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QjQ
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0 posted 09-02-2003 09:30 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

I'm confused and asking this question for comments.

Does belonging to a clique Improves ones character?



BluesSerenade
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1 posted 09-02-2003 11:12 PM       View Profile for BluesSerenade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for BluesSerenade

That's the way to break the ice!!!

Touche' QJ~     

You're kidding, right????
QjQ
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2 posted 09-02-2003 11:18 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

No i'm not kidding ,,I'm asking a question?

         

[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-02-2003 11:25 PM).]

Ringo
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3 posted 09-02-2003 11:29 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Belonging to a clique definately shapes one's character, however,I'm not sure if it definately improves one's character.
Example would be Farmer Ted (michael Anthony Hall's character in 16 Candles). He was the king of the dweebs. It definately shaped his personality... did it improve it??? I don't know. I am a member of the Marine Corps League. Not only has it shaped my personality, however it has also improved me tremendously. Luckily, there is no one on here that can remember me back then top gtestify to the changes. The fact is that in this case, the "clique" I run with DID change me for the better.
I guess the answer would be that it all depends on the clique.

We are all equal but we’re individually different
and able to reach the impossible if we try.

QjQ
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4 posted 09-02-2003 11:37 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

I see in yout case that joining a clique inproved your character that's great.

thanks ringo,,   however i'm still confused by the definations posted here.


clique

\Clique\, n. [F., fr. OF. cliquer to click. See Click, v. i.] A narrow circle of persons associated by common interests or for the accomplishment of a common purpose; -- generally used in a bad sense.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


clique

\Clique\, v. i. To To associate together in a clannish way; to act with others secretly to gain a desired end; to plot; -- used with together.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


clique

n : an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University




         



[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-03-2003 12:00 AM).]

Kaoru
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5 posted 09-03-2003 01:51 AM       View Profile for Kaoru   Email Kaoru   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kaoru

I think improving one's character should include more than a "clique" of friends..

Sharing interests? That's fun..but

where will you learn the new stuff that way?

QjQ
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6 posted 09-03-2003 02:21 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Thank you Kaoru for your reply,,,

         

Sunshine
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7 posted 09-03-2003 10:11 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


Establish the type of clique, and where one's character is when first joining...and we can go from there.
QjQ
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8 posted 09-03-2003 06:54 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

thank you "K"  but isn't a clique a clique?
by definition they all appear the same to me?

         

[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-03-2003 07:37 PM).]

Sunshine
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9 posted 09-04-2003 09:18 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Glenn, I have seen many forms of cliques, going all the way back to grade school.  They're everywhere, everyday.  While your definitions show "similar" uses of the words, still one definition shows "To associate together in a clannish way; to act with others secretly to gain a desired end; to plot" and then another, "an exclusive circle of people with a common purpose", which does not show any intent of "plotting" or any other devious equation.

Cheerleaders, football teams, computer experts, when gathered as a group, discussing a common interest, could very well be perceived as a "clique".  When I gather with my legal professional peers, we could be a large "clique", as we are sharing a common bond, understanding, and interest.

All of the above could "improve one's character".

However, when used in a negative sense, i.e., to "plot", would denote that it would be a lowering of character or devious actions of several characters together.

So, again, I take you back to my original question to you:  "Establish the type of clique, and where one's character is when first joining...and we can go from there."

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (09-04-2003 09:19 AM).]

QjQ
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10 posted 09-04-2003 10:11 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Does belonging to a clique Improves ones character?
-------------------------------------------
The above was and still is my question?

from my studies (dictionary) a clique is only people of a common interest, and they only share this interest within, therefore it appears that only those in the clique receive the benefits and those not are deprived of those benefits, so i ask again does a clique improve charactor? I don't believe it matters the type of clique that one is involved with, all cliques hold a common interest, excluding others from that interest, So should i seek a clique to improve my character? or remain independent as i presently am?

            

Sunshine
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11 posted 09-04-2003 12:12 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Now that you've added to the question, I would say, only you could know, by trial and error, of either being in one, or not.  I don't know that you can "join" a clique.  I think they "form" - by others labeling certain groups as such.  I never think of myself in a "clique" - and yet, someone else may assume just that.

I guess I don't have the answer, Glenn.
QjQ
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12 posted 09-04-2003 12:53 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Thank you "K" your Input on this subject has helped me to better understand the If's and but's and reasons for cliques, however in my best judgement I belive my independence gives me character that I can't be Influenced to make decisions that are not necessarily mine but made by a quorum for me.

Again I treasure your Input,
thank you
glenn

            



[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-04-2003 01:06 PM).]

Local Rebel
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13 posted 09-04-2003 02:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

We're all in the PIP clique!  

One may not consider themselves part of a clique -- but they are certainly part of an Oikos.  There is no escaping it -- unless you're on a desert island.

This is the best web info I've found -- which doesn't exactly correspond with other research I've read regarding numbers but it hits the concept pretty close:

quote:

Olkos: The World's Way of Forming Cell Groups For All

The oikoses each of us lives within are not large. We may know several dozen, even several hundred, people, but quality time spent with others is extremely limited - and only those to whom we devote quality time can be said to be a part of our oikos, our personal community.

