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Passions in Poetry

Critique

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Professor Gloom
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since 07-23-2000
Posts 3074
of Depression


0 posted 01-29-2004 02:30 PM       View Profile for Professor Gloom   Email Professor Gloom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Professor Gloom's Home Page   View IP for Professor Gloom

Ah the wonder of it, Critique
Definition: 1 an essay or article containing a careful analysis of a literary or artistic work; review.  2 The art of criticizing; criticism

Ron said we could bring this back up again, so as the Professor (and with a minor in English) I felt I should.
Perhaps I am the one that caused this,
Not that I remember any recent events where I have critiqued harshly,
But I have been known to do it.
Yes even to first time posts.
When I do I am not doing it to run down the poet
Rather to aid and nurture the poet.
Although I do get carried away at time, such is the poet in me gushing forth,
In fact I have been known to actually rewrite poems
As a way of example.
I know of one case where the poet I rewrote changed the critique message so I wouldnít do it to their poem again.  Which is what the message is there for, as well as that little check mark.
If anyone ever things my critique is unfair
Send me an e-mail, Iíll change the message.

Maybe Ron should add a Cotton Candy area
Where people only respond with sugar-coated fluff,
But donít expect me to post there
I rather heard a well thought out critique in a kind manner
Or the emotion that the poem gives to the reader.

Too many poetry places are flames or fluff
Here is a better environment
Thanks for it Ron.

Gloom

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


1 posted 01-29-2004 03:37 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Maybe Ron should add a Cotton Candy area
Where people only respond with sugar-coated fluff,


See, you were doing really, really well here, Gloom, until you inadvertently slipped into judgment mode. One person's fluff is another person's acknowledgement, just as one person's critique can often be another person's drivel.

The idea, not just here in the forums but I think in all of life's relationships, is that we should all be able to get what we want, without pushing others to want what we give them. The only way that works is if we recognize other people's desires as valid, even when (as is usually the case) we can't understand those desires.
Tais
Member
since 01-28-2004
Posts 76
Ontario, Canada


2 posted 01-30-2004 06:14 AM       View Profile for Tais   Email Tais   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Tais's Home Page   View IP for Tais

Hi,

I hope I am not intruding with my opinion in this thread. I am new here, so I can only say what I think about critique, in general, but not the way it is given here. I haven't read nor posted enough to give my opinion of the way people critique in this site.

About critique:
-I don't have any English degree at all. I am a chemist, a teacher, an activist and some other things.
-I love reading poetry. Some of them make me cry, some make me laugh, some make me think about life more, some make my heart flutter with butterflies and many more feelings.
-I love writing poetry. The words are on my mind, the feeling is in my heart. So I write, edit, re-edit, and am proud of the final draft. But, I love opinon from the 'experts'. Their opinions on my work help me improve, and that's very satisfying.
-I have feelings. So words sometimes hurt.
For example: If someone tells me that I don't know how to write, or that I'm a lousy poet, I will get hurt. Why? It's because I consider them experts and I take their opinions on my work serously. I listen to them and try to learn.
But how does one improve their writing, when someone says they are a lousy poet? I don't think, in this case, there is any room left for improvement...only the decision to stop writing then.
That's only an example, I haven't seen it written anywhere.
But words are important - choose them wisely.
The experts in English know this, and know how to express themselves very well.
I like nice comments. They make me feel good and feel that someone liked my work. It inspires me.
But I also like critique. It helps me improve.
But I think the problem being discussed here is:
What's the difference between a constructive critique and an insult?
Nothing, in my opinion, makes people more discouraged to write, than someone telling them they don't know how.
It might be just the way it was said. But it *is* psychological. It does affect the writer in a negative way.
I don't take things personally. But  as I do tend to listen and take seriously, those who have expertise in a certain area, it does hurt and discourages to continue to write if they were tell me I don't know how.

Just my feelings on this...I do want to improve but not be discouraged. I do like compliments, they give me inspiration.

When I mentioned 'experts' I am referring to people who have studied  a lot in their area, and know how to analyze other people's work. They are here to help, not to destroy. And I am sure that a lot of them do help and encourage at the same time.

