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Brigid WillowKeeper
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since 2003-08-24
Posts 88
OHIO IN USA

0 posted 2003-12-15 01:27 PM



OK, I don't see the point in deleting violent or suicidal posts, I mean, so you think that people who write these need the help of professionals and not novice poetry critiquers, but what is wrong with expressing EVERY emotion through poetry. Even the hopeless ones? It isn't like, if someone were to tell you your poem about death was beautifully written, you are going to kill yourself. One kills themselves when something bad happens in real life, not on a messageboard. (Unless they really are that selfish)
It bites.

© Copyright 2003 Brigid WillowKeeper - All Rights Reserved
Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes
1 posted 2003-12-15 01:36 PM


Everyone does have the right to express themselves in any manner they wish with their poetry, however, Since this is a privately owned site, the owner has the right to protect the kids that come on here in anyway he feels needed, and to make the rules for the site. Requiring that adult themes (such as suicide, and death and dismemberment, or any of the like) be placed in adult forums, or not allowed at all is NOT censorship. It is very simply the man who owns the site deciding how he wants his site to be run.
The very simple solution is to do what a few on here have done and start your own poetry site. There are many, many places where you can put up a free site... including MSN (Which one member has done) and Yahoo (Which I have done)... and there you can place any of your own poetry covering whatever subject you wish.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

Greeneyes
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2 posted 2003-12-16 12:37 PM


I understand your frustration I really do, but you need to understand, that more times then not, words have power and most here are not qualified to handle such answers as to why one may feel the way they do.  suicide poems are pulled, due to the feelings one has in perceiving the post,   “no way out”  I want to end my life”  “there is no other answer” ….nor should we make any one believe it is a “good thing”.  It is never a good thing!

  
Condoning  violence/and Advocating harm to yourself or others, in a poem is dangerous -- graphic harm to another is never necessary to make a point, here again words have power..  
quote:
Depicting a scene or scenario where a human is harmed, without showing the repercussions to both parties, is just as dangerous as open promotion.
.   Most are not qualified to answer the whys’ no matter the intentions of the writers post.  

Overall, if one feels any of these heart-wrenching emotions, the real answer is to seek some kind of professional help.

I have only touched on the basic answers, I do hope more reasons and understanding will follow.....



~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S




[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-16-2003 07:52 AM).]

Mad_Hatter
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since 2003-06-29
Posts 393
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3 posted 2003-12-20 04:09 AM


I personally don't feel that suicide is "never right", because who are we to judge?  A person's life is their own and we aren't qualified to judge what is correct for it.  At times it is not the only way, that is a fair statement, but for some people there is nothing here for them anymore.  People are so intent on proving that suicide is wrong and shoving it under the carpet that they forget to question why a person wants to do it in the first place.
nakdthoughts
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Between the Lines
4 posted 2003-12-20 06:09 AM


Mad Hatter

most do it for attention... even talking about wanting to harm oneself is a cry for help...and may be because of being severely depressed over a "situation" and are not in their right mind to see that there IS help out there or there is medicine to change those mood swings...suicide is forever...the feelings about wanting to end a life may be temporary...

Stating that it is their life to do what they wish doesn't take in consideration of all those involved with the person and the effect it may have on others.

Just my 2 cents
M

Nan
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5 posted 2003-12-20 06:30 AM


"The effect it may have on others" is of  crucial importance in this question.  We can't prevent any one of our members from either threatening OR actually committing suicide. I'd like to think they'd find help before actually going that far, but we can't control such a situation from across the cyber waves.

We CAN, however, prevent those thoughts from pervading our other members who might just be susceptible to the suggestion.  It would be irresponsible of us to sanction any illegal and self-deprecating act to other people whose emotional states just might be equally as tenuous.

You won't be seeing this "anarchistic" change happening here at Passions in Poetry.  You will, rather, see us encourage our members to seek proper support from "real-time" professional counselors. There IS help out there for anyone in need.

Greeneyes
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6 posted 2003-12-20 12:41 PM


quote:
At times it is not the only way, that is a fair statement, but for some people there is nothing here for them anymore.  People are so intent on proving that suicide is wrong and shoving it under the carpet that they forget to question why a person wants to do it in the first place.



