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Passions in Poetry

Will Bush be re-elected?

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Balladeer
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50 posted 01-15-2004 04:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, I gave you many factual examples -and direct quotes - from the top Republican leaders stating that they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt wmd's existed...long before Bush was in office. Your reply was..

True about some of the info you've shared, but

Nine quick words and then off to the races. Obviously facts that go against your belief are dismissed in your mind and you change the subject as quickly as possible. That's ok. Many people do that. Just recognize that your prejudices have no chance of changing no matter what. You can speak for yourself but, as Karilea says, you really can't speak for others. You can't say "most people" because you don't know most people. None of us do. Perhaps the people you associate with feel the same way but it is normal to associate with people who share commom beliefs. You will never criticize the Democrats who pushed for the invasion of Iraq with the vigor you attack Bush and I'm sure you know that.....and that's your right. I'm pretty sure I'm not changing, either  

So you vote for whoever opposses Bush and I'll vote for Bush and say a prayer that your chad hangs
Ringo
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51 posted 01-15-2004 06:03 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

There are too many who feel desperate and vulnerable right now, and seeing such a polarized nation, I believe one should know pretty well that Bush is a pretty unsatisfactory peoples president!

Noah, there will ALWAYS be too many people who feel desperate and vulnerable. During the Kennedy White House (referred to as Camelot), there were people who were desperate and vulnerable. When Truman was President, People were desperate and vulnerable. During LBJ's "Great Society" people were desperate and vulnerable. During the Reagan White House, when the economy did a complete turn around from the Carter White House, People were deserate and vulnerable. It is an unfortunate, and irreversible fact of life. There is NOTHING that can be done to stop this from happening. At least in my opinion. As long as there are 20 pople in the world someone is going to be deserate and vulnerable.

As for the fact that President Bush being an "unsatisfactory people's president", please give us your definition of "satisfactory". Would it be an increase in the economy at a record pace for 9 months? Would it be housing starts, and sales increasing at a record rate, so that the economy grows as a result? Would it be the fact that most of the new homes are being bought be low-middle to middle income families (I don't have the actual statistics at hand, however, if I were to buldoze my desk, I could find the report for you.)? How about having unemployment drop steadily for a period of 6 months at rates faster than even the experts predicted? Maybe having an increase in education spending (even though more money has NEVER helped before) would make someone a satisfactory "people's" president.

All of these things happened within the last year, which would prevent them from being a hold-over from the Clinton era. I do realize, and I am willing to accept that president Clinton ALSO did good things for the economy. He also threw more money at the education system, and it is still as screwed up as it was before. He also brought the subject of socialized medicine to argument (and would have had my support except for a few "glitches" that I saw).

All of these would make him a good "people's president". HOWEVER...
He also taught our children that it was acceptable to practice the ancient art of infidelity. He also taught our kids that lying under oath was an acceptable way of conducting yourself. He also did many other things that were not something a "people's president" would do.

I am not bringing up these particular events to bash president Clinton. I have already noted that I thought he did many good things for the country. I only use thses examples as they are where this thread goes most often (myself included).
Other presidents have also done good things and rotten things within the scope of their administration. President Bush v1.0 PROMISED to end the increasing taxes... and then within the space of a year and a half signed the largest tax increase in history. President Reagan was caught up in the Iran-Contra hearings, and proved to the kids of America that it was OK to do something illegal, and then not accept responsibility for your actions by pinning the entire event on the shoulders of a man who has "conveniently died just 2 weeks before.

Nixon... well, that's all that needs to be said... or is it? While he was, and still is villified for Watergate, he also ended American involvement in the last "unpopular" armed conflict. He improved Russo-American relations. He re-opened trade relations with China. He ended the draft, he started the EPA, he brokered the first nucear arms treaty, he eased tensions in the Middle East... and many other things...

The point of my rambling, Noah, (and thank you for indulging me), is that NO President can be revered as a "People's President" or cursed for being the worst thing for this nation. It took me many years of growing up (as an adult) to realize that. EVERY man who sits in the Oval Office plants his backside in that chair claiming that he is going to be the "People's President" and do the best job any one has ever seen... and as long as that chair is being occupied by anyone who cannot claim divinity status, he (or she) is going to fail. So no, Noah, he is an unsatisfactory people's president... then again, so is ever other president to have been elected.

