How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Do we really look at writing like this?   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Do we really look at writing like this?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


0 posted 10-04-2003 01:19 AM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Just a question, I recently checked a few sites I posted on before I found pip.they were all poetry sites I found after searching my name on google.I never mind a critique, but most of the critiques i read.Said things like forget metric poetry, that was " as bad as Keats" (I wish I was that bad) You use cliched meter and metaphor.Really is there a site I don't know about on how to critique a poem?
I would not mind a harsh critique here, but noone here has ever told me I use harsh, end stop rhyme.Or that I am forced, all should feel free to if that is true, but why are critiques on other sites so harsh? correct me, but dont make me drink more.You read a harsh critique, and reread your write, and think some of what they said made sense, then you read the critics work, and think to yourself...from what talent or skill did they base this critisism? There has to be a website I am unaware of that teaches one to properly tear up a poet.
I would be willing to guess, I am not the only victim of uncrunstructive critisism, by equally unskilled poets.
This sounds bitter, it is a little, I have more than a few drinks(note the spelling), but really, do many of you read writing with end jambs, and metric in mind, or do you just read and feel?

Jason

[This message has been edited by Jason Lyle (10-04-2003 09:35 AM).]

Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


1 posted 10-04-2003 06:19 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Jason- Just consider the source and leave it at that. You mentioned that the criticisms were done by unskilled poets (notice I didn't use the word equally). You are talented, and we enjoy... well, I can't speak for others, I... enjoy your writing, even though I don't always reply.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


2 posted 10-04-2003 09:40 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Jason~
quote:
do many of you read writing with end jambs, and metric in mind, or do you just read and feel?
I can only speak for myself when I say that I read and feel and I write the same way~

Sometimes I challenge myself with structured-form poetry, just because I think that, for me, it's good discipline and a wonderful self-teaching tool.

But, my heart reads and writes ... and I let it~
*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram
   noles1@totcon.com     

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


3 posted 10-04-2003 09:42 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Jason,

I agree with Ringo. Some people are just ignorant, and prove it by implying that the form of poetry that they prefer is the only acceptable form. Don't give it another thought.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


4 posted 10-04-2003 09:45 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hey,Marge!  
Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


5 posted 10-04-2003 10:18 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal


Hey you sweet Denise person you !

~*When the heart grieves over what it has lost,
the spirit rejoices over what it has left.
- Sufi epigram
   noles1@totcon.com     

Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


6 posted 10-04-2003 11:07 AM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

personally, who are they to judge? If you want it critiqued take a poetry class. Even then poetry is still in the eye of the beholder. If you don't want to do that I would get them critiqued here. As for me, I never would "critique" a poem, I am no where near qualified.  But.. I do know what I like and what I don't.  but that is just taste.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


7 posted 10-04-2003 11:50 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Alas, the critiques you mention sound like they are of that very vigorous and often haughty group of freeverse fanciers now lording it that call rhyme a wretched clown, and strive to banish antiquity, straightforwardness and formalness off the poetic stage.  Never yeild to them.  Poetry needs his past.  They seem to imagine poetry may be pulled out of some mere thin abstract air of the present, out of their poetic hats perhaps, and done by arbitration alone.  But all they pluck out is a little feather to wave on high; and for certainly they know well how to carp on the art, but often not from consumate practice.  Maybe I take it a bit too gravely, yet honestly, I think the "freedom" in the art now has been taken too excess.  If one will to write poetry well, he shall in faith study the language and the forms of this art, and not just in their modern practice, but in their ancestral forms as well.  It is needful for more study in general.  And that is the full extent of my advice to any seeking to be a well versed poet or critique.  Studying shall make the poet wiser.  Studying shall make the critic wiser. Studying; and keeping intimate with the past.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-04-2003 11:52 AM).]

littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


8 posted 10-04-2003 05:08 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

just read and feel always and if there is something to be noted about a form or style, then it is
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


9 posted 11-02-2003 12:01 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Well, Ess. You should know me by now - I'm a 'freeverse fancier.' Sometimes, my dear fellow CA frequenter - you do strike me as being against progress/change/growth..

You know, I studied form poetry. A lot of 'freeverse fanciers' do. Alas, freeverse - good freeverse - is not the easy jumble of words to produce that some seem to think it is..

K

ps - Jason - critiquing can help you learn, depends on what you want out of poetry really isn't it?
Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


10 posted 11-02-2003 01:50 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Oh, I agree Severn, and do not mind an honest critique, I just do not understand why on some sites, they can be so personal and mean about it.All should feel free to critique me in depth, only way I can learn.
but no one on this site has ever done it in a cruel way, and on other sites that seems to be the rule.

Jason

P.S...I would not think of free verse as progress or growth, just a differant and equally enjoyable style.