Ryan~

I can appreciate your thoughts....however,

I dont think any one and not just here at Pip would be so willing to shove it under a carpet, it is not my job, nor anyone elses to ask why/s....my reason being, I do not have the right qualifications nor a PhD....am I will to listen YES of course, but when it comes right down to it I would do no good in trying to help....leave that for one who can understand from training--and has had more years of experience....
Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
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since 2003-06-29
Posts 393
Canada
7 posted 2003-12-20 10:11 PM


Humanity and understanding if self is not achieved through training, a friend can and often is more of a life saver than ANY "certified" person.  Medicines and all of these things that cover up the problem are not the solution.  People don't need a doctor to tell them what's wrong with them in cases like this, people already know.  They need a friend another human to understand on some personal level.  In my opinion any person is just as qualified in a situation like this to help.  I've taken anti-depressants and it made me feel so inhuman, it was ignoring who I am.  Suicide is just as equal an option as chosing to live.  It is neither right, nor wrong, it simply is and it's a personal choice.  Why would anyone want to force someone who wants to die to live anyway?  If a person is set on doing it, you can only in the end let them know that you love them and that you will respect their decision.  This life is a cruel one and it's not for everyone, we all do what we all have to do to get by.  SO who are we to say that one way is better than another?  The basic, humanistic principles are the things that save people, not hollow pills.  There is no "right state of mind" when it comes to people these days, because none of us are in the true human state of mind.  How can we even define the correct state of mind?  Is a person who is happy in anymore a correct state of mind as a person who is sad?  It's all about choice and a persons choice is their own.
Local Rebel
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Southern Abstentia
8 posted 2003-12-20 10:37 PM


quote:

Medicines and all of these things that cover up the problem are not the solution.



Perhaps not 'the' solution but 'A' solution for many people.  I've often thought it a preposterous one myself. But,

quote:

How can we even define the correct state of mind?  Is a person who is happy in anymore a correct state of mind as a person who is sad?



Physiologically we can tell a healthy brain from one that isn't.  If seratonin levels are depleted it severely impedes a person's ability to function -- that is normally the case for a person who is clinically depressed and medications can restore seratonin levels -- at that point it becomes a question of counseling, choice, and attitude.  What I've found interesting though is that sadness is not usually what depletes seratonin levels -- it is ANGER!  

Even repressed anger.

Wouldn't that be a tragic reason for suicide?

If a person with a normally functioning brain encounters an event that should induce sadness then sadness is normal.  Clinical depression is not.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (12-20-2003 10:39 PM).]

Mad_Hatter
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Posts 393
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9 posted 2003-12-20 11:08 PM


Sometimes the most simple solution is the better one.  Instead of trying to cover peoples problems up, we should understand and we should prevent.  I mean we have our reasons for living and a person is entitled to their reasons for death just as much as we are for living.
Local Rebel
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Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
10 posted 2003-12-20 11:15 PM


In the case where the pill solution is utilized as an 'easy' and only solution (which is most often done by a family physician) I agree that it is not necessarily the right thing to do.

I had a doctor try to prescribe something for me when I was sad -- because I was supposed to be sad -- that's preposterous.

But when a person is depressed that's a far different matter -- the first resort is to fix the physiological problem -- the seratonin levels -- just like bandaging a wound.

AFTER the bleeding stops then it's time to find what the root causes are -- and thats where the caring and understanding can come into play.

Mad_Hatter
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11 posted 2003-12-20 11:38 PM


Often it never gets to that stage, because pills aren't enough.  You cannot heal a wound with the infection still festering inside of it...
Local Rebel
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12 posted 2003-12-20 11:42 PM


Well you're absolutely right Hatter..

Even more important to consider is that even with proper medical treatment and professional psychological counseling some patients still resort to suicide -- which is all the more reason why a message board such as this is ill equiped to be handling such a process.

