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Passions in Poetry

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Brigid WillowKeeper
Member
since 08-24-2003
Posts 91
OHIO IN USA


0 posted 12-15-2003 01:27 PM       View Profile for Brigid WillowKeeper   Email Brigid WillowKeeper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brigid WillowKeeper


OK, I don't see the point in deleting violent or suicidal posts, I mean, so you think that people who write these need the help of professionals and not novice poetry critiquers, but what is wrong with expressing EVERY emotion through poetry. Even the hopeless ones? It isn't like, if someone were to tell you your poem about death was beautifully written, you are going to kill yourself. One kills themselves when something bad happens in real life, not on a messageboard. (Unless they really are that selfish)
It bites.
Ringo
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Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


1 posted 12-15-2003 01:36 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Everyone does have the right to express themselves in any manner they wish with their poetry, however, Since this is a privately owned site, the owner has the right to protect the kids that come on here in anyway he feels needed, and to make the rules for the site. Requiring that adult themes (such as suicide, and death and dismemberment, or any of the like) be placed in adult forums, or not allowed at all is NOT censorship. It is very simply the man who owns the site deciding how he wants his site to be run.
The very simple solution is to do what a few on here have done and start your own poetry site. There are many, many places where you can put up a free site... including MSN (Which one member has done) and Yahoo (Which I have done)... and there you can place any of your own poetry covering whatever subject you wish.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


2 posted 12-16-2003 12:37 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

I understand your frustration I really do, but you need to understand, that more times then not, words have power and most here are not qualified to handle such answers as to why one may feel the way they do.  suicide poems are pulled, due to the feelings one has in perceiving the post,   “no way out”  I want to end my life”  “there is no other answer” ….nor should we make any one believe it is a “good thing”.  It is never a good thing!

  
Condoning  violence/and Advocating harm to yourself or others, in a poem is dangerous -- graphic harm to another is never necessary to make a point, here again words have power..  
quote:
Depicting a scene or scenario where a human is harmed, without showing the repercussions to both parties, is just as dangerous as open promotion.
.   Most are not qualified to answer the whys’ no matter the intentions of the writers post.  

Overall, if one feels any of these heart-wrenching emotions, the real answer is to seek some kind of professional help.

I have only touched on the basic answers, I do hope more reasons and understanding will follow.....



~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S




[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-16-2003 07:52 AM).]

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


3 posted 12-20-2003 04:09 AM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

I personally don't feel that suicide is "never right", because who are we to judge?  A person's life is their own and we aren't qualified to judge what is correct for it.  At times it is not the only way, that is a fair statement, but for some people there is nothing here for them anymore.  People are so intent on proving that suicide is wrong and shoving it under the carpet that they forget to question why a person wants to do it in the first place.
nakdthoughts
Member Laureate
since 10-29-2000
Posts 19275
Between the Lines


4 posted 12-20-2003 06:09 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Mad Hatter

most do it for attention... even talking about wanting to harm oneself is a cry for help...and may be because of being severely depressed over a "situation" and are not in their right mind to see that there IS help out there or there is medicine to change those mood swings...suicide is forever...the feelings about wanting to end a life may be temporary...

Stating that it is their life to do what they wish doesn't take in consideration of all those involved with the person and the effect it may have on others.

Just my 2 cents
M
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
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Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


5 posted 12-20-2003 06:30 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

"The effect it may have on others" is of  crucial importance in this question.  We can't prevent any one of our members from either threatening OR actually committing suicide. I'd like to think they'd find help before actually going that far, but we can't control such a situation from across the cyber waves.

We CAN, however, prevent those thoughts from pervading our other members who might just be susceptible to the suggestion.  It would be irresponsible of us to sanction any illegal and self-deprecating act to other people whose emotional states just might be equally as tenuous.

You won't be seeing this "anarchistic" change happening here at Passions in Poetry.  You will, rather, see us encourage our members to seek proper support from "real-time" professional counselors. There IS help out there for anyone in need.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


6 posted 12-20-2003 12:41 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

quote:
At times it is not the only way, that is a fair statement, but for some people there is nothing here for them anymore.  People are so intent on proving that suicide is wrong and shoving it under the carpet that they forget to question why a person wants to do it in the first place.