[This message has been edited by Jason Lyle (11-02-2003 01:52 PM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


11 posted 11-03-2003 02:16 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Psst, Ess-

'If one will to write poetry well, he shall in faith study the language and the forms of this art'

Last time I checked, us women folks were writing some poetry, too...

'Poetry needs his past.'

Since when is poetry a personified guy?

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


12 posted 11-03-2003 03:12 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Y'know Jason...I've got so much silver and stardust in my rose colored glasses, that it's beyond me how to critique.  Most of what I can say is I like it, love it, feel it, or any other sense that gets kicked in when the poet really emphasizes certain things [i.e., I just read one where "touch and smell" came into play very well - for me.]

My point is, when I don't like something?  I personally find it very difficult to tell the person that "this is bad" - rather, I go on about what good points are in the poem, and make suggestions where it can be improved [at least, to my naive eye...]

Some folks can give excellent critiques.  Some folks [like me] just appreciate putting their eyes on so much talent.  Sooner or later, I recognize those that lack talent, or can see a diamond in the rough...and with proper encouragement from their peers, those folk generally begin to expand their learning and their writing.

Heh.  Can you tell I rarely get mad over how others perceive me and my work?  I guess I have to say it's always in the eye of the beholder, but them that behold only one style or form...miss out on so much more.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


13 posted 11-05-2003 08:52 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,

"He" and "she" are both equally Human to me so I don't think of one excluding the other.  But that may just be me.

Essorant.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-05-2003 09:50 PM).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


14 posted 11-06-2003 12:18 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Ess - cutting in here, I think that's rubbish and an excuse. Sorry, but I really do. Why didn't you put 'she' then? Just the very nature of saying 'men' etc etc cuts out women from the equation.

What do you think feminists were harping on about for so long? (Btw, I'm not one in the labelling sense).

K
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


15 posted 11-06-2003 10:32 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Severn

I believe when "he" is used to represent a word like (every)one or (every)body,
though not literally given, she should be figuratively there, and when "she" is, there he should be too.  
Why should the use of one be construed as ignorance to the other?  If you randomly pick one human out of all,  a "he" or "she" shall be that, but that he or she may in a general sense still equally represent everybody, as a human.  This is why I use either very randomly and try not to make an issue of them.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-06-2003 11:40 AM).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


16 posted 11-07-2003 01:52 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Well that's very noble, Ess.

Sadly, you're fighting an uphill battle, with the sun in your eyes too, against decades of established language, dominated by patriarchal norms.

Unfortunately, your noble idea exists only in your head, as your very use of that patriarchal norm consolidates its privilege within our language structures.

You won't win - you'll just look unPC, and come up against arguments like the above.

K


Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


17 posted 11-07-2003 03:13 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sometimes, there are worse things than looking unPC, K. In my opinion, bad writing is usually one of those things.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that our choice of language greatly influences our way of thinking, and the elimination of grossly prejudicial labels helps, in at least some small way, to eliminate prejudice. But it has always been much easier to eliminate words than to change them.

Psychologists tell us that gender differentiation is built into human behavior at the lowest possible levels. Meet another person ever so briefly, on the street or at a party, and you may not later recall their name, their face, or what they were wearing or doing, but you will always be able to tell us their gender. Gender seemingly implants itself on our psyche when nothing else about a person does. Not surprisingly, then, our languages reflect our preoccupation with sex. It's almost impossible to talk about anything of substance without stumbling across gender specific words.

Should we bow to the PC movement and use awkward constructs like he/she or s/he? Not, in my opinion, if we care about the real intent behind our words. Such devices immediately yank the reader out of the world we are building for them and dilute the message we are trying to impart. Sure, gender equality is important. But you CANNOT explore two important themes without both suffering. Throwing an awkward construct into your carefully crafted words, just to appease the activists, is akin to slapping the reader up side the head.

I think we can choose to be politically correct or we can choose to be good writers, but even the best among us can rarely be both.

My mistress' or master's eyes are nothing like the sun,
Coral is far more red than his or her lips' red.
If snow be white, why then his or her breasts are dun;
If hair be wires, black wires grow on his or her head.
I have seen roses damasked, red and white,
But no such roses see I in his or her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress or master reeks.
I love to hear him/her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound.
I grant I never saw a god or goddess go:
My mistress or master when s/he walks treads on the ground.
And yet by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any he or she belied with false compare

Sonnet 130 - William Shakespeare



Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


18 posted 11-07-2003 03:18 AM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

I must be really slow... because I read that sonnet about four times and the only thing I found fishy was how bad Shakespeare's meter was.  

On that note, I should get some sleep.  