Mad_Hatter
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13 posted 2003-12-20 11:52 PM


I'm not saying that this messageboard should be for that, but really any community can and should be if it has to be.  The fact that patients still resort to suicide even after all of this "certified" help, proves my point.  People just want to make other human connections and to be understood by someone on a personal level, not a professional doctor to patient level.  It's one thing to write about suicide, its another to enforce it as an option for everyone.
Ron
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14 posted 2003-12-21 04:44 AM


quote:
Humanity and understanding if self is not achieved through training, a friend can and often is more of a life saver than ANY "certified" person.

Should you ever find yourself in need of heart surgery, I suspect you'll change your mind.

The remarkable thing is we depend on doctors, rather than friends, for open heart surgery because we know just how complicated and dangerous such a procedure can be. Without intense training, opening someone's chest would be little different than murder. Yet with intense training, their success rate is highly encouraging in spite of the procedure's very obvious complexity. Should we conclude that treating clinical depressing is less complex? Even though the success rate is probably lower?

To treat the human mind, we need someone with MORE training than a cardiac surgeon, not some friend with substantially less. Anyone who gives CPR and then says, "There, you're all better now; no need to see a doctor" isn't a very good friend.

quote:
I've taken anti-depressants and it made me feel so inhuman, it was ignoring who I am.

I agree that substituting one evil for another is a bad answer. If you were unsatisfied with "who you are" while taking a pill, then it was obviously the wrong pill. It doesn't necessarily follow that all pills are wrong. Treating chemical imbalances is an inexact science and a failure is no reason to quit. Try different treatments until you find one where you like "who you are." It's a damn bumpy road, but others have traveled it successfully. It can be done.

Of course, if you are already satisfied with "who you are" then there's no reason to take any pills. And there's no reason to consider suicide, either.

quote:
Suicide is just as equal an option as chosing to live.

For whom?

Should a three-year-old child be allowed to jump in the pool's deep end? Should someone stoned out of their mind be handed the keys to a car? At what point is individual choice superceded by common sense? Always is a bad answer, but so is never.

Suicide can only be an option when the individual is capable of making cognizant choices. If a person's brain chemistry is running amok, whether from alcohol or drugs or seratonin, they cannot make valid judgments.

quote:
Often it never gets to that stage, because pills aren't enough. You cannot heal a wound with the infection still festering inside of it...

That argument is only valid if no one else has ever survived the infection.

If even one person has lived through a situation without resorting to suicide, then we can unequivocally say the situation is NOT the cause of suicide. Tens of millions of people every day live through loss, heartbreak, loneliness, and devastating despair. They survive not because they're stronger, not because they're luckier, but only because their bodies and brains adjust and help temper their feelings of utter hopelessness. There is not a single person in all of history who has not experienced those feelings. If despair alone could kill, the human race would never have survived the Ice Age.

The infection is festering in each of us. There is no cure, and no way to remove it, because it defines the human condition. But the infection is only dangerous to those who lack the antibodies that allow most of us to cope.

quote:
The fact that patients still resort to suicide even after all of this "certified" help, proves my point.

Not everyone lives through open heart surgery, either. But that certainly doesn't mean the surgery was useless for the many who do survive.

The problem with medical treatment is that it's not a guarantee, it's just a hope. And, ironically, hope is the one thing most lacking in those who suffer clinical depression. Treatment is available. It works, if not well, if not quickly, at least inevitably. We just can't get those who most need it to want it. That is, to me, the greatest tragedy I can imagine.

There are two kinds of people who promote suicide as a viable option to life.

There are those suffering from real depression, who use their writing as catharsis. While that's a bit like using a band-aid for a heat attack, I wouldn't have a problem with it if they ALSO got real help. Too often they don't, because sharing their pain helps, for a time, to lessen their pain. You know what? I honestly don't want to help them lessen a pain that needs to be treated. Whether from a heart attack or depression, pain is a warning that should be heeded, not masked. I will not provide an alternative to medical help.

