How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Original ideas
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Original ideas

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


0 posted 06-08-2003 05:14 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

After reading a critique on one of my poems, I got to thinking.It was a somewhat mean spirited critique, stating my post was unoriginal and boring.It did not offend me personnally, but raises a good question.After several thousand years of writing and art, Can an individual possibly be original?How many new ways can you write of love, of hate?How many original ideas remain about God and flowers?Can anyone really coin a new phrase about pain?
I do not think anything I have written can be called original.Most of it can be called played out and boring.I write from my life, but my life isn't new, many of you have lived it.So in 2003, does an original idea exist?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


1 posted 06-08-2003 07:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Smile.

Have you seen the movie, "A Beautiful Mind?"

If you have then you know what the quest for a truly original idea can do to one's sanity.

I don't believe in original ideas. (Something I tell myselves to keep the crew in line... )

But, I think, if you just find the voice of YOU to convey what you see, think, and feel, then? THAT is enough.

Because, Jason-lovie? *eyes twinkling*

YOU are an original idea!

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (06-08-2003 07:40 PM).]

Nightshade
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 08-31-2001
Posts 14673
just out of reach


2 posted 06-08-2003 07:48 PM       View Profile for Nightshade   Email Nightshade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nightshade's Home Page   View IP for Nightshade



Ya..what serenity said !!!
hugs, Chris
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


3 posted 06-08-2003 07:50 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

well, I'm wondering if that person thought they were saying anything important, much less, original?
it doesn't matter how many times one writes of love, nor how many write of it.
It's different ever time.
I happen to enjoy your stuff, original or not.
There. I've said it. Now go write some more, and never mind the meanies. Some have said much worse to me.
Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


4 posted 06-09-2003 01:31 AM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Thanks Ladies, and I really wasn't bothered by the post.As far as my own writes go,some are good I hope, some are bad, probably, and alot of them are just what I am doing or feeling at the moment.
No, serenity, I have not seen the movie.I should though, I have heard it was great.

You are all right, but it still made me think, originality in writing, or any other form of art is tough.Not one of us can rewrite Shakespeare, or Poe.Frost has done his thing.Plato is finished talking.Even looking to the future, science fiction has left little room for new writes.When I think of all I have read,alot of it was good, even great.But only a few were original(Frank Herbert, J.R.R Tolkien, Enders Game...)well hell, now that I tried to start a list, I admit the list could get huge.Even if some Ideas were not new, many writers perspective and style were.

I think you are right Serenity, I think I could easily go insane trying to come up with a truly original idea.

Jason


[This message has been edited by Jason Lyle (06-09-2003 01:50 AM).]

Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


5 posted 06-09-2003 12:44 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Good morning Jason. Well, I just spent some time in "Critical" and discovered the reply you must have meant when you posted this. That "poet" is not one to even be concerned with and virtually all of comments are below the belt. I hope Ron pulls the plug on him, and today would be fine with me.
As for originality, it IS hard to imagine that we could think up anything new or original, but that's not even an issue for me. I KNOW thousands before me have expressed fear, angst, love, and every other emotion humans are capable of feeling. But no one but me can say it in MY words, in my style. Thank the Godesses for that, as I often bore myself to tears! LOL


[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (06-10-2003 03:13 PM).]

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


6 posted 06-09-2003 01:06 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

She's right, Jason.  Every basic concept has already been expressed of course, but the element of originality is at least halfway reliant on perspective, rather than just content... you can say something that's been said a million times before, but the way in which you present it, your metaphors, your imagery, can draw connections never found before between concept and reality...

There's too much to be said for everything to have already been said... that's the very nature of poetry itself: finding new things to say, and new ways in which to say them.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


7 posted 06-10-2003 12:27 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

There is nothing new under the sun.

-- Penned a couple thousand years ago.  Check Ecclesiastes.

But consider these famous last words;

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876.


"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" -- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.


"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." -- A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)


"Who the h*** wants to hear actors talk?" -- H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927


"I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." -- Gary Cooper, on his decision to not take the leading role in "Gone With The Wind."


"A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." -- Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.


"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.


"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." -- Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.


"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." -- Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads.


"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" -- Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.


"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." -- 1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work.


"You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." -- Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus.


"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." -- Drillers whom Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist in his project to drill for oil in 1859.


"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -- Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.


"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." -- Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.


"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.


"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". -- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872


"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon". -- Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.


"No flying machine will ever fly from New York to Paris." -- Orville Wright.
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


8 posted 06-10-2003 12:48 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Maybe there aren't any new ideas... but I don't think any of us know every idea in the world. I'm not an especially worldly person, I still have a lot to learn... and if I can learn a new (to me) idea, that's great. If I like the idea, maybe I'll like more like it.

For example, I really liked Pulp Fiction. I went on the really like Magnolia and Traffic.  

