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Passions in Poetry

PIP is not perfect

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serenity blaze
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50 posted 08-26-2003 07:35 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I like the idea too, Craig, um, Legion, um...

I tried an alias once, but I have enough trouble keeping myselves straight here on this side of the glass.

I registered once as "somebunny"--
but screwed up the email address.

Maybe I'll do it again under "somedumbbunny".

OH.

Just blew my cover, huh?



Nevermind.

But yes, I would be interested in an anonymous forum too.
Nightshade
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just out of reach


51 posted 08-26-2003 08:53 PM       View Profile for Nightshade   Email Nightshade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nightshade's Home Page   View IP for Nightshade


  

I don't want us all to disagree anymore.
Even if this is a good "discussion"..
it saddens me.
I'm gonna go hug my puppy.


  
Aenimal
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the ass-end of space


52 posted 08-26-2003 09:02 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ok so I won't bow out
First off Janet read your email you misinterpreted me it wasn't attitude and I apologize if it came off that way. Miah it wasn't you that set me off and I thank you for your comments.
because I was either too vague, people don't bother reading the whole thread through, or the poorest reading comprehension ever may i present


PIP is not perfect REDUX

First off I agree with Ron when he said:
"Pointing out imperfections, here or anywhere, is utterly futile unless you are also willing to offer solutions"

However should a poster fail to do so I think it's the duty of readers and mods to steer the conversation that way. To challenge the reader respectfully and together come up with ideas or solutions. It is my opinion that often this is NOT the case. Too often they are instead met with hostility or outright denial.

On the subject of Pseudonyms:
I was very clear throughout in stating that it's not pseudonyms I am against, it's people hiding behind pseudonyms for the purpose of taking more controversial stances and opinions. Not all people do this it was never the blanket statement and I even changed my wording to reflect that and the point was still missed.

Another point missed is that I don't have a problem with the existence of cliques. They will always exist in a forum this large there's nothing one can do about it. The problem I have with the cliques is that they spread into the poetry forum. Worse still there are cliques within the mod community. I find this a scary thought that a group of mods may possibly attack or ignore certain users. And of course you'll ask me for proof and examples but i've stated already i won't use names or examples but that I have seen it and had it admitted to by me from a few mods I have chatted with. I find that scary, if mods are the police of the site who polices the police and how can you?

Lastly in defense of my comment regarding PIP not being the open exchange of ideas it could be I'll say again. If someone feels the need to hide behind a pseudonym to challenge or critique Ron or the forum it could be fear. Fear of what you ask? Fear of being ostracized, fear of said hostility.
I'll give examples (cause i know deer luvs em) using this particular thread. I have recieved a few emails of support but two in particular said that while they agree with me they do not want to get caught up in the conversation because they fear being labled or attacked.

My goal is not perfection nor is it to undermine the site which I adore and need more than you can possibly know. But it's because i adore it that i think it's neccessary that things come to the surface and are discussed rather than denied or ignored. Will it iradicate the problems within PIP? Probably not, but my point is on raising awareness to problems that spread into the poetry forums where it should be about the words rather than the people.

Janet Marie
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since 01-22-2000
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53 posted 08-26-2003 09:23 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Raph...I got your email and I wrote you back, but it keeps coming back to me saying failed delivery status...
can I send it to another addy?
Email me if so...I will try resending again
later...maybe its hotmail or AOL messing up.
Sorry about the confusion.

You're going to hear my voice in the morning calling your name ...
and know my love and my desperation were one and the same.

J.Browne

Balladeer
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54 posted 08-26-2003 10:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Damn! Here I was finished with this thread and then you have to go and say such derragotory and incredible things I have to respond again...

Worse still there are cliques within the mod community. I find this a scary thought that a group of mods may possibly attack or ignore certain users. And of course you'll ask me for proof and examples but i've stated already i won't use names or examples but that I have seen it and had it admitted to by me from a few mods I have chatted with. I find that scary, if mods are the police of the site who polices the police and how can you?