The second group of people are writers who use suicide as an easy cliché for feely badly. Sad isn't sad enough, they think, unless the end is death. The result is all those "I died for love" and "They'll be sorry when I'm gone" diatribes that trivialize and mock a very serious, very real medical problem. They help perpetuate the myth that suicide is the result of events, in spite of the fact that millions of others have survived those same events. An estimated one third of all suicides are not the result of clinical depression, but rather are missteps in a grab for sympathy. Mistakes. By romanticizing something that is always ugly, by distorting truth, such writers are guilty of killing people. I will not provide a venue for dangerous lies.



Local Rebel
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15 posted 2003-12-21 10:18 AM


I'd only add one point to what Ron said and that is that this:

quote:

People just want to make other human connections and to be understood by someone on a personal level, not a professional doctor to patient level.



is a really unfortunate attitude.  While it is true that no one really wants to need a doctor suggesting that all people need to do is have friends, lovers, et al and to be understood is the biggest misconception in the world.

It denies that depression is a medical condition (that can be treated) and re-asserts that mental illness is just some kind of a lack of mental toughness.  It's a throwback to attitudes of close to a hundred years ago and aggravates the problem.

Clinically depressed people DO have people in their lives that care about them, they do have families, they have friends, but it is a symptom of the disease that in spite of this they 'feel' lonely and sad.

If suicide is ever the right answer then someone asked the wrong question.

Which,is why, even though I'm glad Saddam Hussein has been captured -- I continue to wince at the way this administration handles things -- suggesting that Saddam is a 'coward' because he didn't commit suicide...what kind of message does that send?

Mad_Hatter
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16 posted 2003-12-21 05:35 PM


I don't even know why heart surgery was brought up, because that's an obvious extreme, of course you're not going to let friends or family perform a heart surgery, so that argument isn't even valid.  I'm not saying that medication and professional help cannot be of assistance to a person, because it can, my point is that it sort of distracts from the why.  Not every persons reasonings and feelings of depression are the same, so we cannot just assume that they are.  If a person wants to commit suicide, no one has the right to tell them they are wrong.
Sunshine
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17 posted 2003-12-21 06:30 PM


quote:
I don't even know why heart surgery was brought up, because that's an obvious extreme


...and suicide isn't?

Suicide is a very selfish act.  It takes courage to get beyond depression, or any other source of despair that drives one to think of taking the "supposedly" easy way out.  It takes thinking of others, how their lives will be affected, and simply not thinking of just one's self.

Mad_Hatter
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18 posted 2003-12-21 06:49 PM


If you can't be happy with yourself, then what's the point, you cannot live for others, if you cannot even live for yourself.  Saying that suicide is selfish, is a terrible thing to say, it is not selfish, not anymore than living the way we do is.  I said that heart surgery is an extreme, because you're obviously going to need a proffessional to do that, depression you don't always need a proffessional.
skyshine
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19 posted 2003-12-21 10:51 PM


With clinical depression, yes, professional help is always needed. It is a medical condition which a person SHOULD NOT treat by themselves (or with their family and friends--unless, of course, they have a friend who is a doctor and that friend is professionally treating them). And yes, suicide is selfish. How many family members and friends are being left behind when someone chooses to end their life? People are allowed to live their own lives the way they want PROVIDED it does not hurt another person. If I decide to drive down the highway at breakneck speed during rush hour, do you think everyone else should just say, "Well, we'll just let Liz be on that one. It's her life and she can live it however she chooses to." I would hope my family and friends wouldn't say that! Not only could I get hurt or killed (which WOULD hurt other people, because they'd miss me) lots of other people could be hurt too. Know what I'm saying?

~sky

Dreams last for so long, even after you're gone...
~Jewel

Ron
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20 posted 2003-12-21 11:07 PM


Suicide is no more selfish an act, Sunshine, than is cancer. People don't choose to be afflicted by either. And while courage is commendable and necessary, it alone is not sufficient to get beyond either depression or melanoma.

Mad Hatter, you are confusing depression, which is a very normal human state, with clinical depression, which is neither normal nor a state. If you prick your finger with a sharp pin, what happens? For most people, the blood coagulates, the bleeding stops, and they start the process of healing. Some people, however, have blood that refuses to clot, and a tiny cut can become a very serious problem.

It's exactly the same thing with depression.

We can't see the blood clotting, but when most people feel depressed, there is nonetheless a VERY similar chemical process taking place within their bodies. That process is as necessary to healing a soul as coagulation is to healing a cut finger. It is not healthy for a finger to continue bleeding for two or three weeks. We know that because we can see it happening, and most people would surly go see a doctor if they couldn't stop the bleeding after just a day. Well, it's not health to be depressed for more than two or three weeks either. Just because we can't see that kind of bleeding doesn't mean it's not real, and it doesn't mean we don't need help to stop it.

Those suffering from clinical depression, which is generally suggested by anything over two weeks, NEED a doctor every bit as much as those suffering from thin blood do.

Greeneyes
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21 posted 2003-12-21 11:07 PM


Not only is suicide selfish but it is also a sin. To take your life, is saying I do not care what others think nor do I care how they feel.  I have a cousin that committed suicide, for his own selfish reasons, and though he is/was family, I am angry and sad, very sad....that he didn’t reach out to a professional and get the help he so needed.  Those left behind are often left feeling helpless, and ALWAYS questioning why, for me this past year has been hell, because he didn’t just take his life, he took every one else’s that cared and loved him.....and in truth I MISS HIM very much and saying yeah it was his life to do with what he wished--no he should have been more thoughtful....MHO
Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
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Posts 393
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22 posted 2003-12-22 01:47 AM


Of course you're mad/sad, because we make it all about us don't we?  His reasons may be his own and why can't people respect that?  I don't need people to tell me what clinical depression is, because I have/had it and coming from experience I'm saying that a doctor alone cannot help you.  Of course a doctor can help you, but there is much more to the healing process than that.  Healing non physical wounds such as this aren't treated as easily as say a cut or something of that sort.  Yes pills and doctors can and do help with that, but they aren't the answer all the time.  The only thing selfish about suicide, is the people who call it a selfish act and only think about themselves in the aftermath.
Ron
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23 posted 2003-12-22 02:11 AM


quote:
Healing non physical wounds such as this aren't treated as easily as say a cut or something of that sort.

Sigh. Clinical depression IS a physical wound, just exactly like a cut or a heart attack. No it can't be treated as easily, and a large part of that is because people want to romanticize it as something it isn't. As with any other ailment, clinical depression can be compounded by non-physical factors, but that doesn't make it some mysterious disease of the soul. That view is nothing but the fantasies of irresponsible writers.

Irresponsible writing will never find encouragement here.

Greeneyes
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24 posted 2003-12-22 09:52 AM


Ryan~


Its obvious you have no idea how to be sensitive to anyone....I respect your answer, however I dont have to like it....nor respond to this anymore....good thing....

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Susan Caldwell
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since 2002-12-27
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25 posted 2003-12-22 10:46 AM


I am with Ron on this.  Since I have a family member with a CHEMICAL imbalance, I can tell you first hand, someone with this infliction is not capable, at times, to make a sound decision.  This would be the same person I would rather didn't see poetry that depicts suicide or self-harm.  

You wouldn't get mad at a family member for getting cancer and dying would you?  

And by the way, for anyone that is going to try and read more into this than what I intend I will say right now, I do NOT mean to say that everyone that attempts suicide has a chemical imbalance nor am I saying that everyone with a chemical imbalance or suffering from any kind of depression WILL be affected by what they read.  There is very little in life that is all-inclusive.

suthern
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26 posted 2003-12-22 10:58 AM


Clinically depressed people DO have people in their lives that care about them, they do have families, they have friends, but it is a symptom of the disease that in spite of this they 'feel' lonely and sad.


Amen! And while medication may not be the answer, it can certainly be an excellent bandaid or tourniquet... allowing survival while the answer is found.

Greeneyes: I can understand your anger... honestly, I can. But I've been on that other side... and it's possible your cousin wasn't acting only out of selfishness. One way clinical depression kills is making the abnormal seem normal... I can look back and see the slide I was on, but at the time, I thought I was coping... up until that very moment I had started to take my life. I was lucky... I know you see only the anguish left behind... but perhaps one day you can spare some compassion for him being unable to see another way out.

Ron: I thank you for your stance... We all need friends, we all need confidantes... but the clinically depressed need much more than words, however sympathetic.

Greeneyes
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27 posted 2003-12-22 11:20 AM


Greeneyes: I can understand your anger... honestly, I can. But I've been on that other side... and it's possible your cousin wasn't acting only out of selfishness. One way clinical depression kills is making the abnormal seem normal... I can look back and see the slide I was on, but at the time, I thought I was coping... up until that very moment I had started to take my life. I was lucky... I know you see only the anguish left behind... but perhaps one day you can spare some compassion for him being unable to see another way out.''''


I have a great deal of compassion for him and his family, (my family)
I agree, he needed help and wouldnt get it....but I think and stand firm, and sorry to those it may offend, taking ones life is very selfish, especially when there is help available.....even for the depressed and clinically depressed......

thank you suthern for your gentle reply....I appreciate it....hugssss lady and Happy Holidays

gemjop
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28 posted 2003-12-22 11:33 AM


People who commit suicide are not selfish or sinners. Imagine what mental state you must be in to seriously consider suicide. to say these people have not considered their family and the consequences of their death for others is ridiculous. they are at a point where selfishness doesn't even come into it. to feel suicidal is not a simple thing. it is desperation, a dark endless cage. something many people will never come close to experience in their lives. you must consider the many circumstances of people before labelling people who commit suicide selfish.  
Greeneyes
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29 posted 2003-12-22 11:49 AM



Removing the quote, because it was in bad choice to post it here, so I apologize.....

[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-23-2003 08:39 AM).]

gemjop
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30 posted 2003-12-22 12:33 PM


Yes, in the eyes of God. But not my eyes, nor perhaps in the eyes of people who do not believe in the word of the bible.

I'm not disputing that the bible refers to such people as sinners and its reasons why, of which i am well aware of. But what the word sinner means to people personally.

for example, homosexuals according to the bible also are 'sinners', which i find pathetic personally. then these people are aware they are 'sinners' = bad people, and selfish people. it is a narrowminded useless label for use in the realities of the world today.

why should they have this label?

Don't suicidal people have enough on their plate whithout being named a potential sinner? What happens to understanding and compassion of peoples circumstances? what use is the opinion of God to their situation? this is not about religion, or i feel, shouldnt be. It is life, something that is real and happening before our eyes.

~I wanna live, I wanna give, I've been a miner for a heart of gold~  Neil Young

Ron
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31 posted 2003-12-22 02:05 PM


Lauren, I don't know where that quotation is from and I'm always reluctant to argue with third parties. Suffice it to say, just about everything in the quotation is twisted and wrong.

Anger is a very normal part of grief. When my mother died of lung cancer, I was mad at her and a society that would encourage people to slowly kill themselves. When a girl I loved deeply died in a car accident thirty years ago, I was furious with her for drinking and driving. When my three-year-old son nearly drowned in the deep end of a pool, I wanted to spank him so hard and long he would never even think of going near a pool again. There are many different ways people kill themselves, and not all of them are called suicide.

Trouble is, anger doesn't really help. It can't reverse the losses, and it really doesn't make me feel any better. Anger is normal. But the only thing that will make a difference is understanding and education.

Greeneyes
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32 posted 2003-12-22 02:24 PM


Ron,

I dont have a comeback for that....not to say I havent thought about it or realized....this is part of a healing process, and I am learning....I can take responsibility for my feelings and thoughts, and also understand and agree not everyone, if anyone will understand my point of view....I am not asking anyone to do such....I am merely stating how I feel about it....

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

33 posted 2003-12-22 02:42 PM


Hey Lauren...big hugs to you. (Sneaking back in - you replied to Ron as I was writing this...)

I truly understand what you are saying, and how you are feeling. Because of that, I want to relay three different true-life anecdotes to you.

First: A christian man - a friend of a friend - took his life a few years ago, yet he was apparently very strong in his faith. A year or two before he took his life, his wife had died. One christmas he took some rope and hung himself from a tree. He left behind his two little girls. What does this mean? That he abandoned his faith, his family? That he wasn't strong enough to cope with the loss of his wife? That he wasn't strong enough to cope with life? I don't think so. I recall that he was clinically depressed.

Second story: My mother. She is mentally ill - with schizophrenia (she is also very physically ill). She lives in care, permanently now. She's just turned 51. Recently, she came into a inheritance - which she wasn't allowed to have, and it's been put into a trust for her. In her lifetime, she won't see much of this money, because she has been deemed unfit to handle such a large sum of money. Her choices have been removed from her and left to people who can make healthy, responsible decisions on her behalf. She is placed in care because she simply can't make responsible decisions in basically every area of her life. The last time she lived alone she turned off all her power, gas and telephone amenities in the dead of winter...

Third story: Me. Last year, I was clinically depressed myself. A few really hard things had happened...and I was very very low. It was on the morning when I lay in bed, unable to move, that I started thinking about where all the pills where in the house that I could possibly take. That frightened me out of the lethargy I'd been feeling for a good month. Enough to call a friend, who dragged me to a doctor and diagnosed me - and gave me anti-depressants - alongside some counselling sessions. My doctor recognised that while my seratonin levels were very low, I also needed counselling to deal with the issues that were happening in my life. Together, they worked.

I hope my three different stories show in some way the nature, and different faces, of mental illness.

As Ron has said there is a HUGE difference between feeling depressed and BEING clinically depressed.

In so many cases it's actually physiologically impossible for a sufferer of mental illness to make rational, thoughtful decisions. Like the man who took his life. Rationally, I'm quite certain he would never have dreamt he'd leave his daughters in that way. My mother, who has many lucid moments, is now permanently eccentric and simply can't make rational decisions. She must live in a position where her medication can be administered to her, or she won't take it. As for myself? I'm versed in mental illness, and recognised the signs and acted on them - (although my friend literally did drag me to the doctor..she forced me to get dressed, and took my hand and TOOK me to the car). Many people don't make that decision because they either can't, or don't recognise the warning signs.

Of course, as Susan said - it's not all-inclusive. Not everyone who is clinically depressed kills themself, and not everyone who commits suicide is clinically depressed...

However, mental illness, of ALL forms, has nothing to do with weakness, thoughtlessness, selfishness, faithlessness etc etc. Mental illness is a medical condition, like asthma, epilepsy, haemophilia. You can't see these things manifested in physical ways on a day to day basis, but they need medical treatment just the same.

God has a compassionate, understanding heart. He understands medical conditions a lot more than we do. Another example: My mother loves God. She believes Jesus is her saviour. She refuses to read the bible, she won't go to church. Yet she loves him, and she follows him in the capacity of what her illness allows her to. My mother has wished, ardently, to die. Because her life is, quite frankly, not very nice - she does not have a nice standard of living due to her various illnesses. She's also incredibly lonely - the mentally ill often are. Yet her faith in God is her own, and it's real.

So, Lauren, I can understand your frustration, and your hurt. I truly hope that this discussion, overall, can ease you in some way towards how you view your loss.

Madhatter - I'll repeat it - there is a huge difference between feeling depressed and BEING clinically depressed.

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (12-22-2003 02:49 PM).]

Greeneyes
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34 posted 2003-12-22 02:51 PM


K~

Thank you....hugsssss back


Happy Holidays....


Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 2003-06-29
Posts 393
Canada
35 posted 2003-12-22 05:06 PM


Ryan~


Its obvious you have no idea how to be sensitive to anyone....I respect your answer, however I dont have to like it....nor respond to this anymore....good thing....

How so?  I think I'm being more than sensitive to the people who do commit suicide, or the people who are clinically depressed.  All I'm saying is that medicine alone wont save a person from this disease, it's ridiculous to even think that.  I do not believe in God and I have a question for those who do.  Wouldn't you rather believe in something, some "god" who wouldn't damn those who are dammaged by his painful earth, I was under the impression that this idea of "god" was supposed to be compassionate and forgiving.  To call victims of suicide sinners and to call them wrong, is equally as "wrong" as you think doing it is.  Suicide is a sad and devestating thing, no doubt, but it is unfortunately a reality and people who chose to do it are in my opinion entitled to do it.  Once again, I don't need people telling me the difference between being depressed and being clincally depressed, because I've been there and continue to be there.