Tais

Professor Gloom
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since 07-23-2000
Posts 3074
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3 posted 01-30-2004 10:03 AM       View Profile for Professor Gloom   Email Professor Gloom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Professor Gloom's Home Page   View IP for Professor Gloom

Ron, thanks for the comment,
I hope you realize that I was not advocating a forum,
But tongue in cheek attempting to point out that diversity of opinion
All flame or all fluff does not make an interesting place to post.
I also was not advocating any changes to policy
Things are fine as they are, problems can be worked out
With communications.

Tais,
All comments are welcomed by me that are thoughtful, as yours are.
I also am a chemist, that was my major and why I could only minor in English
Those labs just took up too much time.
And critique is very different than flaming,
Flaming is telling someone you dislike the piece
Critique is telling why you dislike the piece.

Gloom
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 01-30-2004 07:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What is the difference between an insult and a critique?

A critique can be discussed, an insult can be ignored.

Midnitesun
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since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


5 posted 01-30-2004 08:59 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

BRAVO, loved Brad's reply!
I find there is a very big difference between critiquing and criticising. One is constructive, the other is generally destructive.
One helps you grow, the other can make you shrink in fear if you are a reactive person who gives too big a hoot about another's opinion.
I never object to critques of my work, though I rarely get them for some reason. HUMPH! I KNOW I have lots of room for improvemnet.
BTW, I have a degree in English, but rarely feel competent to critique, and find criticising leaves a very bitter taste on my tongue.

Some people just write to share, not caring about punctuation, grammar or form. that doesn't make their poetry or prose any less interesting, but it DOES frustrate an English major or graduate when they've endured yards and yards of red line marks on term papers, only to find out their work isn't any more popular than the person who MISSPELLS constantly and refuse to follow the "established rules" of English.
LOL, I wish some people would lighten up a bit and learn to enjoy the content rather than the form, but for those who ask for critiques?
LETEM HAVIT!
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


6 posted 01-31-2004 12:43 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Oh come on Brad - you know there are some who can't distinguish between the two...subjectivity and whatnot

K
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


7 posted 01-31-2004 01:02 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

If they don't know, they should ask.
Severn
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since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


8 posted 01-31-2004 01:19 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Nice idea but good luck?

K
A Romantic Heart
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since 09-03-99
Posts 5497
Forever In Your Heart


9 posted 01-31-2004 05:32 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

It is not a matter of knowing what is critique or criticism, but if the poet request for it or not....and if the poet explains what kind of reply they want.(common sense tells you from this written inside their critique box"If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all") to me they are not asking for ANY critique or criticism..why is it so hard to not RESPECT their preference.....and reply accordingly...or not reply at all....

Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH

[This message has been edited by A Romantic Heart (01-31-2004 06:23 AM).]

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 01-31-2004 06:47 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

But you gotta admit that this is a little ambiguous when placed in the full context:

A Romantic Heart encourages Constructive Critiques: "If you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all"

Of course, it's clear now what you meant, but, but 'good' here could mean something quite different than you intended.

To be sure, I'm not blaming you. My critique box was off for six months or so without realizing it. To those who knew me, it didn't matter of course, but it's certainly possible that some new guy refrained from a really good, scathing critique because he or she was actually trying to follow the rules.

Ron
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since 05-19-99
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11 posted 01-31-2004 09:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
you know there are some who can't distinguish between the two

I suspect that's because the only distinction between an insult and critique is not an external one. I discuss insults frequently enough (wasted, seemingly, a few hours yesterday doing exactly that) and routinely ignore critiques from people with too little information to judge, so I'm afraid Brad's sound bite is a little too simplified to suit me. After all, good insults can be just as useful as good critiques, and bad critiques just as useless as bad insults.

The only consistent difference I've ever found between the two is intent. And that's a tough nut to crack. Most of my life has been spent guessing, not just as to other's intentions, but very often even guessing as to my own.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


12 posted 01-31-2004 08:51 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Oh, c'mon Ron. I think you're just jealous of my newly developed skill:

Brevity.

Okay, maybe it's not all that skillful. The key word is 'can' in both clauses. Still, it might be more accurate to say that critiques can be discussed, declarative statements can be ignored, but that doesn't sound as nice.



Paula Finn
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since 06-17-2000
Posts 5525
missouri


13 posted 02-03-2004 12:27 PM       View Profile for Paula Finn   Email Paula Finn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Paula Finn

Ok I know I don't get here very often anymore, and I try to read as much as I can so I don't even post many replies. But to me, and this is how I feel about me as well, I write from my heart...no its not always  or even close to perfect, its just what I feel. I can't critique myself and I sure as heck don't feel qualified to critique anyone else. So I do reply with "fluff" replies...so what? There is a forum here for poets who choose to have thier poetry critiqued. Otherwise I think if you can't say something nice you shouldn't say anything at all...just my opinion
bslicker
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since 12-04-2000
Posts 2416
state of mind


14 posted 02-04-2004 12:02 PM       View Profile for bslicker   Email bslicker   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bslicker

gosh i think that i need to go back to school and get my english degree, so i can comment on posts.

darn what should i do about building networks for the last 25 years, i really feel stupid now, guess i am not smart enough to post in pip or even moderate anymore.

hey i knows all you english majors, want to teach me how to write my feelings, i'll teach you all how to build networks.

wonder what the kids in school now would say about all these english majors teaching them and trying to figure out which one is actually correct.

darn it just 2 cents
couldn't help it after all the reading.


bernie

A smile a day keeps the world in smile's.
Bernie Slicker

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 02-04-2004 05:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And yet, why do you write so that it looks like traditional poetry?

What is the connection between feeling, as you say, and linebreaks?
Ron
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Michigan, US


16 posted 02-04-2004 05:40 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Wow! Kudos to Brad. (And to those who actually think about the question before answering it.)
Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


17 posted 02-04-2004 11:39 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Is poetry a science?  Does structure, meter, or line break form the rhythm of the poem or does the feeling of the poet create the structure, rhythm and indeed, the line breaks of the poem?
Did the poets of old say to themselves, hey let's change the foot in this one and try some iambic; or perhaps we should change from anapestic tetrameter to dactylic, or perhaps throw in a bit of enjambment to spice up the poem?
To be a poet, must one be versed in metrical scansion?
A poem is created out of the soul of the poet which allows for the creation of images, illusions, metaphors, similes, feeling and emotion.  Emotion is not created by form.

Do basic rules need to be adhered to in writing poetry?  As a general rule, yes.  But to every rule there are exceptions.  

Perhaps the best poets are the ones who understand and know the rules but are able to move beyond them.

Is critique valuable? Very much so, but it is not the end all. If great poetry were just form then the world would be blessed with limitless breathtaking poetry to experience and enjoy.

The connection between feeling and line breaks?  My opinion is line breaks are created by the feeling.

Which might be why each great poet has his or her own style.

Does a poet have to know the difference between a feminine and a masculine line ending, or what about the dreaded caesura to be able to write good poetry?  

A poet should attempt to learn and understand, but most importantly, a poet has to feel.  Then the line breaks will fall where the poet gods destine they fall. Just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Tim (02-05-2004 12:20 AM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


18 posted 02-05-2004 12:26 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, that's what the Romantics did, some of them at least.

But, Tim, you've completely neglected one aspect of poetry, some would say the most important part:

Sound

Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


19 posted 02-05-2004 12:31 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

different track, but I would say that is the great weakness of modern poetry.  It leans towards a visualization of its form and not the spoken word.  

in fact, in my limited opinion, the more you rely on sound, the less you need to rely on critique and following the "rules" because your ears are going to take you where you need to go.

So you can put me solidly in the sound camp.
you can bet your assonance on it.  (sorry, long day, approaching midnight here)
A Romantic Heart
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since 09-03-99
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Forever In Your Heart


20 posted 02-05-2004 05:10 AM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

To me poetry is an art, just like singing, dancing, painting, etc. All are created from self expression, therefore having a soul.Some are born naturally with a gift for these talents.

Steven King words: "I believe you can make a good writer better,(to enhance what is already there) but I don't believe you can take just anyone and send them to writing school and they become a writer, it all starts with a passion and desire.Either you have it or you don't.

Who is to say or judge that one abstract painting is better than a Bob Ross oil painting...to me they are all beautiful because they represent the creators heart. Each person is giving and displaying an intimate part of them for you to see. How can one expression be better or more perfect than the other....each piece is created with a soul. Therefore to me, we would be judging eachothers soul.

I could do poetry about a tree, and have all the grammer , t's and i's doted etc. If the poem is dead...no feeling or soul..what is the purpose? To me it would not be unique, just like reading a newspaper...

To me it is like a human without a soul, no heart. I do believe in learning and being better at what you desire to do.

I have heard singers just sing...and then I have listened to ones that made me cry...pulled my heart out. To me that is the difference, that is the passion, the soul, that is when it becomes more than words...You walk away changed, inspired,feeling and seeing the world differently. It affects you and leaves its mark...that is the magic.

To me there is not a certain formula to follow, then we would all be like the Stepford Wives..robots...diversity is what makes us different, unique.

As an artist, I would prefer to paint with a variety of one hundred colors..instead of using just eight...it makes the painting more real, alive and colorful...just as we as individuals make and create the world to be more colorful.Each bringing something different to the table of life..

Art is words expressed though paintings..etc.

Dancing is expression of words through body language.

Movies/film...words put into motion to allow you to see and feel the story being told.

Singing is poetry in motion...words put to rhythm....

Writing is words put together to tell a story...

Poetry is passionate words put together in a rhythm....To express the heart and deep thoughts.

To me all of the gifts of the arts go hand in hand..they are are born and created by emotion, feeling, desire and passion.If not, it is all dead......words with no purpose or meaning. To me words are the most powerful tool in the universe...they can destroy, divide,encourage and inspire.

After all,God created them...he knew how powerful they are...in the bible, it states that his word is sharper than a two edged sword...cutting the heart like a knife.


Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart, let me come in and show you love.....~ARH
2writeis2be
Junior Member
since 01-11-2004
Posts 42
Live in London, but from TX


21 posted 02-05-2004 05:49 PM       View Profile for 2writeis2be   Email 2writeis2be   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 2writeis2be

The main reason people put poetry on this forum is b/c they are proud of their work and want it to have its moment of glory. But for those that ask for/allow critique, they should justly get it--good or bad. Sometimes the author will find himself offended by a remark about what the reader thinks is lacking or could be changed in the poem, but eventually the writer will find these remarks are useful. Hearing only good things about one's writing all the time only provides a big head full of arrogant, powerless words. Though normally I find myself only remarking on reads that I've enjoyed, and skipping past the bad ones. Anyway, I think most would agree that negative criticism is sometimes a necessary evil; while the majority only make sunny comments and happy faces, some must tell the truth so the writer knows and is not mislead. Power to the blunt ones!!

"Why don't you try and learn from my mistakes? It takes half a lifetime to learn from your own."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


22 posted 02-06-2004 11:35 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

To me, poetry is an art.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


23 posted 02-06-2004 08:35 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

To me, poetry is an art. Why not talk about it?

Tim asks if poetry is a science. I ask why science is the only thing worth talking about?
Magnus
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since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


24 posted 02-06-2004 08:48 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Brad,  I hope you and Tim are enjoying this
little venture.  I don't mind joining for
a brief moment....for I will simply give my
personal take and I don't feel learned
enough to write from much more than my gut.

I think both of you are correct...Poetry
is an art,  it is also governed by some part
of science as well....

I FEEL about 1000 percent that to write good
poetry,  one must have a great deal of feel
to convey something to a reader and have
that reader FEEL what the author felt.  It
can be enhanced by knowing more of the
technical side of poetry....by learning about
scansion,  meter,  alliteration,  use of
the vocabulary in ways that enhance a line.
The proper or what feels proper as far as
line breaks are concerned.....etc. etc.
ad infinitum....

I am not one to strut around and say I know
all there is to know about poetry...for I
am far from it....I write with feel,  I
write with what I hear inside my mind as
well as what I imagine and see within my
mind's eye....

Good luck....I think you both have some
excellent points....

Barry

[This message has been edited by Magnus (02-06-2004 09:57 PM).]

 
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