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Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


75 posted 02-25-2004 05:32 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

removed by Cpat Hair as possibly being offensive or being considered as abuse.


[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:24 PM).]

nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


76 posted 02-25-2004 05:40 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Ron...you  are a smart aleck...you know that????

but you made me smile~~
M
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


77 posted 02-25-2004 05:45 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes



Classic Ron!!

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


78 posted 02-25-2004 05:58 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

edited by author

[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:25 PM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


79 posted 02-25-2004 06:15 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

see why I love this guy???

sheesh.

Munda
Member Elite
since 10-08-1999
Posts 3629
The Hague, The Netherlands


80 posted 02-25-2004 06:33 PM       View Profile for Munda   Email Munda   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Munda's Home Page   View IP for Munda

Ok guys... enough making fun of others. Let's keep it nice shall we?

Essorant simply means she's against banning within Passions and that doesn't mean she has no idea what goes on in this world. Of course she wants a child molester punished and of course she believes in jailtime for criminals. She's neither stupid, nor dumb. You owe her a little more credit than that!

It is hard enough to make a statement of which you know most won't agree with and having to defend your point of view against so many arguments of people who are in favour of banning as an ultimate solution.

All I've learned from this topic is that Essorant has a heart of gold and a purity I envy her for. I could use a little more of that. To me she seems a very good person, always willing to look at the positive of people, in spite of the negative. Is it realistic to want to love everybody? Perhaps not, but more of us could try and trust me, there's a high price she pays, because she will be hurt more often than most of us, since she's willing to open up which makes her very vulnerable.

I've been following this topic and haven't read anything but the same arguments. Neither have I read any solutions from Essorant, so my question would be to see some real examples why people get banned from PIP and a solution from Essorant what more can be done before banning someone, or to prevend banning completely.

Of course it may not be possible to give examples of what happened behind the scenes, but someone could always email Essorant to explain it a bit further I guess.

In the meantime let's agree you disagree and not bring all this extreme real life stuff into it. It's very hard to discuss things with one person, so I figure it must be awful to discuss it with so many of you. One of the main reasons I prefer to stay out of discussions like this.

Just my two cents folks.

Munda
Magnus
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since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


81 posted 02-25-2004 06:41 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Shy of extending to Ess an example of one
poet who has been banned, (leaving names out
of course)....Or Ess.  agreeing to put in
a short tour of the Moderator forum....I
feel we have gone about as far in this thread
as we can.  Both sides have opinions,  and
both sides stand by their opinions...I see
nothing else that we can gain from this
thread continuing.

Just my own opinion....
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


82 posted 02-25-2004 06:51 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair



so as not to be considered abusive

[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (02-25-2004 07:26 PM).]

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


83 posted 02-25-2004 07:09 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Come on, Ron, you're smart enough to know that sarcasm can be abusive too.
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


84 posted 02-25-2004 07:23 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Christopher..
you are correct. I am smart enough to know that, but did you truly find the sarcasm I used to be abusive?

obviously so... so... my humble apologies to all, and I have removed the replies above so that they do not remain to hurt or offend anyone.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


85 posted 02-25-2004 08:23 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Munda...just so you know...I sent Essorant an email with an example or two earlier today, including myself as an example. The others were without names because even behind the scenes in an email, I wouldn't think that would be right to do.

Only those who have been banned can give their examples and the moderators their reasons. Otherwise it would be gossip...and unfair to both.

Anyway...most all can be read in the archives in this forum and  other discussion ones.  Because many of the behaviors that banned them are in these forums.

It is idealistic to think that we can love everyone despite what they do...and one may mean well by it but more than likely would cause more harm than good.

I thought this would have ended by now...but I guess it can only end if Essorant asks for it to be a closed thread.

M
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


86 posted 02-26-2004 03:13 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Words can do damage just like a physical attack...and many times, words can hurt a person worse and the pain and scars last longer than any physical harm. There have been times I have cried all night because of things that have been written here.

The fact that no hatred is seen in here is because of the moderators being on their toes. Many times the entire site has been shut down completely, sometimes for days, until tempers have cooled.

Many posts have been edited or deleted before the intended "target" was able to see the words and react. The "shooter" is usually warned or counseled in email...and a lot of it is cut off at the pass.

But some people still persist.

As far as I'm concerned, people who don't follow the guidelines are usually given a heck of a lot more than three strikes, and when they continue disrupting the peace and "beating up on people", they should get banned.

We learned it in kindergarten...if you don't play nice with others, you go stand in the corner.
passing shadows
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since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


87 posted 02-26-2004 03:36 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Essorant wrote:
"Definitly
But a jail locks one more fixedly into society, not out of it.  
If we followed the idea of banning physically that would suggest simply throwing a criminal across the border to some foriegn frontier to let him fare to whatever chance befalls him there.  If every country did that, criminals would be everywhere!"

So should we have a "cell" here at Passions just for those banned people so they can still belong to society? Right.

Jail bans people from a normal society. And in jail, they have solitary confinement...so is that like a society of one?

And what about the death penalty? Tough one.

Every "establishment" has rules and laws and consequences for not abiding by those rules and laws. This site is no different than any other place. Essorant, if you intend to fight for the abolishment of banning, you have a long hard fight ahead...banning (in one form or another) is everywhere.

go into a bar and get into a fight...you get kicked out

screw up at work and the company loses a half mil...you get fired

don't pay your electric bill...they cut your power off

etc...etc...etc...
Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


88 posted 02-26-2004 07:19 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Let me tell all of the people who may get banned....you have to be patient and understand that when people are banned you must have really transgressed the rules seriously.

I have thankfully been allowed back to PIP....i was sent on a short break from the pages of this site and i can tell you it has done me good....

I have taken the punnishment and returned a more happier and rounded person for it....you have to have rules and that is what we have here....but i am sure that if you realy sat down and talked to the admins and moderators your problems will be alayed.....

I do not have to say this....but i will anyway....i was treated hashly because of the hurt that i caused and i deseved to be treated harshly..or otherwisehow would i have learned from my mistake?...i have come to realise that it is far better to show love and suport for fellow poets..not engage in futile arguments of why and where....

Be happy that you are part of a site were a real community sprit exhists....i know first hand what happens and you DO miss posting and sharing..if you think that Ron and the other staff are not fair to the poets..use me as an example and see the fairness and understanding that they showed to me...by letting me back on....they could have kept me in the wilderness for years..but they didnt....to them i am thankfull and all i want to do now is to promate harmony and love to all of my fellow poets...if people do this they will not transgress any rules....and not get banned....

Goldenrose.

''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity''

inot2B
Member Elite
since 09-18-2000
Posts 2272
Alabama


89 posted 02-26-2004 11:57 AM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

Ron, I have read this and several other discussions that has been about "Banning", and wonder how many times you have to tell people, "follow the rules".
When I enter your house (which this site is) I will follow your guidelines, no questions asked. Thank you for having the patients of Job!
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


90 posted 02-26-2004 12:12 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thank you all for your comments, especially nakedthoughts for the e-mail she sent me yesterday.
I wish to reply to you all, if that is possible.
No, I don't think we are weak,  are not all able to defend ourselves in one way or another; the site I sense is not on unstable ground where an authority's or a member's position is not able to be strongly defended.  We are all able to defend in one way or another on our own or with others; speak out "privatly" or publicly in support or in ire; edit, or delete, posts that have wrong expressions.  When people show disrespect, an offense, even hate, to me the person should not be treated like the disrespect, the offense or the hate.  His or her manners are not bad because the person is bad and deserves to go, the person is bad because his or her manners are bad and deserve to go--and those I believe are what should be "banned" in full defense of the person's presence.  People ask me what are the better means of dealing with people?  Well, I can't believe we don't already have the means.  I think all the right people and rules are already in the right place.  That's why banning seems so out of place. The whole site and it's established state are the better means for dealing with people and have transcend it so well that it looks  barbarian-tool beside a golden sceptre.  It seems now mostly incorporated in the structure for paranoia and because it is expected of internet communities.  
But no one has offered proof yet of what it avails  and how that is better than dealing with them from here,  togetherly, or personally/privatly if we may.  The person is severed away and asked to help himself on his own away from Passions; that is no help.  Fortunatly many are able to help themselves and believe in Passions still as Goldenrose.  But that doesn't change the truth that there are many who don't come back.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


91 posted 02-26-2004 12:39 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

But Ess, not coming back after being banned is their choice. It is up to them to make the amends necessary when all access has been given to them to do so.  It is  a stubbornness that keeps some from returning and the give and take it needs in a world to run smoothly.