And anyway, I liked the poem, I thought it had some very original and subtle (perhaps too subtle for some readers?) ideas.
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


9 posted 06-10-2003 08:12 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

There hasn't been an original idea since before Ceasar was assassinated. Not in thoughts, words, or or music. All we are doing is trying to express our thoughts in ways that aren't too extremely worn out. Don't worry about what others may say, and continue writing. You do it rather well.

Day after day I'm more confused,
So I look for the light through the pouring rain...

Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


10 posted 06-10-2003 01:50 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, but truthfully?
There just may be an original research thought/style hanging around in these forums, though it's not one I'd suggest anyone emulate.
Cruise on over to CA forums, and read Trevor's Apology.
Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


11 posted 06-10-2003 02:53 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Thanks for all the replies and compliments .His critique truly did not bother me.It just made me think about originality.I think that it is close to impossible to have a truly original idea anymore.I do however think ones perspective and style can be original, as some you have also said.

Jason
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


12 posted 06-10-2003 03:16 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

OK, so now it's back to the proverbial drawing board...er, make that writing board, and challenge someone to come up with an original (and acceptable) piece.

HMM, who do you think will go first?
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


13 posted 06-10-2003 04:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899

That's almost certainly an apocryphal story, LR, though perhaps not without at least some basis in fact.

Personally, I still believe that "original and new" is not beyond our grasp, with the obvious qualification that it depends on how you define original. The rub is that "original" is rarely considered very good. Almost by definition, original can't be easily understood. It has no reference points. That's why so many outstanding artists in so many fields have been ignored during and even beyond their own lifetimes. We only appreciate originality, it seems, after it stops being original.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


14 posted 06-10-2003 11:20 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Dr. Pepper, so misunderstood.

Thanks for the link Ron -- verrrry interesting... I wonder how many of the others hold up to scrutiny.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 06-13-2003 11:10 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
How many new ways can you write of love, of hate?


Why would anyone want to write a poem about love or hate?

That's not a rhetorical question, I really want to know.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


16 posted 06-14-2003 12:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Ah, but Brad, why would anyone ever want to write a poem about anything except love or hate? I wonder, in fact, if it is even possible.
timothysangel1973
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Senior Member
since 12-03-2001
Posts 1749
Never close enough


17 posted 06-14-2003 01:13 AM       View Profile for timothysangel1973   Email timothysangel1973   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit timothysangel1973's Home Page   View IP for timothysangel1973

First of all let me say that Serenity sums it up in three words...

YOU ARE ORIGINAL!

Now Dear Jason...

I agree with your quote on the ability to be original in a world where most of us have experienced nearly every emotion there is to experience.  

As long as you write from your heart & soul, who cares whether or not someone else thinks it is original???

Tell your story and tell it anyway you can, if it seems boring to another person out there...so what.  Not all of us lead the lifestyles of the rich and famous.  Some of us live lives that are mundane in the eyes of others.

However, boring and un-original to one person may be interesting and full of insight to others.  

I am a mommy, and a wife, and all the in-betweens.  Does that make me boring?

Maybe so, but who cares.  I do the job that I have to do, which is raise my children, and take care of my husband.  Is it boring to me personally?

Heck NO!

Shoot, sometimes I don't even get to brush my hair until after lunch, and bubble baths are something that I only see on T.V.  

Your ideas about love, pain, or whatever you are writing about come from a place that no one can see...INSIDE.

Write what you feel, and see, and experience in this life.  That is what will matter most in the long run.


Don't let it go to your spirit.  Just move on and do what you do in any form that you feel that you need to.

Writing is a personal thing.

Pain is pain no matter how you arrange the words.  Heartache is Heartache no matter what phrase you use to explain it.  Love is whatever, and however you see it personally.

God is Great, and if a flower is PINK...call it that.  Simplicity is still enjoyed by some of us.  Especially us mommies that only get eighteen spare minutes a day ( the wash cycle)

Being a complicated writer does not make you a better one.  It just means that you have more time to sit and ponder than the rest of the world does!!!!!

)))HUGS(((

TimothysAngel1973

*Whatever souls are made of...his and mine are of the same*  ~Emily Bronte'

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


18 posted 06-14-2003 06:24 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

I am guilty Brad, if you have read me.Love and hate all I write about.

Jason
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


19 posted 06-14-2003 07:29 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I read the poem, Jason. It ends right at the point where it gets interesting. We've all started poems where we sit drinking as in the first part, Lao Tzu furnished us with endless sentences that compare opposites and contraries as you do in the second part, but it's that last part the part about the three Christines that grabbed me. That should have been your beginning.

Ron knows where I'm going to go here: Love and hate are concepts, pointers, or  categorizations -- useful in their own way, but only in their generalization, in their abstraction. At best, they point to a family resemblance of an infinite amount of different feelings.  They aren't contradictions either, you can love and hate  aspects of something at the same time (what you can't do is love and not love the same thing at the same time).