Oh, and Noah... To comment on a point that you made in an earlier post about Kennedy being great. President Kennedy never got the chance to be either great, or horrific. He was in office for just over a year and a half, and during his tour of duty, he got us into the Vietnam conflict, (although LBJ is responsible for that going sour), He got caught with his hand in Cuba's cookie jar, he committed MASS infidelity in the White House (and Oval Office), was suspected of having Marylin Monroe killed, and many other things that he would have been slammed for, had his brother not been the one responsible for investigating him, and bring that information to the public's attention.

And I will be signing copies of this novel at a book store near you  


Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.
Denise
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52 posted 01-15-2004 07:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's a portion of a commentary by Hal Lindsey that is pertinent to our discussion:

Kennedy, like most Democrats, suffers from a strange malady best described as "ASM – Awful Short Memory – disease."

In his speech, Kennedy praised former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, whose just-released book said Bush had been planning for a regime change in Iraq since shortly after taking office.

This was another clear symptom of a severe attack of "ASM disease." Congress actually passed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998 – when President Clinton was in office – which made regime change in Iraq a matter of public law. But then who bothers to remember such details?

Public Law 105-338 says, "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

Teddy Kennedy voted for it, and Bill Clinton signed it. If Bush hadn't had plans in place for such an eventuality, he would be guilty of ignoring the will of the Congress and American people.

Regardless, Kennedy called the invasion of Iraq "a war of choice, not of necessity." He laid out what he called a timeline of the "drumbeat to war" that made America "a lesser and less respected land."

"ASM disease" is actually a blessing for the Democrats. Even though they pass laws and express strong opinions about certain issues, they can later denounce them when they become unpopular or politically expedient. Of course, the fact that most Americans are afflicted with this same dread disease makes such adroit maneuvers possible.

And armed with "righteous indignation" at the Republican implementation of such "lunatic policies" (for which, thanks to "ASM," the Democrats have no culpability), they can scream at them for wantonly attacking Iraq without authorization.

"ASM" provides other benefits, too. Since Democrats can focus such "righteous wrath" on the Republican administration for starting an unjust war, they can also draw attention away from the incredibly astounding benefits that have resulted from the defeat of Iraq:

Libya has renounced terrorism, given up its weapons of mass destruction and invited the United States to send in inspectors.

Iran has agreed to nuclear inspections, and the ruling mullahs there are barely hanging on to power.

Afghanistan is preparing to elect a government and Pakistan and India are seeking a way to end their conflict over Kashmir.

Syria is even running scared and making overtures to negotiate with Israel for peace.

But by far the most revealing line of Kennedy's speech was this one:

The administration has broken faith with the American people, aided and abetted by a congressional majority willing to pursue ideology at any price, even the price of distorting the truth.

This shows that he has reached the extreme stages of the dread disease of "ASM" – or else he couldn't have made this statement with a straight face.

It reminded me of that other great Kennedy quote, from 1973, just four years after the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in Chappaquidick. He asked, "Do we operate under a system of equal justice under law? Or is there one system for the average citizen and another for the high and mighty?" Only "ASM" can account for such hypocritical audacity.

And it would seem that Kennedy has shown symptoms of "ASM disease" from his early youth.

If Bush was lying about the reasons for war, using it as a political tool for re-election, then what was the motive behind comments made in 1998 by Clinton's secretary of State, Madeline Albright? She gravely warned:

Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed.

Or House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi's motives when she said in 1998:

As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

What about Clinton's secretary of Defense, Bill Cohen, who said in April 2003:

I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons ... I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out.

WOW! "ASM disease" makes anything possible. It's a real killer.

Complete article can be read at the link below:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36618

Denise
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53 posted 01-15-2004 07:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's another commentary, this one by William Rusher entitled "Who's Lying?":
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36509
Brad
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54 posted 01-15-2004 08:19 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

George Bush said:

"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who are probably read the news themselves."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 21, 2003
Mistletoe Angel
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55 posted 01-15-2004 09:11 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



I'm sorry, but I don't feel like talking anymore here. I'll let you carry on about your thoughts and opinions on whatever, but I've certainly come to realize now The Alley just isn't my place. Not where I actually believe I'm being accused as an evasive, waffling hypocritical young man with "awful short memory".