Some are just not willing to give in at all to compromise...their choice to stay away.

And much of the leaving lately on here has not been due to banning. It's been due to some people being unhappy or finding another  place or forum that they are more comfortable in. There is nothing wrong with that. Some have to voice their unhappiness with some rules or what they seem is "unevenness" but that is all perception.

We all interpret certain rules differently and that is why there are many moderators and not one, I would assume.

It would be nice if all would get along...but is that the way it is in real life off of here? I don't think so. You will always have your dissenters.

M
passing shadows
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since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


92 posted 02-26-2004 12:52 PM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Essorant wrote:
"But no one has offered proof yet of what it avails  and how that is better than dealing with them from here,  togetherly, or personally/privatly if we may."

A person is given many chances, there are many different avenues taken before banning. Some persist in breaking the rules and going outside the guidelines. When someone is getting "out of order", a great many people from the community come running to help, to give advice, to try to calm things down, but sometimes it's to no avail.

So shall we just hand them over to you Essorant? Maybe you have some magic to make a person follow the guidelines, to fix behavior that we haven't been able to fix in numerous efforts.

It's easy for you. You can leave any time. I have been attacked here before and I could not sleep for days, didn't want to eat, was so upset that I cried all night, so angry that I wanted to find the person and confront him to his face...all because of words.

This is a home for me. I will not leave, and I will not be attacked when I come here either. If someone attacks you, you can simply leave without further interruption of your life. I don't think it would matter to you. But not all of us are so easy to turn our backs and walk away now.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


93 posted 02-26-2004 01:59 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

So, Ess, are you saying that I and the other moderators should waste our valuable time, effort, and emotions on continually [endlessly] deleting posts and replies, and sending out emails, and being the target of MUCH harassment... to avoid banning someone who's repeatedly broken the rules?

Tell you what - you convince everyone to follow the rules and we won't ban any more people.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


94 posted 02-26-2004 02:32 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


No.  
The waste in my opinion is treating it as if it is a waste or endless, and that any one is on her own dealing with people who fare amiss when it has been proven that all the authority and many members make it no waste, and no endless endeavour publicly or privately to help people when they need to be helped out--in these rarer cases, I think we should be there to help people more than ever.  
If they are doing a wrong  isn't that a strong enough reason to be?
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


95 posted 02-26-2004 03:58 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I guess what it comes down to, Ess, is that I'm not willing (nor, I imagine are most of the other moderators) to martyr myself to a cause I feel is better served by calling an end, rather than enabling a continued behaviour that I don't feel is helpful to myself or the community as a whole.
Magnus
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


96 posted 02-26-2004 04:00 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Well,  13 posts since my last comment,  and
I still see the score as 0-0.  no men out,
the lone batter still awaiting the next pitch.

Ladies,  gentlemen,  have we not beat this
horse into a thousand shreds?

Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


97 posted 02-26-2004 04:11 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

But .. but.. Barry... we haven't broken the stick we were using yet!
Besides...I can still see where the horse was..and can still stir dust from there...

a thousand pieces only?
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


98 posted 02-26-2004 04:18 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

You know what Barry? I give up trying to explain. I guess that is what the moderators do eventually, when the one about to be banned seems to lack the understanding of the rules..and the many attempts from those on here.

and as I have said before(or at least thought it)...some people like to argue for the sake of arguing and will not even budge to see both sides of the equation.
The many moderators and deputy moderators listen to all sides and then and only then are decisions made...Ess, you seem to be only listening to your own words and not even beginning to understand what others...the many others, have tried to explain to you.
Banning is only as permanent as the person being banned wants to make it....so what is so bad about that and it never has to be done publicly to  make them embarassed unless they choose to make it so.
Magnus
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


99 posted 02-26-2004 04:27 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

M.  I agree,  we have devoted much time to
a thread that has not been resolved.  

Additionally,  I have never heard one remark
from the poet (Essorant) about their choice
of joining the team in moderating for a mere
two week tour.    I am beyond attempting to
resolve this issue any further,  and I wish
that the thread would be closed,  and lets
get on with writing and sharing poetry.

This issue will never be resolved in my
opinion.  And I feel that any additional
time that I devote to it will be of little
value.

JMHO....
 
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