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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


25 posted 02-17-2004 04:20 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
It is only that last resort of omitting members as an ultimate consequence or conclusion that I am questioning


It IS the last resort, Ess.  As Severn indicated, how would you establish a place of respect and tolerance and keep everyone happy if you were running Passions?  Because we all stand to learn something new, every day, and if you have a solution, we'd like to know of it.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


26 posted 02-17-2004 05:53 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hello, my name is Lee J. and I've been posting here for a few months at Passions.  This web site to me is enjoyable due to the professionalism of it's members.  Once a few months ago, I was upset and wrote a poem which had the word poop in it...but was a more descriptive word.  I was reminded of the fact that there are children reading these poems and told that the poem was redirected to another forum.  I was ashamed at my behavior as I dont' dare want to hurt children in any way.  

Now...as you all may know, my poems are long and frankly that is me...who I am and how I write.  But there is one gal (whom I hold no grude towards that constantly left messages about how long my poems were and they were hard for her to read.  The comments as such continued from her until I came to the conclusion...OK, then don't read them????  And I don't mean that in an angry way.  Then I was told that maybe I should space my sentences, by another, and that way, perhaps more people would read and comment.  Now I thank you very much for those comments, but after a while...they hurt my heart.  I mean literally hurt.  Once it was suggested to me that I go to another forum here where the action was not. (smiles) and that hurt as well?  I've read many poems in here that had more sexual content in them then the poop word I wrote and became very upset, especially after being told that children read our poems??????  And I'm not kidding or making up stories...I've read some very heavy sexual content along with swear words that I've never used in my writing????

Today I posted a poem in the forum and it was immediately moved to the discussion forum.  I asked why and I was told that they (the person who moved the poem) didn't believe it was a poem and it would do better in another forum.  I was shocked and hurt...and still would like to know why.  Now as far as length...I've also read poems by others which are very long winded as mine and not one negative comment was made.  

As far as banning people from this site...it must be difficult to decide as a monitor/leader...but what is fair is fair when others suffer for the misbehavior of others.  As for myself...I have posted in several other sites and there is always trouble, people leaving very degrading hurtful comments, under the names of the other poets even?????  I have been that target myself and it gets to the point where you say to yourself...this isn't nice or fun anymore. So...I commend all of you who do monitor as it must be a very hard task at times...and also, people have to understand there are consequences for their hurtful actions in lashing out at others...so by banning, yes it probably does hurt everyone to do so...but perhaps in the end, that person who was banned for a time, will learn a very difficult lesson.  And after reading all of you I am certain...if someone is banned and writes to the forum, with an apology and promise to try and do better, I don't believe there is a mean bone in any of your bodies that would say no, to another chance.  

I will though say honestly...when my poems where commented on as I explained above...I was very hurt and felt like for some reason some were attacking me.  

Oft times I'm misunderstood as I'm open and friendly, but not to the point that I would ever consider hurting someone elses feelings.  Or attacking them unless they back me up against a wall.  

Point being, I simply wanted to add my two cents into this for what it's worth.  In the same, again, allow me to reinforce, that I'm not a person who holds a grudge...but do like to talk about things, get them out in the open so I can understand the other person's point of view...and then express mine.  Then wal la...its history, and I'll extend my hand in friendship hoping the other person will do the same.  But...I'm finding, that the older I become, the less tolerant I am...and at the same time...am learning something here from everyone of you and I like that very much.  

I apologize to everyone if my posts in the past have been taken the wrong way.  When I write it is usually in a spiritual sense, of wonderful and positive experiences with my faith and with people.  If I've offended anyone, then please tell me...don't cast me off to the side telling me that my poetry belongs in another forum...and when one is repremanded about bad language or sexual content in poetry that children read...then by Gosh, that rule should apply to everyone.

So, there you have it...my comment, beliefs and no bad intent meant...just airing and adding my point of views and I'm always open to learn.  
Thank you for taking the time to read and
My best to all of you
Lee J.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


27 posted 02-17-2004 06:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"You say 'don't omit the member' - how exactly would you have the system so the behaviour is 'punished', but the member stays? How would you ensure that the bad behaviour, that has been demonstrated by that member in a consistent, destructive pattern, goes?"

Severn
If someone speaks out wrongly or offensively I think we need to speak out rightly and defensivly to that person, sometimes more privately, sometimes more publicly to show him that he is wronging and offending, by  breaking a rule.  The person needs to know that we are offended and that we will defend his own presence no matter what.  If people in anyway seek to offend him even indirectly, that will probably make him more offensive and less willing to listen. Therefore we have to defend him even though he will offend us.  After one smacks a wild sword against a secure shield held up by many for an age or two eventually the sword shall break and the person will know right there the shield is his as well.   But the more hands that are taken away from the sheild to put a sword out the less secure is the sheild and more endangered people are of being victims to a sword.
Magnus
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


28 posted 02-17-2004 08:52 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

My life,  on most days is extremely filled
with the needs of my family.  I spent many
hours tending to their needs.  So,  if I
take time away to comment here,  I assure
you that my comments are not to be watered
down.  Nor will they be.

These threads seem to go on and on and on
with comments and more comments....saying
over and over the same basic things, on
both sides.....so far....I don't see either
side budging....

Personally,  I am on the moderator/establishment side.  

Why?

The why is because I have been in those trenches
that they are in,  I have been in many discussions
that have taken place over hours, sometimes
days to come to what would be an agreeable
solution that would not be biased and yet
would protect the readership of PIP as well.

People keep saying....  COME IN,  join the
moderators,  take a turn in the trench and
make the decisions that have to be made,
that are made on a voluntary basis,  by
people like everyone else,  with lives of
their own,  with kids that they too have to
tend to.    But,  they take the time,  they
toil over the decisions with a great deal of
empathy as well as wisdom and without getting
into a hurry or making a decision that is not
agreeable to all.  It goes beyond a reasonable
doubt here at PiP.  

A lot of hard work is put into the daily
runnings of a website that is HUGE,  has
thousands of members.  And to labor over
something that concerns how many individuals?
What,  3, 6?....For so many
hours,  when proper decisions have been made
fairly,  when all other avenues have been
looked at and exhausted by PEOPLE who care?

I'll say it again....COME IN,  take a turn
at moderating....then perhaps your thoughts
might change somewhat.  You might see why
a group of a dozen or so work so hard to
protect the thousands.    

There ya have it,  my two cents...

And....LeeJ,  thank you for your input as well.  
Your input is as valuable as any other person's
input is....
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


29 posted 02-18-2004 12:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I also know the members do a great heap to keep the site up as well.  Why don't you consider emphasizing that beside the moderators?  Even some members I know of that were banned showed much more than what they got banned for.  Some others that got banned early, never got to show much more than what they got banned for; most of them finally probably go away with more spite than insight.
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


30 posted 02-18-2004 04:36 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Thank you for your reply Ess, I appreciate it.

Firstly, might I suggest to you that this:

'If someone speaks out wrongly or offensively I think we need to speak out rightly and defensivly to that person, sometimes more privately, sometimes more publicly to show him that he is wronging and offending, by  breaking a rule'

already happens? Members aren't banned willy nilly lol. A member doesn't act up and then get sent to a permanent naughty bin with little or no consultation - both private and public. Members are often addressed privately (to repeat others - sign up for deputy moderating and have a look how it all works. It isn't perfect, but a lot of hard work gets put in to looking after this place, Ess). You might also notice that Ron devotes a lot of time in writing long, considered replies in threads where all hell has broken loose. So do others. Members and moderators alike.

You are very right in pointing out that members play an important part in maintaining passions. And you know what? Most moderators here see themselves as members first, then as moderators. After all, it's usually out of love for passions that members volunteer to take a more active role in the general housekeeping.

Your metaphor:

'The person needs to know that we are offended and that we will defend his own presence no matter what'

of the sword and shield is a little more challenging to me. It raises issues of time, energy and responsibility. Firstly, moderators (and members) have limited time here, Essy. Most come to relax, contribute and to feel like part of a family. If there is a member that we have to consistently manage it takes a LOT of time and energy. Now, like someone else pointed out there is a lot we don't see happening that goes on behind the scenes. Some of the members who have found themselves banned have sent abusive emails, have stalked people etc. There must come a point where the question is asked - is this worth the time and energy it takes to be the shield against this person's sword? Is it fair to demand this much from our moderators, and our members?

Which brings me to responsibility. It seems to me that your suggestion removes the responsibility for the offender and that offender's actions. Do you not believe that as adults, members need to take responsibility for the way they conduct themselves in an internet community where interation is limited to words and screens? Just as we need to take responsibility for the way we behave around others in our face to face lives?

Is it our responsibility, Ess, that a banned member goes away with more spite than insight? Has that member not chosen to conduct themselves in a consistently inappropriate manner, and despite the efforts of the moderating team (and members), not curbed that behaviour?

Finally, I have an insight myself for you. I know you are a loving person, Ess. I know you like to believe the best about people. I've seen that emerge in so many of your posts. That's a good thing in today's world, and I respect, and care for you, for it. However, it does have its limitations. At the moment it seems that your view is one current in modern society - that of the offender as the victim. Unfortunately, to me at least, this view has been grossly exaggerated, and while I agree with rehabilitation and second chances, to an extent, I also believe in responsibility and punishment.

I also believe that the time and energy of the people here needs to be respected, and considered.

This is why I myself believe that banning is sometimes a very appropriate action - please also remember, it's not a common action (thankfully).

Have some hugs eh?

K
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


31 posted 02-18-2004 06:11 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Ess- I just went back and read this entire thread again, and it seems to me that the only response that you seem to have (boiling everything down to its basic core) is taht we need to just keep editing/deleting offending posts, and asking the offenders to stop without having any real consequenses. That is the absolute same thing as not having ANY consequenses at all... and is not an effective way of running ANYTHING.

If you have a child that is swearing and breaking the rules and being disrespectful, and you do nothing but ask the child to stop, and there is no reason for the child to do so, then they wont. Plain and simple. The child realizes that the rules are a total joke and that they are able to do as they wish, and no one is going to stop them. In order for the authority figures in ANY situation (in this case the Admin, Moderators and DM's... and, of course, Ron) they need to have some way of enforcing the rules because without enforcement, there is no regulation.

Consider PIP as you would a schoolroom. A student screws up, and the teacher tells the student stop. The student continues, and the teacher removes the student from the situation. The student continues, and they are suspended. Further actions by the student leads to an eventualy expultion. HOWEVER... if the offense is severe enough, then the child is suspended/expelled immediately because it is for the greater benefit of the students that remain.

I would like to follow up with Severn's question and ask how you feel this can be more effectively achieved. And, as Severn said, this is a serious question and not the typical "yeah, can you do better" response. If there is a better way of ensuring that the members here can be the happiest and least offended, then I would be willing to jump on that bandwagon and ask for the chages to be considered.

I would also once again whole heartedly invite you to spend a mere 2 weeks as a moderator. With the amount of time and energy you have dedicated to this issue, you could have helped to make the decisions that could popssibly prevent some of the things you are writing against in this thread.
Anyhow, I have yapped long enough.

But now the animal is in pain...
And now it's starting to rain...
But I'm still the same.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


32 posted 02-19-2004 08:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Severn,

All you need to do is put "ever" after your own name and the truth becomes spelt out very cleary:

SevernEver

SeverNever

SevernEver will be part of Passions.
SeverNever a part of Passions.  

These kind of tokens I may never overlook.
Otherwise you might've succeeded in changing my mind!  

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


33 posted 02-19-2004 09:49 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn



shaking head at Essy....

that's, um, an interesting way to look at things? (whisper...I am inclined to take looooong breaks you know)

K

Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


34 posted 02-20-2004 10:37 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

(smiling) do ever and never truly exist Ess?

you obviously are much more willing to give of yourself and do so with a patience which is beyond my own... and we, would at this point agree to disagree on the point.

I am reminded of how a dike if allowed to leak will fail, but for the finger of a young person who stood all night to hold the waters... he stopped an erosion... by stopping something we all need to live from doing damage...

Jamie
Member Elite
since 06-26-2000
Posts 3219
Blue Heaven


35 posted 02-21-2004 09:46 AM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

A sword of equal durability to a shield will not fail, nor will the shield, so it falls to the bearers as to which will prevail.

A better analogy might be that of the squeaking wheel getting the grease. (although I am sure there have been times when the mechanic simply replaced the entire axle )


J

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.
byron

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


36 posted 02-21-2004 07:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't think the sword borne may ever go as long as a shield without cutting something or someone, Jaime.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


37 posted 02-21-2004 08:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

As low as one's words or deeds may get his or her presence should never be treated as low.  One's presense should always be defended.  For that was never a wrong.  And you will never convince me therefore that it was right to make someone no longer present.  
There are many consequences.  But banning aborts them all.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


38 posted 02-21-2004 08:52 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Essorant,

You're missing something. What about the agency and responsibility of the members?

What about what they want?

Did you ever think that some people just want to be banned?


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


39 posted 02-22-2004 11:22 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Brad,

I'm sure indeed sometimes it is the will of some to actually be banned, and that is why they may make their trouble.  But that trouble-making might not come about if they didn't have being banned as a point to play upon in the first place.
Just something to think upon.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


40 posted 02-22-2004 05:17 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Have you ever spent time at a completely open forum?

That's were I, and many of us, started this internet thing.
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


41 posted 02-22-2004 09:14 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

http://www.basstabarchive.com/discussion

This is the link to a discussion group that has no one to enforce any rules. It used to be a place where people from all over the world would stop in and discuss music, the industry, and muical equipment, as well as the flavor of the week, and favorite artists. There were even a few "famous" musicians that stopped by.
Essorant, I invite you to take 30 seconds of your time right now to peruse the site when the owner lost control, and refused to take any action against anyone who infringed upon his site... then come back and honestly tell us that banning members who truly deserve it is a bad thing.

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur
built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 01-08-2000
Posts 5015


42 posted 02-22-2004 11:50 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

A wonderful example, Ringo...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


43 posted 02-23-2004 01:21 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

ouch...

K
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


44 posted 02-23-2004 02:43 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


45 posted 02-23-2004 02:48 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If banning is the action that all or even most control revolves around then count me no more part of this site.  
It is the only thing I don't support of Passions.  Yet I put it to the side in my mind because I didn't think it was a central point.  If it is central though it is very disappointing to hear.  I don't wish to be part of it.
passing shadows
Member Empyrean
since 08-26-99
Posts 46297
displaced


46 posted 02-23-2004 04:35 AM       View Profile for passing shadows   Email passing shadows   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for passing shadows

you have not heard a word that has been said here, that's obvious

unless you see what goes on behind the scenes, then you don't really know, do you? Banning is not a central point and is not the first way to deal with trouble. You seem to be making this a central point though.

People have tried to explain this issue to you Essorant, but you seem to be stuck like a broken record.

I'm sorry to see you go away not understanding what has been told to you here, but if it's what you choose, then so be it
Greeneyes
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


47 posted 02-23-2004 07:50 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

after everything said--viewpoints on the whys--you're leaving? thats classic--

~~**~~
There are moments when speech
is but a mouth pressed lightly and
humbly against the angel's hands.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


48 posted 02-23-2004 12:59 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

After Brad's question/suggestion of a completly "open" community and Ringo's
example of a community whose control has completly been lost and two other members' agreement on that point, as a response to not banning people, expressing what they seem to feel is an opposite of banning people,that the result is abandoning all control, then banning people is being is there suggested as the central control; that was their treatment, and that is what prompted my above response.  I don't believe that is what it is but then again I am not "behind the scenes"  I go by what people are saying.
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


49 posted 02-23-2004 01:20 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Essy, if you "go by what people are saying" then listen to what they are saying in this thread too.
 
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