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Passions in Poetry

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Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


50 posted 02-23-2004 01:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Pete,

My ache at this point is that people keep on suggesting that it is not something central or integral, depended upon, but then they make it out as if all civilized behavior will cease if banning were removed from the site.  If it is what they say it is then why do they seem to treat it as if it were impossible for the site to continue if banning members were to discontinue?  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


51 posted 02-23-2004 03:15 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Depends on what you mean when you use the word central, Essorant.

Banning people is not a "dominant or controlling power or influence." On the contrary, it's extremely rare.

However, expecting everyone to take responsibility for their own words and actions, which must include bearing the known consequences of their actions, will always be "of basic importance" and "essential" to any social structure, including these forums.

What you fail to see, Essorant, in your idealistic naivety, is that enforcing responsibility does much more than simply protect the community. It is equally important to the individual. Platitudes of love and kindness are easy, and largely meaningless, if you're only willing to do what someone else wants of you. Feeding a ten-year-old cake and ice cream for dinner every night isn't a sign of love, and giving an alcoholic a drink will never be an act of kindness. Moving beyond platitudes will often, and perhaps always, require hard choices. Taking the easy path is the greatest cruelty of all.

I would honestly be much more impressed with your passion, Essorant, even though I feel it is misguided, if you weren't so quick to forsake it. You lament the abandonment of an individual, through banning them, even when the individual is in direct conflict with the needs of the community? You insist the community should never give up trying to resolve the conflict, even when there seems little hope the individual will ever listen?

Yet, what happens when no one agrees with you? What happens at the first twinge of frustration? Your answer, it appears, is to abandon the community. You seem to be very quick, Ess, to turn to exactly the same solution you accuse us of employing. Apparently, you are no wiser in reconciling irreconcilable differences than are we.  
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


52 posted 02-24-2004 03:17 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Essorant, let me give you an example....or confession maybe...

I have been here four and a half years. In that time, I have seen many types of people. I have disagreed with the administation here. I have fought battles that weren't mine. I have opened my mouth loud and I have dealt with certain things out of anger instead of being an adult.

I have hurt people. Some I meant to, most I did not.

I even hurt Ron a few times.

I could have been banned, and rightly so. But these are caring people here. I have been "taken into the private room" (through email) and we sat down and talked, I was told things that I did not know before...and eventually through patience and my understanding of things, my problems were solved.

I have been given plenty of chances here and I believe the administration is not out to hurt or punish anyone, but must establish and enforce rules to keep the peace here. This is a huge community with many different people with many different opinions and ideas about issues. And being typed words instead of face-to-face, sometimes misunderstandings are formed which lead to anger and pain...and you know what the snowball effect is, right?

There are a great many relationships here, hot issues, and things could go bad very quickly.

I myself admire the moderators and Ron for taking the time and having a keen eye to see problems before many of us are even aware that someone was about to get hurt. There are many other interventions before the last resort of banning. We just don't see the 'communications' because they are behind the scenes, but I know they are there.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


53 posted 02-24-2004 01:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't have a social government and community behind me to face the wrong I see--actually it looks like the whole government and most of the community is against me.  Therefore I am up against more force to be doubtful about and doubtful of the means I have of facing the wrong.  But I know this for sure, if somehow I was able to ban the whole government and community that does and supports the wrong I see, though it is obvious it would ban me for for seeing me do a wrong, I would never do such a thing, even though the wrong continues.
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


54 posted 02-24-2004 01:30 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Essorant- The wisest man I ever knew told me one time that I could very easily bring down the building by beating my head against the wall... it would take forever, and unless I had MAJOR amounts of help, I would get a headache LONG before I accomplished the mission. Then he told me the easiest way to effect change in m the world was to do so from the INSIDE.
So, what is he saying???
You have obviously found out that you are not going to change anyone's mind by beating your head against the walls... HOWEVER, if you were to step off the high ground for a very brief 2 weeks and step inside the building to have a look around, then you would be able to see what is truly going on and how you could best begin to make those changes... and then people would be more apt to listen to you because they know you understand what happens on the inside. I would suggest that you pick something like Prose, if you don't have a great amount of free time. I started there and had ONE post that needed looking at in my two weeks.
This suggestion has been made to you more than once by more than one person. And you are very much welcome to join us, and we would freely ask again that you join us. The only way for the moderators to do their job properly is to have members with differing views making the decisions.
And I respectfully suggest that, since you have been politely asked and sincerely invited more than once to see what being a moderator is truly about so you can help to start the changes that you feel need to be made, if you choose not to, that is your decision, and we will all stand by it, and will respect you for making that decision for yourself... however, if that is your decision then I, personally, don't want to hear another word from you about how the moderators are doing anything that you don't like, as you have lost the priveledge and the integrity for anyone to take you seriously.
That is just MY opinion, though, and may not reflect the thoughts of the management of this site.

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur
built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


55 posted 02-24-2004 09:32 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, it seems the scroll has shut down:
http://scroll.org/

Ess,

Maybe start your own site?

PS You know being banned from a website really ain't that bad. I've been banned from one. It can be a wake up call.  
LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 01-08-2000
Posts 5015


56 posted 02-25-2004 12:37 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"I don't have a social government and community behind me to face the wrong I see"

So I guess if you don't have an army behind you, you're going to take off... I don't want to be mean or harsh but, as Ron said, I'd admire you a bit more if you stuck by what you believed instead of taking off when you realized you were the minority.

Just know this about life in general: just because you go against the grain doesn't mean you're wrong. It doesn't mean you're right either, but it doesn't mean that being against the grain should be your main purpose for fleeing. If you change your opinion baised on what you've seen/read, then fine. If you leave just because we disagree, then you have a lot to learn...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


57 posted 02-25-2004 02:49 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ringo

Thank you.
But I have to gently decline.

I don't have any complaint towards the moderators at all; only about the conclusion of banning people.
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


58 posted 02-25-2004 03:46 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

Essorant, let's say for example that we have a husband, wife, and mistress all posting here...the husband wants to stay with the wife, but the mistress has other plans...

now, the mistress is making threats and writing upsetting poetry and other people get involved...and things get out of hand.

so, after all other measures to stop the upsetting posts and arguements that are getting way out of hand and may even lead to harm to one of the parties involved...what should be the next step?

Are you even aware of what kind of people we have had and still have at this place? Some are timebombs waiting to explode...do you know that emails fly all over the place and vicious rumors get spread? Do you think we should continue to put up with hatred towards one another, towards our friends, towards the USA, or whatever the issue may be that is causing such an uproar?

Do you think you would be very good in riot prevention and crowd control. Do you think you would probably just stand back and let people kill each other?

Every society has rules...laws. The are consequences for breaking those laws. If someone robbed your house, would you want them to be free to do it to someone else or would you want them to go to jail, for a little while, to get some rehabilitation, maybe have some time to think about what they did and how they hurt you and your family... or just to keep them from doing it again...you'd expect jail time, right? Or no?
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


59 posted 02-25-2004 03:52 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

that may be an extreme example, but out of all the years the site has been around and almost 8000 members, how many do you think have actually been banned? or even just suspended temporarily?

not many

We have a great neighborhood here...I appreciate the efforts to keep it clean and "crime-free". Don't you, Ess?

nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


60 posted 02-25-2004 06:05 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

the greatest opinions to listen to may be those of some banned members who have returned...if they thought it a terrible community or  that it was so unfair..why then  would they CHOOSE to return, after either apologizing or explaining their reasonings and coming to some type of compromise...in private with Ron/ and or the moderators. There are  a few of us...whether banned or self-banned(myself included, once)who have returned.

M
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


61 posted 02-25-2004 09:21 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

here is a PERFECT example that may well shoot down any theory you had/have on banning members and second chances...how this site works, and how we welcome back with open arms!

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum3/HTML/003017.html

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


62 posted 02-25-2004 10:32 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is wonderful to see Goldenrose is back.  

I Hope good lessons continue to be learnt on both sides.


  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


63 posted 02-25-2004 10:38 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Was banning really the virtue?
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


64 posted 02-25-2004 10:46 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

I think you like arguing for arguing's sake..and it seems you are the one who hasn't learned a lesson at all from   any of this

why not post some poems...or go into CA and voice your opinions and give this one a rest...obviously you haven't gained what those of us have, who have been through the complete process and wish to continue to particpate here.

I only put my one cent in to show you that  those who have been banned or left, many times return when they are ready to adjust to the site and its rules.

M...some people must have "the last word", I suppose...and it won't be me. *s


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


65 posted 02-25-2004 11:01 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I am terrible at arguing so it's not exactly my pleasure.
I came in here to voice at something that I think has been a wrong in the past and shall be a wrong in the future if continued.  People learn from wrongs certainly but it doesn't make the wrongs right.

I promise not to continue if you don't wish me too.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-25-2004 12:12 PM).]

Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


66 posted 02-25-2004 11:06 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

I guess we all have had the virtue of patience with you. Personally, I tend to think you like what you are doing....

Maybe you need to listen a little better, it's all been said and frankly any continuation from any one would most likely be pointless....in other words you are beating a dead horse....let it go...if you don’t have the answer by now, 10 to 1 says you never will find it....

Maybe a lesson can be learned for you.

However, I am doubtful at this point…

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


67 posted 02-25-2004 11:17 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I am too far behind with other points brought up to deal with being treated like that, Greeneyes.  
I never treated you as if you are not learning anything, and I certainly I hope I never will.
Magnus
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


68 posted 02-25-2004 11:25 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

I have to agree....both sides continue to
reemphasize the same points,  I see litle
headway,  few concessions.  

Why don't we just move forward in our primary
reason for being here.  It appears to me that
the issue will never come to a mutually
agreeable resolutiion.  That is my vote!!
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


69 posted 02-25-2004 11:25 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That is a good point, Magnus.
I'm sorry for getting in a bad mood.  
I hope to let this rest for a while and look back on some peoples points and think on things.

Thanks for expressing your opinions.  Let this be a close for now.

take care,

Essorant
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


70 posted 02-25-2004 12:45 PM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

sorry all...I don't mean to keep this going here but I would like answers to my post up there in slot #58

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


71 posted 02-25-2004 03:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Passingshadows  

It has been emphasized that the cases that lead to someone being banned are very rare and deserve sometimes more seperate, sometimes more joint communication and extra time.
I think if members and moderators are willing to take all the beginning steps in these it is necessary to take them all the way, none giving up on other.  If some are hanging onto something at Passions that is keeping them from "exploding" isn't that more of a reason why not to ban them?  And if they explode isn't it safer in words rather than in some other way, perhaps very physically?  I don't see hate being tolerated here, I don't hate people that hate either, or believe they ought to be removed from society.  The hate needs to be removed, not the people.  And only people may remove hate.  It is not going to be removed by removing people.  

"Are you even aware of what kind of people we have had and still have at this place?

Humankind, that is the kind!              


"Every society has rules...laws. The are consequences for breaking those laws. If someone robbed your house, would you want them to be free to do it to someone else or would you want them to go to jail, for a little while, to get some rehabilitation, maybe have some time to think about what they did and how they hurt you and your family... or just to keep them from doing it again...you'd expect jail time, right? Or no?"

Definitly
But a jail locks one more fixedly into society, not out of it.  
If we followed the idea of banning physically that would suggest simply throwing a criminal across the border to some foriegn frontier to let him fare to whatever chance befalls him there.  If every country did that, criminals would be everywhere!

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-25-2004 04:40 PM).]

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


72 posted 02-25-2004 03:30 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Ess, I don't know of a country [but I could be wrong] that some sort of criminal element doesn't exist.  Were that not true, there would indeed be a Utopia and I for one would get a one-way ticket.  I know I've often wanted to go to Brigadoon, but I don't like long naps.

I truly believe you want your cake, the ability to eat it, and with ice cream.  I certainly applaud your wanting to make a just and true society that everyone stays, no matter what, but until you can show us, actually lay out a plan that can be adhered to by all members, I simply don't see what objective you are trying to gain by arguing against something that is apparently working for the majority of members at Passions.

It's been stated a few times above: sign up for a rotation in the Deputy Moderators Forum, and see for yourself the steps taken to ensure that we are not acting off the cuff, but take true concern with every questionable post, or poet, who fails to adhere to the guidelines they agreed to follow when first applying for membership, just as you did.

But did you read the guidelines when you clicked the button?  I think, probably not.  Why do I think that?  Because if you truly felt then as you feel now, this would have been "too rigid" a structure for you to want to be a part of, and I seriously believe you would have considered that before clicking "yes".
2writeis2be
Junior Member
since 01-11-2004
Posts 42
Live in London, but from TX


73 posted 02-25-2004 04:01 PM       View Profile for 2writeis2be   Email 2writeis2be   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 2writeis2be

I don't agree w/the banning that goes on in certain cases. Seems to incorporate a bit too much sensitivity to be sensible. I know somebody who was banned from here awhile back, and don't think the reasons were just. All he was doing was writing about a topic in a discussion forum--he chose a topic for people to respond to, just to see what their view was. Then, immediately he was jumped on by the moderators and "close knit" members for merely stating his view on something--without may I add naming any one individual, cursing, etc. So basically he was banned for using his freedom of speech and having a mere discussion about something some didn't agree with. Shame that everyone takes everything so personally--because it normally is just making a mountain out of a molehill. Ruins the point of a "discussion forum," don't you think?
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


74 posted 02-25-2004 04:50 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

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