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Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


25 posted 12-22-2003 10:46 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

I am with Ron on this.  Since I have a family member with a CHEMICAL imbalance, I can tell you first hand, someone with this infliction is not capable, at times, to make a sound decision.  This would be the same person I would rather didn't see poetry that depicts suicide or self-harm.  

You wouldn't get mad at a family member for getting cancer and dying would you?  

And by the way, for anyone that is going to try and read more into this than what I intend I will say right now, I do NOT mean to say that everyone that attempts suicide has a chemical imbalance nor am I saying that everyone with a chemical imbalance or suffering from any kind of depression WILL be affected by what they read.  There is very little in life that is all-inclusive.
suthern
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Member Seraphic
since 07-29-99
Posts 20770
on the threshold of a dream


26 posted 12-22-2003 10:58 AM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

Clinically depressed people DO have people in their lives that care about them, they do have families, they have friends, but it is a symptom of the disease that in spite of this they 'feel' lonely and sad.


Amen! And while medication may not be the answer, it can certainly be an excellent bandaid or tourniquet... allowing survival while the answer is found.

Greeneyes: I can understand your anger... honestly, I can. But I've been on that other side... and it's possible your cousin wasn't acting only out of selfishness. One way clinical depression kills is making the abnormal seem normal... I can look back and see the slide I was on, but at the time, I thought I was coping... up until that very moment I had started to take my life. I was lucky... I know you see only the anguish left behind... but perhaps one day you can spare some compassion for him being unable to see another way out.

Ron: I thank you for your stance... We all need friends, we all need confidantes... but the clinically depressed need much more than words, however sympathetic.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


27 posted 12-22-2003 11:20 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Greeneyes: I can understand your anger... honestly, I can. But I've been on that other side... and it's possible your cousin wasn't acting only out of selfishness. One way clinical depression kills is making the abnormal seem normal... I can look back and see the slide I was on, but at the time, I thought I was coping... up until that very moment I had started to take my life. I was lucky... I know you see only the anguish left behind... but perhaps one day you can spare some compassion for him being unable to see another way out.''''


I have a great deal of compassion for him and his family, (my family)
I agree, he needed help and wouldnt get it....but I think and stand firm, and sorry to those it may offend, taking ones life is very selfish, especially when there is help available.....even for the depressed and clinically depressed......

thank you suthern for your gentle reply....I appreciate it....hugssss lady and Happy Holidays
gemjop
Member Elite
since 11-18-2002
Posts 2663
Pencilveinia, USA


28 posted 12-22-2003 11:33 AM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

People who commit suicide are not selfish or sinners. Imagine what mental state you must be in to seriously consider suicide. to say these people have not considered their family and the consequences of their death for others is ridiculous. they are at a point where selfishness doesn't even come into it. to feel suicidal is not a simple thing. it is desperation, a dark endless cage. something many people will never come close to experience in their lives. you must consider the many circumstances of people before labelling people who commit suicide selfish.  
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
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In Your Poetic Mind


29 posted 12-22-2003 11:49 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes


Removing the quote, because it was in bad choice to post it here, so I apologize.....

[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-23-2003 08:39 AM).]

gemjop
Member Elite
since 11-18-2002
Posts 2663
Pencilveinia, USA


30 posted 12-22-2003 12:33 PM       View Profile for gemjop   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for gemjop

Yes, in the eyes of God. But not my eyes, nor perhaps in the eyes of people who do not believe in the word of the bible.

I'm not disputing that the bible refers to such people as sinners and its reasons why, of which i am well aware of. But what the word sinner means to people personally.

for example, homosexuals according to the bible also are 'sinners', which i find pathetic personally. then these people are aware they are 'sinners' = bad people, and selfish people. it is a narrowminded useless label for use in the realities of the world today.

why should they have this label?

Don't suicidal people have enough on their plate whithout being named a potential sinner? What happens to understanding and compassion of peoples circumstances? what use is the opinion of God to their situation? this is not about religion, or i feel, shouldnt be. It is life, something that is real and happening before our eyes.

~I wanna live, I wanna give, I've been a miner for a heart of gold~  Neil Young

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


31 posted 12-22-2003 02:05 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Lauren, I don't know where that quotation is from and I'm always reluctant to argue with third parties. Suffice it to say, just about everything in the quotation is twisted and wrong.

Anger is a very normal part of grief. When my mother died of lung cancer, I was mad at her and a society that would encourage people to slowly kill themselves. When a girl I loved deeply died in a car accident thirty years ago, I was furious with her for drinking and driving. When my three-year-old son nearly drowned in the deep end of a pool, I wanted to spank him so hard and long he would never even think of going near a pool again. There are many different ways people kill themselves, and not all of them are called suicide.