Ryan~

I can appreciate your thoughts....however,

I dont think any one and not just here at Pip would be so willing to shove it under a carpet, it is not my job, nor anyone elses to ask why/s....my reason being, I do not have the right qualifications nor a PhD....am I will to listen YES of course, but when it comes right down to it I would do no good in trying to help....leave that for one who can understand from training--and has had more years of experience....
Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


7 posted 12-20-2003 10:11 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Humanity and understanding if self is not achieved through training, a friend can and often is more of a life saver than ANY "certified" person.  Medicines and all of these things that cover up the problem are not the solution.  People don't need a doctor to tell them what's wrong with them in cases like this, people already know.  They need a friend another human to understand on some personal level.  In my opinion any person is just as qualified in a situation like this to help.  I've taken anti-depressants and it made me feel so inhuman, it was ignoring who I am.  Suicide is just as equal an option as chosing to live.  It is neither right, nor wrong, it simply is and it's a personal choice.  Why would anyone want to force someone who wants to die to live anyway?  If a person is set on doing it, you can only in the end let them know that you love them and that you will respect their decision.  This life is a cruel one and it's not for everyone, we all do what we all have to do to get by.  SO who are we to say that one way is better than another?  The basic, humanistic principles are the things that save people, not hollow pills.  There is no "right state of mind" when it comes to people these days, because none of us are in the true human state of mind.  How can we even define the correct state of mind?  Is a person who is happy in anymore a correct state of mind as a person who is sad?  It's all about choice and a persons choice is their own.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


8 posted 12-20-2003 10:37 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Medicines and all of these things that cover up the problem are not the solution.



Perhaps not 'the' solution but 'A' solution for many people.  I've often thought it a preposterous one myself. But,

quote:

How can we even define the correct state of mind?  Is a person who is happy in anymore a correct state of mind as a person who is sad?



Physiologically we can tell a healthy brain from one that isn't.  If seratonin levels are depleted it severely impedes a person's ability to function -- that is normally the case for a person who is clinically depressed and medications can restore seratonin levels -- at that point it becomes a question of counseling, choice, and attitude.  What I've found interesting though is that sadness is not usually what depletes seratonin levels -- it is ANGER!  

Even repressed anger.

Wouldn't that be a tragic reason for suicide?

If a person with a normally functioning brain encounters an event that should induce sadness then sadness is normal.  Clinical depression is not.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (12-20-2003 10:39 PM).]

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


9 posted 12-20-2003 11:08 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Sometimes the most simple solution is the better one.  Instead of trying to cover peoples problems up, we should understand and we should prevent.  I mean we have our reasons for living and a person is entitled to their reasons for death just as much as we are for living.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


10 posted 12-20-2003 11:15 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

In the case where the pill solution is utilized as an 'easy' and only solution (which is most often done by a family physician) I agree that it is not necessarily the right thing to do.

I had a doctor try to prescribe something for me when I was sad -- because I was supposed to be sad -- that's preposterous.

But when a person is depressed that's a far different matter -- the first resort is to fix the physiological problem -- the seratonin levels -- just like bandaging a wound.

AFTER the bleeding stops then it's time to find what the root causes are -- and thats where the caring and understanding can come into play.
Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


11 posted 12-20-2003 11:38 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Often it never gets to that stage, because pills aren't enough.  You cannot heal a wound with the infection still festering inside of it...
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


12 posted 12-20-2003 11:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well you're absolutely right Hatter..

Even more important to consider is that even with proper medical treatment and professional psychological counseling some patients still resort to suicide -- which is all the more reason why a message board such as this is ill equiped to be handling such a process.
Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


13 posted 12-20-2003 11:52 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

I'm not saying that this messageboard should be for that, but really any community can and should be if it has to be.  The fact that patients still resort to suicide even after all of this "certified" help, proves my point.  People just want to make other human connections and to be understood by someone on a personal level, not a professional doctor to patient level.  It's one thing to write about suicide, its another to enforce it as an option for everyone.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


14 posted 12-21-2003 04:44 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Humanity and understanding if self is not achieved through training, a friend can and often is more of a life saver than ANY "certified" person.

Should you ever find yourself in need of heart surgery, I suspect you'll change your mind.

The remarkable thing is we depend on doctors, rather than friends, for open heart surgery because we know just how complicated and dangerous such a procedure can be. Without intense training, opening someone's chest would be little different than murder. Yet with intense training, their success rate is highly encouraging in spite of the procedure's very obvious complexity. Should we conclude that treating clinical depressing is less complex? Even though the success rate is probably lower?

To treat the human mind, we need someone with MORE training than a cardiac surgeon, not some friend with substantially less. Anyone who gives CPR and then says, "There, you're all better now; no need to see a doctor" isn't a very good friend.

quote:
I've taken anti-depressants and it made me feel so inhuman, it was ignoring who I am.

I agree that substituting one evil for another is a bad answer. If you were unsatisfied with "who you are" while taking a pill, then it was obviously the wrong pill. It doesn't necessarily follow that all pills are wrong. Treating chemical imbalances is an inexact science and a failure is no reason to quit. Try different treatments until you find one where you like "who you are." It's a damn bumpy road, but others have traveled it successfully. It can be done.

Of course, if you are already satisfied with "who you are" then there's no reason to take any pills. And there's no reason to consider suicide, either.

quote:
Suicide is just as equal an option as chosing to live.

For whom?

Should a three-year-old child be allowed to jump in the pool's deep end? Should someone stoned out of their mind be handed the keys to a car? At what point is individual choice superceded by common sense? Always is a bad answer, but so is never.

Suicide can only be an option when the individual is capable of making cognizant choices. If a person's brain chemistry is running amok, whether from alcohol or drugs or seratonin, they cannot make valid judgments.

quote:
Often it never gets to that stage, because pills aren't enough. You cannot heal a wound with the infection still festering inside of it...

That argument is only valid if no one else has ever survived the infection.

If even one person has lived through a situation without resorting to suicide, then we can unequivocally say the situation is NOT the cause of suicide. Tens of millions of people every day live through loss, heartbreak, loneliness, and devastating despair. They survive not because they're stronger, not because they're luckier, but only because their bodies and brains adjust and help temper their feelings of utter hopelessness. There is not a single person in all of history who has not experienced those feelings. If despair alone could kill, the human race would never have survived the Ice Age.

The infection is festering in each of us. There is no cure, and no way to remove it, because it defines the human condition. But the infection is only dangerous to those who lack the antibodies that allow most of us to cope.

quote:
The fact that patients still resort to suicide even after all of this "certified" help, proves my point.

Not everyone lives through open heart surgery, either. But that certainly doesn't mean the surgery was useless for the many who do survive.

The problem with medical treatment is that it's not a guarantee, it's just a hope. And, ironically, hope is the one thing most lacking in those who suffer clinical depression. Treatment is available. It works, if not well, if not quickly, at least inevitably. We just can't get those who most need it to want it. That is, to me, the greatest tragedy I can imagine.

There are two kinds of people who promote suicide as a viable option to life.

There are those suffering from real depression, who use their writing as catharsis. While that's a bit like using a band-aid for a heat attack, I wouldn't have a problem with it if they ALSO got real help. Too often they don't, because sharing their pain helps, for a time, to lessen their pain. You know what? I honestly don't want to help them lessen a pain that needs to be treated. Whether from a heart attack or depression, pain is a warning that should be heeded, not masked. I will not provide an alternative to medical help.

The second group of people are writers who use suicide as an easy cliché for feely badly. Sad isn't sad enough, they think, unless the end is death. The result is all those "I died for love" and "They'll be sorry when I'm gone" diatribes that trivialize and mock a very serious, very real medical problem. They help perpetuate the myth that suicide is the result of events, in spite of the fact that millions of others have survived those same events. An estimated one third of all suicides are not the result of clinical depression, but rather are missteps in a grab for sympathy. Mistakes. By romanticizing something that is always ugly, by distorting truth, such writers are guilty of killing people. I will not provide a venue for dangerous lies.


Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


15 posted 12-21-2003 10:18 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'd only add one point to what Ron said and that is that this:

quote:

People just want to make other human connections and to be understood by someone on a personal level, not a professional doctor to patient level.



is a really unfortunate attitude.  While it is true that no one really wants to need a doctor suggesting that all people need to do is have friends, lovers, et al and to be understood is the biggest misconception in the world.

It denies that depression is a medical condition (that can be treated) and re-asserts that mental illness is just some kind of a lack of mental toughness.  It's a throwback to attitudes of close to a hundred years ago and aggravates the problem.

Clinically depressed people DO have people in their lives that care about them, they do have families, they have friends, but it is a symptom of the disease that in spite of this they 'feel' lonely and sad.

If suicide is ever the right answer then someone asked the wrong question.

Which,is why, even though I'm glad Saddam Hussein has been captured -- I continue to wince at the way this administration handles things -- suggesting that Saddam is a 'coward' because he didn't commit suicide...what kind of message does that send?
Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


16 posted 12-21-2003 05:35 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

I don't even know why heart surgery was brought up, because that's an obvious extreme, of course you're not going to let friends or family perform a heart surgery, so that argument isn't even valid.  I'm not saying that medication and professional help cannot be of assistance to a person, because it can, my point is that it sort of distracts from the why.  Not every persons reasonings and feelings of depression are the same, so we cannot just assume that they are.  If a person wants to commit suicide, no one has the right to tell them they are wrong.
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


17 posted 12-21-2003 06:30 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
I don't even know why heart surgery was brought up, because that's an obvious extreme


...and suicide isn't?