Faith is a fine invention
When gentlemen can see
But microscopes are prudent
In an emergency.
~~~Emily Dickinson

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


19 posted 11-07-2003 11:05 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How about:

"Because I could not stop for Death,
He or she kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.
  
We slowly drove, he or she knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labor, and my leisure too,
For his or her civility.
...

Emily Dickinson  



And if we are going to make issues, how come people always say "he or she" instead of "she or he"?  Is it right to put the "he" before the "she"?  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-07-2003 11:42 AM).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


20 posted 11-07-2003 03:33 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Ess - Sometimes I say she or he. I hear others doing so as well. I admit - particularly when I was at university. Actually, sometimes people just said 'she' which I think is just as bad, and achieves nothing.

Ron - I agree with some of what you say:

quote:
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that our choice of language greatly influences our way of thinking, and the elimination of grossly prejudicial labels helps, in at least some small way, to eliminate prejudice.


Yes, I agree with that.

This:

quote:
Gender seemingly implants itself on our psyche when nothing else about a person does. Not surprisingly, then, our languages reflect our preoccupation with sex. It's almost impossible to talk about anything of substance without stumbling across gender specific words.


I agree with to a degree. However, there are many cultures/societies when this cannot apply. An example: In some parts of Albania it's traditional that if a family bears all female children, the eldest shall assume wholly the identity of a son. To the degree that the child becomes male for the rest of his life. It is not merely a case of cross-dressing and assuming male roles. He is referred to as male by his family, peers and other members of the community, he is thought of as male. There is no translation process - ie, it is not usual for the community to think 'oh there goes Jane who is now Bob.' It's just, 'oh there goes Bob.' Bob the once-Jane may even marry...and then adopt a member of the extended family as a child (a son of course).

Your example of Shakespeare's sonnet is completely off I'm afraid. Can't agree at all. There are two problems that I can see.

One - using a poem for an example that was written centuries ago cannot work for the simple fact that the cultural standards of the day cannot translate to modern Western life today - Shakespeare's society was, at the root of its structures, patriarchal and misogynist. Therefore, your argument is out of place for this particular work.

Two - Shakespeare's sonnets concerned three principle players. The grim reaper/death, the lover and the mistress/dark lady. His sonnets were gender specific. In this case, the lover, who is male, is reflecting on the dark lady. Therefore, it would make no sense to substitute the gender specific references to a female, with male references.

K

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


21 posted 11-07-2003 07:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Having never visited Albania, Kamla, I'll have to take your word for it, but would nonetheless remain skeptical. Gender isn't a "choice" we can make, else I suspect there would be many socially stigmatized individuals who would gladly make new choices. Nor, I believe, is the way we think about gender so easily changed. There have been documented sex-change operations at birth, where a disfigured male baby was surgically made into a female, and the parents were encouraged to treat the child as a girl. Turns out they over-compensated, because in the end, they could not forget the dichotomous gender of their daughter. They didn't treat her as a girl, but rather as a boy who had been turned into a girl.

Still, even if Albanians are quite different from Americans, your story really only proves that our human preoccupation with gender is both deeply rooted and often grossly illogical. Why couldn't the oldest daughter simply assume the responsibilities of a family leader, rather than the social role of male? A culture where gender can be reversed proves nothing, Kamla. Show me one where gender does not semantically exist?

And, yea, the sonnet was not a good example, nor was it meant as one. It was a joke. It's interesting though that you would call Shakespeare's sonnets "gender specific," while simultaneously referencing the grim reaper/death?  

The sonnets are, of course, gender specific as you say. But, so is everything else in our language. All attempts to introduce a genderless human pronoun have, so far, failed dismally.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


22 posted 11-08-2003 02:09 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

When we indicate gender with a pronoun connected to a word like "this one" or "this person" it shouldn't say more than "this as a general example of one/ a person" (which inevitably has gender) not "this as particularization of the gender."
If the writer is haughty of masculinity or femininity that shall protrude thickly and obviously elsewheres.  But at least for a bawbling pronoun I believe the author deserves the benefit of the reader's doubt.  Just my headachy opinion.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-08-2003 02:45 AM).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


23 posted 11-08-2003 12:00 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

This thread Brad started in the English Workshop Forum addresses that very subject. I thought it was quite interesting.

Sorry. Never mind. The link advocating the use of the "singular they" seems to be missing.

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (11-08-2003 12:02 PM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


24 posted 11-08-2003 12:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"They" is grammatically wrong but at least makes an end to some people's issues about "he" or "she".

Unfortunatly some difficulties may arise if you don't closely pay attention or if If you are late to the conversation and the "this one" or "a person" or "when somebody" phrases have gone by and people are at the they's and them's and their's, you may take those for the plural, indeed. "take their luggage"  "tell them the password" "attack them"
"They must remind them they should take them to his office" (a person, people, or things?)  If you lose track, you may be in trouble    

Personally I still like "he's" and "she's"  But then I have always been a bit oldfashioned.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-08-2003 04:00 PM).]

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Do we really look at writing like this?   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors