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PASSION IN POETRY CLIQUES......
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PASSION IN POETRY CLIQUES...... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665
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Ron.....you behaved exactly how i would have expected to behave on the critique thing....all of your little clique of Administrator friends are quite alright to critique and savage other poets poems but when an ''ordinary'' member of PIP asks for an administrator to be looked into for over stepping the mark....surprise.... surprise..it is not the administrators fault but the members fault..who was it started these viscious critques in the first place?...was it a member or administrator?...answer that and stay fashionable!!!!!!!!!!......but then if the ordinary members fail to suck up to you because.... after all its your party and you'll cry if you want to....then they just dont fit in do they...mr chief honcho....come down off that self elevated throne you sit on...after all anybody can ''invent themselves ''into the top seat.....all that the so called ''administrators'' prove is that they are very good yes men and women..... Admit that on PIP....if you dont creep round the people that matter....you are not welcome and that for the most part you would rather not have these people post poems here..... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
Hello, Let me introduce myself, I am Opeth of Piptalk. I don't know you, nor have I ever corresponded with you before, but I am compelled to reply this post... Have you really given yourself some time to think this all through? Do you realize that this is only an Internet forum? Enjoy your life and quit fretting over petty issues, such as critiques on poetry and cliques on websites. If these issues matter to you that much... take a good look at yourself and your surroundings - go out and enjoy the landscapes, read a book, have lunch with a friend, take a break from the world of the Internet. Relax, take a deep breath and smile, the weekend and the rest of your life is upon you.  |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Please do not presume to tell me how to run my life....some of the issues in this matter are of importance to the people who write at this site....no you do not know me..at all...so go about your own life and do not presume to tell me how to run mine.... Everything may be flowers and roses to you but...there are important issues here... thank you...... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Opeth Senior Member
since 2001-12-13
Posts 1543The Ravines |
If an issue dealing with a poetry website is so critical to you... I wish you well. btw - no hard feelings, ok? I was attempting to be helpful and provide you a chance to exit gracefully from this matter. My intentions were good. Good luck! "If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead." |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
As one of the 'so called' Administrators, I can tell you I've never critiqued anyone. I don't know how! As for being a 'yes' man? ME? LOL You've got to be kidding me!! As to a clique? Sigh....I only wish I was in one. I'm sure PiP has some, we're a community and people tend to form social groups in communities, but I tend to shy away from regimented cliques. I think you'll find the Moderators and Administrators here are as diverse a group as you could want. And one more thing? Attacking someone personally is against the guidelines. I feel you are attacking Ron, Kit, Nan, Karilea and me along with the Moderators who put in countless hours of volunteer time to keep this a safe haven for people like you who want to post their poetry in a safe environment. quote: |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
i dont believe that i am attacking people personaly....i was merely generalsing about a well known and commonly held thought...you are trying to insinuate that i am personaly attacking someone when i am not..... In any case if you feel that you have been personaly attacked then you come close to feeling how the demoralised poet who has been savagedly critqued feels when their works has been torn to shreds by people who think themselves more important than others... makes no differnce to me...who needs PIP at all come to think of it... Goldenrose. ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: By you, perhaps. But are you deigning to speak for others? I am under the impression you wanted this to be a one-on-one with Ron, GR - but why didn't you just take it to an E-mail? |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Ah! I see. Ok. You were critiqued by someone and felt it was too harsh? PiP is notorious for being easy on poets though. Have you tried some of the other sites where 'savage critiques' are given on EVERY poem? Can you provide a link to the poem in question? Sometimes it's difficult to determine someone's 'tone' here on the internet. I may say something I think is pretty clever and insightful but you would take it as something sarcastic and rude. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Among the rest of your comments, this one jumps out at me... quote: as well as quote: Oddly enough, these comments seem to directly contradict themselves, don't they? MY response to you, sir - YOU obviously don't know RON very well. I assure you he makes no attempt to elevate his "throne." He's far too busy shoveling snow and cleaning up all the mud that's tracked into this PiP-house. I assure you as well that he holds the administrators and moderators to the same standards as he does the membership-at-large. What he DOESN'T do, is hang the administrative laundry out in the front yard for the neighborhood to critique. I've now lost considerable respect for you, sir. Nancy (A so-called administrator who freely disagrees with Ron when she so chooses) |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"...savage other people's poems"..that one is worth a shot on Benny Hill. Of course no example of this savagery were presented. You present