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Passions in Poetry

Critique

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Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


50 posted 02-07-2004 12:27 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

How can you be a good poet without the meter and alliteration type stuff?

Don't dispute we make things too complicated, but---

She walks in beauty like the night

She is pretty.

Neither one is very complex with one using some fairly basic poetic devices.

The first is one of the most classic lines in poetry and in my humble opinion, perfection in simplicity.

The second conveys the same thought and avoids meter and such.

Are they both poetic expressions?

If the point is-

She is as beautiful as a snow white swan
Her pulchitrude outshines the glow of new day's dawn,

yep, you can go too far, but don't see how you cannot pay heed to poetic devices to express yourself poetically.
Magnus
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since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


51 posted 02-07-2004 01:54 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

I have to agree with Tim and Brad...There
is more to poetry besides just lines of
words with feeling....How it "sounds" to
the reader in their mind is also important.

For example....FEEL the flow of these two
lines....feel the meter...

Where cracks do creep in lava seep onto the earthen floor
and creatures crawl their dens to live beyond the ashen soar.

Are they perfect lines?  In my opinion,
probably not.  Do they have meter to them
and rhyme?  Yes,  certainly so...Could the
lines be improved upon?  Could another
person be allowed to gaze upon the lines
and give the author their true and honest
opinion of them,  possibly offering a change
to enhance what is already written?  MOST
DEFINITELY!!  That is what critique is all
about....it is about letting our guard down
a notch,  admitting we are all learning...
and allow others to offer good and valid
criticism...without being condescending, as
Brad had stated earlier....

Geez,  you guys got me going....
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


52 posted 02-07-2004 04:24 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

another thought to throw out.

A red apple.
A big apple.
Eight apples.

Combine into one sentence.  What rules of grammar were you taught to let you know in what order adjectives are to be placed before the noun?

I was not taught any.  

Yet you know it is eight big red apples rather than big eight red apples.

Does the same thought apply to poetry in that if you are going with the flow and expressing feelings that the rules will naturally follow?

for humor, do you "think" let's use dactyl and a serious poem spondee, even though as a general rule you use faster rhythms for light poetry and slower rhythms for serious poetry?  So maybe there is validity to 2write's position?  If you write from the heart; meter, alliteration and all that stuff will be there naturally whether you plan it or not?

Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


53 posted 02-07-2004 05:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
If you write from the heart; meter, alliteration and all that stuff will be there naturally whether you plan it or not?

ONLY if you read widely.

Education through osmosis is why so many think they can write with no formal training, whereas most wouldn't even dream of trying an oil painting or sculpture without some instruction. And that's cool, because osmosis works. The right kind of reading, I think, is a perfectly viable alternative to a more formal education. AND it's no less effort.
Magnus
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54 posted 02-07-2004 05:22 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

The reading part is a valuable tool.  I use
the internet as a search engine for many
words that come across these walls...As I
stated before,  I am far from intelligent
enough to accurately give technical critique
of most anyone's poem.  But,  one thing that
assists me is that I don't kid myself and
I am not ashamed to admit a lack of intellect
in some aspects of poetry and life
as well...  I am smart enough to break open
the book and pick up a few things from time
to time.  Today has not been an exception
and the time spent with you poets here has
been a learning experience.  

Thank You...  
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


55 posted 02-07-2004 05:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Just popping in here to add that I welcome critique, even bad critique.

I attempt forms I have no hope of ever mastering just because it's good exercize--chuckle--bad poetry maybe--but definitely good exercize.

Besides, I want to have every tool at my disposal to express more exactly what is in my heart.

If I'm not growing in some capacity, I'm stagnating, yanno?

So ya'll feel free to tear into any of mine--even the most abrasive critique leaves me wondering if the reader doesn't have a point.

Peace.
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


56 posted 02-07-2004 06:54 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Serenity, critique is a valuable tool.

The only point I would make is, consider the critique and take it seriously.

You definately will learn and we all can learn.  

Once you stop having the need to learn, you are six feet deep.

But at the end of the day, it will be your poetry and to your own self be true.

And I feel fairly certain you are one individual who does not need that advice.

I will throw my hat in with Ron, read.

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


57 posted 02-07-2004 07:00 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you, Tim...

and yup, to my own self I'm true.

but I'm laughing too.

the jury is still out on whether or not that's a good thing!

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


58 posted 02-07-2004 10:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Wow, that was the next thing I was planning to do, try to give simple examples.

And it's already been done.

But this thread is also a good example of the whole idea behind a critique (at least what I always thought). The idea was never really to tell other people what to do, but more to talk about options. To borrow a phrase from Blanchot, we wanted to participate in an infinite conversation, the infinite conversation of what makes poetry work and what doesn't. The fact that there is no rule book is an opening to talk about it, not a reason to remain silent.

Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


59 posted 02-08-2004 07:04 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


  What started out as an Alley Thread has been bookmarked by me as a learning tool.  
Magnus
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since 10-10-2001
Posts 14644
South Carolina, USA


60 posted 02-08-2004 09:38 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

So...now that we have the fire on low flame,
and our thinking caps are working well,
thanx to us all....  

I have a poem in Open....that I would like
to have looked at, commented on regarding
the meter,  the content within the verses,
etc...

Can it be in Open and CA at the same time??

Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


61 posted 02-08-2004 10:27 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

that one I cannot answer as I am not a power to be but rather a fly in the ointment.
Can't know unless ya ask though.
If you post it in CA I won't tell anyone it is in another forum, so as long as it is kept a secret, I say go for it.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


62 posted 02-08-2004 11:06 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Yes, you can post it in CA. Both CA and the Workshop are intended as development tools. Presumably, you first post there and after perfecting the poem (as much as you can anyway) it would be logical to present it to the larger audience of Open. Quite often though they do get posted in Open or somewhere else first, then brought to CA for possible improvement or at least discussion.

Bring it on
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


63 posted 02-08-2004 12:31 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Yea, Magnus...I post in open, and when one really takes off and gets a lot of responses, I bite the bullet and let Pete and the others have a whack at it.  I need to learn to go in reverse sometimes!  

Tim, you've yet to be a fly in my ointment.  Thanks for such sound thoughts!

Brad? You, too!!
 
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