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Banning Members
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Banning Members |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Do you agree with banning people? What does it say about the forum? We give up on these people? Yet the moderators may edit or delete any thing that is outrightly against the rules. Do they simply give up? Is it saying the members are too unready too adress these things as well if they become public? What is that based on. Personally I don't think I have ever seen a lack of mettle in members to stand up for what they believe in when some contraversy-contriver comes and makes abrupt combustion anywhere in the forums. I think members are capable of adressing these things and defending. That is what I tend to think anyway or is that a face hiding something that is only very conditional and so inclined to give up on people? |
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Greeneyes  
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Hi Ron is like any other person there is only so much one can take before making that decision, and for the record DM's have no say in it.....it's all about respect for not only Ron but the members of this site....believe me, he plays MORE then fair.....  ~~**~~ |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Banning someone is the LAST thing anyone here wants to do. It's not done lightly, I can tell you that. Banning someone can come in degrees - like a time out, where someone can come back. But there are those that are unable to find their place here - this is just not the right 'fit' for them. I challenge you to join the DM team and find out how fairly things are done here. You'll be surprised that no one person has more of a say than another. And second chances are given time and time again. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Any moderator may edit or delete anything, and there is a site of thousands of members of which so many are always ready to help defend or reproach and duly smother the wildfires any mischief-makers try to feed. I appreciate how the site stand on roots by its rules. But I think that banning people is no good deed. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
We don't smother you! We've created the Alley for any of these kinds of discussions! As long as there is respect and tolerance, your voice will be heard! |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Essorant- I know that there are others who have answered to this, however, I would like to offer my thoughts to this matter as well. Banning poets that come to this site is a very last resort, and not something that is taken lightly, or handed out on a whim. If a member posts something that runs afoul of the rules that they agreed to, they are politely informed taht they have done so, and an explaination is given as to whay a post was deleted or edited. The poet in question is then asked to continue posting within the guidelines. In every case, the poet is treated with respect. It is only after repeated offenses and repeated requests to stay within the established guidelines that ANY action is taken other than edits or deletes. In only the most severe cases is the member totally banned from the site. It is similar to a member of your family who is continually causing hate, and grief within the family. That member is given warning after warning, and chance after chance to change. Eventually, the family stops giving chances, and that member is no longer welcome to associate until they have realized their errors and they make their amends. As for the members not being ready to deal with these things, I have two questions to ask you: 1) Should a person be forced to deal with blatantly offensive material if they wish not to be? There are mature forums that are more lenient, and if someone is not comfortable with the language or the mature themes, they simply do not read posts in those forums. 2) Should children be forced to be exposed to posts advocating such themes as drug use, suicide, abuse of another, rapes, murders, severe language, etc? I know of 4 children under the age of 12 that read and enjoy the posts in open and teen on a regular basis. The youngest is almost 8. OK... I have another question... 3)Is a child of 10 ready to deal with these subjects? Myself, another member (whose son is 8) and my next door neighbor are teaching our children to read and enjoy poetry in all of its many forms. As they are children they are not allowed to be in the mature forums, and they all have their own memberships so that they are unable to gain access to the mature forums should I be cooking dinner or something of the sort while I am monitoring them or if they are at their mother's house and not being totally supervised. AS for the mods being able to edit or delete anything they want, NOTHING is edited or deleted without being discussed. There is no unilateral actions taken by a Deputy Mod. After being discussed, there are many of the posts that stay on the site untouched, because it was decided that there was no breaking of the rules. It is as fair a system as one is likely to see, and I would also invite you to join the mod team so you might be able to know more about how the system actually works. These are just my thoughts anyhow. But now the animal is in pain... |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
I dont want to have to come in Pips and defend the forums. I dont want to come in here and read the arrogance and cruel intent.Personally all the fighting and personal agendas spilling over into the forums has greatly taken away from my enjoyment of this place. I come here to read and reply to poetry, not to see rude behavior. What is Ron supposed to do when someone repeatedly breaks the rules and deliberately acts offensively??? Let them stay and continue on. How is pips different from anywhere else...there are rules in all of life..and there are consequences for behavior. Banning is meant to keep order when nothing else has worked. And there is SO much behind the scenes when someone is acting out, that very few in the forums even know about. The mean spirited emails, the personal attacks, stalking, leaving not so subtle replies, posts of poetry that deliver messages meant to hurt someone else. What does any of this have to do with true spirit poetry? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm not trying to say that any wrong material shouldn't be banned for members; I just don't believe any members ought to be banned for wrong material. Let the bad material be thrown out the window, not the members. It becomes too late to take one's own previous words off one page; but why should it ever be too late for better on a new page? In this society all our doings are behaviors basically confined in sayings; in the real world I don't believe in doing away with people for their wrong doings, so in this world nor do I agree with doing away with people for their wrong sayings. Discipline and punishment may both observe respect; but getting rid of a person altogether is no good deed in my books. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: So, you don't believe that someone who robs a bank should ever have to face the risk of prison? Everyone makes their own decisions in life, and each of those decisions will have consequences. You can never eliminate those consequences, but can at best shift the burden of bearing them to others. In my opinion, that's usually a mistake. Every parent wishes they could absorb all the pain for their children, but none can, and the wise ones soon realize they shouldn't even try. Remove the pain of the flame and most children would grow up with badly charred fingers. Misplaced compassion and ill-considered idealism do no one any favors. Society punishes people who rob banks or shoot their neighbors, in large part, because it's the best way to deter such actions. It works very, very poorly, to be sure, but is still much better than any second closest choice. The man who walks into a bank with a sawed-off shotgun makes a choice, fully aware of the possible consequences of his actions. He will go to jail. He will spend the rest of his life branded as a convicted felon, with all the attendant restrictions of that brand. Were we to simply make him put back the money and send him on his way, the consequences of his choice would only be shifted from him to the bank around the corner. Someone always has to pay. Justice is best defined by insuring the right person gets the bill. Our Moderators are all volunteers. They put up with a lot of real crap, usually from people who should have long ago learned to make better decisions. In all but the most egregious circumstances, those people making bad decisions are given ample opportunity to learn to make better decisions, essentially shifting the burden of consequences from their shoulders to the shoulders of our Moderating team. Ergo, the crap. Part of my job is to decide when the crap gets too deep. Part of my job is to decide when protection of the community must supersede protection of the individual. Frankly, it's not a job I much like, nor one I would recommend. Registrations to the forums have been disabled for several weeks now simply because I got tired of the job. They will remained disabled until I can again stomach the job. Or, perhaps, until I can learn to do it a little better. Our rules are pretty simple, probably too simple considering our growth, and the consequences for breaking those rules are equally simple. If we fail to set rules and establish consequences, the results are inevitable anarchy. If we set rules and establish consequences, but then fail to uphold either, we become liars and cheats. When you joined pipTalk, you promised to follow the rules. Implicit in that social contract is our promise to enforce those rules. People make choices, and in a just system, each will bear the consequences for the choices they make. Posting at pipTalk isn't a right. It's not like breathing or voting or speaking out against your government. When you enter someone's home, you do so by invitation. You make the choice whether to accept the invitation and, at the end of story, you also make the choice determining how you will leave. I can't make either of those decisions for you. The best I can do is to do what I say I will do. The best I can do is to keep my promises. Your choice always determines which promise must be kept. It's all comes down to choices. Promise made, promise kept. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"Do you agree with banning people?" simple answer.. yes more in depth answer... I think Ron covered it pretty well... "What does it say about the forum? We give up on these people? Yet the moderators may edit or delete any thing that is outrightly against the rules. Do they simply give up?" I think it says something quite simple about the forum.. that it has rules and that they can not be broken continually without there being repercussions. I think my quetion back to you would be: "why if people do not and can not respect and live within the guidelines and have been warned repeatedly, should they be allowed to continue such behavior indefinitely? and I would like to follow up that question with another; why if the rules and guidelines are so ornerous to the person, and their own beliefs and actions are at odds with the expected behavior, would they WANT to post here? I used to laugh at spoiled children and adults.. those who would have it their way or by god they were going to throw a fit and try to make everyone miserable with their crying fits, tantrums, and attacks.... these days..I find them a bore. |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Any moderator may edit or delete anything, and there is a site of thousands of members of which so many are always ready to help defend or reproach and duly smother the wildfires any mischief-makers try to feed”””” ~~ I think there is a misconception here, moderators work together as a team You may not have meant that as it sounded, but we do not just go in and delete/ edit poems, we come to a consensus as a team and go from there…join the DM and as Sharon (PDV) said you will see how we work together. ~~**~~ There are moments when speech is but a mouth pressed lightly and humbly against the angel's hands. |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
"Banning someone is the LAST thing anyone here wants to do" Well...if it were up to me...lol...I would not be so fair... Banning members? YES. I have seen some down right immature, irresponsible behavior by so called adults. And it is tiresome, at best. Anyone that does not see what goes on behind the scenes (I have only seen some of it) has no clue what has taken place at times. IMHO, it gets tiring having to see this explained over and over...do we not all agree to the rules when we ask for admittance? You accept it, then you adhere to it. Otherwise...run amuck somewhere else...I like it here. Susan |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
Ok. so you say that we should just let these people stick around and just go behind every message they post and edit or delete? Umm... moderators have LIVES, ok? It's hard enough to do all the things they have to do, why add on a task like babysitting immature people? Also, Ron doesn't 'just give up' on anyone. He gives second and third chances.. but some people just WANT to make trouble. Oh, make me Thine forever And should I fainting be Lord, let me never ever Outlive my love for Thee |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
well, Ill just say that after being here for over four years, I've "crossed the border" many times. I could have been banned a few times, but thankfully I wasn't. It would have devistated me. A part of me would have died inside (though I had not thought about that at the times I had gotten mad at something and opened my mouth the wrong way) It makes me sad to see people banned and I know how I would feel if it happened to me, but there are reasons for banning just as there are reasons for allowing people to stay. I just encountered one of the hardest, meanest, stubbornest, most defiant co-workers I have ever had to deal with in my job...being a supervisor is frustrating. The man had absolutely no respect for me, for the job, for himself. He had the IQ of a plant and not near as much common sense as the three stooges combined. I wrote him up three times and had the means to fire him, but didn't. Yesterday he quit. I fell on my knees and thanked the Lord! I admire anyone, including myself, who has so much patience with someone that it keeps them awake at night, and makes them grind their teeth in their sleep. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I wonder why no one comes in here talking about the THOUSANDS of posts we don't delete or edit & the THOUSANDS of members we have absolutely no problems with. Are they in the wrong for not pushing the buttons? Why do you look only at the very, very few instances that have been problems... a company could only dream of a success rate such as we have, based on the percentages. Why, I wonder again, do people only seem to squawk about the failures and not the successes, when the latter outweighs the former by a magnitude of thousands? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If I am in distress someday and someone doesn't help me, and worse laughs at my distress, curses me and increases what is causing my distress I shall remember that well; but if on another day I find that same person in that same distress I was in, I will never seek to do the same as that person and align me in any way to what that person showed me when I needed help. I will be myself and do what I believe in and save that person as well as I may. And if that person tries to curse and kill me in return then I will try to help and respect him in return again. That is because I seek to do good and lend good unconditionally despite any bad. It is unconditional. I bear any being that promise as long as I live. I get angry sometimes but I will never not seek to give and get respect. I will never treat one lower for being treated lower. If I don't suceed in helping one in my reach right now at least I didn't stoop and conform to a bad approach, habit, of disrespect. I tried to do good despite bad; and that is what I will continue to seek to do more. Even if I fall in the middle of a venom-throwing snakepit, I will never decide to throw venom and be part of it . That is why personally I don't agree with banning members. I know that it is not done without great consideration. But in the conclusion of it all, I don't see the virtue of getting someone to disappear. Is that what we ought to strive for in an encounter with people to get the person to disappear rather than try to teach them a lesson through respect and kindness, good despite a bad they may do or continue to do? No deed is a person himself. It is only what the person went to and his nature turned to, not what the person is or what the nature of the person is overall. The person and nature of a person becomes turned towards something and that something if it is contrary to good is most often caused by some sort of desperation or confusion, that seeks attention, breaks down, etc. No one most initially sets up to break down. What is the help in the end by making that person disappear and saying "get out of this society?" |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Ess... If I enter your home and begin to disrespect your family members. malign the ones closest to you and am unrepentant or unwilling to change my behavior each time I come to your house.. how long before you do not want me to come to your home? How long do you turn the other cheek and enable my behavior? Kindness is not simply the act of giving people unlimited opportunities to behave in exactly the same way they behaved before when how they behaved, was improper by the "normal" rules of society or of even common decency. We could debate the semantics of what you said above, but I won't go there. I'll simply say now one has a right to expect that behavior which is contrary to the "rules" of any chosen society will be allowed without consequences. your idealism... and what appears to be great patience with people..is appreciated. I simply disagree with your methods and the conclusions you have drawn. I do not believe those who would not change or have not changed after being warned and given multiple chances to modify their own behavior are well served at all by simply turning the other cheek or by constant baby sitting by others who have to go around and clean up after them. Where in all this concern, does their responsibility lie? |
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Susan Caldwell Member Rara Avis
since 2002-12-27
Posts 8348Florida |
"What is the help in the end by making that person disappear and saying "get out of this society?" Well, in the case of Ted Bundy, it did a lot of good considering he escaped from jail/prison once and came to Florida and killed again. Extreme example? Maybe...but true never the less.... Some people need to be taken out (of society) for the safety of others... I took extreme joy in having a man arrested that flashed my then 10 yr old daughter...when he got out, he did it again. How many chances does he get before he really hurts someone? If you think there haven't been some bad/disturbed people trolling pip in the past that needed banned...I dare say you wear rose colored glasses. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm not saying omit consequences; I'm saying don't omit the person. A prison and punishment are part of society. They are not about discarding a person but giving the person seperate attention whereby one may help himself back onto his feet again and perhap earn a good opinion from the general society again. Banning a member discards one from the whole society of passions altogether. The society no more treats him as part of it. He/she has no voice in it anymore. It makes omiting and forgetting the ultimate resort. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Every one of the banned members has that option, Ess. They can write in to Ron requesting to be reinstated as a member (several have). There's no final boot... some are just in prison longer than others. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"If I enter your home and begin to disrespect your family members. malign the ones closest to you and am unrepentant or unwilling to change my behavior each time I come to your house.. how long before you do not want me to come to your home? How long do you turn the other cheek and enable my behavior?" Whether you are a member of my family at home or not, you are a member of a family ; therefore I will not throw you out as if you are not a family member. Generally any being is a member of some family even if it seems very remote. Therefore trying to throw one out of the whole extended family is a wrong; for members need their family and families need their members. If one does something wrong and continues to do something wrong the family should help right that person so that person does right again. They shouldn't throw him out on the street, discard him. There are special peacekeepers who are ready for these on the spur of the moment, but that shouldn't cease anyone from being peacekeepers even if they are not specialized. We all help others, not just some. |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
I'm not saying omit consequences; I'm saying don't omit the person. A prison and punishment are part of society. They are not about discarding a person but giving the person seperate attention whereby one may help himself back onto his feet again and perhap earn a good opinion from the general society again."""" ~~~~ I think there has been more then one study that shows most "criminals" (lack of better word") will indeed repeat the offense.....I dont know who you are defending if anyone, or if this really just bothers you....but we all have to play by the rules both in society and "here" in this community.....if you look around at other poetry sites most have the same rules to abide by.....I am sure there are a few that dont, and too me that says those sites dont really care...... ~~**~~ |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Christopher Sorry, I didn't see your last post. That a good thing. But how may you decide that person is worthy of being part of passions when he has been away for such a period? You have not had any observation of that person. You are taking a larger risk it seems than if you had kept him at home in the first place! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ok Ess...how would you do it differently then? You say 'don't omit the member' - how exactly would you have the system so the behaviour is 'punished', but the member stays? How would you ensure that the bad behaviour, that has been demonstrated by that member in a consistent, destructive pattern, goes? I'm genuinely interested Ess. Tell me.  K |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Greeneyes Please don't think I am bringing the rules into question. I believe in them and appreciate what Passions stand by because it is what I believe almost any society ought to. It is only that last resort of omitting members as an ultimate consequence or conclusion that I am questioning... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: It IS the last resort, Ess. As Severn indicated, how would you establish a place of respect and tolerance and keep everyone happy if you were running Passions? Because we all stand to learn something new, every day, and if you have a solution, we'd like to know of it. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Hello, my name is Lee J. and I've been posting here for a few months at Passions. This web site to me is enjoyable due to the professionalism of it's members. Once a few months ago, I was upset and wrote a poem which had the word poop in it...but was a more descriptive word. I was reminded of the fact that there are children reading these poems and told that the poem was redirected to another forum. I was ashamed at my behavior as I dont' dare want to hurt children in any way. Now...as you all may know, my poems are long and frankly that is me...who I am and how I write. But there is one gal (whom I hold no grude towards that constantly left messages about how long my poems were and they were hard for her to read. The comments as such continued from her until I came to the conclusion...OK, then don't read them???? And I don't mean that in an angry way. Then I was told that maybe I should space my sentences, by another, and that way, perhaps more people would read and comment. Now I thank you very much for those comments, but after a while...they hurt my heart. I mean literally hurt. Once it was suggested to me that I go to another forum here where the action was not. (smiles) and that hurt as well? I've read many poems in here that had more sexual content in them then the poop word I wrote and became very upset, especially after being told that children read our poems?????? And I'm not kidding or making up stories...I've read some very heavy sexual content along with swear words that I've never used in my writing???? Today I posted a poem in the forum and it was immediately moved to the discussion forum. I asked why and I was told that they (the person who moved the poem) didn't believe it was a poem and it would do better in another forum. I was shocked and hurt...and still would like to know why. Now as far as length...I've also read poems by others which are very long winded as mine and not one negative comment was made. As far as banning people from this site...it must be difficult to decide as a monitor/leader...but what is fair is fair when others suffer for the misbehavior of others. As for myself...I have posted in several other sites and there is always trouble, people leaving very degrading hurtful comments, under the names of the other poets even????? I have been that target myself and it gets to the point where you say to yourself...this isn't nice or fun anymore. So...I commend all of you who do monitor as it must be a very hard task at times...and also, people have to understand there are consequences for their hurtful actions in lashing out at others...so by banning, yes it probably does hurt everyone to do so...but perhaps in the end, that person who was banned for a time, will learn a very difficult lesson. And after reading all of you I am certain...if someone is banned and writes to the forum, with an apology and promise to try and do better, I don't believe there is a mean bone in any of your bodies that would say no, to another chance. I will though say honestly...when my poems where commented on as I explained above...I was very hurt and felt like for some reason some were attacking me. Oft times I'm misunderstood as I'm open and friendly, but not to the point that I would ever consider hurting someone elses feelings. Or attacking them unless they back me up against a wall. Point being, I simply wanted to add my two cents into this for what it's worth. In the same, again, allow me to reinforce, that I'm not a person who holds a grudge...but do like to talk about things, get them out in the open so I can understand the other person's point of view...and then express mine. Then wal la...its history, and I'll extend my hand in friendship hoping the other person will do the same. But...I'm finding, that the older I become, the less tolerant I am...and at the same time...am learning something here from everyone of you and I like that very much. I apologize to everyone if my posts in the past have been taken the wrong way. When I write it is usually in a spiritual sense, of wonderful and positive experiences with my faith and with people. If I've offended anyone, then please tell me...don't cast me off to the side telling me that my poetry belongs in another forum...and when one is repremanded about bad language or sexual content in poetry that children read...then by Gosh, that rule should apply to everyone. So, there you have it...my comment, beliefs and no bad intent meant...just airing and adding my point of views and I'm always open to learn. Thank you for taking the time to read and My best to all of you Lee J. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"You say 'don't omit the member' - how exactly would you have the system so the behaviour is 'punished', but the member stays? How would you ensure that the bad behaviour, that has been demonstrated by that member in a consistent, destructive pattern, goes?" Severn If someone speaks out wrongly or offensively I think we need to speak out rightly and defensivly to that person, sometimes more privately, sometimes more publicly to show him that he is wronging and offending, by breaking a rule. The person needs to know that we are offended and that we will defend his own presence no matter what. If people in anyway seek to offend him even indirectly, that will probably make him more offensive and less willing to listen. Therefore we have to defend him even though he will offend us. After one smacks a wild sword against a secure shield held up by many for an age or two eventually the sword shall break and the person will know right there the shield is his as well. But the more hands that are taken away from the sheild to put a sword out the less secure is the sheild and more endangered people are of being victims to a sword. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
My life, on most days is extremely filled with the needs of my family. I spent many hours tending to their needs. So, if I take time away to comment here, I assure you that my comments are not to be watered down. Nor will they be. These threads seem to go on and on and on with comments and more comments....saying over and over the same basic things, on both sides.....so far....I don't see either side budging.... Personally, I am on the moderator/establishment side. Why? The why is because I have been in those trenches that they are in, I have been in many discussions that have taken place over hours, sometimes days to come to what would be an agreeable solution that would not be biased and yet would protect the readership of PIP as well. People keep saying.... COME IN, join the moderators, take a turn in the trench and make the decisions that have to be made, that are made on a voluntary basis, by people like everyone else, with lives of their own, with kids that they too have to tend to. But, they take the time, they toil over the decisions with a great deal of empathy as well as wisdom and without getting into a hurry or making a decision that is not agreeable to all. It goes beyond a reasonable doubt here at PiP. A lot of hard work is put into the daily runnings of a website that is HUGE, has thousands of members. And to labor over something that concerns how many individuals? What, 3, 6?....For so many hours, when proper decisions have been made fairly, when all other avenues have been looked at and exhausted by PEOPLE who care? I'll say it again....COME IN, take a turn at moderating....then perhaps your thoughts might change somewhat. You might see why a group of a dozen or so work so hard to protect the thousands. There ya have it, my two cents... And....LeeJ, thank you for your input as well. Your input is as valuable as any other person's input is.... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I also know the members do a great heap to keep the site up as well. Why don't you consider emphasizing that beside the moderators? Even some members I know of that were banned showed much more than what they got banned for. Some others that got banned early, never got to show much more than what they got banned for; most of them finally probably go away with more spite than insight. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Thank you for your reply Ess, I appreciate it. Firstly, might I suggest to you that this: 'If someone speaks out wrongly or offensively I think we need to speak out rightly and defensivly to that person, sometimes more privately, sometimes more publicly to show him that he is wronging and offending, by breaking a rule' already happens? Members aren't banned willy nilly lol. A member doesn't act up and then get sent to a permanent naughty bin with little or no consultation - both private and public. Members are often addressed privately (to repeat others - sign up for deputy moderating and have a look how it all works. It isn't perfect, but a lot of hard work gets put in to looking after this place, Ess). You might also notice that Ron devotes a lot of time in writing long, considered replies in threads where all hell has broken loose. So do others. Members and moderators alike. You are very right in pointing out that members play an important part in maintaining passions. And you know what? Most moderators here see themselves as members first, then as moderators. After all, it's usually out of love for passions that members volunteer to take a more active role in the general housekeeping. Your metaphor: 'The person needs to know that we are offended and that we will defend his own presence no matter what' of the sword and shield is a little more challenging to me. It raises issues of time, energy and responsibility. Firstly, moderators (and members) have limited time here, Essy. Most come to relax, contribute and to feel like part of a family. If there is a member that we have to consistently manage it takes a LOT of time and energy. Now, like someone else pointed out there is a lot we don't see happening that goes on behind the scenes. Some of the members who have found themselves banned have sent abusive emails, have stalked people etc. There must come a point where the question is asked - is this worth the time and energy it takes to be the shield against this person's sword? Is it fair to demand this much from our moderators, and our members? Which brings me to responsibility. It seems to me that your suggestion removes the responsibility for the offender and that offender's actions. Do you not believe that as adults, members need to take responsibility for the way they conduct themselves in an internet community where interation is limited to words and screens? Just as we need to take responsibility for the way we behave around others in our face to face lives? Is it our responsibility, Ess, that a banned member goes away with more spite than insight? Has that member not chosen to conduct themselves in a consistently inappropriate manner, and despite the efforts of the moderating team (and members), not curbed that behaviour? Finally, I have an insight myself for you. I know you are a loving person, Ess. I know you like to believe the best about people. I've seen that emerge in so many of your posts. That's a good thing in today's world, and I respect, and care for you, for it. However, it does have its limitations. At the moment it seems that your view is one current in modern society - that of the offender as the victim. Unfortunately, to me at least, this view has been grossly exaggerated, and while I agree with rehabilitation and second chances, to an extent, I also believe in responsibility and punishment. I also believe that the time and energy of the people here needs to be respected, and considered. This is why I myself believe that banning is sometimes a very appropriate action - please also remember, it's not a common action (thankfully). Have some hugs eh? K |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Ess- I just went back and read this entire thread again, and it seems to me that the only response that you seem to have (boiling everything down to its basic core) is taht we need to just keep editing/deleting offending posts, and asking the offenders to stop without having any real consequenses. That is the absolute same thing as not having ANY consequenses at all... and is not an effective way of running ANYTHING. If you have a child that is swearing and breaking the rules and being disrespectful, and you do nothing but ask the child to stop, and there is no reason for the child to do so, then they wont. Plain and simple. The child realizes that the rules are a total joke and that they are able to do as they wish, and no one is going to stop them. In order for the authority figures in ANY situation (in this case the Admin, Moderators and DM's... and, of course, Ron) they need to have some way of enforcing the rules because without enforcement, there is no regulation. Consider PIP as you would a schoolroom. A student screws up, and the teacher tells the student stop. The student continues, and the teacher removes the student from the situation. The student continues, and they are suspended. Further actions by the student leads to an eventualy expultion. HOWEVER... if the offense is severe enough, then the child is suspended/expelled immediately because it is for the greater benefit of the students that remain. I would like to follow up with Severn's question and ask how you feel this can be more effectively achieved. And, as Severn said, this is a serious question and not the typical "yeah, can you do better" response. If there is a better way of ensuring that the members here can be the happiest and least offended, then I would be willing to jump on that bandwagon and ask for the chages to be considered. I would also once again whole heartedly invite you to spend a mere 2 weeks as a moderator. With the amount of time and energy you have dedicated to this issue, you could have helped to make the decisions that could popssibly prevent some of the things you are writing against in this thread. Anyhow, I have yapped long enough. But now the animal is in pain... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Severn, All you need to do is put "ever" after your own name and the truth becomes spelt out very cleary: SevernEver SeverNever SevernEver will be part of Passions. SeverNever a part of Passions. These kind of tokens I may never overlook. Otherwise you might've succeeded in changing my mind! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