yourself as an "ordinary" member? I can assure you that you are not. The thousands of "ordinary" member have no problems with posting or the moderation of this site. They accept it as a place where they are entitled to present their work, meet like-minded people and have a little escape from real life all at no charge to them with someone else doing the work and picking up the tab. You would rather attack it in public to get the most exposure with the possibility of gathering support from others. Do you see that support? If that doesn't matter to you then you are just posting like this to be antagonistic and everyone who responds here is an unwitting accomplice in your plan, including me, by giving the illusion that your words are valid enough to respond to. The fact that people are actually responding should indicate to you that these people do actually care. Instead of dismissing you they are still trying to reason with you in spite of any insulting manner on your part. Do not expect Ron to give importance or dignity to your ramble with a public reply. He has more class than savages like me. You go to a restaurant and feel you have been given bad service, you leave, tossing off an parting insult if that's your style. You don't keep going back and continue to insult, unless insulting is your main objective. It's regrettable you find this place so unfair. I can think of several other sites which would be more suitable to a person of your character. Every person enriches this site - some by coming, some by going. The choice of enrichment is yours... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, I see this as a personal attack, but have been told before by Da Guru that if such are directed at him, to have a bit more leniency. He's the Boss, and I respectfully comply. It is true, however, that the Admins, SM's and DM's are treated differently. We are held in stricter measure to the guidelines, as what we do must serve as a yardstick to others. I do find the backtracking mildly humorous. One normally doesn't throw down the gauntlet then explain it as simply dropping an accidental glove in the most innocent of fashions. If nothing else, the tantrum gave me something to grin over with my morning coffee. Alicat Alley/Lounge Mod |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
"Yaaawwwwnnnnnnn..." Morning all.. someone have the coffee on?? Huh? oh..I see you were talking..sorry to interrupt.. I'll go get my coffee over in open....and try not to disturb yo all.. By the way... all you moderators have your quota sheets filed out? You know it is the end of the month and if you don't have at least a dozen complaints of favoritism and irrational behavior against you we have to put you on probation.. Don't forget... close of business on the last day of the month all reports are due!!! now.. where was that coffee??? |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
biting my tongue.... and boy!! does it hurt... M |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
In less than two hundred words, Goldenrose, you've managed to mix no less than five issues. What do you say we see if we can't separate them? quote: I'm guessing this is your real complaint, so let's cover it first. You think you were right and Severn was wrong? Fine. Address the issues, then. Although some might prefer simple stereotypes, the truth is that I'm always willing to listen to cogent arguments directed at specific issues. Show me exactly which parts of Severn's post you think were directed at a person, rather than a statement or issue. Then look at your own post in that thread, and show me how each of your points were focused only on the issues and not on personal characteristics. If you're convinced you're right, you should be able to convince others. To do that, though, you'll have to stick to the issues. Now, we might well still disagree, but at least we'll be disagreeing about the same things. IMO, Goldenrose, you made the same mistakes in that post that you're making in this one. Your arguments are rife with tangents and histrionics, making it difficult to find, follow, or address your real points. Do we have cliques at pipTalk? Sure, we do. Is it possible I would let Severn's five-year commitment to the forums color my judgment? Sure, I'm human, so I guess it's possible. I honestly think, though, that our history and the fate of a few other long-term Members might suggest friendship holds less sway than facts. And, bottom line, any friendship that depends on special treatment was already doomed. I tend to say what I think, even to those I love, and my real friends always know that doesn't mean I love them any less. I know Kamla knows that, too. I think it's much more likely that, rather than address the issues, you stretched a little far to find a cause and effect that isn't quite there. Just because I tell you the moon is a cold, inhospitable place, that doesn't mean I don't like the moon because it's not part of my clique. It just means, the way I see it, the moon is a cold, inhospitable place. quote: What vicious critiques? quote: LOL. Three different issues here, though a bit scrunched together. First, ordinary members, as far as I'm concerned, is an oxymoron. Ain't no such creature. Second, it's a bit difficult to draw such a discernable line between Members and Moderators around here. Many of today's Moderators will be next week's Members, and virtually any Member can volunteer for a two-week rotation to help us keep the joint clean and livable. The neat thing about revolving doors is that they join more than they separate. Third, if you actually believe about a thousand active Members always agree with me, I'm guessing you don't have much respect for writers. Or much understanding of their nature. Do you really think you're so incredibly unique and heroic? LOL. Not only is it cool to disagree around here, whether with me or with others, but I've always tried to encourage that kind of atmosphere. In part, that's because I believe we rarely consider or articulate our deepest convictions until we are forced to defend what we believe. Disagreements help us grow as individuals, as thinkers, and as writers. But I also believe disagreements are the only way to test our tenets of Respect and Tolerance. It's really easy to be respectful when everyone is friendly and patting each other on the back. It only matters, however, when it's not so easy. Respect for people and Tolerance of diversity are the magic dust that can turn disagreements from walls into vehicles. I sincerely hope, Goldenrose, you stick around long enough to learn that lesson. |
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Professor Gloom Member Elite
since 2000-07-23
Posts 3082of Depression |
Dang Ron I’d like to disagree with you Just on principle, but I can’t. As always you are fair and objective (even if a bit stuffy ( but I like stuffy). You are a discussing man not an arguer, I’m interested in seeing if Goldenrod brings up any facts Or just more raw emotion. But as a poet, you have to expect Raw Emotion. Gloom |
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KristieSue
since 2003-01-31
Posts 1460PA, US |
Ron, I think maybe you are like the Wizard on the Wizard of Oz... people who don't know you, take the time to talk to you or realize you're human...fear you. but as soon as they pull the curtain from over their eyes, they love ya :-) "Painting is poetry which is seen and not heard, and poetry is a painting which is heard but not seen." ~Leonardo da Vinci |
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Kosetsu Member
since 2001-03-10
Posts 450Alabama, USA |
Mm....PiP is clique-ish. Everyone knows it, and no one wants to admit it. Is that a bad thing? Only if most communities and organizations are evil for having cliques. You'll run into cliques everywhere--work, school, online communities, the local Quik-e-mart. It's a fact of life that most people don't like, but most people aren't willing to bother changing it. If you feel left out, make your own little clique, and we can have gang wars, PiP style. Woo! Yes, that was sarcasm. The point of this? Get over yourself. Whether you're in the incrowd or the outcrowd, you're still human, and that makes you only about as good as the next guy. -Adam [Edit:] Though I have to say I disagree with this little stint about people being overly critical on Open. I just looked through the first 25 poems on Open 31, and several of the ones on 30, and I can't say I found much of anything that would be considered overly-critical. If anything, they were lacking in critiques. Your life was lost; sweetheart I grieve for you Sweetheart, I wish there was something I could do But sweetheart, there's no hope for you |
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BluesSerenade Member Patricius
since 2001-10-23
Posts 10549By the Seaside |
I read Kamla's critique to ARH and it was pretty tame as far as I am concerned. But more to the point, why are you fighting her battle in the first place? Because she's sensitive? Whatever...you are being flat out rude, disrespectful, and ungrateful goldenrose, and your behavior is completely out of line. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Coming from one who has indicated a revulsion for personal attacks, your post seems to be full of it. And I do mean full of it. |
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Mistletoe Angel 
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 I do believe we all have a tendency to be condescending and to be fashioned in cliques here, even Ron and the moderators can be condescending, and that's perfectly natural. What's not natural is your right to throw dirt and debris at Ron and many of us here and tell him, our Wizard, that he's "not welcome" when obviously over 95% of the poets here WOULD rather post their poems here. Personally, I find what you've said to be a direct assault not just on Ron but over much of this poetic community. Perhaps you should think about what you've just said for a while, as your words were unnecessarily unrestrained, libelous, uncouth, and rather selfish. If you can't learn to respect and appreciate all Ron has to offer us all in a most fair manner and all us here who believe in the freedom of writing, I have just this to say to you! Good riddance and good luck in finding a forum equally or more flexible and friendly as Passions. Sincerely, Noah Eaton "You'll find something that's enough to keep you But if the bright lights don't receive you You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20 |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Goldenrose- A question.... You and I have been members for just about the same amount of time... and yet how is it possible that I COMPLETELY missed everything you are saying? I need to thank you for opening my eyes... That would explain why I was chastised for a response to a post that I made, even though I was a moderator... I wasn't one of the clique... Now it all makes sense... And for the posts that I took into the Moderator forum that were kept in the forums because they didn't need to be edited... I understand now, that the poems I had questions about, and thought that might be outside of the line, were discussed and voted on only to make things look good, and that they had NO chance of being pulled, even if they were objectionable because I wasn't a "yes-man"... How did I ever miss that? Oh, wait... if that is the case, then I have something else I don't understand that maybe you can help me with... before I became a moderator, I made some really stupid comments to a moderator, and still I was allowed to be a member on the site. Why would that be? I wasn't a member of that "clique" and I was disrespectful, and made statements that showed I disagreed with him. Why is it that I wasn't censured? And another thing... since I wasn't a "yes-man" and since I was slamming a member of Ron's little kiss-butts, why were there members of that little group that stood in by behalf?? Since I became a Mod, and I had my ability to reason for myself removed, I can't understand this... can you please supply me with the answer? OK... maybe I was being a little sarcastic, however, I have one very simple question that I would like to ask. have you ever been put into a position of responsibility over others? I'm not talking about being a junioor Den leader, or whatever, I am talking being put in a position to have to deal with in excess of a large number of people, most of whom have VERY differing opinions about EVERYTHING in their lives? If you were, did you have all of them praising you for every little thing? Especially if you had to punish one of them, no matter how slight the slap on the wrist was? If you did, then, you were not doing your job. I have one more question that I don't need an answer to... just think about it HONESTLY... If you had spent a great deal of your life and a great amount of your sweat putting together a site dedicated to something that you loved... and on which you didn't accept ANY renumeration, taking all of the expenses unto yourself... and one that had 1000 people all saying different things about the same subject, and all of whom have their own adjendas... would you be able to do it and keep everyone happy? And what if you had people calling you names, and talking bad about your friends, and the people who have been loyal to you for 5 years or more? How would you feel then? Would you be able to do a better job than the owner of this site? Well, I will take this time to invite you to show us all just how inadequate we are, and how great you are. It should only take you about $600 or so to get a small site together, not to mention the time involved. Once you have done so, please give us the link so we can come and revel in its glory. Until then, please become a moderator for 2 weeks so we can enjoy your thoughts and ideas, and so that you might see what it is those guys and gals go through. Cause in my dreams it's always there The evil face that twists my mind And brings me to despair. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Goldenrose? You have my sympathy. I thought I had people here "pegged" too. Turns out I didn't even know myself. Life and people are so deliciously complex, and everything you need to know about life, you should have learned in kindergarten. (Gee...somebody oughtta write a book!) sigh. I don't believe you are a bad person GR. I have a hard time believing that anyone is, actually. I think we are all just fumbling for matches in the dark. And poetry is the expression of all of the fear and wonder and loathing and joy that encompass that miraculous mystery. Why don't you go write some? I promise you, on your deathbed, you will not be worrying about whether you should have parsed a sentence. And the person who critiques you will not be on their deathbeds parsing it for you. (Okay, Kamla might.)  but I love her for that too. It's all poetry, and my friend? It is much too short. Go hug somebody. If not, I've heard cow-tipping can be amusing too. and yes, I need a nap. love and peace, sweet poets. It really is all good. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I've been a Senior Moderator here for 'round 4-1/2 years now. I argue with everyone. Sometimes the arguements have been civil, sometimes not. Through it all, however, there has been an underlying fairness that has not only kept me here, but has encouraged growth that I don't think I would have had somewhere else. It has been trying sometimes and Ron and I still disagree on quite a few things, but now we do it with civility and respect. There are cliques here - just as at work, schools, bars, & any other place where more than half a dozen people gather together at a time. What's wrong isn't that they exist (people gathering is a good thing). What's wrong is that they're exclusive. That's the cool part about Passions - it can be cliquish, but there's still always room for everyone to be included. The lesson I learned a long time ago: cope. It does a body good. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Sigh. I thought about not responding but I've seen my name far too much in the posts above so I'll just have to speak for myself. GR - I'm keeping this short though because I find your post laughable more than anything else - (I think purely because you haven't presented any concrete arguments? Just a ramble. Rambling's ok, but when you're trying to show evidence for something, logic works.) Points: One - Ron does not take part in any so-called clique that I have ever seen. Believe me when I say - I've been called out by him before. Truth be told, he's made me REALLY angry before, but he's also pointed truths out to me sometimes. Two - I don't happen to belong to a clique either. I have a handful of close close friends on this site and they're all close friends of other members I don't know haha. Three - You call what I said on ARH's post a savage critique?? Are you kidding me? I asked her WHY she asks people to say NICE things while she has her flag checked. And then I asked her what the poem meant. She told me. The end. Four - savaging people. No, GR, I have not savaged anybody. I have not done any indepth critiques on any poetry in open (except for one person's, who is my critique-buddy - and he returns the favour believe me) recently. Why? Because I can't be bothered at the moment. If you had seen my long, line-by-line critiques you might actually fall over lol. Usually, I get thanked for what I say - either in the thread, or via email. Funnily enough - it's always other members who have problems with my critiques. And, to follow the pattern, not one person I have critiqued recently has responded with anything less than 'thanks' and 'that really helped.' Five - honesty. A year or more ago I did an extensive critique in Open and another member abused me through email for it. It put me off. Ron called me on that too, not so long ago. I thought about it - and I've come back. And I shall stay, critiquing - in Open where there are flags checked, and in CA. (Karen love - you're probably right you know...groan...hahahahah) Six - I don't really want to open up a closed thread, but I will say this. I did not 'bring names' into anything. I was responding to what you had said. Make sense?  K |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Yes, I think Karen is right  |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Well, it appears this thread has generated a lot of comments through the day since I first saw it this morning. I think that’s bound to happen when volunteers are publicly chastised for attempting to do their job. The only additional comment I wanted to add was regarding the following quote: quote: To that, I say the following: -Am I tired of implications of cliques and the like? YES -Do I wish that people would read and abide by the simple guidelines we request? YES -Am I tired of spending 2 hours each morning reading and evaluating problem posts of varying degrees instead of reading and responding to actual poetry? YES -Do I wish we had less problem posts to evaluate daily? YES -Am I tired of defending the decisions we make when each decision has been taken seriously and reviewed in full by a good cross-section of moderators? YES -Am I proud of the job that the moderators perform at this site? YES -Will I keep doing this for another 4 years anyway? YES ~*~ So ... I guess I'm a YES woman in that sense. Beyond that, the quote above couldn’t be further from the mark. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
now quit saying Karen is right....lord.. she will start thinking she knows enough to write a book or something.. Oh... yeah.. well I guess she does knwo enough to do that... well anyway.. she'll get the big head and then she'll topple over because of the higher center of gravity come a good strong hurricane... |
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Alicat Member Elite
since 1999-05-23
Posts 4094Coastal Texas |
Well, if nothing else, if one is feeling rather lonely, this is one sure-fired way of getting email.  |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ali - ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! K |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Become a moderator - Get email! Woohoo  Great slogan!And Kamla, you can critique me on your deathbed if you want. Considering our ages, it's more likely to be mine though |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
or simply click on almost any pop up-- give them your email addy--and soon you will be awash in so many emails your only salvation will be to abandon ship and get a new address There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
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Miah Senior Member
since 2002-08-26
Posts 1062Pennsylvania |
Cliques? there everywhere, my cat and dog are in a clique. They talk behind my back and make funny faces. Okay really, who is in a clique? Hey you want to hear something sad, it will make you feel better! the only email I got today was from ron and that was sending my password! |
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A Romantic Heart Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-03
Posts 5496Forever In Your Heart |
I see the masquerade is over, all the mask are off.... WOW PIP would have some great, imaginitive, witty, sarcastic poetry....if only an once of it was poured into poems as it is poured out throughout the replys here.....What great poets that would make..... Just my critique...... |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Why is it that i have had emails stating that Severn has always been Ron's little pet...and that what i have said is the truth?...and who did this come from.. an ex admin/moderator..who has seen it first hand...that was why the person in question left....amin?moderators cannot stand criticsm....if they could i would not have asingle reply to this post..but loh and behold ...all of them come out to suck up to the boss....severn..if you critique any of my future work harshly i shall take it as a vendetta..not that you ever would....but two can play at that game and it will be open season on any of your futre work.... End of story i made my point even if some of you refuese to face up to your won failings... Goldenrose.(Not Goldenrod....but this is not insulting is it). ''Each soul is potentialy divine..the goal is to manifest that divinity'' |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
Phil, it isn't necessary to threaten anyone on here. If what both of you would like are only "nice" replies or those kind of critiques ( which are not really helpful for growth) why not just uncheck the yes box or box (I don't remember which it is)and then all replies will be from those who enjoy your words and say so..it is as easy as that. and I am not a moderator nor connected to any...just trying to tell you the easy way to be assured of no "hurtful words" or negative interpretations towards someone or their poetry. M |
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Goldenrose Member Elite
since 2003-05-30
Posts 3665 |
Maureen why do you feel you have the right to say anything on any subject i have raised?... i am not talking to you...so kindly keep your yes woman thoughts to yourself.... and as far as i am concerned bring on the harshest of critiques to my work....''water off a ducks back'' as the real English speaking and motherland of the true english language say...you can have all of your degrees from anywhere on this earth..but only one realy and truely counts....England the home of the greatest writers EVER.... Goldnerose. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I like Douglas Adams too, but this is getting bizarre. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Goldenrose. Maureen has the right to make comments on any open thread on these boards - because she's a member here - just like you. Please respect our members' rights and their abilities. We proudly host a collection of FINE writers from ALL corners of our spherical world. This issue has now gone on long enough - We're going in redundant circles now, and casting stones for no productive purpose. This does not support our tenets of respect and tolerance, does it? Let's get on to the task of writing some great poetry, shall we? |
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