Trouble is, anger doesn't really help. It can't reverse the losses, and it really doesn't make me feel any better. Anger is normal. But the only thing that will make a difference is understanding and education.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
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In Your Poetic Mind


32 posted 12-22-2003 02:24 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Ron,

I dont have a comeback for that....not to say I havent thought about it or realized....this is part of a healing process, and I am learning....I can take responsibility for my feelings and thoughts, and also understand and agree not everyone, if anyone will understand my point of view....I am not asking anyone to do such....I am merely stating how I feel about it....
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


33 posted 12-22-2003 02:42 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Lauren...big hugs to you. (Sneaking back in - you replied to Ron as I was writing this...)

I truly understand what you are saying, and how you are feeling. Because of that, I want to relay three different true-life anecdotes to you.

First: A christian man - a friend of a friend - took his life a few years ago, yet he was apparently very strong in his faith. A year or two before he took his life, his wife had died. One christmas he took some rope and hung himself from a tree. He left behind his two little girls. What does this mean? That he abandoned his faith, his family? That he wasn't strong enough to cope with the loss of his wife? That he wasn't strong enough to cope with life? I don't think so. I recall that he was clinically depressed.

Second story: My mother. She is mentally ill - with schizophrenia (she is also very physically ill). She lives in care, permanently now. She's just turned 51. Recently, she came into a inheritance - which she wasn't allowed to have, and it's been put into a trust for her. In her lifetime, she won't see much of this money, because she has been deemed unfit to handle such a large sum of money. Her choices have been removed from her and left to people who can make healthy, responsible decisions on her behalf. She is placed in care because she simply can't make responsible decisions in basically every area of her life. The last time she lived alone she turned off all her power, gas and telephone amenities in the dead of winter...

Third story: Me. Last year, I was clinically depressed myself. A few really hard things had happened...and I was very very low. It was on the morning when I lay in bed, unable to move, that I started thinking about where all the pills where in the house that I could possibly take. That frightened me out of the lethargy I'd been feeling for a good month. Enough to call a friend, who dragged me to a doctor and diagnosed me - and gave me anti-depressants - alongside some counselling sessions. My doctor recognised that while my seratonin levels were very low, I also needed counselling to deal with the issues that were happening in my life. Together, they worked.

I hope my three different stories show in some way the nature, and different faces, of mental illness.

As Ron has said there is a HUGE difference between feeling depressed and BEING clinically depressed.

In so many cases it's actually physiologically impossible for a sufferer of mental illness to make rational, thoughtful decisions. Like the man who took his life. Rationally, I'm quite certain he would never have dreamt he'd leave his daughters in that way. My mother, who has many lucid moments, is now permanently eccentric and simply can't make rational decisions. She must live in a position where her medication can be administered to her, or she won't take it. As for myself? I'm versed in mental illness, and recognised the signs and acted on them - (although my friend literally did drag me to the doctor..she forced me to get dressed, and took my hand and TOOK me to the car). Many people don't make that decision because they either can't, or don't recognise the warning signs.

Of course, as Susan said - it's not all-inclusive. Not everyone who is clinically depressed kills themself, and not everyone who commits suicide is clinically depressed...

However, mental illness, of ALL forms, has nothing to do with weakness, thoughtlessness, selfishness, faithlessness etc etc. Mental illness is a medical condition, like asthma, epilepsy, haemophilia. You can't see these things manifested in physical ways on a day to day basis, but they need medical treatment just the same.

God has a compassionate, understanding heart. He understands medical conditions a lot more than we do. Another example: My mother loves God. She believes Jesus is her saviour. She refuses to read the bible, she won't go to church. Yet she loves him, and she follows him in the capacity of what her illness allows her to. My mother has wished, ardently, to die. Because her life is, quite frankly, not very nice - she does not have a nice standard of living due to her various illnesses. She's also incredibly lonely - the mentally ill often are. Yet her faith in God is her own, and it's real.

So, Lauren, I can understand your frustration, and your hurt. I truly hope that this discussion, overall, can ease you in some way towards how you view your loss.

Madhatter - I'll repeat it - there is a huge difference between feeling depressed and BEING clinically depressed.

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (12-22-2003 02:49 PM).]

Greeneyes
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In Your Poetic Mind


34 posted 12-22-2003 02:51 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

K~

Thank you....hugsssss back


Happy Holidays....


Lauren~

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


35 posted 12-22-2003 05:06 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Ryan~


Its obvious you have no idea how to be sensitive to anyone....I respect your answer, however I dont have to like it....nor respond to this anymore....good thing....