Greeneyes
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36 posted 2003-12-22 05:43 PM


Ryan~

I do not have a come back for that either....touche'   I regret saying anything at all....especially how I feel, but I take full responsibility for them....and they are mine....hugssss and Happy Holidays...I do wish for you much peace.....


Sincerely


Lauren~

[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-22-2003 05:44 PM).]

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 2003-06-29
Posts 393
Canada
37 posted 2003-12-22 05:55 PM


Thank you, but don't feel sorry for anything you say, you've got just as much of a right to an opinion as me .  Happy holidays to you as well.
Aenimal
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since 2002-11-18
Posts 7350
the ass-end of space
38 posted 2003-12-22 10:15 PM


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible tells us that a murder will not enter into heaven along with several other types of sin. (Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15)  In Exodus 20:13, it states “Thou shall not kill” (KJV) which was one of the ten commandments that God gave to Moses to set up as law.  This one statement tells us that God is telling us not to kill or murder.  What is murder?  It is the taking of a life, any life.  When a person takes the life of another the law categorizes it as “Homicide”, if someone takes their own life they call it “Suicide”.  Webster defines the term murders as , “taking a human life unlawfully” and “to put an end to: destroy”.  Right to the point is it not?  So you really have two categories of murder Homicide and Suicide.  No matter how you look at it they both deal with the taking of human life, putting an end to a life, and destroying a life.  It is all murder and murder is a sin in the eyes of God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the finest examples of just how open to interpretation and easy it is to suit the bible's words to suit whatever cause. Some would argue that Thou Shall not Kill is directed to the Hebrews alone, do not kill another Hebrew. Which would make sense considering the acts of violence god lead the jews through over other nations in his name. Also if suicide is considered a sin then soldiers too should be considered sinners for risking and losing their lives in battle. Many have died overwhelemed by odds and in the name of god and they too then should be considered sinners for giving and taking lives. blech
I try to stay away from the alley as much as i can but the incredible things people say drag me back in everytime

Greeneyes
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39 posted 2003-12-22 11:05 PM


touche'  no one has to agree with me....again I regret saying anything at all...

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S




[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-22-2003 11:21 PM).]

Tim
Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794

40 posted 2003-12-22 11:58 PM


One should not regret saying something they believe.  It is a natural reaction to be angry about the suicide of a loved one.

Yes, there is help available, but not nearly as much as should be, nor with the difficulty that exists in obtaining the help one needs.

The stigma that attaches to mental illness is hard to overcome.  I have been a member of the board of our local mental health association for about twenty years now, and the initial reaction of far too many people is fear, revulsion or why the heck should I be concerned about mental illness, I ain't crazy.

Why does not health insurance adequately cover mental illness?  It is an illness as any other.

I have also served on our state child death review board.  No one should ever glorify or attempt to justify suicide.  That is who you should get angry at for suggesting suicide is a valid option to deal with a problem.

One step that local mental health associations and the National Association have really focussed on in recent years is depression screenings.  They occur on a regular basis all over the U.S. and the world for that matter.

If one has any concerns at all about their own feelings of depression or those of someone they love, then a depression screening or professional help should be sought.

One does not need to be a professional to help someone with depression, but it does take awareness.  It is not always easy.  One of the members of our board of directors was involved in a murder suicide recently and no one had any idea she suffered from depression, she was well liked professor at a local college.

It is not hard to find information about clinical depression, but one needs to take the effort to learn.  

If someone has cancer, one doesn't say, hey, I can't help, I am a lay person, go seek help from a professional.  You do what you can, professionals do what they can, and a bit of prayer never hurts.


wintertao
Member
since 2003-11-17
Posts 366
Okaloosa Island, FL
41 posted 2003-12-24 09:06 PM


Well it was a most interesting exchange and this kind of open and frank conversation is rare so I think all should be given kudos for taking part.
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