Personally I feel this is just why so many young people like myself feel crushed and afraid to discuss their views and feelings. It's not my fault I read books in high schools from faulty historians who discussed history and their opinons of figures as they'd like. Forgive me if I may seem quite melodramatic, but I truly felt somewhat insulted here and just can't play that kind of hardball. Not my fault I'm in the early stages of my English major and have yet to develop the basis of critical thinking skills.

I shall go quietly in peace and stick to the poetry I do best, but I just cannot take this kind of pressure here. I just get emotional too easy. I'll gladly leave this to those who can relate to others who have more experience and I will be the freelance artist on the street corner enacting my feelings and visions. Can't go wrong there!

Peace to all!



Sincerely,
Noah Eaton



"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Brad
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56 posted 01-15-2004 09:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Noah,

I'm insulted by your being insulted. (In a nice way of course )

With friends like these . . .
Balladeer
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57 posted 01-15-2004 09:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, I can assure you there was no intention to "gang up" on you. We were simply presenting opposing viewpoints which is what the Alley is for. We all recognize you for the kind person you are and I have little doubt that whatever you decide to do with your life, you will be successful because you have a passion for life. Peace to you....

...and, regardless of Brad's small insinuations, we ARE your friends. COunt on it...
Mistletoe Angel
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58 posted 01-15-2004 11:33 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel



Do not get me wrong, what's been said does not ruin the friendship that I share with you all. I love you all very much and even if I disagree with a certain number of things you say, somehow resent some specific words directed my way, none such words can break the utmost warmth I feel from your artistic, colorful and graceful hearts, as I believe we are all brothers and sisters of God and the common bond must not be broken, so I will move on, forgive the tears I've dispensed out of anxiety, frustration and fear, and continue to delightfully spread the living word of friendship and grace among you, my siblings in heart!



Though I still simply feel I do not quite belong in this league of discussion, experiencing this world fewer years and having not witnessing those previous events you have witnessed which puts me on a whole different page, and though I do take certain words, which sometimes sound like accusations, to heart, know that it is just me quite a lot. Think of me as a softy with passionate tendencies! Being overly sentimental over certain thoughts, I do not wish to baffle you, so I will leave this grand discussion clear.



Angel friendship hugs for all!

Love,
Noah Eaton


"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20
Ringo
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59 posted 01-16-2004 12:34 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Noah- I have to take issue with a few of your statements... and I believe you might be a bit suprised at which...
You said that you felt you were being accused of being an evasive, waffling, hypocritical, young man with an aweful short memory. Having re-read the post, I don't believe that was Denise's intention. She was, I think (only she can answer for sure), talking about the "leaders of the free world"... those whom we elect to run this insane asylum we call America. I have only been a member of Passions for 10 months or so, and I have read, with great interest, your thoughts on many subjects, and your views on your world. In 10 months, I have NEVEr seen you waver from what your thoughts have always been. You are so rock steady in your beliefs that I could almost perfectly predict what you were going to say in this issue. You? Waffle? I think not.
As far as reading the "faulty yearbooks" we all read the same books... it is our own prejudices and thoughts of reality, along with those whom we are being taught by, that determine how we understand exactly what that book was actually saying.
As for your critical thinking skill... It is true that you tend to speak with your heart more often than most of those of us who are far too jaded, however it is obvious that you are not just spouting some knee-jerk babble without having given your world some thought. And the fact taht you don't have the grey hair, wrinkles, and battle scars that many of the others here have, your thoughts and opinions are just as important and just as valuable as anyone elses... You are the one who is going to be running our nursing home one day.
And if it seems like you are bsing singled out in this discussion, then- looking back on the entire thread- it is because you are the only one who is really offering anything that could be considered as a minority opinion. Were it not for your passion, and your desire for us to see your position, this would be a thread of President Bush supporters, and a few soundbites by those who are not.
In short... I hope to see you here again.

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Craw
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60 posted 01-16-2004 04:31 AM       View Profile for Craw   Email Craw   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craw




There's a fair chance Tony Blair will be irreparably damaged at the beginning of February once the Hutton Enquiry reports. That would be a start, eh? Who knows? One day we might realise that liars shouldn't be leaders.
Sunshine
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61 posted 01-16-2004 08:28 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Noah, to clarify a point re: "waffling" - if you are picking out that point as an attack on you - that is not what I said.  My point was, that if you could give Bush your agenda, and found him to go along with it, then you might later accuse him of "waffling" should he heed your guidance.

No, you yourself stand very firm in your beliefs.  One thing I learned at your age, was that there was no way I was going to do much but listen to my elders [I did not have your verbal skills or passions - they were still maturing inside] and another lesson I learned, was not to make assumptions for the general populace.

So keep reading, and keeping growing.  
Denise
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62 posted 01-16-2004 09:35 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Noah, Ringo is right, I wasn't accusing you of having ASM, I just posted some commentary regarding the previous statements of our leaders, who obviously do, who are now attacking Bush, who is doing nothing more than following through with their previously stated positions.

If we can't honestly look at these things and see the obvious hypocrisy of it all, then how can we possibly hope to make informed decisions at the polls?

The game of politics is a dirty deceitful business and we have to shovel through a lot of bull (from both sides) to try to ascertain the truth of things, as much as is in our ability to do so.

Passion and feelings are fine, but absent our critical thinking we can be led astray. From my experience, most politicians play to our feelings and hope we leave our brains out of the equation. We can't let them have that kind of power over us. It is our duty as citizens to study the issues and to make informed decisions. And you don't need a Critical Thinking course to do it. What you do need is the desire to keep an open mind, a desire to study the issues, a willingness to hear all sides of any given issue, and the discipline to sit down and sort through it all to determine your own convictions.
Opeth
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63 posted 01-16-2004 09:57 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

~ Critical Thinking should be a standard subject matter to be taught in our nation's classrooms.

~ The point I am making here is that too many people (in my experiences) arrive to their political beliefs, views, etc., without understanding the "guts" of American politics - lacking political knowledge, but arrive to what they believe based on a their upbringing (subculture), and later as an adult, biased reporting and reading and understanding what their biased wants to hear, which stimulates and strengthens their subjective "train-of-thought."  The result? A firm belief in what is not true, but what certainly "feels" right.

~ The truth is that both the democrat and republican parties are much more alike than what the laymen believe. The main goal for both of these parties is to stay in power - the peoples' needs are at the very most a secondary goal.  And of course, the way to stay in power is to gain more and more constiuents, which special interest groups and clienteles are the constiuents most highly desired.

~ For certain, political candidates personally & emphatically support a variety of causes, however if there is a shift in the special interests of a party (clientele changes), these candidates will either have to change (waffle) their views or change party affiliation.

~ What does that mean? It means in a pragmatically and slow moving government, most elected members will waffle IF the special interests of party affiliatoin shifts and clienteles change.

~ This is why it is all too easy for people to line-up on one side or the other in the policial spectrum - 2 extremely powerful political parties, one on each end: A spectrum that expands when more controversial issues come into the forefront and contracts when controversy is at a minimum.

~ One party is neither worse nor better than the other. It doesn't really matter who is at the helm (the process is fixed so no maniacal leader could ever get elected into the higher offices at the very least). It is when the government NEEDS to act, due to controversial or nation-critical issues, when any meaningful and population-affecting changes will actually take place in our country.

~ Therefore, rest easy, even if your presidential candidate doesn't get elected. It is not the elected president whom will produce change, but the need for change itself.


"If this grand panorama before me is what you call God...then God is not dead."

gemjop
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64 posted 01-16-2004 11:03 AM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

I'm sitting here, having read throught the post, still enraged with a few of the first comments.

why should someone from another country be slated, and their viewpoint be attacked because they are from another country?

quite unbelievable. You could say what you want about tony blair and i wouldn't attack any of you saying "don't you think youve got other things to think about what with bush" why shouldnt he/she of expressed their opinions?

Why so defensive? So an english or other origins opinion is not valid?

and then you said sorry because you found out they were american, oh so their point is valid now!!!

How ironic that i've just taken an exam on prejudice, discrimination and sterotyping, and find it here.

You've made me feel quite unwelcome. I am intelligent enough to have my own opinions on this subject, and feel that my opinion is just as valid or relevant as any american persons. but would fear to voice any kind of opinion i had due to the fact that it has been clearly illustrated that i shouldnt have an opinion on president bush as i don't reside in his country!!

why do you assume that someone from another country would have less of a realistic idea of whats going on than someone who lives in america?

~I wanna live, I wanna give, I've been a miner for a heart of gold~  Neil Young

Balladeer
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65 posted 01-16-2004 12:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

gemjop, I certainly regret your being enraged by the comments here. As I stated, this was a throwback to threads previously posted here advising us exactly wht was so wrong with our country, how 9/11 was all our fault and even lambasting us for breaking away from Mother England in the first place. Any person from any country has to right to have and voice opinions over world events. When they begin to criticize what is happening with the interior of the country, however, basing their accusations on nothing but gossip, headlines and whoever is speaking the loudest, they are out of line. I would certainly not attempt to chastize Austrailia for the aborigine situation no more than I would stick my two cents in over pudding lumpiness in Picadilly Square because I would not be qualified to do so. Actual situations may be far different than what headlines, who are doing their best to sell papers, proclaim. When this person, who we mistakenly took for being English, made references to the Florida elections (with all the wrong facts) and the Latin citizenship situation then, yes, I would always say what I said, in the same way you could possibly say the same to me for getting involved with criticism and baseless accusations over interior situations in your country. The appropriate remark is "Mind your own business." World situations are, of course, different because we are all affected by world events and everyone's opinion carries equal weight.

I don't know if I've made this clear or not but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say....
Ringo
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66 posted 01-16-2004 01:05 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Gemma- As I was the first to make the statements that you are upset by, I am going to adress them (from my viewpoint, anyhow).
This entire thing with president Bush is a "family" fight... jsut as any contreversy within the Parliment or Royal family SHOULD be a "family fight" for Brittons. If one has a family member who is being atacked from within the family, one does not wish the neighbors dow the block offering their opinions, or getting involved in the discussion. A friend of mine who spent some time in the UK gets a paper sent over from London every day (of course, it takes a week or so to get here...) and I read it simply because I am fascinated by the differences in the wawy the words are put together, and by the way that other cultures view shared experiences such as the Gulf conflict and the war on terrorism, and such. I also have a few opinions about the Labour Party, and the difficulties that Prime Minister Blair had with parliment during the crisis, and even a couple on the "announcement" that Prince Charles may, or may not have been involved in his ex-wife's death... HOWEVER, I do not feel that it is my place to discuss such matters for any other reason than I am not a member of the "family" so to speak. And as I said, it is not for ANY American to chastise or speak ill about anything of the sort. It would be like me coming into your house and making comments about your maiden Aunt Millie, or your drunken cousin Sylvester, or the Crazy butler Jeeves... It is just not my business.
You have been a valued member of Passions much longer than I have and you should never feel unwelcome on these hallowed blue pages. Besides...I'm an American. As crude and as crass as we are, you should understand that we have a tendancy to speak in a most boorish manner.  lol

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Christopher
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67 posted 01-16-2004 03:04 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

the only good thing that would result from Bush being reelected would be that i would be able to assume a very reasonable loan on a nice house here in town... because the aunt and uncle have vowed that they're giving us the house, packing up, and moving to Belize the moment the votes declare him winner.

still not sure if the tradeoff's worthwhile...
Ron
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68 posted 01-16-2004 03:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I certainly hope we never hear Balladeer or Ringo give an opinion on states or even cities in which they don't live. It would be best, I'm sure, if they just minded their own business?

Somehow, back-pedaling never seems to make ill advised reactions any less ill advised. Dismissing someone's opinions because of where they live, what they wear, the color of their skin, their gender or social status, for any of the other thousand reasons people inevitably find is just plain wrong. You blew it, guys. Instead of trying to justify it, maybe you should just admit you blew it?
Brad Majors
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69 posted 01-16-2004 03:45 PM       View Profile for Brad Majors   Email Brad Majors   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad Majors

Even though I have reservations about some of the descions he makes he does stick with them. I admire for that. Also looking at the choices we have (bleak to say the least). The only one I really like is liberman but he will in the end lose because of his faith. I do have to say Dean is honest but can't see him winning because he is his worst enemy. All in all where is snoopy when you need him
Severn
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70 posted 01-16-2004 04:56 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hm. Funnily enough, the 'family business' of US politics happens to resonate all the way around the world.

We don't live in a community of individual little countries now, merrily going about their own business. We live in a global society - and I hate to say it, but who the US president is, and what that administration does, affects all countries - whether they're capitalist, communist, democratic, developing or developed etc etc.

Example: NZ doesn't support the war on Iraq - we miss out on a Freetrade agreement with the States. This affects our export/import abilities with many countries, not just the US.

It ain't family business guys...it's world business.
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71 posted 01-16-2004 06:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When I was living in Venezuela in 1972, the first gay marriage in the US, in California, was performed. What did I hear from the Venezuelans? "American men are up there marrying each other!" I tried to explain that that was a fluke, completely out of the norm, but it didn't matter. To many of them America had then become a land where the men were going around marrying each other. Did they have a right to give their opinion? Sure. Did their opinion have any validity? Nope, because they had no idea what they were talking about, giving full validity to a newspaper headline to form their opinion. I can give all kinds of opinions from everything to the Croats and Serbs to the Palestinian issue to the Irish situation to relations between North and South Korea - to whatever. Do I expect my opinions to be taken seriously? Nope - I haven't been there, I don't really know the reality of the subjects. Shall I debate with Brad over North Korea? Hardly. He is there with first hand knowledge and I'm reading newspapers.

At any rate, my point here was not that people did not have the right to give opinions. This was not about opinions. It was about direct derrogatory statements from people far removed from the actuality of what was being referred to.

so in turn, he is trying to save his butt by getting the mexicans on his side

do u think this time he'll be elected fairly or will he need his brother to get him out of the crap again?


These are not opinions....they are simply negative slurs. I didn't see any "In my opinion..." Anyone in any country can say them but that doesn't mean they carry any validity, and less validity the further away the speaker lives. I could scream out, "English, stop trying to shove religion down Irish throats and get out!" I would expect at very least a 'mind your own business. You don't know what you're talking about'.

Be all that as it may, I think what Ringo is referring to and me also in a way is this....

Black Americans call each other the N word constantly. It's part of their vocabulary. Poor is the whitey who tries it....
Severn
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72 posted 01-16-2004 06:38 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Mike...some people in other countries do actually know what they're talking about lol...

I get my information on the US from what I read, that's true, and from talking to my friends in the States. I even get to watch Bush give little speeches, and Powell and whatsisname - Rumsfeld? I also watch BBC world news and CNN - guess that means I get the same sources of information that some people in the US get (albeit, mere 'headlines' and who on earth trusts journalists these days? It's all so horribly slanted). But I'd bet, that from the information that's presented to me, I probably know MORE about US policies than some non-politically minded US citizens.

Doesn't make me an expert though. I'm definitely living in far far away bliss.

However, some people in far far away countries are actually employed to understand the workings of other governments. I'm sure they, at least, know what they're talking about eh?

K
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73 posted 01-16-2004 06:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By the way, Ron, I would NEVER give a flat statement or strong opinion over a city or state where I don't live or don't know anything about. There are too many variables, too many scenes behind the scenes which I would not be aware of. Shall I give an opinion about the Friends of the St. Joe River fighting industry and hog farmers over pollution? Hardly. What if there is a town in Alaska where illegal seal hunting goes on and the fact is that, without this activity the town would die as the seal provides the only food, clothing fuel, etc for their existance? Shall I just proclaim "Seal hunting is wrong!" and leave it at that? I may give opinions but don't worry about me passing judgement over unknown places or events....ain't gonna happen.
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74 posted 01-16-2004 07:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Right you are, Severn, but you have missed the point, I'm afraid. I would venture to say that many people in the world know more about American politics than Americans, the same as they know more about geography, speak more languages, etc, etc. It is a weakness of America that our schools give less importance to the rest of the world on these subjects. When I went back to Missouri from Venezuela one of the old-timers at the local bar asked me where I had been. I replied Venezuela. His response was "Is that somewhere near Africa?" Sadly that is not uncommon. Perhaps it is because we are basically isolated geographically from the world. Yes, of course, Canade is there, along with Central and SOuth America but many Americans don't know anything about them. Go to the farmlands of the midwest and see how many people can name 3 countries of central America....forget it. ALso we don't have to rely on any foreign languages.....well, of course, in Florida, Texas, and California they will disagree but in the heartland of America English is all they need - or know. From the 4 years I lived in Europe I can safely say, from what I saw, the average student could run circles around an American kid of the same age with regards to the world and world events. I also agree that the presidency of the United States is indeed important to the world since we have been placed in a "leadership" role, and I believe the rest of the world pays a lot of attention to American politics. I would fully respect your, or anyone's, opinion on the US presidency or government. You could even make me see it in a different light as a view from a country in which American policy affects. So I would never discredit your opinion. If, however, you want to denigrate an American leader, without fact and having no idea what you are talking about, I will certainly not take you seriously...or anyone else. Those are the types of comments I was referring to which has got this ball rolling....
 
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