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Passions in Poetry

Critique

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Tim
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since 06-08-99
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25 posted 02-07-2004 12:55 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

For art and science cannot exist but in minutely organized particulars-  Blake

I have a daughter who is smarter than the person who invented whipped cream. (she took after her mama)  played the clarinet.  First chair, private lessons, state band, went to the big city to play in their youth symphony, music scholarship, perfect fundamentals.  Went on to medical school, became a doctor and hasn't played her clarinet for years.
She plays music without flaw playing with precision, but never played for the joy of playing; she played to perfect her skills.  Is she is a musician?  
I on the other hand would die ( well, maybe not die, but would give up whipped cream) to be able to play an instrument.  tone death to an absolute.  In the second grade my teacher took me aside and said Tim, why don't you just mouth the words and don't sing.  I have not sang in public since that day.  But do I love to sing and drive my wife crazy with my singing.  Am I a musician?
Neither of us will great musicians for different reasons.  I will never be a competent musician.  I will always be a terrible musician.  She will always play immeasurably better than I ever possible will be able.

Art is heart, but without the particulars, you may well have a wife who tells you to shut up, but what the hey, I keep singing anyway.


Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


26 posted 02-07-2004 02:59 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ah, but are you a poet?


Magnus
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27 posted 02-07-2004 09:29 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Brad,  grinning at your question...I can say
without question that he is indeed a poet.
And, for the record,  I too can't sing worth
a hoot!!

Good Morning to you both.
Tim
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since 06-08-99
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28 posted 02-07-2004 09:40 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Yes, just a poor one.  But is it an offense not to be great?  

Does it make a difference if weakness is not based upon lack of effort?

If the goal is not greatness, then what criteria should be employed?

Is not writing like most things in life, a balancing test? The question is, where do you put the fulcrum?

Does everyone hear the same poem?
Brad
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29 posted 02-07-2004 09:44 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

While I certainly appreciate the levity, Magnus, you missed the point.

Are you a poet?
Magnus
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30 posted 02-07-2004 09:49 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Ahhh,  the questions that we ask ourselves
of ourselves and what we perceive that we
are capable of being...

I know them well....greatness...hmmmm,  no
I don't feel that greatness will ever be a
shadow cast from the sun shining over my
withered bones...  I do believe that there
are those that have natural ability that
gives them an edge,  though I believe very
strongly that to be a great,  truly a great
poet,  one must know much of the arts,  of
language,  of poetic form, etc.....and few
take the time that is needed to ever get
to that point.  After about fifty-seven
guhzillion words being written....it takes
a lot to write something that is both unique
as well as great....  JMHO...  no more, no
less....Tim....you are good at what you do.
Are any of us great poets?  Probably not.
Could we be?  I think so...but my belief is
that it would require a huge amount of work
and discipline to get there...plus...a
degree of self confidence that I know I
don't possess.....
Magnus
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31 posted 02-07-2004 09:53 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Brad...to answer your question outright,
yes....I am a poet...on a scale....from one
to ten....about a five....but yes,  I am a
poet....If you want me to get out of this,
just let me know....
Brad
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32 posted 02-07-2004 09:53 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yes, Tim. So why is it wrong to discuss the questions you've asked?
Magnus
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33 posted 02-07-2004 09:58 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

You guys have fun....
Brad
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34 posted 02-07-2004 10:00 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Magnus, I very much appreciate the time you've put into this thread. I do not want you to stop, I want you to think. I want everybody to think.

Is that really condescending?
Magnus
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35 posted 02-07-2004 10:08 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Thanx Brad...I guess that I have just come
into this too late to understand in black
and white what the real question is?   Think?  Oh boy,  do that often, frequently..
Have assessed my abilities many times...
I have to agree with one thought...where is
the fulcrum that one uses to guage where
they are poetically?  When does one consider
themselves to be "a poet"...???

Does that make sense?  
Tim
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since 06-08-99
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36 posted 02-07-2004 10:17 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Unfortunately, I will be guilty of the same offense as was Magnus. My initial reaction to Brad's last post was to smile.

And Magnus, I do appreciate the input as unfortunately the thread in my opinion was becoming a one man show and I was beginning to feel like I was talking to myself with Brad providing the links to continue.

The purpose of my questions was to draw others out and maybe bring in some input from others.  I received a significant portion of my education in that fashion and somehow over the years I have grown to strongly suspect Brad employs the same method on the other side of the lecturn.

So please do not feel in anyway you need to leave as your input carries as much or more weight than my mutterings and I would rather hear from others than from myself. (I have a tendency to bore myself if truth be known)



Tim
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37 posted 02-07-2004 10:21 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

In a way, that is the point Magnus, there is no answer set in concrete and not trying to be obtuse, sometimes defining the question is equally as difficult as providing an answer.
Magnus
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38 posted 02-07-2004 10:25 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Tim,  thanx...I have not felt that I should
leave,  just that perhaps I am out in left
field somewhere...and the ball is going over
to right field.  I have never been one to
go into lengthy discussions,  sort of quiet
and just sit back and "listen", so to speak.

I thought I could add to this somewhat with
my own insight, feelings...My only problem
is that I don't think I was sure of what the
question really was and perhaps even WHY was
the question as it was...(I have not read
all of the remarks within this thread)...
SO,  I am sort of coming into the game late
and catching up.  I think Brad has some
valid thoughts to ponder...and I do believe
WE are....

Thanx...

Barry

It still goes back to a basic question.  What does one guage by?  And no,  I am
in no position to be condescending.  Nor
will I be.  My position on the pedestal is
not that high...Who is?  Perhaps none of
us....
Brad
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39 posted 02-07-2004 10:27 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Magnus,

Of course you make sense. What I'm trying to do is show, not tell, why critique makes sense.
Magnus
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40 posted 02-07-2004 10:31 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Now I understand...and yes,  that is a tough
one....I believe critique makes a great deal
of sense.  For I believe there are many who
are called poets that have a great deal to
learn about poetry...  Problem is,  will they
open their minds enough to allow the learning
process to take place....

Wouldn't it be great if we all had a mentor,
a truly learned one...who we would sit and
listen to,  allow them to feed us that which
we need to learn more of this "art"...

Yeah,  critique is a tough one....and I am
also of the opinion that using the internet
as a vehicle for critique sometimes hinders
as much as it aids....  It is so black and
white,  hard to temper...

Ok,  I'm here....I think?
Tim
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Posts 1801


41 posted 02-07-2004 10:37 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Magnus, in the Socratic method you make the other person come to the conclusion by facing the questions you ask.
That is all Brad is trying to do, and he is very adept at it.
Just don't read to much into the questions and make it all too metaphysical.
In simplest terms, critique is necessary as well as a poet's soul.
If the weakness of your poetry from a technical standpoint is so poor it detracts from what you are trying to say, then you have failed as a poet.
If you write a technically brilliant poem but two days later the person has no remembrance of you poem as it said nothing worthwhile, then you have failed as a poet.
The answer is we should all write with technical brilliance with the soul of Byron.
How do you get there?

Just saw your post, yep, I think you got it.
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


42 posted 02-07-2004 10:39 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
it still goes back to a basic question.  What does one guage by?  And no,  I am
in no position to be condescending.  Nor
will I be.  My position on the pedestal is
not that high...Who is?  Perhaps none of
us....


This is where it begins. This is where we begin to ask the right questions.
Magnus
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43 posted 02-07-2004 10:40 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

Also,  DO THEY WANT to learn?  Will they
allow their skin to soften enough to absorb
that which is given them by those who care
enough to provide that critique?  So many of
us, me included,  are afraid to critique.
Why?  Lack of comfort in what is the correct
answer...  Afraid to take that step,  and
not be condescending....

Just thinkin'
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


44 posted 02-07-2004 10:45 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

got to run off to work to get ready for a big trial Monday, but Magnus, now you have got the idea and have asked some good questions.
It doesn't matter how intelligent you are or how proficient you are at poetry, or for that matter any endeavor. Getting past that little thing called ego and to accept criticism in a proper fashion is a problem every person faces no matter what they say to the contrary.
have a good un.
Magnus
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45 posted 02-07-2004 10:50 AM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

And I agree with a very good point....IF
one can write technically correct a poem
and it does not stick in the craw of the
reader,  lingering there for some time...
Bringing emotions from them....THEN....
they have failed in being able to write a
great poem....

Then you have the basic problem that we go
back to....will they allow someone to say,
"yanno....IF perhaps you had done this..
then it would have....  which takes us
back to WHO can make that determination?
Who feels confident enough to step up to
the plate and offer an opinion....NOT knowing
whether the writer will take offense, be
hurt by the criticism...

Which leads you back to CA....if you step
inside the door,  you should be prepared to
listen,  to learn....CA does not make us a
great poet....it is only a vehicle that helps
us take one small step....

You will rarely find me in CA...simply 'cause
I lack technical expertise,  lack the learnings
of many years of writing and listening.  
But there are poets here at PIP that can
benefit others...if the students will just
open their ears,  go get the right tools
and try to learn.  

Brad,  you are pushing the right buttons,
thanx.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


46 posted 02-07-2004 10:56 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Of course, we shouldn't go the other way.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


47 posted 02-07-2004 11:15 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim is right. Magnus, you are of course welcom at CA. I'm not what I used to be but let it happen (Pete runs it now, and he runs it well), let it hapen. I will read your poetry.
2writeis2be
Junior Member
since 01-11-2004
Posts 42
Live in London, but from TX


48 posted 02-07-2004 11:16 AM       View Profile for 2writeis2be   Email 2writeis2be   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for 2writeis2be

Yeah, poetry is an art. There is no need to use all that meter,  alliteration etc., because if you're a good writer and have feelings inside your head, you'll create a decent poem. That's basically all there is to it...very simple and yet alot of people make poetry out to be complex. The thing is that each person makes poetry out differently and each poem is portrayed uniquely in each mind.

"Why don't you try and learn from my mistakes? It takes half a lifetime to learn from your own."

Brad
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Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


49 posted 02-07-2004 11:48 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
There is no need to use all that meter,  alliteration etc., because if you're a good writer and have feelings inside your head, you'll create a decent poem. That's basically all there is to it...very simple and yet alot of people make poetry out to be complex. The thing is that each person makes poetry out differently and each poem is portrayed uniquely in each mind.


This is a mistake. You're confusing a description of a poem with a prescription.

 
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