Each of us has a primary group which includes some of our relatives and some of our friends who relate to us through work, recreation, hobbies, and neighbors. These are the people we talk to, relate to, and share with, for at least a total of one hour per week.

It is most unusual to find a person who has as many as 20 people in his or her oikos. For many years, I have surveyed the sizes of the oikoses of those attending my seminars and classes. Christians usually average nine people, and a large percentage of them had not developed a single new oikos relationship in the past six months!

Life is made up of endless chains of oikos connections. Every person is already entwined in these relationships. If people are accepted into an oikos, they feel a security that does not exist when meeting a stranger.

In every culture of the world, the intimacy of oikos connec­tions is considered to be sacred. The Chinese have a special word for close friendships, and such bonds are considered to be a sacred thing. In Argentina, I was shown a gourd and a metal tube with holes on one end of it for the drinking of maté tea. A most intimate oikos custom in their culture is sharing the maté by drinking from the same tube. Usually, the ceremony is limited to family members. The Argentine who explained this to me said, "Recently, I went to visit a friend who was sharing a gourd of maté with his wife and children. He paid me the highest honor by inviting me to participate."

Olkoses Vary With Emotional Strength

In Pastor and Parish - A Systems Approach, E. Mansell Pattison has examined this basic structure of human life in depth. He has sought to describe contemporary oikos relationships in psychological and sociological terms:

I have found that the normal person has about twenty to thirty people in his or her psychosocial system... There are typically about five or six people in each subgroup of family, relatives, friends, and work-recreation-church associates. About 60 percent of the people in this normal system interact with each other.

In contrast, neurotics have only ten to twelve people in their psychosocial systems. Their systems include people who may be dead or live far away.... Only about 30 percent of the system is interconnected. It is as if the neurotic, having a variety of individual relationships, is like the hub of a wheel having spokes that radiate outward but are not connected by a rim. Thus the neurotic has an impoverished psycho-social system.

For psychotics we get a third pattern. Here there are only four to five people in the system. The interpersonal relations are ambivalent and nonreciprocal. The system is 90 to 100 percent interconnected. The psychotic is caught in an exclusive nonpermeable small system that is binding, constructive, and destructive.

Since the world began, men have always lived in oikoses. Every single culture, without exception, has them. The security of the individual is in the affirmation received by those who are significant in the oikos. In the earliest hours of childhood, the mother is the one who provides affirmation by her presence and her attention. As the child develops, this affirmation is received, or not received, by the other household members. Then the school teacher becomes a part of the oikos, and later it becomes the adolescent's oikos group which must approve him. In the workplace, affirmation is tied to promotions and raises in salary.

Each oikos becomes a part of a larger social structure. Every human being lives in a special, tiny world, often being forced to relate to people who are forced upon him or her by oikos structures. Today, the hurts of being thrust into a home where the mother is an alcoholic or the father is a daughter molester composes a significant ministry for cell group churches.

As you read this, consider the implications of this in your own life. Take a moment to write down the names of all the people you spend one full hour each week sharing with in a direct, person-to-person manner. (This hour can be accumulated a minutes at a time, scattered over seven days, but it must be regular-and it must be face to face.)

Studies of American family life indicate that the typical daddy spends only seven minutes a day in direct communication with each of his children - a total of 49 minutes per week. That's not enough time to honestly include them in his oikos.

The overpowering impact of a limited few upon each of our lives must be considered. For example: who are the significant others in your own life, whose approval or disapproval is impor­tant to you? (I have counseled with those who are still trying to please a disapproving father, who has been dead for years.) Who do you fear may reject you, and who do you look to for affirma­tion? Meditating upon one's own oikos can bring great insights!



from http://www.shareonhousechurch.net/html/resources/Book-_About_Oikos_-_by_Ralph_Neighbour.html
QjQ
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14 posted 09-04-2003 02:26 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Local Rebel,, Thank you for your input however I have no more interest in knowing about a organised group that shares only their common interest amongst a choosen few, I shall remain independent and free of such.

QjQ  glenn


            

[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-04-2003 02:27 PM).]

Ron
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15 posted 09-04-2003 02:26 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
from my studies (dictionary) a clique is only people of a common interest, and they only share this interest within, therefore it appears that only those in the clique receive the benefits and those not are deprived of those benefits, so i ask again does a clique improve charactor?

I think we should all hope for that possibility, Glenn. Your studies, after all, would indicate that we all grew up in one. Rarely is there a more exclusive clique than that of family.

LR, forgive me, but that is simplistic to the point of deception. We are now to measure the quality of human relationships by the minute?
QjQ
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16 posted 09-04-2003 02:37 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Thanks Ron

Now I'm really confused? I was unaware that my family was a clique? It has always been my beleif that blood was thicker than water and thats why my family stuck togeather, or at least one of many reasons.  

            

[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-04-2003 09:47 PM).]

Ron
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17 posted 09-04-2003 09:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Glenn, none of the three definitions you offered examined the motivation behind a clique. A group of people with like interests, come together for a common purpose, with often selfish goals, sounds a lot like a family to me. A pretty good family, in fact. Because, yea, blood is thicker than water.

But I think love, of any kind, is also thicker than water. Thicker, even, than blood.

The ties that bind a group of people are far more important, I think, than how exclusive they are, or how secretive they are, or even whether their goals are selfish. Clique is a loaded term, and the real definition depends on the viewpoint of the person using it. There are tons of words like that if you look for them. I'm a patient man, but he's a procrastinator. I'm a neat person, but she's anal. I have a group of supportive friends, but those others are just a clique.

Maybe we should change your question a little?

If a group relationship can improve one's character, is it still a clique?  
QjQ
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18 posted 09-04-2003 10:22 PM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

If a group relationship can improve one's character, is it still a clique?
________________________________________________

So does one who is independent of groups and who makes there own unbiased decisions lose character or popularity within such group?



            

[This message has been edited by QjQ (09-04-2003 10:27 PM).]

Local Rebel
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19 posted 09-05-2003 12:51 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So forgiven Ron, although -- I'm not sure for what though-- we've never been bashful about opining round these parts.  

I'd say that we might have a basis for an agreement with the exception of the word quality.  (And deception.)

If I describe gravity (if I may use a Ron-like analogy ) as an invisible force that will cause a ball to fall towards the earth when released from my hand -- that's simplistic.  But it's accurate.  And it's sufficient for living life day-to-day on Terra Firma.

One of the drawbacks of discussing a complex issue, that is seemingly just common sense, on a bbs is that its difficult to do it in a few paragraphs and maintain interest.  No doubt the few that I posted would have the majority of PIP yawning in a heartbeat.

I'm not particularly fond the way this author writes nor the gentleman Pattison that he quotes (imagine categorizing any group of people as 'normal' -- everyone is neurotic -- it's just a matter of degree) but, due to limited search time this was the best page that I could hit... imagine my surprise when I did a google on psychotic oikos and the very top page was -- MINE!  It does put forth the fundamentals of the psychosocial system though as I studied them in management training (more on that path in a second).

The word quality is probably one of the most abused in the English language -- but, I think I'm safe in assuming that your usage here means the measure of a relationships' benefits, caring, etc.  And I think that's an appropriate usage of the term -- just not a proper application for synopsis.  If you used the word 'significant' in place of quality then you'd have it.  The likely source for confusion here is the author's use of the word 'quality time' when he sets up the concept in the first paragraph.  

He later appropriately points out though that there are some people in our oikos that are forced upon us.  The alcoholic mother, the daughter-molesting father.  If writing bad poetry was criminalized and I was justifiably convicted and sentenced to a jail cell with Charlie Manson he would be a significant member of my oikos along with the prison guards -- hardly 'quality' human relationships -- but significant.

As I pointed out in my above post these numbers don't really jive either with my management training.  I wish I could lay my hands on the appropriate material but I can't even really remember which source it came from -- my best guess right now is Harvard Business School... but, I digress... I thought it was interesting that the quoted study looks at human interactions over the period of a week -- probably due to the fact that this is written from the perspective of the impact of the psychosocial system on evangelism and meta-church building.  

The management focus looks at the oikos on a daily basis and basically suggests, in a nut shell, that any manager that tries to directly supervise the accomplishments of more than twelve people is NUTS.  As I pointed out in the other thread this is due to how many waking hours in a day there are.. period.  So, yeah -- significant relationships are limited due to minutes.  The American business paradigm being what it is -- that employees--including and maybe especially managers-- do not exist outside of business life I found it odd that they would say 12 is a number that can be managed -- if you add in a few family members that require 'quality' interaction every day and maybe a friend or extended family member that number goes down... I found my own sweet spot to be around 6.

I can get really complex with this in effecting cultural change in an organization utilizing the natural oikoses? (not sure how to pluralize that) that will form and it's a very effective tool -- but -- yawn!  I've bored myself  

One thing that did catch my attention from the referenced work though was the mention that some people have dead people in their oikos -- a notion that never occured to me having studied it from a business perspective -- but -- one to which I can relate since I am one of those people.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (09-05-2003 12:55 AM).]

Essorant
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20 posted 09-05-2003 02:23 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

A  wisdom of  owls.  

A pride of lions.

An exaltation of larks.

A  richness of  martens.  

An  ostentation of  peacocks.  

and...

A clique of poets?  



[This message has been edited by Essorant (09-05-2003 03:41 AM).]

serenity blaze
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21 posted 09-05-2003 02:29 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"A Ron-like analogy"

made me smile wide...

but Ess?

Indeed.

"a clique of poets" was and remains there right on the money. But it IS a grand tradition...

Thanks for the smiles. All of you.

Gawd I love this place...
QjQ
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22 posted 09-05-2003 02:29 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Thank You Essoran for your input,,enjoyed your thoughts,,

            

QjQ
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23 posted 09-05-2003 02:31 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Thank You serenity blaze for your interest and comments,,

            

Essorant
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24 posted 09-05-2003 03:45 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Why not a Passion of Poets?

or.....a Serenity of Poets??  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (09-05-2003 03:47 AM).]

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