How so?  I think I'm being more than sensitive to the people who do commit suicide, or the people who are clinically depressed.  All I'm saying is that medicine alone wont save a person from this disease, it's ridiculous to even think that.  I do not believe in God and I have a question for those who do.  Wouldn't you rather believe in something, some "god" who wouldn't damn those who are dammaged by his painful earth, I was under the impression that this idea of "god" was supposed to be compassionate and forgiving.  To call victims of suicide sinners and to call them wrong, is equally as "wrong" as you think doing it is.  Suicide is a sad and devestating thing, no doubt, but it is unfortunately a reality and people who chose to do it are in my opinion entitled to do it.  Once again, I don't need people telling me the difference between being depressed and being clincally depressed, because I've been there and continue to be there.
Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
since 09-09-2000
Posts 10848
In Your Poetic Mind


36 posted 12-22-2003 05:43 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Ryan~

I do not have a come back for that either....touche'   I regret saying anything at all....especially how I feel, but I take full responsibility for them....and they are mine....hugssss and Happy Holidays...I do wish for you much peace.....


Sincerely


Lauren~

[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-22-2003 05:44 PM).]

Mad_Hatter
Member
since 06-29-2003
Posts 397
Canada


37 posted 12-22-2003 05:55 PM       View Profile for Mad_Hatter   Email Mad_Hatter   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mad_Hatter

Thank you, but don't feel sorry for anything you say, you've got just as much of a right to an opinion as me .  Happy holidays to you as well.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


38 posted 12-22-2003 10:15 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible tells us that a murder will not enter into heaven along with several other types of sin. (Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15)  In Exodus 20:13, it states “Thou shall not kill” (KJV) which was one of the ten commandments that God gave to Moses to set up as law.  This one statement tells us that God is telling us not to kill or murder.  What is murder?  It is the taking of a life, any life.  When a person takes the life of another the law categorizes it as “Homicide”, if someone takes their own life they call it “Suicide”.  Webster defines the term murders as , “taking a human life unlawfully” and “to put an end to: destroy”.  Right to the point is it not?  So you really have two categories of murder Homicide and Suicide.  No matter how you look at it they both deal with the taking of human life, putting an end to a life, and destroying a life.  It is all murder and murder is a sin in the eyes of God
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the finest examples of just how open to interpretation and easy it is to suit the bible's words to suit whatever cause. Some would argue that Thou Shall not Kill is directed to the Hebrews alone, do not kill another Hebrew. Which would make sense considering the acts of violence god lead the jews through over other nations in his name. Also if suicide is considered a sin then soldiers too should be considered sinners for risking and losing their lives in battle. Many have died overwhelemed by odds and in the name of god and they too then should be considered sinners for giving and taking lives. blech
I try to stay away from the alley as much as i can but the incredible things people say drag me back in everytime
Greeneyes
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In Your Poetic Mind


39 posted 12-22-2003 11:05 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

touche'  no one has to agree with me....again I regret saying anything at all...

~~**~~**~~**~~**~~
May the miracle of
Christmas touch your
life with special blessing

H A P P Y  H O L I D A Y S




[This message has been edited by Greeneyes (12-22-2003 11:21 PM).]

Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


40 posted 12-22-2003 11:58 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

One should not regret saying something they believe.  It is a natural reaction to be angry about the suicide of a loved one.

Yes, there is help available, but not nearly as much as should be, nor with the difficulty that exists in obtaining the help one needs.

The stigma that attaches to mental illness is hard to overcome.  I have been a member of the board of our local mental health association for about twenty years now, and the initial reaction of far too many people is fear, revulsion or why the heck should I be concerned about mental illness, I ain't crazy.

Why does not health insurance adequately cover mental illness?  It is an illness as any other.

I have also served on our state child death review board.  No one should ever glorify or attempt to justify suicide.  That is who you should get angry at for suggesting suicide is a valid option to deal with a problem.

One step that local mental health associations and the National Association have really focussed on in recent years is depression screenings.  They occur on a regular basis all over the U.S. and the world for that matter.

If one has any concerns at all about their own feelings of depression or those of someone they love, then a depression screening or professional help should be sought.

One does not need to be a professional to help someone with depression, but it does take awareness.  It is not always easy.  One of the members of our board of directors was involved in a murder suicide recently and no one had any idea she suffered from depression, she was well liked professor at a local college.

It is not hard to find information about clinical depression, but one needs to take the effort to learn.  

If someone has cancer, one doesn't say, hey, I can't help, I am a lay person, go seek help from a professional.  You do what you can, professionals do what they can, and a bit of prayer never hurts.

wintertao
Member
since 11-17-2003
Posts 371
Okaloosa Island, FL


41 posted 12-24-2003 09:06 PM       View Profile for wintertao   Email wintertao   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wintertao

Well it was a most interesting exchange and this kind of open and frank conversation is rare so I think all should be given kudos for taking part.
 
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