How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 PIP is not perfect   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

PIP is not perfect

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


0 posted 08-25-2003 02:40 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

There's a disturbing trend among alley threads that target aspects of PIP, the love it or leave it response. Most critiques are met with almost hostile replies such as:
*find another site
*don't you know how hard Ron works
*pay for the webspace
*become a mod
and my favourite
* NOT ME!
Now if the opening comment is hostile i can understand this but often it's the most harmless remarks. You'll see very few people agree, and who would, considering the hostility the originator of the thread is often met with.

Pip is full of problems all forums are, it's not a reflection of RON or the mods, with 7000 or so members there's obviously going to be problems. The most distrubing aspect of the responses is that a few of the mods or people responding to the threads often agree with the comments to me in private conversations or have dozens of critiques of their own.

So why the silence? Why the turn of opinion?
Worse still is the abundance of pseudonyms that I have learned of over the course of my year here.
The common excuse is that they create them so that they can make more honest or controversial stances behind them.

I thought PIP was an open exchange of ideas, why the fears and masks? Are we not adults?
One wouldn't think so because one of the other problems with pip is the cliques.
" i don't respond to her because she doesn't respond to mine"
" I used to read him but then he broke up with so and so"
Hmmm and here i was thinking it was about the poetry?

It's sad what goes on behind the scenes at PIP but sadder still that people take offense to anyone who should point them out.
So take a good look at things and yourselves before you meet complainers with the same old song and dance. and think what you want to think about me.

Ron I adore the site I'm grateful you give us the space to post and chat but I'm sure you know you're not perfect and neither is the site and this thread is just an honest reflection of what i've seen in my time here. I'd simply like it to be it's best and i think honesty and poetry are the keys

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-25-2003 02:42 PM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


1 posted 08-25-2003 04:37 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Raph--forgive me I'm a little foggy on this one--I'm not quite sure if there's a problem here you'd like addressed or what.

Um...Oooooooo-kay.

Pip isn't perfect.

I'm following ya.

Um.

Now, what?

Grin. Sorry, I sounded just like a MAN, didn't I? (I just heard myself saying, "I didn't expect you to DO anything about it, I just needed somebody to LISTEN.") I say that to men a lot.

So...if you want to DO something about it, I'm open for suggestions.

But if you are just flamin' and complainin'--that's what the Alley is for I suppose.

Sometimes I just come in here to growl or scream.

It's all good. But apparently not perfect.

*chuckle*

(Raph is gonna wanna pulverize me now.
serenity ducks and runs...)
Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
United States


2 posted 08-25-2003 04:41 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Aenimal,
Well there are a lot of good observations in this post. I have on occasion probably been guilty of some of these things. But I do believe that when certain members get over the edge defensive that suggesting they find another site is not bad advice. However, I for one could have stated such a position in a more diplomatic manner.

It does intrigue that you did not sign you name to this post after the comments about masks. Just curious...

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


3 posted 08-25-2003 04:55 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

You can duck in behind me if you'd like, serene one... I'll stand and take the shots anyday.  Nobody ('cept one kindly wizard) has been here longer than I, so I guess I've seen it all.  

Our site has grown since the spring of 1999, Raph - but our philosophies have remained constant. Nothing about our commitment to writing has changed one iota.  Nothing about our support for our members has changed.  Nothing about our caring for each and every one's literary growth has altered even a smidgeon... Nothing about the way we handle "issues" is different.  

There are just more of them...

The only thing that has changed is the number and the complexion of our membership-at-large.  By definition, the membership has to be made up of "people."  Think about it.  Where there are people, there are agreements and there are diversities of opinion... there are happy people and there are sad/angry people... there is serenity (she's right behind me) and there is chaos... I could go on and on.

I'm not touching the "Ron's not perfect" line - Because he'll only chastise me later for my opinion on that one...

We're a community of PEOPLE, Raph... That means we have to pick and choose our friends.  Sometimes we choose wisely, and sometimes not.  That's life.  It's also "cyber-life" - Isn't it?...
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


4 posted 08-25-2003 05:13 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

We interrupt this thread for a special report. Authorities are investigating the disappearance of "serenity blaze" who was last seen in the custody of two unidentified men wearing black trench coats. She was reportedly placed into a white volga, which was last seen turning down a side street marked "no entrance." Her family has not of yet released a statement, but we expect to have a comment from her husband as soon as he drinks a few beers after work.

We choose not to add to the speculation that serenity had of late become obsessed with Russian authors, or if there is any connection between her choice of reading material and her recent disappearance.

Stay tuned for a full report at five.

(This post is intended for amusement purposes ONLY and not intended to replace your newspaper or local newscast.)
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


5 posted 08-25-2003 05:40 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Shhhhhhh....... Be vewy, vewy, qwiet... Stay serene... STAY, I say....
S Arthur Grey
Senior Member
since 03-19-2001
Posts 727
woven by a poet's loom


6 posted 08-25-2003 06:46 PM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

Serenity?

"She was reportedly placed into a white volga"

What the???  There is that long river in Europe, but . . .


(Darn, punch line got punched . . . er . . .erased!  Didn't know that was one of "the words", Ron.)


[This message has been edited by S Arthur Grey (08-25-2003 07:47 PM).]

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


7 posted 08-25-2003 06:47 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Volvo?  vroom vroom...

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (08-25-2003 06:50 PM).]

Legion
Member
since 07-20-2003
Posts 82


8 posted 08-25-2003 07:30 PM       View Profile for Legion   Email Legion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Legion


Aenimal,

I agree almost entirely, the only part Iím not sure about is the name changing thing, I've had no fear whatsoever voicing my opinion over the years though Iíve done it using many different names. Not out of fear but simply because that was the name I was using at the time.

Craig+
S Arthur Grey
Senior Member
since 03-19-2001
Posts 727
woven by a poet's loom


9 posted 08-25-2003 07:42 PM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

Aenimal,

A couple of comments, if you don't mind.
(I've been around for about half of PIP's existence and since a time when there were about half as many "members".  But I don't know what goes on "behind the scenes" because I haven't been there.)
If nothing else, this place is noticably human, which surprises me sometimes, given its "virtual" limitations.  That means there is a lot of human "stuff" here.  Arrogance, exibitionism, cowardice, honesty, passion, love and hate, among other things.   It can be annoying if you let it, but I try to enjoy it.
I've checked out other poetry sites, and I'm a member of some, but I don't see a reason to leave this one just yet.
Cliques?  Sure, but they are even tougher on some other sites.  They don't need you?  Ignore 'em.  Just keep writing.
Some folks find a huge amount of time to be here and it becomes a noticable chunk of their lives.  Their personalities are going to show.

"Worse still is the abundance of pseudonyms . . ."
I can't speak for others, but I will tell you that I have several reasons for using this one.  Among them is the hope that the poetry I submit under this name gets read for the poetry, not for another name.   Vain hope, probably, and it will wear out in time.  I also need another voice, and that is a reason I can not easily explain to you, especially if you have never wanted to be someone else.
If you consider it hiding, well, so be it.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum81/HTML/000731.html

I would not have resonded to this thread if I did not respect your work and hope that you stick around.
(Oh, and by the way, if you find another neat site, let me know . . .)

Yours,
s.a.g.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


10 posted 08-25-2003 08:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I'll have to stand behind Serenity....not that the view isn't wonderful there! I simply don't see many traces of these problems you seem to feel is in abundance here. As far as saying "If you don't like it, leave it" I can assure you that mods will go many miles before using that line. They try to reason, to please, to explain, to offer alternatives....a variety of avenues. When none of them work and it's obvious the complaints are for complaints sake, then the only thing left to say is, "There's the door if you don't like it", and, believe me, that hasn't happened very often.

As far a cliques, I challenge you to point us in the direction of any poetry site on the web that doesn't have them. it's human nature. It's also human nature not to associate with those you find offensive. Don't expect PIP, or any other organization, to be different. It ain't gonna happen.

Multiple names? Why not? WHo does it hurt? It appears you seem to feel that it indicates some nefarious reason....doesn't have to at all. Some poets use different names for the different styles of poetry they write. Some use different names so their husbands will not get bent out of shape at harmless flirtations in replies. There are a variety of reasons to use other names that have nothing to do with underhanded dealings.

It's easy to make blanket statements or accusations. Your points would carry more validity if you would care to share examples of what you are trying to say. Of course PIP is imperfect....but is it imperfect to a point that it's imperfectness needs to be discussed as a problem that needs to be solved or else? I need examples of that....otherwise the accusations become nothing more than ramblings.....
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


11 posted 08-25-2003 09:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"I'm back."

sheesh, I just went to happy hour, and see how rumors start?

(btw, a volga is a volva with an accent)

and?

*battin' eyelashes* @ Michael*

Now, now, Raph.

If the sum of is the whole of its parts, we'd have to first correct the flaws of the parts in order to ever hope to achieve perfection.

