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Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


100 posted 02-26-2004 05:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I didn't think it was wrong to express opinion and not end up having a completly changed opinion or changing opinions, or seeing some change that one believes better.  So I suppose Nakedthoughts was right about wishing to argue.  I don't believe in banning, so I argued with those that do.  But my own choice in the end would still be in the majorities wishes too.  That is where I now must come into agreement with "banning".  I promise I will try to make choice for the majority as a member.  And believe any in a position of authority should  probably do the same, no matter what his or her beliefs.
If the majority says the sky is green, then I guess it must be


[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-26-2004 06:47 PM).]

nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


101 posted 02-26-2004 06:57 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

awww Ess, and I thought you were doing so good in your response until that last addition *s
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


102 posted 02-26-2004 07:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If the majority doesn't believe in something do you think it ever right for authority to choose for a belief in it?  In this case the authority and the majority don't believe in not banning.  But that doesn't make it right.  
Someday you may  come back to this thread and see it very differently.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-26-2004 09:49 PM).]

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


103 posted 02-26-2004 08:00 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

it could philosophically be argued that if the majority thought the sky was green, it would be, because the definition of "green" would be adjusted by the mass understanding. as is, we all think it's "blue," which is just a manner of expression.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


104 posted 02-26-2004 08:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*chuckle*

and that's why I love this guy!

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


105 posted 02-26-2004 09:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The majority also believes that morning is arrived at midnight though the sun is no where in sight.   That does not remove the moon, or the darkness or the stars.  It is night, even though they wrongly call it morning.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


106 posted 02-26-2004 09:14 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

The problem  as I see it now...from your interpretation, is that you don't understand the definition of banning and the rules that apply to it.

And also it is not that they do not believe in "not banning"  because the majority of the posts and poets are never banned...you  have taken a very small action of this community and basically have condemned us for knowing that this rule exists and is meant as a behavioral control.

If that is your belief, so be it. You can twist everyones words around as you have done many times to suit you beliefs and you still will be misinterpreting the meaning behind the use of a ban on this site...which is to keep respect for others.

You can continue to keep this thread  running but you are not making any more points than before...and as Barry has said and a few others before him...it has now become a waste of my time.

I leave it to others if they feel it is necessary, to make their points.

As others have also said, you have not even given one example of how you would take a member who misbehaves and change his behavior so as not to be banned....would you give them one warning, two, ten...15  and still allow them access here to either upset the community or post obscenities or  mature content in open for the  young people who read here to see...would you make an apology as a moderator for that member and make excuses  as he was having a bad day?

Just what would you do...there are limits everywhere in this world...are you saying that you don't believe in limits?

Thank you for any response you may make that has some answers in it.

M
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


107 posted 02-26-2004 09:18 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

But Ess, morning does not consist only of dawn or daybreak. Morning encompasses the whole of the time span between midnight and noon, and it has nothing to do with the opinions of the majority or those in authority. It just is. But I suppose the authorities could decree otherwise if they so chose. In fact, I'm sure they would if there could be money made in doing so.  
Magnus
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


108 posted 02-26-2004 09:57 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

This is my last remark in this thread,  and
I encourage the rest to do the same.  NO,
and I mean NO progress has been made.  And
I would have thought that most of us have
far more important endeavors to take care of.  Like raising kids,  getting them to sleep,  etc....spending a little time with
them.....but NO,  here we all are expending
countless pages of dialogue....and thus far
nothing has come of it that is of any
consequence.....

And if you don't like what I have written,
well....don't read it....

LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 01-08-2000
Posts 5015


109 posted 02-26-2004 10:26 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

'round and 'round and 'round they go....
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


110 posted 02-26-2004 11:01 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
And if you don't like what I have written,
well....don't read it....
that's cheatin'.

many of us do probably have other important things to do... but some times (and some days) it's actually fun to have a disagreement.

Ess - so what you're saying by your most recent post is that everyone else in the world is wrong, while you're right?

how'd i miss that memo?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


111 posted 02-26-2004 11:20 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't remember saying that.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-27-2004 01:16 AM).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


112 posted 02-26-2004 11:32 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

With all respect, how many times does one need to tell us he is no longer going to participate in this discussion. If you're bored with it then quit wasting your time on it. Simple.

Early on it looked like this thread might be going a little personal but the last couple of pages, it seems like a friendly, if sometimes a little heated, discussion. Essorant is trying very hard to make a minority point while most of the rest of us are trying to dispute it. No, I don't expect any opinions to be changed as a result. So it likely is a waste of everyone's time, at least in the overall grand scheme of things. But, as Christopher said, "...some times (and some days) it's actually fun to have a disagreement."

Where is the wrong in that?

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


113 posted 02-27-2004 02:58 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

I DON'T THINK IT'S FUN TO BE IGNORED!

Essorant, why does it feel like you aren't reading what I've written? In post 92 I told you about how many people come running when there is trouble. And then the post AFTER that, you wrote you think people should come running and try hard to help.

HELLO????

I am beginning to think you are just keeping this going to see how many pages you can rack up here.

Ess, people who reach the point of no return will be banned. If you don't agree with that and don't want to be a part of it, then move on. But that's the way it is.
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


114 posted 02-27-2004 03:15 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

one other thing Ess...when people join the site, they (are supposed to) read the guidelines and terms of use. Nobody makes them agree. Nobody makes you agree. You have the perfect right to disagree. You have the freedom to be a member here if you accepted the terms of use of this site...and obviously you did. You also had the freedom not to accept the terms and not become a member.

When the new member agrees to the terms of use and to follow by the set guidelines and they end up breaking those lines, the contract is void...they chose to void the deal...sorry Charlie

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


115 posted 02-27-2004 05:14 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay.

With all due respect to Essorant, and all due respect to everyone's opinion here, the problem I am having with Essorant's argument is that I am applying it personally to my life.

It smacks of co-dependency.

Isn't there such a thing as too much tolerance?

Can an abused wife afford to turn the other cheek? (which, I believe, was the good Captain's point before he edited.)

Note the lack of sarcasm here.

I also think it unfair for others to attempt to deem the importance of an issue--you just never know. This discussion has been borderline hostile at times, but I also have faith that Essorant is sincere in the seeking to ask the question. I also don't doubt the sincerity of the answers, despite my "offhand" applause of "sarcastic" replies.

(There may be vital information in the opinions here, that others don't or can't even conceive of applying to their own lives--it might make a difference in mine--so please, if this thread wearies you, don't come here. I still have questions m'self.)

It's in this spirit, that I have to ask Essorant, do you believe unconditional acceptance equals unconditional love?

In my spiritual belief system, I believe all prayers are answered. Sometimes, though, the answer is "no".

Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


116 posted 02-27-2004 09:16 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

(chuckling) see why I love this woman?

Ser....
  two cents worth from me... which is probably worth three quarters of a cents in value, but hey, what do you buy with two sents anymore anyway??

oh..and I promise to try and not be sarcastic..or be deemed as being sarcastic...

unconditional acceptance and unconditional love. If they were equal, it would mean that acceptance and love are equal... simple equation A( unconditional)+ b (acceptance) = A ( unconditional) + C (love)

A+b-A= A+C-A
B=C
Acceptance = Love

I can accept you or certain behaviors in you and still not love you... though the argument could be made love has to be defined and that if the motivation for my acceptance was respect ( again to be defined) that respect was a form of love.

logically without entering into the semantics and defining the terms being discussed I have to answer you that no... unconditional acceptance does not equal unconditional love.

I too would be interested in Ess's answer to this question as it may in fact lie at the root of the differences of opinion on here...
If Ess is saying unconditional acceptance is equal to the betterment of people... the arguments made relative to the severity or degree of "wrong" done by the individual hold no validity. It would say...
I unconditionally accept you for the betterment of everyone and in particular the person being accepted. so I would unconditionally accept even the worst of offenders no matter what the crime or offense to better that person. If you make the argument that unconditional acceptance is for the betterment of people in some cases, and past certain degrees of offense or action, I ( society or functional social group) can not accept and must in some way or form isolate you from the rest of society for societies betterment and safety..

then Ess's argument is not about whether or not banning is appropriate, but at what point is it appropriate.

I read from Ess an illogical conclusion that banning is bad..and to ban someone from this sight is wrong...it doesn't help the person being banned only isolates them. Yet..also heard the argument that of course criminals or pedophiles or abusers should be isolated away from potential victims to avoid harm or possible harm to them.

sorry..doesn't compute... not if we are debating that banning is wrong...

now if you wish to speak to the issue of at what point is banning appropriate, I think this s totally different discussion...


(didn't know you could get so much bs for two cents did you Ser?) lol


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


117 posted 02-27-2004 09:31 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Essorant, why does it feel like you aren't reading what I've written? In post 92 I told you about how many people come running when there is trouble. And then the post AFTER that, you wrote you think people should come running and try hard to help. "


Passingshadows
You need to read Christopher's post 93 more closely to see where my comment in post # 94 is coming from.  Sometimes if someone is doing a wrong they may be in a state that needs people to be there for them more than ever and help.  After people have taken the beginning steps and then have taken it farther, calling it "waste of time" or "endless" from there and then giving up on something or someone I believe is the waste of time.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


118 posted 02-27-2004 09:37 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Nakdthoughts,
I didn't ignore you either.  I'm just a bit exhausted of this thread.

Talk with you later.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


119 posted 02-27-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

[taking a break]

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-27-2004 12:58 PM).]

A Romantic Heart
Member Ascendant
since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


120 posted 02-27-2004 12:20 PM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

WWJD?  

We need to take our problems to the Lord and put it prayer....How would our heavenly father deal with this situation? What would Jesus do? How would Jesus treat the offender?
"Forgive them father for they know not what they do!" He is our role model and example to live by.."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
"Love thy neighbor as thy self"...forgive and it will be forgiven unto you"....

"Love thy enemies" "Pray for those who persecute you"....To the woman caught in adultry who was thrown out of the city and going to be stoned to death....Jesus said to her.."Your sins have been forgiven","Go and sin no more"(Jesus knew her heart and knew she wanted to change..this is the key)....he told the others doing the stoning.."He who is without sin himself, may cast the first stone" ( note: all the stones were dropped..because no one is without sin..no one is perfect....)

I will Pray for peace and wisdom in this situation...

My theory is..most people who are mean by choice are so for some resaon...and most of the time..it is lack of love and understanding(somewhere throughout their lives)...to me this is a soul crying out for love...this soul wants love but doesn't know how to correctly receive it..so one acts out to get the love the only way they know how...even if it is attention from being bad....most have had some traumatic experiance in their lives that has caused their hearts to be filled with hate and bitterness, causing a hardened heart.

Maybe when a person is being mean on purpose we should send loving ecards to them....

Tough Love is the key...yes sin has its consequences..but there is also forgiveness...

The balance has to be to discipline...but to discipline with love....Love the sinner..hate the sin...

I think there should be a room...like a password room..and as soon as the topic or person posting mean replies etc..logs in..they are taken to this room to work issues out..and the post is locked.Maybe emotion icons beside our name(This could be choosen as we log in) explaining what kind of mood we are in so if we had a bad day....everyone would know...etc.

Sometimes it may be a matter of lack of understanding..and sometimes it is choice to be bad....through discussion and communication in this room, you can get to the bottom of the issue and nip it in the bud before it snowballs and is viewed for the public. Maybe a chat room? this way the issues can be discussed and after the discussion all of it disappears....maybe there should be one person gifted in people situations that could be a moderator just for this type of situation only...like therepy room....cooling down room...and when let out of the room and back into the forums..after three times ...then ban them ..because

1. The first time, is forgivable..(maybe temper, anger, bad day, lack of knowledge and understanding...)

2. This time they knew what they were doing, so it is a CHOICE...then a warning..They choose to do this against you willfully knowing to do better.Then it becomes personal.

3,This time they have received the warning, made the CHOICE and they continue...then they should be banned.(maybe allow them to post poetry but not replies, because poetry is therapy for most people)

There are those who will never change...who come to attack..and destroy..and I say ignore them(them meaning attackers, not curious debate or discussion)..ignore their post(just like the media when serial killers want attention)...silence is a killer and the way to make a person leave is to not acknowledge them at all...then they would get bored with it and soon...go away because it isn't fun anymore..sometimes I think we fuel the fire...

I know dealing with kids you have almost the same issues and I would suggest reading a book for the solution maybe "Tough Love" by James Dobson...or to ask Dr. Phil from the Dr. Phil show?

Just throwing ideas out for a solution.... so we all can be on common ground...

Maybe just poems could be posted and the replies be hidden...or sent to a private email box...we could still read eachothers poetry and everyone would be equal..not basing the poems on the number of replies...etc.

I may be wrong but to me the poetry being posted is not as much as a problem as the replies to the poetry?

When the replies are hidden one is less temted to post a mean reply..because the attention is not there for everyone to see..

Just my thoughts on the matter...I can see both sides...

Ess wants to love others( teach others love to change them not shun them or throw them to the wolves,and how can one learn how to love without been given love to change them?)..and so does PIP members....love comes with responsibility, respect, and forgiveness. Some people as children are never taught this....and then grow up as adults....until something teaches them or changes them.(but they have to desire change and want to change)

Some people never learn...some learn after it is too late...some let their pride get in the way and will not admitt to their mistakes....

Some are stalkers...perverts..etc..and this is where banning is needed!

Just as America cannot be the world police...PIP cannot be the the physicologist for the internet.

Jesus said there is no perfect world but heaven..and no peace here on earth..as long as there is good..there is evil...why would we need heaven if we could all have heaven here on earth?

It all comes down to choice..to do good or evil....

Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH

passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


121 posted 02-27-2004 01:29 PM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Essorant, I read Christopher's post and I read your reply, which seemed to have invalidated my post.

This thread is a perfect example. You are exhausted from it....we are exhausted from it.

This seems to be endless and a waste to go any farther, doesn't it?

Well that's how we feel in trying to help and be there for a person who is insistant that they will do things their way, say what they want to say, break whatever rule they want to break, and hurt whoever they want to hurt...it gets tiring.

This thread has taken up far too much of my time when I could be reading poetry and other things. So I use this thread as an example to you Ess of how the end will never come with some situations, and thus, any more emotion and time spent would be a waste.

It takes a great deal of time and effort to deal with someone who may potentially be banned. There should be a point where it can be called a "waste"...when all resources have been exhausted and it's just emotionally draining to continue on.

You've heard the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Same philosophy applies here, and in a lot of other situations too. That's why it's a famous saying. It's universal.

And at this point, right now, I throw my hands up on this thread. I am not a very patient person.

Thankfully, Ron, the moderators, and the people who come running to help out, have the kind of patience they have (and not the kind of patience I have) or we would have only half the members we have now.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


122 posted 02-27-2004 02:58 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

only half?


heh - Ron might be the only one left!
berengar
Member
since 01-02-2004
Posts 61


123 posted 02-27-2004 05:38 PM       View Profile for berengar   Email berengar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for berengar

Essorant]

Two pieces of advice;

1) Thou shalt listen to thine elders for a change

2) Learn to express your thoughts grammatically (this is a sodding literature form, after all)

If you are congenitally unable to discharge the above, fare thee well (and there is life after piptalk forum)

Ron, You may take me to issue with this, but so be it.
Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


124 posted 02-27-2004 06:49 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
fare thee well (and there is life after piptalk forum)

me thinks youre about to find out.

sheesh ... talk about poet ego ....

Through the water ... through the rain ... to the soul of everything
Wash my heart out on the stones ... and I'm almost gone.

David Gray

 
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