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Passions in Poetry

Will Bush be re-elected?

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Ron
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75 posted 01-16-2004 07:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Mike, your Venezuelans are just as likely to live in Miami or Dallas as in Valenzuela. You're describing ignorance, not geographics. How much time do you spend in D.C.? In New York? Maybe you should avoid criticizing Clinton in the future, since you obviously have no direct knowledge of anything pertinent. You're just reading the same headlines and reports that are available anywhere in the world. By your logic, your interpretation of those reports is necessarily blurred by distance and therefore less valid than the opinions of someone who lives closer.

I suspect what you're really trying to say is that there's a cultural slant inherent in any interpretation of the news. And you're absolutely right. But that cultural slant isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor does it make anyone's opinion invalid. You'll find much the same differences in cultural slant between metropolitan Florida and rural Michigan, between Gary, Indiana, and New Orleans. Diversity and distance off adds perspective, a counter to the all too common inability to "see the forest for the trees" phenomenon. When the only opinions about the White House that matter are those shaped by close proximity to the White House, we'll all be wading through a very deep pile of serious trouble.

Ignorance should indeed be fought, not by discounting it, but through education. And to assume ignorance based on nationality is, well I'm sorry, but that's just plain ignorant. Or a really, really easy way to avoid countering the issues being raised.


Brad
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76 posted 01-16-2004 07:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Why shouldn't Bush be reelected? Without going through an endless list, I'll try to look at three points, I hope, quickly:

1. Most people, perhaps, would regard the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as successes and that's fair enough. But those of us who harbored reservations or a more nuanced approach to these events, have always been worried about what happens after we win. Fukuyama, here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/01/fukuyama.htm

makes the claim that much of what is going on is the result of an administration unwilling to come to terms with its own ambitions.

Other factors include the national debt and constitutional problems, but it seems fairly clear that the Bush administration is not particularly adept at handling, well, administration. I'll add some stuff later concerning the recent Supreme Court issues and the IMF censure.  

2. Which leads us to the issue of image. Many have pointed out to me that they see Bush as tough talking, no-nonsense kind of guy and that's what they like. Few of these same people, however, seemed to have noticed the constant backpedaling that goes on, must necessarily go on, in order to play the game of politics. As I write this, Colin Powell has an essay in "Foreign Affairs" arguing that the Bush administration is not trying to 'go it alone' but to actively involve other nations in their goals. In principle, I see nothing wrong with this type of manuevering, but what it shows is that the Bush administration is as political as they come.

So, are people being duped?

Two more quick points: First, the Supreme Court is going to listen to arguments concerning constitutional infringements by this administration and, while we don't know the outcome of this, it at least shows concern for, or the lack of concern from, this administration's view of the constitution. Second, I think image is important. A good image is extremely useful in getting the nuts and bolts kind of cooperation to get what you want done done. Bush just doesn't seem very good at doing this. Proof? Well, Talk to a non-American and see what they say (No, it is not all rabid hate, but most people I've talked to don't see him as particularly competent).

A quick example of this is Rumsfield's comment concerning British involvement in Iraq. It is factually true that we didn't 'need' the British in order to topple the regime, but politically what is the point of making such a statement? Is it stupid or xenophobic? I simply don't see a positive spin here.

Krugman, Herbert, here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/16/opinion/16KRUG.html
http://nytimes.com/2004/01/16/opinion/16HERB.html

and Kinsley (not here) have described this administration as radical. I may have to go into more detail later on this, but suffice to say is that this administration is unpredictable. The rest of the world simply doesn't know what it's going to do next.

3. A minor point but truly bizarre:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093466/

Why in the world would the first lady lie about a bad poem? Since when did being stupid become a positive point for being the leader of the most powerful country in the world?


Balladeer
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77 posted 01-16-2004 07:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I would NEVER assume ignorance based on nationality nor did I say that. My comments to Severn should make that clear. I will say, however, that access to information is an important factor in determining how accurate statements can be. Those campesinos in Venezuela, for example, had much less access to information as do many people in many areas. They have their local newspaper, local news station and little else. At any rate that is still not the point, which you seem to have missed. My problem was not with opinions...it was with criticisms spoken as facts from someone not able, or willing, to research the topic in question enough to give validity to the smear.
Balladeer
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78 posted 01-16-2004 08:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

One thing about Brad, he does research his comments and that's an admirable trait.

As far as your last question is concerned......about 12 years ago
Sunshine
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79 posted 01-16-2004 08:27 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I'm beginning to wonder why in the world I ever asked "HEY"...mea culpa!  Especially during an election year.

Wait a minute....

Maybe not.

At least we know where we all stand as a poetical, political, society....

and you know what?

I see this.

We may all stand for different things, and different people, but all in all?  When we are needing one another?  Doggone, but we come together really well.

[And this comment, I am sure, will fall by the wayside, says the person who has been called PollyAnna and the one who wears rose colored glasses...]
Denise
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80 posted 01-16-2004 10:24 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad,

Fukuyama makes some good points. We do need to invest the time, manpower, and money needed to enable these nations to one day stand on their own. Nothing less is acceptable, in my opinion. If we don't want to get involved to that degree, then we shouldn't get involved at all. But not getting involved at all is something that we can't afford either when our national security may be on the line.

I don't think most people are being duped. Politicians are political. I'm sure most folks realize that. I don't really see a necessary contradiction with one being political and being a strong leader at the same time. We need someone at this point in history to take a firm stand against terrorism. I think Bush fills that need despite his shortcomings in other areas (the expansion of Medicare and the illegal alien issue for example). I think all possible issues of our nation considered, the threat of terrorism and how our leaders plan on protecting us as much as is possible, is at the top of the list for most Americans. And I think in Bush they see someone who has the intestinal fortitude to meet that threat head-on. For that reason alone I think he will be re-elected, and I think he should be.

Now if there were an opponent who was strong on defense and the terrorism issue who was also strong on sealing our borders and against the 'socialization' of our society through big-government programs (I firmly believe that charity should be in the private domain, not a function of the state) then they would get my vote. But I haven't come across that option to date.

As for the Constitution, much of its spirit was abandoned ages ago, in my opinion. I would be more surprised to hear of leaders actually upholding it rather than hearing accusations of it being violated.

As for Laura attributing that poem to her husband, why I think that's grounds for divorce!

Balladeer,

ROTL

...about 12 years ago...good one!

Karilea,

Yes, we do come together really well, don't we? That's what really matters!

Aenimal
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81 posted 01-17-2004 03:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

in the same way you could possibly say the same to me for getting involved with criticism and baseless accusations over interior situations in your country. The appropriate remark is "Mind your own business."

and

It would be like me coming into your house and making comments about your maiden Aunt Millie, or your drunken cousin Sylvester, or the Crazy butler Jeeves... It is just not my business.

The first doesn't surprise me, it's quite typical considering. With the internet offering unlimited access to information from within and without the United States I find it hard to believe that an intelligent person is unable to formulate their own opinion simply because they're not within your borders. There are foreign political analysts who do this for a living but I guess they should mind their own business as well.

As for the second comment, I'm stunned considering the source. It borders on racism. Had you said "eating fried chicken and watermelon" to an african american member you'd have been labeled a racist and strung. But you're comments are no less offensive. It's the kind of stereotypical garbage that should be edited and I know Gemma deserves an apology for that.
Wind
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82 posted 01-17-2004 04:15 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

I should stay quiet, but I agree with Raph's comment entirely. I won't get into it any more than that for fear of losing control because I'm sure to get edited.

Not A Poet
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83 posted 01-17-2004 05:08 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Those gaining their knowledge and worldview from the internet need to be very cautious and skeptical
Ron
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84 posted 01-17-2004 07:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Pete, those gaining their knowledge and worldview from any single source or medium should be equally cautious. Rumor has it that Fox news, in sufficiently high dosages, can lead to physical brain damage. That's not the point. The point is, if you disagree with someone's knowledge and worldview, you address your differences with them, you don't just dismiss the person because of nationality.
Balladeer
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85 posted 01-17-2004 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, let me say (for about the 4th time, I think) I would dismiss no one's opinion, no matter where they are from. I would, however, dismiss their name-calling and factless branding in an insulting manner, moreso if they are from other countries.

As Local Rebel so adroitly pointed out, "He may be an idiot, but he's my idiot."
Not A Poet
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86 posted 01-17-2004 10:49 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Ron, on your first point, you are conspicuously correct. Unfortunately, all availabel source of information are biased, one way or another. On your second point, you are probably at least partially right (see the above evaluation of all sources). But without doubt, getting all your information for "the other sources" will not only cause brain damage but probably will lead to complete stupidity. At least Fox does present "the other side" which the other networks steadfastly refuse to even consider. For that, they have my undying thanks.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Ringo
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87 posted 01-17-2004 11:22 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Raph- That statement is racist, how???? Aunt Millie could be from Peterborough, or Alabama, or Melbourne...
Sylvester could be from any of the above places as well...
As far as Jeeves... that is a "standard" name for butlers in comedy, literary works, or anything else... as a matter of fact, there is a search engine, as I am sure you are aware, "ask jeeves"....
Again, I ask... where is the racism?

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Aenimal
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88 posted 01-18-2004 02:20 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I said it borders on racism, but it is definitely and most obviously stereotypical. You could have chosen any number of images or metaphors but you chose the quintessential/comic view of a british family while replying to a Briton.

Have the decency to admit you've made an error in judgement, or at the very least offer Gemma an apology for remarks that could be construed as offensive. Whether they were meant to be or not, they are.
Aenimal
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89 posted 01-18-2004 02:26 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Pete American newspapers,major networks,PBS and even news shows like 60 minutes have websites on the net. I'm not talking about random geocities web pages dedicated to the topics. I'm talking about the same 'respectable' sources americans get their news from.
*Belabebeautiful*
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90 posted 01-18-2004 02:33 AM       View Profile for *Belabebeautiful*   Email *Belabebeautiful*   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for *Belabebeautiful*

wow that was a lot of reading! As for my own personally opinion I do hope that Bush gets re-elected and I actually get to Vote for the first time this year(yay!) and I plan on voting for him. While reading I heard some very valid points and some very weak ones. In dealing with things like politics I think that one is intitled to there own opinion but not without fact to back it up. Nothing bothers me more than an ignorance on these type of issues. I would like to restate for the record that Gov. Bush had Nothing to do with Pres. Bush getting elected! I should also probably state that I am a very strong republican though I do tend to lean democratic on a few issues and I always try to find merit in the opposing parties point of view and lately watching the democrates in their campains I would have to say that I would vote for Bush for the sole purpose that the democratic party this year has not presented to me anything of value that I would consider better than what I already have(meaning Bush)and quite frankly they seem a bit "wishy-washy" in their arguments. This next piece being directed to Noah, I really enjoy your work and you seem sincerly sweet and a wonderfull loving person but no matter how much I twist and turn I cannot see things from your point of view and have been abstaining myself from getting angered my what you have said about my president by the simple fact that I believe very strongly in freedom of speech.

True, that some of Bushes dicisions I have disagreed with and I believe that he has made some mistakes but so has every president. The thing that I think really ties my to Bush in the end is the fact that he has stuck by his word, in my view of course. Whether what he said he was going to do was good or bad he stuck with it and followed through and I respect that in any person greatly and I find it a VERY admirable quality in any high status figure in this country since there are so few of them anymore. I will also be the first to admit that I do not agree with him on several of the issues that he has adressed in the past few years but yet another thing that grabbed me and has held me steadfastly to him is that I watched a live television broadcast of him at ground zero on the 6th month or year aniversary of 9/11, I can't remember which, and he went around that ring of people and he reached out to each of them and huged wifes and sons that were missing there lost spouses and parents he held children and talked to familys. Three times they tried to start the actual ceremony and get him up on stage and three times he ignored him untill he had gotten through that intire circle of people. That touched me very profoundly because that showed me that he cares about the people in this country. He cares about our feelings and our wellfare and that to me is on the top of my list of things that a president should care for, his people. So whether his dicisions have been wrong or right or whether he is an "evil tyrant" or just a good normal man that makes some mistakes, I sincerely hope that he gets re-elected because I know that he cares about me and I know that no matter the damage he will make sure his people are safe.
   But this is just my view I really don't like politics and keep up to date on them just for the simple reason that I care about this country. In saying that I hope that if Bush does not get re-elected that someone who cares about OUR welfare will because we really truly are blessed to live here in this beautiful country no matter what the evils that take place here it seems to me its a lot better than any place else.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
~Live and Laugh~


Because of you I laugh a little harder, smile a little more, and cry a little less
~Bella~
Severn
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91 posted 01-18-2004 04:02 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Bela....I think most people think their home country is 'a lot better than any place else.'

I know I do

Mikey Man...I understand where you're coming from on this...the thing is....do you see all derogatory comments toward a US president (past or present) as factless branding? Or does there need to be an insulting manner attached? It just seems to me that if a person - from any country - has a negative opinion toward a president it may well come out sounding insulting...

you know what I mean?

How would a person say 'I think the government of  _____ is doing a crap job' in a way that would be considered positive by the denizens of that country? Furthermore, how would that person then indicate that their opinion was more than factless branding, if there was a determination to believe otherwise? Another

So if I say - I think the Bush administration made an error of judgement by going against the will of the UN, despite the result of removing a dangerous tyrant. I also feel there needs to be more of an emphasis toward rebuilding the infrastructure of a ruined nation (yes yes, soldiers from many nations (even NZers) are over there attempting just that, I know). I also feel that the reason of finding WMD was grossly exaggerated as a motivation.

Therefore, having said the above - I don't particularly like the Bush administration, and feel it is weak. Add the whole mission to Mars nonsense in election year and the whole thing starts to look preeeeeeeetty bad to me.

Is this factless branding? It's not delivered in an insulting manner - but is there really any difference to you when it comes down to it?

K


Ron
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92 posted 01-18-2004 06:45 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
moreso if they are from other countries.

What's truly frightening, Mike, is that you don't see a problem with that.
Balladeer
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93 posted 01-18-2004 07:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hi, there, Severn!

No, I don't see all derrogatory comments factless branding at all and I certainly feel anyone has the right to any opinion. Everything you said in your reply was right on in my book. You can dislike him as a person if you like, his administration, his policies or whatever and I will certainly respect your thoughts, whether I agree with them or not.

What pushed my button and what I was referring to were the comments like And do u think this time he'll be elected fairly or will he need his brother to get him out of the crap again?
That is just a ridiculous statement, with no base, intended to be said for insult only. I cannot imagine you saying something like that, for example.

People will see, and believe , what they want. There are those on this thread who here, or on other threads have called Bush a warmonger for going into Iraq. Have there been any comments to all of the examples I posted of the Democratic leaders certainties of wmd's and call to the President (Clinton) to go into Iraq? Any comments on Denise's examples or Ringos or any others? Not a one - basically because they are a matter of record and irrefutable....so they are ignored while the people still scream warmonger. Ok, they can do that - but I'm certainly not going to take them seriously or validate whatever points they are trying to make. Anyway, the pointless insults are what tweak me. If I were to say, "Had Princess Diana not turned into a drunk, maybe she wouldn't have been out that night carousing". A dumb statement, for sure, and I would expect anyone who respects her to take offense.

I do the same...
inot2B
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94 posted 01-18-2004 02:51 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

The orginal question, Will Bush be re-elected? I would like to answer. Yes, Bush will be reelected. Yes, I will vote for him, because I feel he is the best choice. No, I don't agree with everything he stands for, but I do agree with more of his policies than anyone else. I don't care what other people think of him, they're not going to change my mind or take up my time by arguing with them. Thank God & America we can vote for anyone we feel inclined to.
Brad
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95 posted 01-18-2004 03:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040202&s=borosage
Balladeer
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96 posted 01-18-2004 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! The Nation, Brad? That's what you come up with to present an unbiased opinion of Bush? You've been gone way too long....
Brad
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97 posted 01-18-2004 04:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

When did I ever say I was presenting unbiased material?

Nevertheless, if the numbers are wrong, it shouldn't be too difficult to find stuff to counter it.

Does Bush have the worst job record of any president since the Great Depression?

Do Americans pay more for subscription medicine than any other country's citizens?

Are chemical plants at risk of a terrorist attack?

The main point is that there is a gap between what Bush is saying and actual policy.

If this is so, what are people agreeing with when they say they mostly agree with Bush?


inot2B
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98 posted 01-18-2004 05:11 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

How can one person "Bush" be blamed for all the atrocities of this War? He is just one man who is guided with the help of Congress. A group of people who were voted in by the people. So if you don't like the President, then vote for someone else. Go out on the campaign trail and help your candidate. Tell how he/she would run this country, but do remember they will also have Congress guiding them.
Not A Poet
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99 posted 01-18-2004 05:25 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

If Clark is elected he will personally guarantee that there are no more terrorist attacks Give us credit for some sense!

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

 
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