And if you hope to find perfection, I abashedly admit, don't stand behind me--grin, that view may be lovely to some, but hardly perfect.

and s.a.g.? EXHIBITIONISM?

Not here, not MOI!!!





Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


12 posted 08-25-2003 09:35 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

I agree with you Aenimal, people are human though. I for one am glad I am perfect. slience..HAHAHAHAHHAHA.  

I just don't get the point why people feel the need to post if they hate this site.  just leave.  That has been my only problem.

As for name changes, I have had a slew of them, okay three or four.  But only because I never can remember my name or password when I get a new comp or reformat.  I finally use a addy that I can remember.

Is this site perfect?  nothing in this world is perfect, except me. HAHAHAHAHHA okay, okay, on a seriouse note; when you put this many people together there is bound to be conflict.  I have been here for oh awhile, and I still can't make any friends LOL, maybe it's because I stink??  hahaha. anyhoo, I respect your opinion and you have some very good points.  
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


13 posted 08-25-2003 09:40 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Karen the point is that just what it says in the title and in the statement

Larry sign my name? you mean my real name? Raphael Giuffrida what's that mean alot of people know me. The masks i'm talking about are psuedonyms

Nan I agree with you we have to choose our friends, at the same time it's a poetry site and friend or not certain poets should be recognized by talent not by cliques. My argument is a simple one. Pip is not perfect. No big surprise we all know this. My beef is that should anyone point this out there almost always met with some hostility as if they should keep it under the rug. My problem is that though some have openly discussed these problems with me in private they have turn quiet in here or worse state their opinions under a psuedonym.

legion it only bothers when they mask themselves behind those names not the names themselves

Sir Arthur I'm not disagreeing with you on any of those points. That was a point I made in my intitial post. That it can't be perfect because its a large forum and the huamn element always causes problems. My problem is that once these problems are brought up they are often met with hostility and a gang mentality of how dare you say that. If the originating post was hostile as we've seen before i understand it. When someone is merely pointing something out i don't. And this DOES happen.
As for the names have as many as you want but if you're going to add to a thread or voice a strong opinion don't hide behind them so that nobody knows where its coming from
As for the cliques they don't bother me none of this thread has anything to do with my work but i've seen the underbelly heard the stories and i find it disgraceful how some 'adults' have acted. Poets no less

sigh Balladeer did i ever once mention that this was the only site with problems? The fact is this IS the best site and that's why in closing i thanked Ron and said I adore this site.
My point Balladeer is not the fact that the problems exist i repeat My point  is not the fact that the problems exist..but that once they're pointed out they're often met with hostility.
And again, it's not the number of names that bother me it's how they are used

"...but is it imperfect to a point that it's imperfectness needs to be discussed as a problem that needs to be solved or else?" classic balladeer..did i ever say or else?
Should i use names and give examples to alienate certain mods and users. Isn't that aggressive or hostile? Isn't that what i'm arguing about in the first place.
Balladeer I respect you as a poet but I've seen you're version of arguing your points and for you to come out and call mine ramblings is completely ludicrous and a semi-personal attack but then it's not the first time from you  

And k again i think the POINT was missed. I'm not trying to achieve perfection I'm trying to achieve a place where people can comment or point out imperfections without getting slagged, a place where opinions can be expressed without fear or having to hide behind names. and where people and mods alike can be as honest in the forums as they are to me in private discussions

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-25-2003 09:41 PM).]

Nightshade
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 08-31-2001
Posts 14673
just out of reach


14 posted 08-25-2003 09:40 PM       View Profile for Nightshade   Email Nightshade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nightshade's Home Page   View IP for Nightshade

Did I miss something?!!
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


15 posted 08-25-2003 09:43 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Miah thanks and yes all forums have problems no doubt its the human element grins

Chris its seems a few missed something the point but talk to balladeer he'll tell you it's because i can't argue
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


16 posted 08-25-2003 10:18 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, Raph.

I assumed your point was your topic line:

Pip is not perfect.

I think we all agree on that.

I simply asked if you were here to rant, or to propose a solution.

So I ask you Raphael, how would YOU, personally address these problems?

All kidding aside.

What do YOU suggest?

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


17 posted 08-25-2003 10:30 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

sigh i'd hoped the thread covered that.
I would hope criticisms if not hostile would not be met with hostility.
That these problems we all know exist can be discussed and hopefully solved if possible.
That people not be afraid to voice their opinions
That people who do not voice them behind the scenes or worse behind names.