 shaking head at Essy.... that's, um, an interesting way to look at things? (whisper...I am inclined to take looooong breaks you know) K |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(smiling) do ever and never truly exist Ess? you obviously are much more willing to give of yourself and do so with a patience which is beyond my own... and we, would at this point agree to disagree on the point. I am reminded of how a dike if allowed to leak will fail, but for the finger of a young person who stood all night to hold the waters... he stopped an erosion... by stopping something we all need to live from doing damage... |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
A sword of equal durability to a shield will not fail, nor will the shield, so it falls to the bearers as to which will prevail. A better analogy might be that of the squeaking wheel getting the grease. (although I am sure there have been times when the mechanic simply replaced the entire axle ) JThere is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't think the sword borne may ever go as long as a shield without cutting something or someone, Jaime. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
As low as one's words or deeds may get his or her presence should never be treated as low. One's presense should always be defended. For that was never a wrong. And you will never convince me therefore that it was right to make someone no longer present. There are many consequences. But banning aborts them all. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Essorant, You're missing something. What about the agency and responsibility of the members? What about what they want? Did you ever think that some people just want to be banned? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Brad, I'm sure indeed sometimes it is the will of some to actually be banned, and that is why they may make their trouble. But that trouble-making might not come about if they didn't have being banned as a point to play upon in the first place. Just something to think upon. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Have you ever spent time at a completely open forum? That's were I, and many of us, started this internet thing. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
http://www.basstabarchive.com/discussion This is the link to a discussion group that has no one to enforce any rules. It used to be a place where people from all over the world would stop in and discuss music, the industry, and muical equipment, as well as the flavor of the week, and favorite artists. There were even a few "famous" musicians that stopped by. Essorant, I invite you to take 30 seconds of your time right now to peruse the site when the owner lost control, and refused to take any action against anyone who infringed upon his site... then come back and honestly tell us that banning members who truly deserve it is a bad thing. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
A wonderful example, Ringo... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
ouch... K |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If banning is the action that all or even most control revolves around then count me no more part of this site. It is the only thing I don't support of Passions. Yet I put it to the side in my mind because I didn't think it was a central point. If it is central though it is very disappointing to hear. I don't wish to be part of it. |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
you have not heard a word that has been said here, that's obvious unless you see what goes on behind the scenes, then you don't really know, do you? Banning is not a central point and is not the first way to deal with trouble. You seem to be making this a central point though. People have tried to explain this issue to you Essorant, but you seem to be stuck like a broken record. I'm sorry to see you go away not understanding what has been told to you here, but if it's what you choose, then so be it  |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
after everything said--viewpoints on the whys--you're leaving? thats classic-- ~~**~~ |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
After Brad's question/suggestion of a completly "open" community and Ringo's example of a community whose control has completly been lost and two other members' agreement on that point, as a response to not banning people, expressing what they seem to feel is an opposite of banning people,that the result is abandoning all control, then banning people is being is there suggested as the central control; that was their treatment, and that is what prompted my above response. I don't believe that is what it is but then again I am not "behind the scenes" I go by what people are saying. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Essy, if you "go by what people are saying" then listen to what they are saying in this thread too. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Pete, My ache at this point is that people keep on suggesting that it is not something central or integral, depended upon, but then they make it out as if all civilized behavior will cease if banning were removed from the site. If it is what they say it is then why do they seem to treat it as if it were impossible for the site to continue if banning members were to discontinue? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Depends on what you mean when you use the word central, Essorant. Banning people is not a "dominant or controlling power or influence." On the contrary, it's extremely rare. However, expecting everyone to take responsibility for their own words and actions, which must include bearing the known consequences of their actions, will always be "of basic importance" and "essential" to any social structure, including these forums. What you fail to see, Essorant, in your idealistic naivety, is that enforcing responsibility does much more than simply protect the community. It is equally important to the individual. Platitudes of love and kindness are easy, and largely meaningless, if you're only willing to do what someone else wants of you. Feeding a ten-year-old cake and ice cream for dinner every night isn't a sign of love, and giving an alcoholic a drink will never be an act of kindness. Moving beyond platitudes will often, and perhaps always, require hard choices. Taking the easy path is the greatest cruelty of all. I would honestly be much more impressed with your passion, Essorant, even though I feel it is misguided, if you weren't so quick to forsake it. You lament the abandonment of an individual, through banning them, even when the individual is in direct conflict with the needs of the community? You insist the community should never give up trying to resolve the conflict, even when there seems little hope the individual will ever listen? Yet, what happens when no one agrees with you? What happens at the first twinge of frustration? Your answer, it appears, is to abandon the community. You seem to be very quick, Ess, to turn to exactly the same solution you accuse us of employing. Apparently, you are no wiser in reconciling irreconcilable differences than are we. |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Essorant, let me give you an example....or confession maybe... I have been here four and a half years. In that time, I have seen many types of people. I have disagreed with the administation here. I have fought battles that weren't mine. I have opened my mouth loud and I have dealt with certain things out of anger instead of being an adult. I have hurt people. Some I meant to, most I did not. I even hurt Ron a few times. I could have been banned, and rightly so. But these are caring people here. I have been "taken into the private room" (through email) and we sat down and talked, I was told things that I did not know before...and eventually through patience and my understanding of things, my problems were solved. I have been given plenty of chances here and I believe the administration is not out to hurt or punish anyone, but must establish and enforce rules to keep the peace here. This is a huge community with many different people with many different opinions and ideas about issues. And being typed words instead of face-to-face, sometimes misunderstandings are formed which lead to anger and pain...and you know what the snowball effect is, right? There are a great many relationships here, hot issues, and things could go bad very quickly. I myself admire the moderators and Ron for taking the time and having a keen eye to see problems before many of us are even aware that someone was about to get hurt. There are many other interventions before the last resort of banning. We just don't see the 'communications' because they are behind the scenes, but I know they are there. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't have a social government and community behind me to face the wrong I see--actually it looks like the whole government and most of the community is against me. Therefore I am up against more force to be doubtful about and doubtful of the means I have of facing the wrong. But I know this for sure, if somehow I was able to ban the whole government and community that does and supports the wrong I see, though it is obvious it would ban me for for seeing me do a wrong, I would never do such a thing, even though the wrong continues. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Essorant- The wisest man I ever knew told me one time that I could very easily bring down the building by beating my head against the wall... it would take forever, and unless I had MAJOR amounts of help, I would get a headache LONG before I accomplished the mission. Then he told me the easiest way to effect change in m the world was to do so from the INSIDE. So, what is he saying??? You have obviously found out that you are not going to change anyone's mind by beating your head against the walls... HOWEVER, if you were to step off the high ground for a very brief 2 weeks and step inside the building to have a look around, then you would be able to see what is truly going on and how you could best begin to make those changes... and then people would be more apt to listen to you because they know you understand what happens on the inside. I would suggest that you pick something like Prose, if you don't have a great amount of free time. I started there and had ONE post that needed looking at in my two weeks. This suggestion has been made to you more than once by more than one person. And you are very much welcome to join us, and we would freely ask again that you join us. The only way for the moderators to do their job properly is to have members with differing views making the decisions. And I respectfully suggest that, since you have been politely asked and sincerely invited more than once to see what being a moderator is truly about so you can help to start the changes that you feel need to be made, if you choose not to, that is your decision, and we will all stand by it, and will respect you for making that decision for yourself... however, if that is your decision then I, personally, don't want to hear another word from you about how the moderators are doing anything that you don't like, as you have lost the priveledge and the integrity for anyone to take you seriously. That is just MY opinion, though, and may not reflect the thoughts of the management of this site. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, it seems the scroll has shut down: http://scroll.org/ Ess, Maybe start your own site? PS You know being banned from a website really ain't that bad. I've been banned from one. It can be a wake up call. |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