Suicide is a very selfish act.  It takes courage to get beyond depression, or any other source of despair that drives one to think of taking the "supposedly" easy way out.  It takes thinking of others, how their lives will be affected, and simply not thinking of just one's self.
Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


18 posted 12-21-2003 06:49 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

If you can't be happy with yourself, then what's the point, you cannot live for others, if you cannot even live for yourself.  Saying that suicide is selfish, is a terrible thing to say, it is not selfish, not anymore than living the way we do is.  I said that heart surgery is an extreme, because you're obviously going to need a proffessional to do that, depression you don't always need a proffessional.
skyshine
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Member Elite
since 02-07-2002
Posts 3337
Beneath the northern stars


19 posted 12-21-2003 10:51 PM       View Profile for skyshine   Email skyshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit skyshine's Home Page   View IP for skyshine

With clinical depression, yes, professional help is always needed. It is a medical condition which a person SHOULD NOT treat by themselves (or with their family and friends--unless, of course, they have a friend who is a doctor and that friend is professionally treating them). And yes, suicide is selfish. How many family members and friends are being left behind when someone chooses to end their life? People are allowed to live their own lives the way they want PROVIDED it does not hurt another person. If I decide to drive down the highway at breakneck speed during rush hour, do you think everyone else should just say, "Well, we'll just let Liz be on that one. It's her life and she can live it however she chooses to." I would hope my family and friends wouldn't say that! Not only could I get hurt or killed (which WOULD hurt other people, because they'd miss me) lots of other people could be hurt too. Know what I'm saying?

~sky

Dreams last for so long, even after you're gone...
~Jewel

Ron
Administrator
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since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


20 posted 12-21-2003 11:07 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Suicide is no more selfish an act, Sunshine, than is cancer. People don't choose to be afflicted by either. And while courage is commendable and necessary, it alone is not sufficient to get beyond either depression or melanoma.

Mad Hatter, you are confusing depression, which is a very normal human state, with clinical depression, which is neither normal nor a state. If you prick your finger with a sharp pin, what happens? For most people, the blood coagulates, the bleeding stops, and they start the process of healing. Some people, however, have blood that refuses to clot, and a tiny cut can become a very serious problem.

It's exactly the same thing with depression.

We can't see the blood clotting, but when most people feel depressed, there is nonetheless a VERY similar chemical process taking place within their bodies. That process is as necessary to healing a soul as coagulation is to healing a cut finger. It is not healthy for a finger to continue bleeding for two or three weeks. We know that because we can see it happening, and most people would surly go see a doctor if they couldn't stop the bleeding after just a day. Well, it's not health to be depressed for more than two or three weeks either. Just because we can't see that kind of bleeding doesn't mean it's not real, and it doesn't mean we don't need help to stop it.

Those suffering from clinical depression, which is generally suggested by anything over two weeks, NEED a doctor every bit as much as those suffering from thin blood do.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


21 posted 12-21-2003 11:07 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Not only is suicide selfish but it is also a sin. To take your life, is saying I do not care what others think nor do I care how they feel.  I have a cousin that committed suicide, for his own selfish reasons, and though he is/was family, I am angry and sad, very sad....that he didn’t reach out to a professional and get the help he so needed.  Those left behind are often left feeling helpless, and ALWAYS questioning why, for me this past year has been hell, because he didn’t just take his life, he took every one else’s that cared and loved him.....and in truth I MISS HIM very much and saying yeah it was his life to do with what he wished--no he should have been more thoughtful....MHO
Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


22 posted 12-22-2003 01:47 AM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Of course you're mad/sad, because we make it all about us don't we?  His reasons may be his own and why can't people respect that?  I don't need people to tell me what clinical depression is, because I have/had it and coming from experience I'm saying that a doctor alone cannot help you.  Of course a doctor can help you, but there is much more to the healing process than that.  Healing non physical wounds such as this aren't treated as easily as say a cut or something of that sort.  Yes pills and doctors can and do help with that, but they aren't the answer all the time.  The only thing selfish about suicide, is the people who call it a selfish act and only think about themselves in the aftermath.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


23 posted 12-22-2003 02:11 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Healing non physical wounds such as this aren't treated as easily as say a cut or something of that sort.

Sigh. Clinical depression IS a physical wound, just exactly like a cut or a heart attack. No it can't be treated as easily, and a large part of that is because people want to romanticize it as something it isn't. As with any other ailment, clinical depression can be compounded by non-physical factors, but that doesn't make it some mysterious disease of the soul. That view is nothing but the fantasies of irresponsible writers.

Irresponsible writing will never find encouragement here.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


24 posted 12-22-2003 09:52 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Ryan~


Its obvious you have no idea how to be sensitive to anyone....I respect your answer, however I dont have to like it....nor respond to this anymore....good thing....

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

 
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