through respect and kindness, good despite a bad they may do or continue to do?
No deed is a person himself.  It is only what the person went to and his nature turned to, not what the person is or what the nature of the person is overall.  The person and nature of a person becomes turned towards something and that something if it is contrary to good is most often caused by some sort of desperation or confusion, that seeks attention, breaks down, etc.  No one most initially sets up to break down.  
What is the help in the end by making that person disappear and saying "get out of this society?"
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


16 posted 02-17-2004 02:37 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Ess...
If I enter your home and begin to disrespect your family members. malign the ones closest to you and am unrepentant or unwilling to change my behavior each time I come to your house.. how long before you do not want me to come to your home? How long do you turn the other cheek and enable my behavior?

Kindness is not simply the act of giving people unlimited opportunities to behave in exactly the same way they behaved before when how they behaved, was improper by the "normal" rules of society or of even common decency.

We could debate the semantics of what you said above, but I won't go there. I'll simply say now one has a right to expect that behavior which is contrary to the "rules" of any chosen society will be allowed without consequences.

your idealism... and what appears to be great patience with people..is appreciated.
I simply disagree with your methods and the conclusions you have drawn.

I do not believe those who would not change or have not changed after being warned and given multiple chances to modify their own behavior are well served at all by simply turning the other cheek or by constant baby sitting by others who have to go around and clean up after them.

Where in all this concern, does their responsibility lie?
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


17 posted 02-17-2004 02:40 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"What is the help in the end by making that person disappear and saying "get out of this society?"

Well, in the case of Ted Bundy, it did a lot of good considering he escaped from jail/prison once and came to Florida and killed again.  

Extreme example?  Maybe...but true never the less....

Some people need to be taken out (of society) for the safety of others...

I took extreme joy in having a man arrested that flashed my then 10 yr old daughter...when he got out, he did it again.  How many chances does he get before he really hurts someone?

If you think there haven't been some bad/disturbed people trolling pip in the past that needed banned...I dare say you wear rose colored glasses.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


18 posted 02-17-2004 03:32 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I'm not saying omit consequences; I'm saying don't omit the person.  
A prison and punishment are part of society.  They are not about discarding a person but giving the person seperate attention whereby one may help himself back onto his feet again and perhap  earn a good opinion from the general society again.  
Banning a member discards one from the whole society of passions altogether.  The society no more treats him as part of it.  He/she has no voice in it anymore.  It makes omiting and forgetting the ultimate resort.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


19 posted 02-17-2004 03:48 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Every one of the banned members has that option, Ess. They can write in to Ron requesting to be reinstated as a member (several have).

There's no final boot... some are just in prison longer than others.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


20 posted 02-17-2004 03:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"If I enter your home and begin to disrespect your family members. malign the ones closest to you and am unrepentant or unwilling to change my behavior each time I come to your house.. how long before you do not want me to come to your home? How long do you turn the other cheek and enable my behavior?"

Whether you are a member of my family at home or not, you are a member of a family ; therefore I will not throw you out as if you are not a family member.  Generally any being is a member of some family even if it seems very remote.  Therefore trying to throw one out of the whole extended family is a wrong; for members need their family and families need their members.  If one does something wrong and continues to do something wrong the family should help right that person so that person does right again.  They shouldn't throw him out on the street, discard him.  There are special peacekeepers who are ready for these on the spur of the moment, but that shouldn't cease anyone from being peacekeepers even if they are not specialized.  We all help others, not just some.
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


21 posted 02-17-2004 03:53 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

I'm not saying omit consequences; I'm saying don't omit the person.  A prison and punishment are part of society.  They are not about discarding a person but giving the person seperate attention whereby one may help himself back onto his feet again and perhap  earn a good opinion from the general society again.""""

~~~~

I think there has been more then one study that shows most "criminals" (lack of better word") will indeed repeat the offense.....I dont know who you are defending if anyone, or if this really just bothers you....but we all have to play by the rules both in society and "here" in this community.....if you look around at other poetry sites most have the same rules to abide by.....I am sure there are a few that dont, and too me that says those sites dont really care......

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


22 posted 02-17-2004 03:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Christopher
Sorry, I didn't see your last post.  
That a good thing.  But how may you decide that person is worthy of being part of passions when he has been away for such a period?  You have not had any observation of that person.  You are taking a larger risk it seems than if you had kept him at home in the first place!

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


23 posted 02-17-2004 03:57 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Ok Ess...how would you do it differently then? You say 'don't omit the member' - how exactly would you have the system so the behaviour is 'punished', but the member stays? How would you ensure that the bad behaviour, that has been demonstrated by that member in a consistent, destructive pattern, goes?

I'm genuinely interested Ess. Tell me.

K
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


24 posted 02-17-2004 04:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Greeneyes

Please don't think I am bringing the rules into question.  I believe in them and appreciate what Passions stand by because it is what I believe almost any society ought to.  It is only that last resort of omitting members as an ultimate consequence or conclusion that I am questioning...  
 
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