Given all this, the trick isn't to write about love or hate, but to write about what evokes those things that we, in an extremely limiting way, have come to call love or hate. We need to get through the abstractions and into the concrete particulars and that, nine times out of ten, requires a new language or an old language used in a new way.

If we wanted to read about love or hate, we would read philosophy, sociology, linguistic, or psychology (not that that's a bad thing), when we read poetry, we want to read about those things that made you feel those feelings, not about those feelings.

I, once, had thought I had come up with this myself but then discovered that Stanley Kunitz had already said much the same thing. Since I don't know if I did come up with it originally or simply read Kunitz and forgot, I'll give him the credit:

Science is about ever increasing generalization, poetry is about every increasing particularization.

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


20 posted 06-15-2003 04:48 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Timothysangel,
Thank you for the reply and kind words.I do simply write what I write, butsince I started posting here, I also try to improve what I write.I have learned alot here.

Brad,
Thanks for the post, you taught me some things.

"Given all this, the trick isn't to write about love or hate, but to write about what evokes those things that we, in an extremely limiting way, have come to call love or hate. We need to get through the abstractions and into the concrete particulars and that, nine times out of ten, requires a new language or an old language used in a new way."

I liked this, and will try to use it when writing.I tend to be blunt and just write what I am doing at the moment,(or feeling)
Thanks for the honest crit, rereading it I agree.


Jason
idleeyes86
Member
since 06-09-2003
Posts 66
Somewhere over the rainbow


21 posted 06-18-2003 12:45 PM       View Profile for idleeyes86   Email idleeyes86   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for idleeyes86

There is always space for an original idea, the world is filled with new aspects and view and philosophies just waiting to be explored, hell if you're completely stuck write about a random theory on life.

Also originality doesn't have to come from the subject, it can come from the style, from the description, anything. Style will always differ from person to person as long as they don't try and emulate other poets.

However in the search for originality I think it very important not to lose quality. The greatest example is the well cliched "modern-art" art that merely tries to be original and, in doing so, loses all aspects of beauty and interest.

In short, good poetry will inspire certain feelings inside of you, and if you read something that is completely typical and un-original these feelings will not be inspired. Therefore it is important when you describe something, describe exactly how you think it is, don't quote someone else's description, hell if you need to, do what Shakespeare did and invent a new word. This will always make your poetry more beautiful and original.

Just a final note, don't take the criticism of "un-original" too badly, it is a common get out for critiques who merely want to criticise something.

Everybody hurts, take comfort in your friends, cos everybody hurts sometimes

(r.e.m)

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


22 posted 06-21-2003 10:29 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Style will always differ from person to person as long as they don't try and emulate other poets.


No, no, try to emulate good poets -- again and again and again.

One problem is that no one, or rather many, do not even try, so, in fact, they all sound the same.


chasing rain
Senior Member
since 05-15-2001
Posts 1281
Canada


23 posted 06-21-2003 11:34 PM       View Profile for chasing rain   Email chasing rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chasing rain

I personally don't think there are "original ideas". Yes, there are originals, but not original ideas. To me, everything that we deem "original" is actually triggered by the automatic connection we are able to relate to in our heads (did that make any sense? ) In other words, the concept of "original" is defined as the subtle connection we are able to make in our minds in order to fully understand this concept. Still doesn't make sense? *sigh* I really have to learn to make things more simple...

But let's look at it this way: the word "origin" is found, obviously, in the word "original." Not very hard to pick out. However, the word "origin" most often means "to derive from" or "a source". So original would have to mean "to come from a source". Now, what exactly makes "original" original when it comes from a source? I suppose I agree with what some of you have said about saying the same thing differently, but what it all really boils down to is that it all comes from the same "source". You could describe love in so many ways, but the origin would be, in this case, love.

Oh my, this is massively confusing me.

In any case, what I really think is...

Originality comes from insanity.

And that, my friends, is something I think we all posess somewhere inside ourselves.

-Leah
Wind
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 10-12-2002
Posts 3185


24 posted 06-25-2003 03:10 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

Originality comes from the head, not the heart, because our veins all run with the same stuff. Only our minds are different. Originality is not trained, not thought of. Originality is doing what others scorn uppon, even if you cross lines that shouldn't be crossed. And with this in mind, I will say that a person who writes of hate and love is missing all the other stuff that is lieing around. Like the ocean. Or the dirt. The color of someone's eyes. But we are different, some of us just don't show it.

but if someone's flames don't hurt you, then you are truely an original.


I said I'm going to buy a gun and start a war,
If you can tell me something worth fighting for
-coldplay

[This message has been edited by Wind (06-25-2003 03:13 PM).]

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Original ideas Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors