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Passions in Poetry

Call off the dogs...

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Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


0 posted 01-30-2004 11:14 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim


Hey, why don't ya all come over and prove how smart and witty you are against me for a while.
I don't claim to be an accomplished poet and ain't certainly as smart as most, so have at me.

One interesting characteristic I have seen when Ron exercises his position and chastizes someone, (rightly or wrongly) then we enter a feeding frenzy to join the fun.  Then we all end up being cutesy to prove how "correct" we are.

And yep, don't attack the person who who owns the printing press and buys ink by the barrel.

First, the initial post by a distinguished member of the board was not a harsh critique.  I would personally characterize as a rather innocuous cheap shot.  I was unable to discern how it was a critique offered to assist someone in bettering their poetry.  But then again, it is all a matter of perception and one should not attempt to delve into the minds of others.

It does not take a college graduate to read someone's poetry and figure where they are coming from and what they are seeking as far as input.

And it certainly is not hard to attack en masse.

I won't even talk about the two rather cheap shots taken in other posts which I read as personal attacks which apparently were felt to be warranted by Ron letting the gates open for barrel shooting.

I find it extremely hard to buy Ron's statement that someone was not making a personal attack in her response.  I can't read the post any other way.
I cannot see how any person could read it any other way.  Again, it is a matter of perception.

Were there severe overreactions by the those now suffering the consequences?  yep, to the point of being childish.

Is the other side without fault, not hardly.  Intellect, arrogance and condescending attitudes unfortunately have a tendency to interchange.  The behavior on both sides is pretty poor if you ask me, but then again, one side is clearly the victor.

I did find interesting the comment about someone coming the rescue of someone, when it is a reaction many who have joined the thread have utilized or experienced.

Opeth, I have a new found respect for you.  You are the one person involved I believe acted honorably.

As you might take it, I had a rather trying day dealing with what I take as serious matters and thought I would come home to relieve tension by reading a little poetry and maybe even penning a word or two.  

Instead, I see we are still shooting fish in the barrel.  Give em a break and show me what a terrible person I am and I will readily agree how witty and charming you all are.

Please don't take this as supporting the actions of the original poster, I don't read his poetry nor have I have ever had any contact with him.  I just see there is another side to most issues and am not particularly impressed by either side.


A Romantic Heart
Member Ascendant
since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


1 posted 01-30-2004 11:39 PM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

I have an imagination....but I am not imaginging "Why people are leaveing PIP"...and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out....I wonder why everyone is at a loss as to the reason why?

I guess love is blind and maybe friendship too!...and at least we do have admittance about the cliques..one thing to identify the problem..next to fix it...

Maybe I should post a NEW suggestion in the suggestion area...instead of "a Family of friends" it should be families....and circles of friends....instead of circle of friends....more truthful and fitting.

I agree ....that is just my opinion, which I am free to it.
RSWells
Member Elite
since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


2 posted 01-30-2004 11:41 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

Hehehe.....I'm not familiar with your writings here but your member date suggests you've seen alot of changes in the growth on PIPS. It also entitles you to an opinion. I'll agree that on several posts (in areas designated for such no less) there has been untoward behaviour from both responents and originators of the posts.

Interestingly, while most seem to be upset at the editing of volunteer moderators in squelching what must have been writings important to the posters, the concerns themselves are not deleted.

Ron is articulate and capable of defending himself when he is personally attacked (which he was in one post) Those who pile on afterwards however do little more but embarrass themselves in an unnecessary rush to defend him.

It would be best if these things were handled in E-mails and perhaps a seperate room could be developed where Ron, the offending moderator and the member who felt an offense could hash things out, away from public view. A sort of appeals process.

I understand your disgust at the posts. Sorry I wasn't here for a fight (be glad I wasn't I'm awesome)
A Romantic Heart
Member Ascendant
since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


3 posted 01-31-2004 12:49 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,(what we have here is a failure to communicate)LOL
Standing back, refraining from posting and allowing time for observations of replies...

It is a timely manner to post my observations..first of all I must say in defense for myself,(only because I feel I have been attacked) that I have been a five year member to PIP as well.

During these five years, not once have I crtiqued or said any harsh words to another person, personally I am not God and I feel I have no right to judge others, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Degree or not...it all comes down to the matter of the heart...

My heart has always been full of love for others, no need to defend myself, for my poetry, replies and heart speaks for itself. the proof is in the pudding.My pudding taste sweet...not sour...

Yes I am a passionate and very caring, sensitive person, so I accept it as an honor it you want to label me a defender of people..etc.

Along with passion comes belief and when I feel something is unjust, not right,I will take a stand, even till death to try and attain justice, fairness, etc.

Most of the time thoughout my five years at PIP, I have not "made waves", remained quiet. In my first Alley post, maybe I should have stated that my statement was due to a five year "observation" not just "assuming".

Really there were no assumptions, I have received several emails from certain people who I respected and chose not to name their name.

The critique given by servn was not the complete reason for my post. I can take critisim, "loving" critisim with a grain of salt. As I have done before and just ignored it. Continueing to ignore a problem does not make it go away. If I am correct, out of the five years of PIP, this was the first critique I had received from servn.

  My critique was flagged, but there is a space allowed for me as the poet to choose the kind of critique I accept. That is MY right as a member. My statement was "be gentle my heart breaks like glass", and if you don't have anything nice to say...then don't say ot at all."....How much more blunt did I have to put it? maybe I should say "no harsh or rude critiques" just friendly replies....and yes that is my preference then so be it that is my right to accept critisim or not.I just don't like someone who doesn't even know me to drop in out of the blue and start crtique on me especially if I didn't ask for it in the first place..maybe the critical analysis 2 forum was becoming to dull...not exciting enough.

If I wanted to be critiqued, I would post in the forum that is specifically made for this. If anyone knew me well enough, they do know I have been through alot in my life and I have overcame many obstacles, I am a strong woman, and I do respect others to not personally attack them and respect their wishes when it comes to critique preference.

The major point of my first post in the Alley was from observation of seeing new poets post ( over a five year period) and see them sometimes get a critical reply and then you never see them post ever again...

Out of concern and love....I wanted to reach out and stop this from occuring to anyone else....

I posted to be true, not to sit back and everything is pretend or a bed of roses, because life is not. I acknowledge this the same as everyone else. I feel the same.

Personally I am not one for argueing, maybe good discussion. Discussion brings forth truth and honesty..realness. To make or break relationships...discussion is good if communicated in the right cival way.

Now I have noticed the cliques that is true, this is just my opinion, but it sometimes is this: you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours mentality. (Possibly having nothing to do with the poetry itself, but the person posting).

Secondly...I do nothing for show, everything I do comes from my heart, and if my heart is on trial, it alone proves my case.

Thirdly: there is a difference between critique in the real world and on the net. Critisim from a friend, a teacher, co-worker is usually one-on-one and a relationship has been established before critisim is made. With the net,millions of viewers see it...so when you are critized on PIP it is not just between two people.
With that in mind, knowing we are in front of others, it IS actually like a show, a reality show, with lots of characters. I am a very humble and modest person..never have I been egotistical..never will!

Fourth: Phil is doing what his heart feels, after all he is just like each of you..(protecting your friends and loved ones) just as you feel to post because of friendship, etc. yes some of his intent may have been in my defense, after all he is only human..a man in love...maybe he had observed and wanted to make a statement for what he believes in. We all have the human spirit to stand for what we believe in.All his comments etc. was his choosing...whatever his reason, I support his stand. on issues..but not personal attacks.(under no circumstance is personal attacks from anyone or to anyone justified)about Ron...or anyone!

To sum it up, Yes I felt violated to a degree AFTER reading Svrns words in her post to my alley post. 1. Because she named me personally, 2. She said things about me without knowing me as a person.
In my alley post, I had used the figure of speech "English Professor" this was not intented for a certain person..or persons..or anyone with an English degree.Honestly I had no idea of who had what? I applaud anyone with such accomplishment!

Being at PIP has been good and bad, it has ups and downs. Just like life itself, my purpose in life as a human being is love and give love and peace, but sometimes it is that love, that passion that is the driving force behind making changes for the betterment of society or for personal reasons.
  This is just all  my two-cents worth and you can take it or leave it.

Lovingly I feel I will post my poems and I know I am not the greatest or near it. If you like it, and it makes you feel something inside your heart, if it stirs you, moves you...good.If you don't, then don't reply. there is enough negativity in the world, our lives without adding more.

I could care less what people think or say...and if someone didn't make me feel violated, then I would not feel I need to put this post in defense of my personality.
It is my life, my heart, and I am the one living it. They don't live my life, for me nor do they walk in my shoes.
As for PIP, I just wanted to make a note that I will not be posting poetry for sometime, not due to the current situations. I had decided this about a month ago when starting a book..or books that I am writing to be published.I am going to focus, putting all my heart and effort into the books. I agree about getting off the net and living a life..a real life...balance of both is the key.
  In closing, I wish you love, peace, and fairness, A heart that is filled with love is better to share than one that is not...share love, kindness, not negativity. Love one another as you would love yourselves--------Peace!

Ps.One final note...do I believe apologies should be stated...yes! all the way around....on both sides of the fence!



Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


4 posted 01-31-2004 12:56 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Take care Romantic Heart.  Nicely expressed.
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


5 posted 01-31-2004 01:10 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Once again I'm in the position of not really wanting to reply, but finding myself having to.

Hasn't this been blown way out of proportion? That's my initial thought, but hey.

Tim - I know your stance on the academic very well. I can see how all this might upset you. However, I think your perception on quite a few of the issues is slightly skewed. I'm not going to say how right now - I'd rather avoid yet another argument. So, I'm acknowledging what you say.

You won't actually believe this but I detest arguing. That doesn't make me afraid to speak my mind though, knowing what might come as a result. Such as this post.

ARH - look hon, let me tell you AGAIN. Please. I didn't 'name' you I responded to what you and Phil had said in your initial post. I just can't understand how this isn't clear? You spoke, Phil spoke - I responded to what both of you had said and to make what I said clear I used your names so you'd know I was talking to you. Ok?

Be well.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


6 posted 01-31-2004 02:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm afraid I don't understand the reason for this thread at all. For you, Tim, to say you only wanted to pop over to PIP and relieve tension by reading some poetry and relaxing - and then you initiate a thread with Hey, why don't ya all come over and prove how smart and witty you are against me for a while. - seems a little strange to me.

If Ron threw up his hands tomorrow and closed this site I wouldn't be surprised a bit...
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


7 posted 01-31-2004 02:41 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim,

You're bending over backwards to be vague and impartial.

But isn't that just another example of the problem?

As far as I can tell, it comes down to one big misunderstanding. As much as I'd love to get into a discussion on the value of a critique, that doesn't seem to have been the issue.

Some of us like A Romantic Heart believes that sincerity of feeling (from the heart) is the most important thing (and perhaps, though I don't know if she'd agree with this, the only important thing). With this idea, it becomes very difficult to accept or to see the criticism of poetry as justifiable.

Others, like myself, don't share that opinion.

Yet, isn't it fair to say that no one here wants to offend other people? Sure, there are 'cheap shots', sarcastic remarks, and whatnot. Sure, there are mistakes made. I make'm all the time. But really does anybody want to scare people away from PiP (In CA we've scared people off by saying things like, "Hey, can you clean up the grammar?")?  

Does any respond to, "I was offended by that."

with, "Yeah, that's how I wanted you to feel."

I don't think most people would do that anyway.

But instead we get vague pronouncements on critiques, off the cuff remarks on English majors, further remarks on the use of personal names and on and on and everybody's being offended.

And yet, none of it, when you think about it was intended.

I honestly believe that if things had been a little more transparent around here, this wouldn't have happened.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 01-31-2004 06:34 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

You know, I just don't see it. I do see her getting heated because she thought you were attacking her, but even in this thread, doesn't she make it clear that she intended no personal attack?

So, you say you intended no personal attack.

She says she intended no personal attack.

What else, really, can be done?

Rightly or wrongly, she was a little upset. Haven't we all been there?
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


9 posted 01-31-2004 06:38 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

It seems strange Phil, after reading every response on this and other threads that while everyone else is now trying to calm things down, you are still insisting on the word "blame" by naming Severn again.

She has made known to ARH that she has only responded to what you both were saying about her, which was/is a personal attack and one against the guidelines. And you continue to "smear" her as a person, as an intellectual, and as a caring person and friend to whomever on here.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if someone says if you don't have anything "nice" to say don't say anything...because "nice"  is a subjective word depending on our moods and what we wrote and how we perceive a "tone" in written word.

If the person checks critiques..then that may be what they get whether in open or not.

And if then ARH and you or myself say we don't want critiquing, then DON"T check it... and you will still get the "nice" replies without anything else, from most everyone who chooses to read and respond.

I don't see the need to go on and complain about any person on here. I thought from reading ARH's last few replies that she has re-explained her position and that others have explained theirs and the "tone" had settled down with the understanding that it  was misunderstandings.

So why can't you let it go now?

It seems to have become personal.

M

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


10 posted 01-31-2004 06:52 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Very personal.

This is getting ridiculous Goldenrose. Please back off.

Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


11 posted 01-31-2004 07:33 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Moderator edit of inappropriate name-calling

[This message has been edited by Nan (01-31-2004 08:19 AM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


12 posted 01-31-2004 07:55 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh, I don't know. Kind of like slowing down to gape at a car accident, I have a morbid fascination with someone digging their own grave.

No doubt this is intended of course.
Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


13 posted 01-31-2004 07:59 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Moderator edit of inappropriate innuendo

[This message has been edited by Nan (01-31-2004 08:20 AM).]

Goldenrose
Member Elite
since 05-30-2003
Posts 3637


14 posted 01-31-2004 08:03 AM       View Profile for Goldenrose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Goldenrose

Moderator edit of inappropriate name-calling

[This message has been edited by Nan (01-31-2004 08:20 AM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 01-31-2004 08:28 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh, I wouldn't dream of trying to tell you anything, GR.

quote:
..or are you just too scared yourself to say anything against Ron or his little pet Severn?...


I simply find these statements entertaining.  I have been pulling my punches but because you won't listen to anything I have to say. You've already made up your mind; it would be useless.  

quote:
Goldenrose So you like Douglas Adams....what has that got to do with anything....


Uh, that was the point.

quote:
You are still are Yes man.....BRAD.....


Fine. I differ with Ron on a big issue though. I don't really care if you worry about cliques (Hell, when I was more active I was actually trying to promote a clique), or favoritism, or arbitrary decisions. At another site, I argued against the inclusion of any guidelines at all. It was the owner's site, run it the way you want to.

This isn't a government, it's a web site.

One more thing, if anything Severn said caused someone to lose their poetic ambition, they didn't have poetic ambition in the first place.

By definition.

nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


16 posted 01-31-2004 08:28 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Phil, it does concern all on here ..it is OUR site along with Ron.

WE ( all on here) make up the poets...you can't have someone apologize for anything other than your situation...if it calls for it.

Where are all those others...

And I do believe there are probably those who feel you owe them an apology as well...
people do not have to say the words I AM SORRY, to show they care..or misunderstood.

And if you feel it concerns none
of the rest of us..then you should not have this  done in public for all to read.

M


Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


17 posted 01-31-2004 09:16 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

No Severn, you do not know my views on intellect. I said once I do not begrudge someone their intellectual accomplishments.  

I am not particularly going to be impressed by them either just by virtue of the fact they have them.  

I would focus my attention on how an individual uses their talents, whatever they might be.

It is unfortunate Goldenrod entered into this thread, I personally started a new thread to avoid what happened from happening.  But such is life.

Brad, I thought I made myself clear enough  while trying to walk that fine line of the forum guidelines. For that I apologize, but again, your responses are a frequent response not only here in Passions, but in the real world to side step a issue.

You see one side to the issue, I see two and I am quite sure there are many more sides that have as much or more validity.

I have found in life experience that you do not take what a person tells you they are saying, but what they are saying in context to the total picture.

It is all right to not believe Romantic Heart, but if it is someone we align with, then we must automatically take what they say at face value?  I have to smile on that one.

If Ron would want me to leave the forum Balladeer, I will willingly abide by his wishes. Or can chastize me, heck, it is his forum.  I bear him no ill will at all and respect what he has done.  I will admit I do not hold him in quite the esteem some do and that in no way means I have any negative feelings.  I do not however feel he is omniscient and incapable of mistakes in judgment as am I and anyone else.  

I know people will not take this at face value, but I was someone curious to see the reactions to my thread and got pretty much what I suspected.  I bear no anomosity but find the responses interesting but on the other hand they do reinforce my own views on the points I made.

My experience is that those willing to give criticism are just a likely as those who don't to not appreciate criticism directed at themselves.

I went over the line with the tone I used last night. I had a rough day yesterday.  That is no excuse but it happened. That does not negate the points I made which I still have heard nothing to change my mind, in fact the responses of Brad and Severn only confirmed them in my mind.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


18 posted 01-31-2004 09:26 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Um, what side am I missing?
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


19 posted 01-31-2004 09:36 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

that's one ya got to figure out yourself Brad...
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


20 posted 01-31-2004 09:39 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Gee, ain't it wonderful how we're all so wonderfully predictable.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


21 posted 01-31-2004 09:56 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Hi, Tim.

I believe that this whole situation got out of control from the meaning of ARH's
initial posting.  Her beliefs are hers to feel and she does have a right to them. And I think that question or conflict was settled...her point of view made clear and  the misunderstandings to follow.

I think that it is the demands made that will never happen, when people are stubborn or believe their intent was never to hurt/harm/embarass another.

Everyone has their individual personality, their own likes and dislikes and their own moods and intepretation of words according to  what they have learned and been exposed to.

I didn't mean to interrupt the purpose of your thread, nor intend to make Goldenrose or ARH feel attacked..I  was hoping for some understanding.

Maureen
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


22 posted 01-31-2004 09:56 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

now you have me smiling Brad, because I had typed the same response in to your previous post and then deleted it.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


23 posted 01-31-2004 10:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, put that down in the column of other comments I don't understand. I certainly said nothing about you being the problem or Ron wanting you to leave...where you came up with that is beyond me.

My only point was I did not understand the initiation of this thread. You were looking for poetry to relax you after a tough day. What kind of poetry were you looking for in the Alley? Instead you began a thread attacking attackers, ridiculing ridiculers, challenging challengers, berating beraters...all over a topic that did not involve you at all. You initiated a thread, without personal provocation, committing all of the actions you were complaining about being committed - and I still don't understand why. I know you to be an intelligent man, not some hot-headed kid looking for attention so that makes it more befuddling.

It almost reminds me of the bumper sticker "Honk if you love peace and quiet".
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


24 posted 01-31-2004 10:22 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Balladeer, my mind works in strange ways. I have been told that often. (that is meant to be semi-hunorous and also as semi-truthful)
As I said, I had a bad day yesterday, (certain kinds of cases involving children do that to me) That is my problem.
My intent of the evening got changed as was evident.  I got tired of the other thread and responded as how I perceived the situation.
That is still how I perceive the situation.

It is the Alley and I ranted and raved.  If the problem had not been put in a public forum for all to see a lot of folks would not have responded.

Most generally I stay out of other people's affairs.  

Occasionally I will step in when something particularly irks me or I think a mismatch is occuring.  

I saw both.

My comments about Ron were as they were written.  If I stepped over the line I will take the consequences for my actions as I clearly in my mind violated forum rules and am probably still doing so.

I just have little use for what as I perceive as arrogance and condescending attitudes and heaven knows I am guilty of those offenses on occasion myself.  And I full well realize what perception means.

The bottom line is the thread was started for me to rant.  I did.  If I offended anyone I apologize.
 
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