And at the end of this most of all I wish people would understand I L3VE PIP and would like to see it grow and the poetry become a key factor in it as well


Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


18 posted 08-25-2003 10:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Never let it be said that I would claim you can't argue!! You're very good at it

My problem is that I take many things literally...

Pip is full of problems all forums are  FULL of problems? Does that not sound like a bit of overkill?

The common excuse is that they create them so that they can make more honest or controversial stances behind them. excuse...not reason? Anyone who says that must be making an excuse instead of giving what they consider a valid reason?


I thought PIP was an open exchange of ideas which, by inference, means that you believe it's not?


one of the other problems with pip is the cliques. Since you acknowledge that all sites have that same characteristic, why is it a problem with PIP, as opposed to a normal condition shared by all sites?

It's sad what goes on behind the scenes at PIP I congratulate you on your complete knowledge about the sad goings on "behind the scenes". You make it sound like a Mafia meeting or a convention of Hitler's generals. That's what your words say. Is that the thought you intend to convey?

So take a good look at things and yourselves before you meet complainers with the same old song and dance  here I suppose you just felt like resorting to good old insulting....

So, yes, with all due respect I consider statements like this to be a ramble, which is not necessarily insulting. It serves a purpose, I suppose, by letting those who didn't realize how sad our behind-the-scenes dealings really are so they can be equally as offended and it also alerts some to the fact that we are filled with problems, which they may not have been aware of. It also serves a purpose by allowing you to get some gripes off your chest, which makes it a valid effort. That's what the Alley is for.....

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


19 posted 08-25-2003 10:37 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Raph?

Was I hostile?

Honestly, if I were, I'd really like that pointed out to me as well.

You remember that movie, "Coal Miner's Daughter"?

There is a scene in the movie, where a disc jockey says to Loretta and "Dew"--

"That dumb hillbilly thing ya'll do--that ain't no act."

and Dew replies:

"If you knew Loretta, you'd know that ain't no act."

sigh.

It ain't no act, Raph.

I'm genuinely befuddled--not hostile.
Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


20 posted 08-25-2003 10:56 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

I love the part in that movie where she thought "Horny" was bologna. A-hahahah!. Love that movie.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


21 posted 08-25-2003 10:57 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Miah?

I'll be your friend.

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


22 posted 08-25-2003 11:02 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Balladeer it isn't overkill there is a list of problems and it's nothing that any large forum has so why is it a taboo to discuss them?
excuse/reason we arguing semantics now? The point is then, a common purpose for these name changes is to hide behind them instead of being honest and up front with their opinions.
balladeer no I dont believe it is as an open exchange as it could be. how open can it be if people are often afraid to speak out or have to hide behind pseudonyms to do so?
The clique is a major problem and one that shouldn't affect a poetry board. Here's why its one thing to have cliques in a discussion argument forum. But with poetry where the writing should be key its a sad thing. Writers and art should suffer these stupidities rather then growing and getting better?
As for the behind the scenes my dear balladeer i never said I've seen it all. But i have seen alot of infighting and heard tales or lived through them. My words convey them and nothing else. You're interpretations are your own.
Balladeer what's insulting about that unless you're a part of the hostile crowd? Did I say all mods, all users, all pseudonyms? Nope. The comment deer is in reference to those who DO attack and use the same old tired lines against a complaint.
And as for the ramble good for you deer youre intitled to your opinion and thats fine by me. It's funny how often if the opinion isn't in tune with yours it's a ramble though. hmm interesting
The problem is deer not that i'm not well spoken though you're entitled to think so if you wish. But that i'm trying to be  diplomatic. Thats why i didnt use names or specific examples.


Karen? Did i say you were hostile?
The hostility i speak of is again to those who answer alley thread in a certain way.
Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


23 posted 08-25-2003 11:05 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

serenity blaze, It's people like you that makes it worth getting up in the morning  

Everyone should have a friend like you.


Personally, I think it's sweet how everyone loves this place so much they defend it so whole heartly.  There are not many places out there like this. Good friends, good poetry and love.  It's good to disagree sometimes, it puts the spice in life. You should have seen me and my sister go at it as kids.  But... were still family no matter what. And.. she forgives me for scratching her eye and making her were a patch for 2 months.
S Arthur Grey
Senior Member
since 03-19-2001
Posts 727
woven by a poet's loom


24 posted 08-25-2003 11:09 PM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

Aenimal,

Not to belabor a point, but "will the real name stand up"?  It appears to me that some members have never used anything but a screen name.  Who are they?  Must you know?

s.a.g.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> PIP is not perfect   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors