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Passions in Poetry

Bible Quoting

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Aenimal
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0 posted 12-23-2003 01:05 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

My problem with subjecting people to scripture quotes, and my problem with religion altogether,  is how incredibly
selective people are with them. I find it  ludicrous how people can justify pointing out some words saying THIS IS how
it is, while completely ignoring others. If one takes the Bible as a divinely inspired and direct transcription of God's will
then there should be no room for selectivity, interpretation or reformation without the express written consent of the
original author.  

If you are true to scriptures consider this (Be forewarned anybody childish enough or squeamish enough to be frightened
or disgusted by the mention of menstruation leave now):

Women and everything or anyone they touch are considered unclean and impure in the eyes of God. Therefore  menstruating
women should, by devine law, adhere to Leviticus 15:19 to 15:30:  I offer a piece of that passage


... on the eighth day she shall take for herself two turtledoves or two young pigeons and bring them in to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting.
  

The priest shall offer the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. So the priest shall make atonement on her behalf before the LORD because of her impure discharge...

The passage is longer and far more graphic but there it is folks..DIVINELY inspired words on how that time of month
is to be dealt with. Now how many people adhere to it? Almost comical if not outright barbaric and offensive to
women is it not? So we skip this and realize how much a part of regular life it really is but if you're intent on following God's
words and believe in the divinity of the words then you're living in sin and the men who touch you or sleep where you sleep
are too.

We'd still be handing our justice in an eye for an eye manner and have all other sorts of outdated and incredibly strange
ways of dealing with life. Instead we select what works for us and toss the rest. sighs This is why I have far more respect
for the orthodox and literal religious person then for the average and selective believer. Personally I think references
should be banned from this forum except in the Spiritual Journeys section or at least eliminated from threads that are
not theological or spiritual in nature but as that will never happen...


"Have you ever considered any real freedoms ? Freedoms...from the opinions of others...even the opinions of yourself?" ~Kurtz

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (12-23-2003 01:07 AM).]

serenity blaze
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1 posted 12-23-2003 01:13 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Lately I seem to be plagued with issues of blood.

(and I know, I know, I can't believe I just typed that either.)

You know I'll be back on this one, as menses is my topic of expertise (or should be)

giggle.



(I had to do it Raph. Happy Solstice, Lovie. )
Aenimal
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2 posted 12-23-2003 01:21 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

grins K merry solstice
Michelle_loves_Mike
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3 posted 12-23-2003 01:37 AM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

good thoughts aenimal,,,,,im not one to quip about scripture,,,trust me,,,but, as far as the "blood issue",,,further along in the bible,,,,,in the new testament,,,,,it tells its good readers that,,,the christ came to replace all the old offerring/cleansing/repenting animal sacrifices with himself,,,so the old way of such was no longer needed,,,,,,
i agree with your view on bible inturpritation,,,,most people who inturprit,,,,haven even read the whole thing,,or they choose one verse out of context and beat it to death,,,read job,,,,people say he was such a suffering true to god soul,,,may have been,,,but, they dont look at the whole picture its painting,,,,,goodpoints,,,,,,,,Michelle

I wish all could find the true happiness I have found,,in the eyes of Mike

Ringo
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4 posted 12-23-2003 02:08 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

My problem with subjecting people to scripture quotes, and my problem with religion altogether,  is how incredibly
selective people are with them. I find it  ludicrous how people can justify pointing out some words saying THIS IS how
it is, while completely ignoring others
********************************************

Isn't that what you just did???
To reply with a more specific answer, the Bible-to Christians- is not necessarily a direct transcription of G-d's will, or His Divine words... It is a collection of history, and plain story that is to be used to lead us along the path to being better in His eyes, and to bring us closer to Him.
For proof, I offer you the following (as it is the season):
The Gospel according to Matthew and the Gospel according to Luke are the ONLY ones of the accepted 4 that deal with the Christmas story. There is another (the Gospel of James) that has been traditionally left out of the Bible that deal with it as well.
Within these three Gospels, there are many differences that are- at times- seemingly contradictory, and there are stories found in one or two that are not in the other/s. As example:
Matthew starts the Christmas Story (Matthew 1/18) "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was with child of the Holy Spirit..." and doesn't get into anything else until the story of Herod killing all male children under the age of 2, and the arrival of the wise men.
Luke starts the Christmas story all the way back with the Annunciation wherein the Angel Gabriel tells Mary what the lord has planned for her life. He doesn't get into the actualy event until (Luke 2/6) "And so it was while she was there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered..."
James (who ONLY talks about the Birth gets into it about halfway through.

Matthew talks about the killing of the male children under 2... Luke does not... James does.

Matthew gives Mary the attitude of a humble and lowly hand servant, Luke makes her much more politically astute and intelligent. James doesn't really get into that deeply.

Matthew announces the Birth to the world by way of the wise men (Matthew 2/1). Luke announces it by way of the Angels (Luke 2/9). James first gives the Birth to Mary alone, because Joseph stopped in a cave and went to get midwives, and the birth happened while he was gone, and then makes a reference to the wise men.

There are many more examples in this story alone, however the point is this... It was written by men, and mortal man shall never agree to the same story, even if they saw and heard it at the same time. In most casees, the Gospels were written many, many years after the death of Christ.. in Luke's case it is thought over 100 years, and in the case of the Gospel of James over 150 years annd not by James. For that reason, there will be inconsistencies... and contradictions. Thast is why the majority of Christian religions teach tehir followers that it is to be used as a guide on how to live one's life.

One other thing that many people who quote scripture do... and you, yourself have done... they use the scriptures out of context, and incompletely.

********************************************

"Women and everything or anyone they touch are considered unclean and impure in the eyes of God. Therefore  menstruating
women should, by devine law, adhere to..." Leviticus 15:19 to 15:30

This is a piece of the OLD Testiment, which Christians use mainly for reference, and to bring more insight into the life of our Lord. Jesus came to fulfill those scriptures, and to give His followers a NEW way to live and worship (hence the NEW Testiment)
********************************************

"... on the eighth day she shall take for herself two turtledoves or two young pigeons and bring them in to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting..."

You didn't quote the source of this passage so that anyone interested in researching your viewpoints might be able to look it up. Unless I am mistaken (and I haev been before), you are referring to Luke 2/21-24 in which we are told about the Circumsision of Jesus according to the Law of Moses, and the subsiquent cleansing of the mother... also according to the Law of Moses.

You also talk about an eye for an eye, and such as that...
again, that is OLD Testiment, and as Michelle has stated, Jesus brought to us a new way of life, and a new way of dealiong with each other. We went from the might makes right school to loving our neighbors as ourselves.
One thing I will definately agree with you on... most "good" Christians will tell you their way is THE way unto the Lord,and yet they follow not their own words.. or they interpret their own words to their betterment. For those people, I simply say that sitting in church and spouting scripture no more makes you a Christian than sitting in a garage and making puttering noises makes you a Cevrolet.

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
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5 posted 12-23-2003 04:30 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

First things first Ringo. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but there's no need to tell me what it's missing Gospels or the difference between the accepted ones. Keep in mind I've read the both new and old testament apocryphas,the pseudographia and the dead sea scrolls.   And the letter from Clement that speaks of the secret Gospel Of Mark including the Lazerus story that otherwise appears only in John(which btw is considered the most historically accurate and believable by many scholars). I've also spoken about the roots of the old testament tales stretching as far as Sumeria(i.e. Noahs Ark) and have argued here using many of them.

But to the point no Ringo I don't believe I'm being subjective. You're assuming I personally think the bible is divinely inspired? No, in fact barely find it tolerable fiction let alone divine law. My point is that many who quote scripture and do accept it as divine will are hypocrites for being selective about what they will and will not follow.

Secondly the quote was perfectly in context, the passage discusses female menstruation, its uncleanliness and how it should be dealt with and atoned for.

Third how can you say I didn't quote the source of the passage!? It's right there Leviticus 15:19 to 15:30. You even included it in your reply to me in a quote from my comment.  

As for your comments regarding Jesus bringing a new way of worship. That's fine I know this. Yet many people constantly quote passages from the old texts that's why i used the example. I could have easily used an example from the New Testament. My point is that we've moved and evolved beyond many of them but only selectively.

The point is while many of those who will quote scripture and tell you why their religion is the right one they are selective about what works or doesn't work for them. The fact that there are so many factions and offshoots within the same religion from the same book is a testament(pardon the pun) to this.


[This message has been edited by Aenimal (12-23-2003 04:32 AM).]

Ron
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6 posted 12-23-2003 09:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What'd you have for dinner last night, Raph?

Unless you can answer, "everything," I'd say there's a bit of a problem with your argument. It's a little hard to escape being selective. Which I appreciate, by the way, as this thread would be terribly inconvenient had you quoted the whole book of Leviticus.

Selectivity is just another word for choice. Somehow, I just know you're not arguing against that.

So, I figure you must be arguing, instead, for consistency of choice. No, wait a minute; that would mean everyone would have to think pretty much alike, wouldn't they? I mean, there's only one "best" way to do anything? Somehow, I have to suspect you would be as bored by this kind of world as I know I would be.

I guess I'm a little confused, Raph, as to exactly what you ARE arguing here.

I don't know. I always tried to follow my dad's advice, not just because he was my dad, but because he was wise and following his advice benefited me. Trouble is, what he told me to do when I was ten years old didn't always jibe with what he said when I was twenty. How he suggested I treat strangers sometimes conflicted with how I was to treat friends, but he never quite defined the precise moment when the former becomes the latter. And, frankly, I've long suspected some of what he advised was purposely simplified because he knew I would never be as smart as he was.

Sometimes I get it right, and I can almost feel him nod and smile. Often, I don't get it right. What's cool is that, even then, I can still feel him smiling.
Ringo
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7 posted 12-23-2003 11:11 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Raph- First of all, no arrogance was noted with not being needed to be told about the books. Most don't know about them (including the "good" Christians). The fact taht you haev done your due diligence is a testam... a credit to you.
Actually, I don't think you hold the view that the Bible is divinely inspired. Your post in itself, put together with many other posts on this general subject have shown that.

AS for the hypocritical statement, we have already agreed (as in my post) that too many "good" Christians are of the "Do as I say, not as I do" school of Christianity, including followers and leaders (Such as the revivalist-styled minister screaming about the temptations a Marine could find in Korea, only to get nailed for Drunk and disorderly by hanging out of a Jeep drunk and screaing at the Korean nationals.) It is for that precise reason that I align myself with no organized religion... ell, that and the fact taht my studies have given me thoughts and ideas about Him that fall within the general tenents of the Christian ethos, yet outside of the organized acceptance.

Yes, you did quote the source of the first passage... however, it is the second passage that you quoted about the two turtledoves and the two pigeons that I was remarking about not being noted. Again, I seem to remember that as being in Luke, and the original post being in Leviticus (New vs Old). If Luke is not the source of your quote then I will admit to being wrong. I do not happen to have a Bible here by the desk, and can claim nothing but laziness as for not retrieving one now. If this second quote is not from the Gospel according to Luke, then could you please tell me where I might find it?
I will admit that my knowledge of the OT is not as good as the NT, and if the quote given is also from Leticus, then- again- that is one on me... however, if it is, then - again- out with the Old  and in with the New.


As for the "many off-shoots" and all of that... Such things happen, not only within the Christian views on life, and death. They also happen within the belief systems of Judism, Islam, Wicca, and almost every other religious sect. It is just the way things are. It is also apparent in such vast areas as volunteering (hence all the organizations), military service (every commander has his/her own way of killing within the "accepted" methods), Business training (Tom Hopkins, Zig Zeigler, etc.) and even the card game Spades (EVERY table has it's own special rules).  Whenever you give any two people the right to think for themselves, and the ability to research the "Truth" someone is going to read or hear, or understand things differently. That is the human religious experience is so screwed up... because people have vastly differing opinions of what the Truth is.

Anyways, that is the way that *I* see the "Truth" about this.  

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
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8 posted 12-23-2003 12:23 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ron that's silly. Of course within the realms of a discussion one has to be selective in using examples. The point of the 'selected' example was to illustrate (as you mentioned with your father's advice not jibing)that we've evolved past many of these words and attidues.

So what's my argument? That when someone quotes from the Bible and says "See here, THIS is how it is or what you're doing is a sin according to this." I find it appalling. If you're going to claim a passage and the words as DIVINE law then don't be selective about it. What gives you the right as a human, to accept some words and law but reject others by your godhead?

The point is not a matter of choice or selection. You can't say "God says it's a SIN to covet thy neighbours.." and then ignore the fact that within the same book(as per my selective example ) that menstruation is a vile thing that should be atoned for in the eyes of god.

If you believe the book is divine then ALL of it is divine and should be followed wholly. Time and change of social attitude should have no bearing considering these are the words and law of the omnipotent universal big cheese!!!

And I'm not talking about everyone who reads or worships a religion based on the book. Just the half-assed(excuse my language) quoters and armchair prophets who have the gall to tell you what is and isn't sin.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (12-23-2003 12:37 PM).]

Aenimal
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9 posted 12-23-2003 12:35 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ringo you're still incorrect about not quoting the source. I said Leviticus 15:19 to 15:30 and then said that I offer a piece of that passages.

As for offshoots yes I agree and never claimed it occured solely in the christian community. My comment was all encompassing that's why I used the term religion as in the past I've taken flak for what seems discord with the christian faith when really its a distaste for ALL organized religion.

Anyways Ringo it seems we're more in agreement than at odds here. The comment was geared towards the hypocrites not all followers of faith. I still believe most references should be banned from this forum except in the Spiritual Journeys section or at least eliminated from threads that are not theological or spiritual in nature. Especially the judgemental and *gasp* SIN quotes.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (12-23-2003 12:36 PM).]

Ron
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10 posted 12-23-2003 03:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
What gives you the right as a human, to accept some words and law but reject others by your godhead?

LOL. Actually, that right comes from the godhead. It's called free will.

Einstein said that nothing with mass will ever travel faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. I believe that is the truth. I don't necessarily believe it's the WHOLE truth. I see no real contradiction in being selective in our beliefs. You believe every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and true? I got no problem with that. You believe the Bible is a mix of myth, folklore, culture and truth? I got no problem with that either. Two people don't have to agree on every detail in order to be brothers because, in the end, our relationship should be defined by commonalities, not differences.

As for quoting the Bible, it is as good an authority as any. Whether you cite history, law, science, or religion, some will accept and some will deny, based far less on truth than on predisposition. When push comes to shove, it is ALL based on personal faith. Some just recognize and embrace that more than do others.
Aenimal
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11 posted 12-23-2003 05:25 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Free Will?!! LOL There's a loaded topic.

And you seem to be missing the point. It's not with bible quoting per say. There's nothing wrong with quoting a book, like quoting Einstein or Blake or whomever. It's when people quote it as LAW. Or pass it like a judgment that i have a problem with. And it's to THOSE people I say stop being so selective as to what is and is not a sin.
Ringo
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12 posted 12-23-2003 07:40 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

As I said more than once, I could have been wrong about the source... and it turns out I was.
And we do agree on the fact that many times (maybe most times) the "Good" Christians are as hypocritical as anyone can possibly be.
When am I going to learn not to respond to your posts??
lol

Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind
And brings me to despair.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


13 posted 12-23-2003 09:55 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ringo I am glad you did reply. You have the rare gift of faith and wisdom. You believe in something strongly and yet have the foresight to see and speak of it's flaws as well. I have nothing but the utmost respect for that.
Jason Lyle
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14 posted 12-26-2003 06:55 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

I'm late again, but hey, was in Detroit for the holidays.I do not really know how to respond Raph.I also have read the entire bible, several times, as well as the Koran, and alot of history books.
What I found with every read were alot of conflicting stories, myths, human error.
The parodox in truth starts in Genesis, a whole new threads' worth of "can you believe that?"
My usual argument is that the bible is a history written by men, and a mix of myth, oral history, a smidgen of fact.A mixing of history and culture, fact, and diluted truth.
If I was forced to look to scripture for faith, I would be an athiest.I would have no choice.It may be a cliche that I look to my children instead, But is the only place I have found his work.
Of course, I am a bad example for your thread, I agree with you most of the time.
Faith is empty when it is reduced to a hail mary, "and also with you", or a man who kneels and prays when everyone else does.
I can quote you the bible all day long, I could read you gilgamesh, but you memorized it.Me and you, would probably have a great time, im'ing links to flood myths, and the worship of Baal.It would be no great sport, for either of us to disprove God.
But arguments against God are mundane anymore, I await an argument to prove him, in the meantime, I will read silly "Noahs ark" stories to my daughters, lest I pollute them with my doubt.

Jason
 
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