"I don't have a social government and community behind me to face the wrong I see" So I guess if you don't have an army behind you, you're going to take off... I don't want to be mean or harsh but, as Ron said, I'd admire you a bit more if you stuck by what you believed instead of taking off when you realized you were the minority. Just know this about life in general: just because you go against the grain doesn't mean you're wrong. It doesn't mean you're right either, but it doesn't mean that being against the grain should be your main purpose for fleeing. If you change your opinion baised on what you've seen/read, then fine. If you leave just because we disagree, then you have a lot to learn... Oh, make me Thine forever |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ringo Thank you. But I have to gently decline. I don't have any complaint towards the moderators at all; only about the conclusion of banning people. |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Essorant, let's say for example that we have a husband, wife, and mistress all posting here...the husband wants to stay with the wife, but the mistress has other plans... now, the mistress is making threats and writing upsetting poetry and other people get involved...and things get out of hand. so, after all other measures to stop the upsetting posts and arguements that are getting way out of hand and may even lead to harm to one of the parties involved...what should be the next step? Are you even aware of what kind of people we have had and still have at this place? Some are timebombs waiting to explode...do you know that emails fly all over the place and vicious rumors get spread? Do you think we should continue to put up with hatred towards one another, towards our friends, towards the USA, or whatever the issue may be that is causing such an uproar? Do you think you would be very good in riot prevention and crowd control. Do you think you would probably just stand back and let people kill each other? Every society has rules...laws. The are consequences for breaking those laws. If someone robbed your house, would you want them to be free to do it to someone else or would you want them to go to jail, for a little while, to get some rehabilitation, maybe have some time to think about what they did and how they hurt you and your family... or just to keep them from doing it again...you'd expect jail time, right? Or no? |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
that may be an extreme example, but out of all the years the site has been around and almost 8000 members, how many do you think have actually been banned? or even just suspended temporarily? not many We have a great neighborhood here...I appreciate the efforts to keep it clean and "crime-free". Don't you, Ess? |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
the greatest opinions to listen to may be those of some banned members who have returned...if they thought it a terrible community or that it was so unfair..why then would they CHOOSE to return, after either apologizing or explaining their reasonings and coming to some type of compromise...in private with Ron/ and or the moderators. There are a few of us...whether banned or self-banned(myself included, once)who have returned. M |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
here is a PERFECT example that may well shoot down any theory you had/have on banning members and second chances...how this site works, and how we welcome back with open arms! /pip/Forum3/HTML/003017.html ~~**~~ |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It is wonderful to see Goldenrose is back. I Hope good lessons continue to be learnt on both sides. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Was banning really the virtue? |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
I think you like arguing for arguing's sake..and it seems you are the one who hasn't learned a lesson at all from any of this why not post some poems...or go into CA and voice your opinions and give this one a rest...obviously you haven't gained what those of us have, who have been through the complete process and wish to continue to particpate here. I only put my one cent in to show you that those who have been banned or left, many times return when they are ready to adjust to the site and its rules. M...some people must have "the last word", I suppose...and it won't be me. *s |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I am terrible at arguing so it's not exactly my pleasure. I came in here to voice at something that I think has been a wrong in the past and shall be a wrong in the future if continued. People learn from wrongs certainly but it doesn't make the wrongs right. I promise not to continue if you don't wish me too. [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-25-2004 12:12 PM).] |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
I guess we all have had the virtue of patience with you. Personally, I tend to think you like what you are doing.... Maybe you need to listen a little better, it's all been said and frankly any continuation from any one would most likely be pointless....in other words you are beating a dead horse....let it go...if you don’t have the answer by now, 10 to 1 says you never will find it.... Maybe a lesson can be learned for you. However, I am doubtful at this point… ~~**~~ |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I am too far behind with other points brought up to deal with being treated like that, Greeneyes. I never treated you as if you are not learning anything, and I certainly I hope I never will. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
I have to agree....both sides continue to reemphasize the same points, I see litle headway, few concessions. Why don't we just move forward in our primary reason for being here. It appears to me that the issue will never come to a mutually agreeable resolutiion. That is my vote!! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That is a good point, Magnus. I'm sorry for getting in a bad mood. I hope to let this rest for a while and look back on some peoples points and think on things. Thanks for expressing your opinions. Let this be a close for now. take care, Essorant |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
sorry all...I don't mean to keep this going here but I would like answers to my post up there in slot #58 |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Passingshadows It has been emphasized that the cases that lead to someone being banned are very rare and deserve sometimes more seperate, sometimes more joint communication and extra time. I think if members and moderators are willing to take all the beginning steps in these it is necessary to take them all the way, none giving up on other. If some are hanging onto something at Passions that is keeping them from "exploding" isn't that more of a reason why not to ban them? And if they explode isn't it safer in words rather than in some other way, perhaps very physically? I don't see hate being tolerated here, I don't hate people that hate either, or believe they ought to be removed from society. The hate needs to be removed, not the people. And only people may remove hate. It is not going to be removed by removing people. "Are you even aware of what kind of people we have had and still have at this place? Humankind, that is the kind! "Every society has rules...laws. The are consequences for breaking those laws. If someone robbed your house, would you want them to be free to do it to someone else or would you want them to go to jail, for a little while, to get some rehabilitation, maybe have some time to think about what they did and how they hurt you and your family... or just to keep them from doing it again...you'd expect jail time, right? Or no?" Definitly But a jail locks one more fixedly into society, not out of it. If we followed the idea of banning physically that would suggest simply throwing a criminal across the border to some foriegn frontier to let him fare to whatever chance befalls him there. If every country did that, criminals would be everywhere! [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-25-2004 04:40 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Ess, I don't know of a country [but I could be wrong] that some sort of criminal element doesn't exist. Were that not true, there would indeed be a Utopia and I for one would get a one-way ticket. I know I've often wanted to go to Brigadoon, but I don't like long naps.  I truly believe you want your cake, the ability to eat it, and with ice cream. I certainly applaud your wanting to make a just and true society that everyone stays, no matter what, but until you can show us, actually lay out a plan that can be adhered to by all members, I simply don't see what objective you are trying to gain by arguing against something that is apparently working for the majority of members at Passions. It's been stated a few times above: sign up for a rotation in the Deputy Moderators Forum, and see for yourself the steps taken to ensure that we are not acting off the cuff, but take true concern with every questionable post, or poet, who fails to adhere to the guidelines they agreed to follow when first applying for membership, just as you did. But did you read the guidelines when you clicked the button? I think, probably not. Why do I think that? Because if you truly felt then as you feel now, this would have been "too rigid" a structure for you to want to be a part of, and I seriously believe you would have considered that before clicking "yes".  |
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2writeis2be Junior Member
since 2004-01-11
Posts 45Live in London, but from TX |
I don't agree w/the banning that goes on in certain cases. Seems to incorporate a bit too much sensitivity to be sensible. I know somebody who was banned from here awhile back, and don't think the reasons were just. All he was doing was writing about a topic in a discussion forum--he chose a topic for people to respond to, just to see what their view was. Then, immediately he was jumped on by the moderators and "close knit" members for merely stating his view on something--without may I add naming any one individual, cursing, etc. So basically he was banned for using his freedom of speech and having a mere discussion about something some didn't agree with. Shame that everyone takes everything so personally--because it normally is just making a mountain out of a molehill. Ruins the point of a "discussion forum," don't you think? |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
... |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
removed by Cpat Hair as possibly being offensive or being considered as abuse. [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:24 PM).] |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
Ron...you are a smart aleck...you know that???? but you made me smile~~ M |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
 Classic Ron!!  ~~**~~ |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
edited by author [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:25 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
see why I love this guy??? sheesh.  |
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Munda Member Elite
since 1999-10-08
Posts 3544The Hague, The Netherlands |
Ok guys... enough making fun of others. Let's keep it nice shall we? Essorant simply means she's against banning within Passions and that doesn't mean she has no idea what goes on in this world. Of course she wants a child molester punished and of course she believes in jailtime for criminals. She's neither stupid, nor dumb. You owe her a little more credit than that! It is hard enough to make a statement of which you know most won't agree with and having to defend your point of view against so many arguments of people who are in favour of banning as an ultimate solution. All I've learned from this topic is that Essorant has a heart of gold and a purity I envy her for. I could use a little more of that. To me she seems a very good person, always willing to look at the positive of people, in spite of the negative. Is it realistic to want to love everybody? Perhaps not, but more of us could try and trust me, there's a high price she pays, because she will be hurt more often than most of us, since she's willing to open up which makes her very vulnerable. I've been following this topic and haven't read anything but the same arguments. Neither have I read any solutions from Essorant, so my question would be to see some real examples why people get banned from PIP and a solution from Essorant what more can be done before banning someone, or to prevend banning completely. Of course it may not be possible to give examples of what happened behind the scenes, but someone could always email Essorant to explain it a bit further I guess. In the meantime let's agree you disagree and not bring all this extreme real life stuff into it. It's very hard to discuss things with one person, so I figure it must be awful to discuss it with so many of you. One of the main reasons I prefer to stay out of discussions like this.  Just my two cents folks. Munda |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Shy of extending to Ess an example of one poet who has been banned, (leaving names out of course)....Or Ess. agreeing to put in a short tour of the Moderator forum....I feel we have gone about as far in this thread as we can. Both sides have opinions, and both sides stand by their opinions...I see nothing else that we can gain from this thread continuing. Just my own opinion.... |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
so as not to be considered abusive [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:26 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Come on, Ron, you're smart enough to know that sarcasm can be abusive too. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Christopher.. you are correct. I am smart enough to know that, but did you truly find the sarcasm I used to be abusive? obviously so... so... my humble apologies to all, and I have removed the replies above so that they do not remain to hurt or offend anyone. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
Munda...just so you know...I sent Essorant an email with an example or two earlier today, including myself as an example. The others were without names because even behind the scenes in an email, I wouldn't think that would be right to do. Only those who have been banned can give their examples and the moderators their reasons. Otherwise it would be gossip...and unfair to both. Anyway...most all can be read in the archives in this forum and other discussion ones. Because many of the behaviors that banned them are in these forums. It is idealistic to think that we can love everyone despite what they do...and one may mean well by it but more than likely would cause more harm than good. I thought this would have ended by now...but I guess it can only end if Essorant asks for it to be a closed thread. M |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Words can do damage just like a physical attack...and many times, words can hurt a person worse and the pain and scars last longer than any physical harm. There have been times I have cried all night because of things that have been written here. The fact that no hatred is seen in here is because of the moderators being on their toes. Many times the entire site has been shut down completely, sometimes for days, until tempers have cooled. Many posts have been edited or deleted before the intended "target" was able to see the words and react. The "shooter" is usually warned or counseled in email...and a lot of it is cut off at the pass. But some people still persist. As far as I'm concerned, people who don't follow the guidelines are usually given a heck of a lot more than three strikes, and when they continue disrupting the peace and "beating up on people", they should get banned. We learned it in kindergarten...if you don't play nice with others, you go stand in the corner. |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Essorant wrote: "Definitly But a jail locks one more fixedly into society, not out of it. If we followed the idea of banning physically that would suggest simply throwing a criminal across the border to some foriegn frontier to let him fare to whatever chance befalls him there. If every country did that, criminals would be everywhere!" So should we have a "cell" here at Passions just for those banned people so they can still belong to society? Right. Jail bans people from a normal society. And in jail, they have solitary confinement...so is that like a society of one? And what about the death penalty? Tough one. Every "establishment" has rules and laws and consequences for not abiding by those rules and laws. This site is no different than any other place. Essorant, if you intend to fight for the abolishment of banning, you have a long hard fight ahead...banning (in one form or another) is everywhere. go into a bar and get into a fight...you get kicked out screw up at work and the company loses a half mil...you get fired don't pay your electric bill...they cut your power off etc...etc...etc... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Let me tell all of the people who may get banned....you have to be patient and understand that when people are banned you must have really transgressed the rules seriously. I have thankfully been allowed back to PIP....i was sent on a short break from the pages of this site and i can tell you it has done me good.... I have taken the punnishment and returned a more happier and rounded person for it....you have to have rules and that is what we have here....but i am sure that if you realy sat down and talked to the admins and moderators your problems will be alayed..... I do not have to say this....but i will anyway....i was treated hashly because of the hurt that i caused and i deseved to be treated harshly..or otherwisehow would i have learned from my mistake?...i have come to realise that it is far better to show love and suport for fellow poets..not engage in futile arguments of why and where.... Be happy that you are part of a site were a real community sprit exhists....i know first hand what happens and you DO miss posting and sharing..if you think that Ron and the other staff are not fair to the poets..use me as an example and see the fairness and understanding that they showed to me...by letting me back on....they could have kept me in the wilderness for years..but they didnt....to them i am thankfull and all i want to do now is to promate harmony and love to all of my fellow poets...if people do this they will not transgress any rules....and not get banned.... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
Ron, I have read this and several other discussions that has been about "Banning", and wonder how many times you have to tell people, "follow the rules". When I enter your house (which this site is) I will follow your guidelines, no questions asked. Thank you for having the patients of Job! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Thank you all for your comments, especially nakedthoughts for the e-mail she sent me yesterday. I wish to reply to you all, if that is possible. No, I don't think we are weak, are not all able to defend ourselves in one way or another; the site I sense is not on unstable ground where an authority's or a member's position is not able to be strongly defended. We are all able to defend in one way or another on our own or with others; speak out "privatly" or publicly in support or in ire; edit, or delete, posts that have wrong expressions. When people show disrespect, an offense, even hate, to me the person should not be treated like the disrespect, the offense or the hate. His or her manners are not bad because the person is bad and deserves to go, the person is bad because his or her manners are bad and deserve to go--and those I believe are what should be "banned" in full defense of the person's presence. People ask me what are the better means of dealing with people? Well, I can't believe we don't already have the means. I think all the right people and rules are already in the right place. That's why banning seems so out of place. The whole site and it's established state are the better means for dealing with people and have transcend it so well that it looks barbarian-tool beside a golden sceptre. It seems now mostly incorporated in the structure for paranoia and because it is expected of internet communities. But no one has offered proof yet of what it avails and how that is better than dealing with them from here, togetherly, or personally/privatly if we may. The person is severed away and asked to help himself on his own away from Passions; that is no help. Fortunatly many are able to help themselves and believe in Passions still as Goldenrose. But that doesn't change the truth that there are many who don't come back. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
But Ess, not coming back after being banned is their choice. It is up to them to make the amends necessary when all access has been given to them to do so. It is a stubbornness that keeps some from returning and the give and take it needs in a world to run smoothly. Some are just not willing to give in at all to compromise...their choice to stay away. And much of the leaving lately on here has not been due to banning. It's been due to some people being unhappy or finding another place or forum that they are more comfortable in. There is nothing wrong with that. Some have to voice their unhappiness with some rules or what they seem is "unevenness" but that is all perception. We all interpret certain rules differently and that is why there are many moderators and not one, I would assume. It would be nice if all would get along...but is that the way it is in real life off of here? I don't think so. You will always have your dissenters. M |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Essorant wrote: "But no one has offered proof yet of what it avails and how that is better than dealing with them from here, togetherly, or personally/privatly if we may." A person is given many chances, there are many different avenues taken before banning. Some persist in breaking the rules and going outside the guidelines. When someone is getting "out of order", a great many people from the community come running to help, to give advice, to try to calm things down, but sometimes it's to no avail. So shall we just hand them over to you Essorant? Maybe you have some magic to make a person follow the guidelines, to fix behavior that we haven't been able to fix in numerous efforts. It's easy for you. You can leave any time. I have been attacked here before and I could not sleep for days, didn't want to eat, was so upset that I cried all night, so angry that I wanted to find the person and confront him to his face...all because of words. This is a home for me. I will not leave, and I will not be attacked when I come here either. If someone attacks you, you can simply leave without further interruption of your life. I don't think it would matter to you. But not all of us are so easy to turn our backs and walk away now. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
So, Ess, are you saying that I and the other moderators should waste our valuable time, effort, and emotions on continually [endlessly] deleting posts and replies, and sending out emails, and being the target of MUCH harassment... to avoid banning someone who's repeatedly broken the rules? Tell you what - you convince everyone to follow the rules and we won't ban any more people. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No. The waste in my opinion is treating it as if it is a waste or endless, and that any one is on her own dealing with people who fare amiss when it has been proven that all the authority and many members make it no waste, and no endless endeavour publicly or privately to help people when they need to be helped out--in these rarer cases, I think we should be there to help people more than ever. If they are doing a wrong isn't that a strong enough reason to be? |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I guess what it comes down to, Ess, is that I'm not willing (nor, I imagine are most of the other moderators) to martyr myself to a cause I feel is better served by calling an end, rather than enabling a continued behaviour that I don't feel is helpful to myself or the community as a whole. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
Well, 13 posts since my last comment, and I still see the score as 0-0. no men out, the lone batter still awaiting the next pitch. Ladies, gentlemen, have we not beat this horse into a thousand shreds? |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
But .. but.. Barry... we haven't broken the stick we were using yet! Besides...I can still see where the horse was..and can still stir dust from there... a thousand pieces only? |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
You know what Barry? I give up trying to explain. I guess that is what the moderators do eventually, when the one about to be banned seems to lack the understanding of the rules..and the many attempts from those on here. and as I have said before(or at least thought it)...some people like to argue for the sake of arguing and will not even budge to see both sides of the equation. The many moderators and deputy moderators listen to all sides and then and only then are decisions made...Ess, you seem to be only listening to your own words and not even beginning to understand what others...the many others, have tried to explain to you. Banning is only as permanent as the person being banned wants to make it....so what is so bad about that and it never has to be done publicly to make them embarassed unless they choose to make it so. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
M. I agree, we have devoted much time to a thread that has not been resolved. Additionally, I have never heard one remark from the poet (Essorant) about their choice of joining the team in moderating for a mere two week tour. I am beyond attempting to resolve this issue any further, and I wish that the thread would be closed, and lets get on with writing and sharing poetry. This issue will never be resolved in my opinion. And I feel that any additional time that I devote to it will be of little value. JMHO.... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I didn't think it was wrong to express opinion and not end up having a completly changed opinion or changing opinions, or seeing some change that one believes better. So I suppose Nakedthoughts was right about wishing to argue. I don't believe in banning, so I argued with those that do. But my own choice in the end would still be in the majorities wishes too. That is where I now must come into agreement with "banning". I promise I will try to make choice for the majority as a member. And believe any in a position of authority should probably do the same, no matter what his or her beliefs. If the majority says the sky is green, then I guess it must be  [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-26-2004 06:47 PM).] |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
awww Ess, and I thought you were doing so good in your response until that last addition *s |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If the majority doesn't believe in something do you think it ever right for authority to choose for a belief in it? In this case the authority and the majority don't believe in not banning. But that doesn't make it right. Someday you may come back to this thread and see it very differently. [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-26-2004 09:49 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
it could philosophically be argued that if the majority thought the sky was green, it would be, because the definition of "green" would be adjusted by the mass understanding. as is, we all think it's "blue," which is just a manner of expression. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*chuckle* and that's why I love this guy! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The majority also believes that morning is arrived at midnight though the sun is no where in sight. That does not remove the moon, or the darkness or the stars. It is night, even though they wrongly call it morning. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
The problem as I see it now...from your interpretation, is that you don't understand the definition of banning and the rules that apply to it. And also it is not that they do not believe in "not banning" because the majority of the posts and poets are never banned...you have taken a very small action of this community and basically have condemned us for knowing that this rule exists and is meant as a behavioral control. If that is your belief, so be it. You can twist everyones words around as you have done many times to suit you beliefs and you still will be misinterpreting the meaning behind the use of a ban on this site...which is to keep respect for others. You can continue to keep this thread running but you are not making any more points than before...and as Barry has said and a few others before him...it has now become a waste of my time. I leave it to others if they feel it is necessary, to make their points. As others have also said, you have not even given one example of how you would take a member who misbehaves and change his behavior so as not to be banned....would you give them one warning, two, ten...15 and still allow them access here to either upset the community or post obscenities or mature content in open for the young people who read here to see...would you make an apology as a moderator for that member and make excuses as he was having a bad day? Just what would you do...there are limits everywhere in this world...are you saying that you don't believe in limits? Thank you for any response you may make that has some answers in it. M |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
But Ess, morning does not consist only of dawn or daybreak. Morning encompasses the whole of the time span between midnight and noon, and it has nothing to do with the opinions of the majority or those in authority. It just is. But I suppose the authorities could decree otherwise if they so chose. In fact, I'm sure they would if there could be money made in doing so. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
This is my last remark in this thread, and I encourage the rest to do the same. NO, and I mean NO progress has been made. And I would have thought that most of us have far more important endeavors to take care of. Like raising kids, getting them to sleep, etc....spending a little time with them.....but NO, here we all are expending countless pages of dialogue....and thus far nothing has come of it that is of any consequence..... And if you don't like what I have written, well....don't read it.... |
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LoveBug
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697 |
'round and 'round and 'round they go.... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:that's cheatin'. many of us do probably have other important things to do... but some times (and some days) it's actually fun to have a disagreement. Ess - so what you're saying by your most recent post is that everyone else in the world is wrong, while you're right? how'd i miss that memo? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't remember saying that. [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-27-2004 01:16 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
With all respect, how many times does one need to tell us he is no longer going to participate in this discussion. If you're bored with it then quit wasting your time on it. Simple. Early on it looked like this thread might be going a little personal but the last couple of pages, it seems like a friendly, if sometimes a little heated, discussion. Essorant is trying very hard to make a minority point while most of the rest of us are trying to dispute it. No, I don't expect any opinions to be changed as a result. So it likely is a waste of everyone's time, at least in the overall grand scheme of things. But, as Christopher said, "...some times (and some days) it's actually fun to have a disagreement." Where is the wrong in that? Pete |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
I DON'T THINK IT'S FUN TO BE IGNORED! Essorant, why does it feel like you aren't reading what I've written? In post 92 I told you about how many people come running when there is trouble. And then the post AFTER that, you wrote you think people should come running and try hard to help. HELLO???? I am beginning to think you are just keeping this going to see how many pages you can rack up here. Ess, people who reach the point of no return will be banned. If you don't agree with that and don't want to be a part of it, then move on. But that's the way it is. |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
one other thing Ess...when people join the site, they (are supposed to) read the guidelines and terms of use. Nobody makes them agree. Nobody makes you agree. You have the perfect right to disagree. You have the freedom to be a member here if you accepted the terms of use of this site...and obviously you did. You also had the freedom not to accept the terms and not become a member. When the new member agrees to the terms of use and to follow by the set guidelines and they end up breaking those lines, the contract is void...they chose to void the deal...sorry Charlie |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay. With all due respect to Essorant, and all due respect to everyone's opinion here, the problem I am having with Essorant's argument is that I am applying it personally to my life. It smacks of co-dependency. Isn't there such a thing as too much tolerance? Can an abused wife afford to turn the other cheek? (which, I believe, was the good Captain's point before he edited.) Note the lack of sarcasm here. I also think it unfair for others to attempt to deem the importance of an issue--you just never know. This discussion has been borderline hostile at times, but I also have faith that Essorant is sincere in the seeking to ask the question. I also don't doubt the sincerity of the answers, despite my "offhand" applause of "sarcastic" replies. (There may be vital information in the opinions here, that others don't or can't even conceive of applying to their own lives--it might make a difference in mine--so please, if this thread wearies you, don't come here. I still have questions m'self.) It's in this spirit, that I have to ask Essorant, do you believe unconditional acceptance equals unconditional love? In my spiritual belief system, I believe all prayers are answered. Sometimes, though, the answer is "no". |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(chuckling) see why I love this woman? Ser.... two cents worth from me... which is probably worth three quarters of a cents in value, but hey, what do you buy with two sents anymore anyway?? oh..and I promise to try and not be sarcastic..or be deemed as being sarcastic... unconditional acceptance and unconditional love. If they were equal, it would mean that acceptance and love are equal... simple equation A( unconditional)+ b (acceptance) = A ( unconditional) + C (love) A+b-A= A+C-A B=C Acceptance = Love I can accept you or certain behaviors in you and still not love you... though the argument could be made love has to be defined and that if the motivation for my acceptance was respect ( again to be defined) that respect was a form of love. logically without entering into the semantics and defining the terms being discussed I have to answer you that no... unconditional acceptance does not equal unconditional love. I too would be interested in Ess's answer to this question as it may in fact lie at the root of the differences of opinion on here... If Ess is saying unconditional acceptance is equal to the betterment of people... the arguments made relative to the severity or degree of "wrong" done by the individual hold no validity. It would say... I unconditionally accept you for the betterment of everyone and in particular the person being accepted. so I would unconditionally accept even the worst of offenders no matter what the crime or offense to better that person. If you make the argument that unconditional acceptance is for the betterment of people in some cases, and past certain degrees of offense or action, I ( society or functional social group) can not accept and must in some way or form isolate you from the rest of society for societies betterment and safety.. then Ess's argument is not about whether or not banning is appropriate, but at what point is it appropriate. I read from Ess an illogical conclusion that banning is bad..and to ban someone from this sight is wrong...it doesn't help the person being banned only isolates them. Yet..also heard the argument that of course criminals or pedophiles or abusers should be isolated away from potential victims to avoid harm or possible harm to them. sorry..doesn't compute... not if we are debating that banning is wrong... now if you wish to speak to the issue of at what point is banning appropriate, I think this s totally different discussion... (didn't know you could get so much bs for two cents did you Ser?) lol |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Essorant, why does it feel like you aren't reading what I've written? In post 92 I told you about how many people come running when there is trouble. And then the post AFTER that, you wrote you think people should come running and try hard to help. " Passingshadows You need to read Christopher's post 93 more closely to see where my comment in post # 94 is coming from. Sometimes if someone is doing a wrong they may be in a state that needs people to be there for them more than ever and help. After people have taken the beginning steps and then have taken it farther, calling it "waste of time" or "endless" from there and then giving up on something or someone I believe is the waste of time. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Nakdthoughts, I didn't ignore you either. I'm just a bit exhausted of this thread. Talk with you later. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
[taking a break] [This message has been edited by Essorant (02-27-2004 12:58 PM).] |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
WWJD? We need to take our problems to the Lord and put it prayer....How would our heavenly father deal with this situation? What would Jesus do? How would Jesus treat the offender? "Forgive them father for they know not what they do!" He is our role model and example to live by.."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "Love thy neighbor as thy self"...forgive and it will be forgiven unto you".... "Love thy enemies" "Pray for those who persecute you"....To the woman caught in adultry who was thrown out of the city and going to be stoned to death....Jesus said to her.."Your sins have been forgiven","Go and sin no more"(Jesus knew her heart and knew she wanted to change..this is the key)....he told the others doing the stoning.."He who is without sin himself, may cast the first stone" ( note: all the stones were dropped..because no one is without sin..no one is perfect....) I will Pray for peace and wisdom in this situation... My theory is..most people who are mean by choice are so for some resaon...and most of the time..it is lack of love and understanding(somewhere throughout their lives)...to me this is a soul crying out for love...this soul wants love but doesn't know how to correctly receive it..so one acts out to get the love the only way they know how...even if it is attention from being bad....most have had some traumatic experiance in their lives that has caused their hearts to be filled with hate and bitterness, causing a hardened heart. Maybe when a person is being mean on purpose we should send loving ecards to them.... Tough Love is the key...yes sin has its consequences..but there is also forgiveness... The balance has to be to discipline...but to discipline with love....Love the sinner..hate the sin... I think there should be a room...like a password room..and as soon as the topic or person posting mean replies etc..logs in..they are taken to this room to work issues out..and the post is locked.Maybe emotion icons beside our name(This could be choosen as we log in) explaining what kind of mood we are in so if we had a bad day....everyone would know...etc. Sometimes it may be a matter of lack of understanding..and sometimes it is choice to be bad....through discussion and communication in this room, you can get to the bottom of the issue and nip it in the bud before it snowballs and is viewed for the public. Maybe a chat room? this way the issues can be discussed and after the discussion all of it disappears....maybe there should be one person gifted in people situations that could be a moderator just for this type of situation only...like therepy room....cooling down room...and when let out of the room and back into the forums..after three times ...then ban them ..because 1. The first time, is forgivable..(maybe temper, anger, bad day, lack of knowledge and understanding...) 2. This time they knew what they were doing, so it is a CHOICE...then a warning..They choose to do this against you willfully knowing to do better.Then it becomes personal. 3,This time they have received the warning, made the CHOICE and they continue...then they should be banned.(maybe allow them to post poetry but not replies, because poetry is therapy for most people) There are those who will never change...who come to attack..and destroy..and I say ignore them(them meaning attackers, not curious debate or discussion)..ignore their post(just like the media when serial killers want attention)...silence is a killer and the way to make a person leave is to not acknowledge them at all...then they would get bored with it and soon...go away because it isn't fun anymore..sometimes I think we fuel the fire... I know dealing with kids you have almost the same issues and I would suggest reading a book for the solution maybe "Tough Love" by James Dobson...or to ask Dr. Phil from the Dr. Phil show? Just throwing ideas out for a solution.... so we all can be on common ground... Maybe just poems could be posted and the replies be hidden...or sent to a private email box...we could still read eachothers poetry and everyone would be equal..not basing the poems on the number of replies...etc. I may be wrong but to me the poetry being posted is not as much as a problem as the replies to the poetry? When the replies are hidden one is less temted to post a mean reply..because the attention is not there for everyone to see.. Just my thoughts on the matter...I can see both sides... Ess wants to love others( teach others love to change them not shun them or throw them to the wolves,and how can one learn how to love without been given love to change them?)..and so does PIP members....love comes with responsibility, respect, and forgiveness. Some people as children are never taught this....and then grow up as adults....until something teaches them or changes them.(but they have to desire change and want to change) Some people never learn...some learn after it is too late...some let their pride get in the way and will not admitt to their mistakes.... Some are stalkers...perverts..etc..and this is where banning is needed! Just as America cannot be the world police...PIP cannot be the the physicologist for the internet. Jesus said there is no perfect world but heaven..and no peace here on earth..as long as there is good..there is evil...why would we need heaven if we could all have heaven here on earth? It all comes down to choice..to do good or evil.... Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
Essorant, I read Christopher's post and I read your reply, which seemed to have invalidated my post. This thread is a perfect example. You are exhausted from it....we are exhausted from it. This seems to be endless and a waste to go any farther, doesn't it? Well that's how we feel in trying to help and be there for a person who is insistant that they will do things their way, say what they want to say, break whatever rule they want to break, and hurt whoever they want to hurt...it gets tiring. This thread has taken up far too much of my time when I could be reading poetry and other things. So I use this thread as an example to you Ess of how the end will never come with some situations, and thus, any more emotion and time spent would be a waste. It takes a great deal of time and effort to deal with someone who may potentially be banned. There should be a point where it can be called a "waste"...when all resources have been exhausted and it's just emotionally draining to continue on. You've heard the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Same philosophy applies here, and in a lot of other situations too. That's why it's a famous saying. It's universal. And at this point, right now, I throw my hands up on this thread. I am not a very patient person. Thankfully, Ron, the moderators, and the people who come running to help out, have the kind of patience they have (and not the kind of patience I have) or we would have only half the members we have now. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
only half? heh - Ron might be the only one left! |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Essorant] Two pieces of advice; 1) Thou shalt listen to thine elders for a change 2) Learn to express your thoughts grammatically (this is a sodding literature form, after all) If you are congenitally unable to discharge the above, fare thee well (and there is life after piptalk forum) Ron, You may take me to issue with this, but so be it. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
quote: me thinks youre about to find out. sheesh ... talk about poet ego .... Through the water ... through the rain ... to the soul of everything |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
berengar - it's all fine and well to listen to one's elders - another to define philosophies from them. people are fallible, whether they be older or younger than another & i'm quite sure that age doesn't automatically turn one into a super-guru. some of the most down-to-earth, sensical, intelligent people i've known wouldn't fit into that category, while some of those who would, i wouldn't pay two pennies for their advice. intelligence and common sense don't necessarily discriminate against age. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
tsk... Essorant, if my comments seemed even remotely hostile you have my sincere apologies. My question was from the heart, and I want you to know, that while I don't agree with you at this point in my life (I used to think very much like you tho) I consider your attitude refreshing, and your hope for people is commendable. And for the record, I have no idea if Ess is male or female, nor do I know Essorant's age. I didn't think that was part of the point. |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
Sure. However, one mark of wisdom is the willingness to listen to well-intentioned advice from people who know what they are talking about (harsh? Maybe, but true nonetheless). If Essorant has ever been in a situation where she has had to control crowds or deal with domestic violence (for instance) then maybe she has something else to say. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile. berengar? You just brought out my protective instincts. I've been told by a professional that happens to be a major component of my co-dependancy. But as I pointed out to my therapist, it must have taken a degree of that very trait to become a therapist. Fine lines everywhere m'friend. I'll go cook supper for my kids now. *peace* |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Break this into two parts - well-intentioned: first, i would be more inclined to believe it was "well-intentioned" if you didn't put it across so "harshly." comes across more as a verbal slap in the face. secondly - how can anyone (especially when they don't know each other) judge another's intentions? I don't know you, so i have no way of knowing if your intentions are benevolent or not. know what they're talking about - again, how do i know you know what you're talking about. i have no idea who you are, what your background and experiences are... how do i have any way of knowing that you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. now if you choose to provide some more information and reasoning, that might help. don't misunderstand me berengar, i'm not saying your advice is valueless. i'm saying that if you're going to present something as if another has to take it as valuable, you have to provide a bit more than vague, "harsh" commentaries. midi-k -  |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
anybody else notice i was in an arguin' mood today? wonder where that came from... 'prolly hearing about Greenspunk's newest proposal.  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Well intentioned advice has this weird tendency of becoming cliché. At the moment, I'm reminded of the one about living in glass houses. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Ron, is that the one where they shouldn't throw rocks or shouldn't take showers?  |
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berengar Member
since 2004-01-02
Posts 86 |
touche. I recognise the harshness of the statement and retract it - apologies to all concerned. I was irritated. |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
I see Susan Caldwell is writing about me again....I haven't been banned cuz Ron knows I'll stalk him and leave terribly written poetry on his door step, his windshield, in his email and call his house and leave awful poetry on his answering machine... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You're not doing that already, Toe? Mmmm. 'Deer, is there something you want to confess? |
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passing shadows Member Empyrean
since 1999-08-26
Posts 45577displaced |
LOL |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Calling all Colon rabbits and chipmunks... Hold off on that bad poetry for a bit, guys... He's getting suspicious!!!...  |
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Toerag Member Ascendant
since 1999-07-29
Posts 5622Ala bam a |
No, it ain't me Ron, I just leave awful poetry on your blue pages....it's probably that Balladeer guy....have ya noticed any dead bugs in your yard?..Golf Balls? |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
HEH< I was in a place where no one got kicked out and there was no rules. You wouldn't believe the horrible nasty things that were posted. THis was just the teen section. Yes it is too bad to delet messages and kick out some members, but when I was at that one place, some members were doing it just to tee off people or for a sick high. "The best government is no government at all", but unfortunetly "Men are not angels" (Sorry can't remember who said the first quote, but the second is from one of the U.S. founding fathers.) If Ron is getting anything near what I saw at the last place I was in, My heart goes out to him. I believe that he does only do it as a last measure. Sincerely Juju. |
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