What an incredible amout of bull that is. I feel embarrased for you to even use such tactics. Cliques within the mod group to "possibly attack" memebers. That is pure nonsense. Your references? These unnamed sources and secret conversations. You make incredible charges and then hide behind a "I'm not naming anybody or giving proof of such activity." Why? Because we might beat them up? A group of mods might form a vigilante squad with baseball bats or something? Good grief...I know what goes on in the mod forums and also what goes on in conversations between mods outside the forums. I personally have NEVER seen a more caring group of individuals who have shown so much consideration for the rights of others. They even drive ME crazy! It reaches the point sometimes where I am yelling "Stop being so nice to this jerk!" where someone has been given a multitude of chances and still shows utter disregard for the rules of the site....and yet the mods are still there trying to placate the individual, reason with him, do whatever it takes to keep him as a member. Everyone, even those few who have eventually been suspended, gets every chance in the world and no one holds grudges against them and no one "attacks" them. Show me one example otherwise...just one, where a member has been attacked in the poetry forums, instead of these third-party "someone told me" accusations. Mods don't epect thanks for the many hours they put in...but they sure as hell don't deserve someone accusing any of them of gestapo tactics, either.

it's people hiding behind pseudonyms for the purpose of taking more controversial stances and opinions.

How about one example of that happening....or is that another "my lips are sealed" categories? I've never seen a member take a pseudonym for that purpose...

If someone feels the need to hide behind a pseudonym to challenge or critique Ron or the forum it could be fear. Fear of what you ask? Fear of being ostracized, fear of said hostility.

I see nothing but a conditional sentence here..IF someone feels....it COULD be fear. What's that all about? Is it happening or not? Do they feel fear or not? I think you know the answer as well as I do.....no. Hostility? Ostracizing? Melodrama is running rampant here, I fear.

I'll give examples (cause i know deer luvs em) using this particular thread. I have recieved a few emails of support but two in particular said that while they agree with me they do not want to get caught up in the conversation because they fear being labled or attacked

You call saying you received e-mails giving an example? Anybody can say anything....

my point is on raising awareness to problems that spread into the poetry forums where it should be about the words rather than the people.

You mean you think it is productive to point out the problems that, by the responses to this thread seem to indicate, that you and a few select others are the only ones aware of? That is your idea of showing how much you feel for the place? To let as many people know as possible that evil in the mod forum and undercurrents of hostility and attack plans lie just beneath the surface of what appears to the majority to be a fairly happy and well-managed poetry forum?

There are no conspiracies, Ralph. The only "weapon" used here is that people respond to poetry or they don't...a weapon that you yourself use. Even with this thread, I think no differently of you that I did last week - yes, I know that doesn't matter to you. The point is that people CAN say anything here. Pepole have the right to express any feelings they have without fear of hearing hoofbeats at midnight or bear the nefarious consequences of the punishments you hint at.

Believe me, if I didn't think you were worth it, I wouldn't have wasted my time responding to you. As Ron intimidated, if you don't want problems to be present, don't be part of them....and, when enough people feel that way, there won't be any.

Write on.....


Kit McCallum
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55 posted 08-26-2003 11:13 PM       View Profile for Kit McCallum   Email Kit McCallum   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kit McCallum

Well, I can’t speak to all the various topics that have been brought up, because I find some of them far too vague.

I’ve been following this thread … and to be honest … I am completely baffled as to some of the various thinly veiled innuendos.  I could make guesses as to where the problems originate, but they would only be guesses.  

What I find sadly lacking over the last few months here at PiP is tolerance and respect … be it between individuals throughout the membership, or comments toward the moderators on the whole.

I suppose as a community grows larger, this is inevitable, and it is not surprising.  No … PiP is not perfect.  I don’t know any community that is.  We have realistic rules, ask that people follow them, tire ourselves out endlessly trying to keep a family atmosphere that the full membership will appreciate … and yes … there are many counteractive forces that dig on various plains to undermine the foundation.  Why?  I honestly don’t know.  Can we do anything about it?  I don’t know that either.  

I can simply hope that if what people want out of Passions is a place to call home, then the simple philosophy of “do unto others” can be their guiding motto.  “You reap only what you sow” … and if some individuals want to stir the pot in the background “whomever that may be” then so be it.  Those types become known eventually, become recognized for what they are and what they do, and sooner or later trip themselves up and embarrass themselves beyond repair.

The moderators I know … I trust deeply, and I know every moderator in this Passions group to varying degrees. If there’s a problem, then straight up ... someone contact me directly, because I’d like to be made aware of it.  To be honest, I’m a little tired of some of the background chatter I catch wind of, that can’t or won’t be substantiated by fact.
Aenimal
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56 posted 08-26-2003 11:25 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Of course balladeer there can't possibly be any of this going on the mod forums!! And of course you know everything that goes on with every single member of the mod community. And can the unnamed sources and proof bit, if you knew me, which you don't and thank god for that, you'd know i wouldn't have mentioned any of this if i didn't have some shred of proof or personal experience behind it. There are plenty of people who CAN vouch for my character and while you sit there and deride all my arguments let me tell you I find your manner of argument and your personality appalling, that you should throw stones. Ha!

Deer you don't see alot of things it seems and if in your years on the site and as a mod you haven't seen ANY examples of the things I've mentioned i question anything you have to add on the subject

The conditional sentence was placed there because of people like you. I i hadn't made it conditional you say that i meant it ALWAYS happens and its ALWAYs the case.

As for the emails again it's totally appaling, how am i supposed to sedn you the email and keep the writers anonymity? You'd say i wrote it myself.

And the biggest example of how little you know or think of me is to call me Ralph when my name is Raphael. I don't care if you think i'm worth the response. At least when Ron speaks he does so in a civilized and logical fashion, i can't help but go for the jugular with you. You attack and you are pompous and arrogant when you disagree. Read my comments to Ron's replies and see how civil i am. Question my integrity, question my proof, you know nothing about me. I'd tell you what I really think of you but you've already embarrassed me by making me get emotional rather than arguing rationally. i don't want to get kicked off a site i love and want to see grow and develop but i can honestly say you disgust me with your actions and what they bring out of me also

And i'll shut up and bow out of this for real this time *okay quit clapping

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (08-26-2003 11:45 PM).]

Balladeer
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57 posted 08-27-2003 12:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I will certainly apologize for getting the name wrong. That darned Serenity influenced me by calling you that several times without being corrected....

As far as what you think about me...it's not important. What is important is what is best for PIP....and we have different views on that....so we leave it at that. I shall now officially forsake all hopes of being named in your will....peace.
Aenimal
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58 posted 08-27-2003 12:14 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Deer if you read Serenity's post you'll notice she says Raph (ael) not Ralph guess you missed that which is astonishing considering your keen eye for details..grins Okay balladeer peace or something to that effect? Two smart@sses raging in the wind
QjQ
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59 posted 08-27-2003 12:24 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

I can only say that the posts on this thread have proven to me that what I have observed in other areas of this web site are now fact in my mind and no longer speculations. I strongly suggest that should anyone not understand what i have posted to go back to the beginning of this thread and read each and every post befor commenting.

     

[This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 01:17 AM).]

Balladeer
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60 posted 08-27-2003 12:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL!   ...and here I thought it was Serenity's world-famous inability to spell. Go figure...
Poet deVine
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61 posted 08-27-2003 12:57 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I've tried very hard to stay out of this thread. One, because I don't like confrontation. Two, because I don't like veiled statements alluding to secrets known only to certain people. If you have something against me, please just say it. I would rather you, or your unnamed source would speak honestly. Or shut up!

Stop spreading this virulent crap around and start writing! If feel an overwhelming need to talk about someone behind their back then don't tell us that you're doing it.

Get real here! Get honest! I dare you!

(I luv ya Raph!! And I understand why you're doing this. I'm not mad at you but at the situation. Email me if you want. But please don't tell anyone because they might thing we're in a clique together.)
QjQ
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62 posted 08-27-2003 01:31 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

Is it fact that a
clique is a clique
until it
becomes organized
and
then is it
a
conspiracy



     

[This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 01:34 AM).]

serenity blaze
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63 posted 08-27-2003 01:33 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze





Lucky for you guys I love to be teased as much as I love to do the actual teasing.

(Rumor has it I'm versatile that way.)

Now, I do have ONE costume left over. Either of you allergic to Latex?



Ron
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64 posted 08-27-2003 01:48 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

See what I mean about rules not working?

Good writers have very little trouble skirting rules, usually circumventing them easily with innuendo, sarcasm, and very thinly veiled contempt. Sometimes I think we could do with a few less good writers and a few more good people. Respect and tolerance are absolutely meaningless drivel when you're just agreeing with your best bud. They only really count for something when you're disagreeing with somebody you don't particularly like. They only really count for something when they cost you something. And apparently they don't really count for much around here. I'm honestly ashamed. Four years of doing this, and tonight I feel as if we've accomplished nothing. Nothing.

Do we really need proof of our imperfections? Look no farther than this thread. Do we really need proof of furtive unrest? One voice raised is proof enough, even were that one voice the only real unrest. I don't need proof, I don't need names, and I would never ask anyone to betray a confidence. By and large, I doubt there would be a single name on any list that would surprise me. By and large, I could probably list the more prominent names without any hints. People can't long hide behind aliases, people can't long hide behind cryptic affronts masquerading as poetry, and by and large, people can't even long hide behind private email because they forget they aren't the only ones with too little honor. I am not unaware of our imperfections. Nor am I usually daunted by them.

I choose instead, by and large, to ignore them. Someone brings me a rumor, I tell them it's a rumor and I really don't want to hear it. Someone writes me with a complaint about policy, I tell them to post it in the forums so everyone can be involved in discussing it, because frankly, if they don't have the guts to do that then I figure the issue wasn't really very important to them any way. I can't eliminate the imperfections. But I don't have to be a party to them, either.

Four years ago last month, these forums were private. The only way to find your way into this place was by invitation. It was just about this time four years ago, around late August, that we decided to open the doors a crack by posting a link on the main site. Diversity, we decided, was worth the inevitable costs of inviting strangers into our little haven. To be honest, those costs have been higher than I ever imagined. Hardly a month passes that I don't consider closing these doors and opening a new forum, a closed and private forum with only a large handful of invitations issued. Even that wouldn't eliminate the imperfections. But it sure would lessen them by a wide margin.

I haven't done that, I probably never will do that, and the reason is pretty much the same reason I choose to ignore those who insist on seeding unrest and contention. Nine hundred and ninety-nine of those troublemakers will inevitably and eventually fall by the way side. Out of a thousand, though, one will see the example being set by others here and will suffer an epiphany that will change their life. One of out a thousand will stop planting seeds of unrest and instead become an example that will, just maybe, change the life of one more individual in the next batch of a thousand. In four years, I've only see that happen a few times. But those few times have been enough to keep these doors open. Those few times more than justify the costs. Those few times are the reason I will continue, by and large, to ignore the other 999 for as long as I can. Because I can never know ahead of time which one of the thousand will pay the toll for all the rest.

Raph? I strongly urge to ignore them, too. By continuing to listen to their idle chatter, you validate everything they say. Until they have the courage to stand up and be counted, as you have chosen to do here today, their complaints will remain merely complaints, merely whining. The best way to solve some problems is to refuse to be a part of the problem.

There is no way, short of force, to abruptly change the direction of a community. Change, if it's to occur, comes one person at a time. If everyone here stopped worrying so much about what others are doing wrong and concentrated instead on doing only what they feel is right, the imperfections here would evaporate with the morning dew.

Anyone heard the Serenity Prayer lately? (Quiet, Karen, save that wit for something less easy.)

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

You cannot ever, in a million years, change another person. Period. The best you can do, if you're really really lucky and really really work hard at it, is to change yourself. Then, you just got to sit back and hope others will like what they see enough to follow.
QjQ
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65 posted 08-27-2003 02:11 AM       View Profile for QjQ   Email QjQ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for QjQ

My thoughts have been enriched and my anxieties have been alleviated.

Thank You "Ron"

     

[This message has been edited by QjQ (08-27-2003 02:14 AM).]

Poet deVine
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66 posted 08-27-2003 08:49 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


Thanks for the email Raph!

Now. Let's get this cleared up and move one ok?
Miah
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67 posted 08-27-2003 11:05 AM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

I have a feeling this was a private battle. Sorry for comenting on it. ooops.
Wind
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68 posted 08-27-2003 01:28 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

Ahh..the title of this got me grinning. my second standby (after 'trust nobody') is perfection is overated. it would get pretty boring without people ranting and raving. But I don't take sides. I think that they are both good points. Personaly, I admire the people who stood up for their beliefs, but I also understand those who are afraid to. it hurts sometimes, when people misunderstand what you are saying. But I really think everyone gets the point and maybe we could let this thread die?

How did I miss this one?

trying not to be serious.

[This message has been edited by Wind (08-27-2003 01:36 PM).]

Aenimal
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the ass-end of space


69 posted 08-27-2003 04:21 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

No prob Sharon

Miah not a private battle at all and THANK you for commenting and adding to the discussion

Liz consider it it dead
BluesSerenade
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since 10-23-2001
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70 posted 08-27-2003 11:10 PM       View Profile for BluesSerenade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for BluesSerenade

I hear you loud and clear, but everyone is going to do what they always do Raph, while remaining perfect guests.  (thank you Ron)  I had a hard time following this thread....makes me want to go more blonde so I can justify it!!!  

Life is too short!
Don't worry about it so much~

(wait, that doesn't sound like me)
Mysteria
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71 posted 08-30-2003 05:39 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

We all have that choice to either be part of the problem or part of the solution.  I know it is another cliche' but such a good one.  

Serenity can you pick me up in that Volga, so we can vrooom, vrooom over to Bluesy's and dye our hair blonder Raphael, its a girl thing.

Now back to reading poetry, as we have some wonderful poets here to choose from, and after all isn't that what a poetry site is for?  

  

[This message has been edited by Mysteria (08-30-2003 05:41 AM).]

Local Rebel
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72 posted 08-30-2003 04:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Notice how I've stayed completely out of this?  Of course -- I've stayed completely out of everything since last week but, I digress.

'Cliques' are not only inevitable -- they are necessary!

Why?

Because there are only so many waking hours in a day.  We can only have meaningful interactions with a limited number of people -- and yeah -- like the song says -- we want to go where somebody knows our name -- or -- psuedonem as it were.  Only a real narcisist really likes to tell his story over and over and over again... we like familiarity -- community.

The maximum number for most people in a clique -- or a better term is oikos -- is about 12 people.  Seemed there was a certain Gallilean who even understood this a couple thousand years ago.

People will flow into an oikos and out of it again -- that's the way life is.

Regarding the 'imperfections' mentioned Raph -- maybe I'm naive (and I work hard at it) but the main complaint that surfaces over time again and again is about censorship.  That's what it always boils down to.  We've all been edited and edit ourselves as a consequence.

The rules seem pretty simple.  The etiquette is a little difficult for a new poster -- but -- it comes with time.  Maybe a few really good writers should revamp the welcome note to explain it better.

I do hear 'Open' referred to sometimes as junior high -- but -- it's just the human socialization process at work.

Re-read Plato's Republic http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html if you haven't lately just to remind yourself how little the human animal has changed in a few thousand years.  There's no reason to believe that a relatively new technology is going to change human nature.  We sound just like the dialoges Glaucon.

And -- if all this was prompted because of rumor and inuendo about you (lord knows I probably have my share) just remember

quote:

Remember that nobody will ever get ahead of you as long as he is kicking you in the seat of the pants.
   -- Walter Winchell

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


73 posted 08-31-2003 03:08 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal


'Men occassionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry on as if nothing had happened.'
~Winston Churchill~

something I try to avoid and abhor seeing

Reb read my share of the classics and while you're right about the human condition not having changed much does that mean I should stop hoping? Grin
It wasn't due to an innuendo or rumour although i know they exist. In fact it wasn't due to anything that effected me personally.
Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


74 posted 08-31-2003 03:38 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

If a person presents themselves in a certain way in front of myself and a crowd, and then confides in me his or her's true feelings in private, it is then my responsibility not to ever mention to the crowd that a certain person feels differently than they portray while in the crowd, unless I just come right out and say who it is, otherwise, I should keep my mouth shut.
 
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