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What is Bush's foreign policy?

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Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
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0 posted 04-26-2003 05:44 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal


Recently Bush cancelled a scheduled trip to Canada when Colin Powell was asked by a canadian reporter if this was a snub due to Canada's stance on the Iraq war. Powell admitted that it was indeed but added that we shouldn't worry as neighbours it will eventually blow over. Is international relations the place for petty emotions and were Canadians not entitled to their own opinion? The Bush administrations foreign policy is absolutely appaling, this war was fought for the Iraqi freedom but once the looting began soldiers did not assist, when asked they said it was not their mission to police. I found that amusing when you consider there were alot of military units keeping a sharp eye on oil wells. For the People..yes. And while the US continually stated that they did not wish to undermine the UN I find it appaling that now that the war is over the US has denied UN inspectors access to search for those Chemical weapons and others of mass destruction, saying that their own inspectors were on the case and the UN would simply get in the way. Is this good policy, is this the way to endear yourself to the international community?
Severn
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1 posted 04-26-2003 06:16 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

No.

K
Balladeer
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2 posted 04-26-2003 07:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sadly, I feel that one of the casualties of this time will be the damage of relations between the US and Canada. I will say without hesitation I hold Canada in very high regards and have many Canadian friends. Even so, with the instances of booing our national anthem at sporting events, which began with American kids - KIDS! - going up to Canada playing hockey to be booed and have insults screamed at them by the Canadian fans to now where there have been increasing instances in the professional sports arena, to the Candian Prime Minister making it a point to proclaim loudly that any Iraqi war criminals that would make it to Canada would not be turned over to America - I'm afraid I am losing some of the respect, also. Having a different view, or engaging in non-participation is one thing...antagonistic gestures are another. It appears the PM has decided he can increase his popularity, especially in his native Quebec, by America-bashing. Last week when I went to play golf with fellow Moose members, they told me the Canadian flag was being taken down at all Moose lodges. If you are not familiar with the Moose organization, they are among the most patriotic organizations in existence who believe in God and democracy. The American and Canadian flags have always flown together. Now the Canadian flag has been replaced by the official P.O.W. flag and I find that very sad.

Would it upset Americans that Bush would cancel his trip there for those reasons? Highly unlikely..many Americans would agree. It appears to me Bush's stance is this...disagree if you want - that's your right. Badmouth us if you want - but not while your hand is extended in mock friendship. Intentionally undermine us and there will be repurcussions. I, who have heard other countries engage in America-bashing ever since I was born with smiling faces and hands extended for cash, find it almost refreshing for an American president to finally take this kind of attitude. No, the rest of you may not but then that just gives you more bashes to add to the past and current bashes...so everyone gets something, right?
Crazy Eddie
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3 posted 04-26-2003 07:56 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Iím with Balladeer in one respect in that Iím not sure that the American Government wants to endear itself to the international community.

Thereís a joke going around the UK at the moment that the reason itís taking so long to find the WMDís is one of logistics, after all it takes time to ship them in and the ďMade in IraqĒ stickers havenít even been printed yet.

Iím not for one minute suggesting that Iraq didnít have the weapons or that America would fabricate evidence if they failed to find any. My point in repeating the joke is to show that the atmosphere and perception of America outside the US exists that allows the potential for such beliefs to become widespread and the American Government seems intent on feeding that potential.

Contradictory statements coming from America donít seem to be helping, it has been maintained throughout this conflict that the Iraqi people would be free to choose their own Government. Yet when some Iraqis declared that Iraq should become an Islamic state the American Government stated that they wouldnít allow that to happen. Either theyíre free to choose or theyíre not you canít have it both ways.
Aenimal
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4 posted 04-26-2003 07:59 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Oh please Balladeer, if we're going to talk about booing national anthems as a sports fan I can give countless examples where New York fans have booed the canadian anthem. We've come to expect it during the NBA playoffs and the NHL playoffs but nothing is made out of it in your media other than a shoulder shrug and an 'Oh those Crazee New Yorkers' comment..so don't you dare begin with that.

"Badmouth us if you want - but not while your hand is extended in mock friendship. Intentionally undermine us and there will be repurcussions. I, who have heard other countries engage in America-bashing ever since I was born with smiling faces and hands extended for cash, find it almost refreshing for an American president to finally take this kind of attitude"

How absolutely ridiculous, smiling faces hands extended for cash..do you realize how many billions of dollars go both ways? How many debts are incurred both ways. I truly hope you didn't mean Canada with that comment. Intentionally undermining you? We were the first to reach out with aid for 911 and the first to join you in Afghanistan and in Bush's famous thank you speech where he thanked countries A-Z he never once mentioned Canada. Is that the level of respect that Canada commands from your government?

And here's a thought, when a country as friendly and semi-docile as Canada has serious opposition to your methods in this "War for the Iraqi people"  and is 'bashing' you isn't it time to maybe question your methods and policies at least a little? Or would that be unpatriotic?

For you to spin the snubbing incident with the argument "Well Chretien did such and such first' (which is complete BS) is as incredibly childish as Bush turning his back on the visit. You never once mention the other points about UN inspectors or the looting. I said International policy not US Canadian relations. Bush's polocies are tearing your nation apart and his 'attitude' is pure simple-mindedness.

Take the time to step back and take a serious look at how these policies may enrage or disturb other countries, it's not unpatriotic to question things and not tow the line. My god when a nation is burning Dixie chix albums and memoribilia for a simple comment can't you see there's a madness? What's next book burning?

I will never bring children into a world so narrow minded and completlely void of fresh thought or 'personal' opinions. Where normally intelligent people cannot think for themselves but choose to tow the line and spew propaganda. And that's not a shot at the US but the entire international community including Canada. Bunch of children in the sandbox, well to hell with all of them.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-26-2003 08:04 PM).]

Balladeer
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5 posted 04-26-2003 08:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I see you have chosen to make your remarks insulting on a personal level, which I certainly did not do to you in my reply. That proves my point fairly well, I think..

Have a good life...
Tim
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6 posted 04-26-2003 08:53 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to direct me to the comments of Powell that indicated the U.S. was snubbing Canada.  I read the comments of Powell in the Canadian media I have access to and read them entirely different.  But then, as I recall, the Canadians felt snubbed by the U.S. after 9/11.  Now they are being snubbed again?
Powell said:
Canada and the United States are "frankly inseparable" and the U.S. will get over whatever disappointments existed in recent weeks, the American secretary of state said Tuesday.

Canada and the U.S. "occupy this one huge land," said Powell. Differences will come along, but the common history strongly binds the two countries, he said.

The minister added that disagreeing with our neighbour was not an easy choice, but Canada was not prepared to "risk the lives of our men and women."

Graham told the audience that the U.S. accepted Canada's position on Iraq and vowed the two countries will work together on many cross-border issues. Graham said that President George Bush's decision to cancel his May visit to Canada should not be seen as a snub. (that is your minister, not ours)

"When I spoke to Secretary of State Colin Powell today he said he and the president were looking forward to working with myself and the prime minister," said Graham.

You will have to forgive Balladeer, he might well have a friend or relative in Iraq as I and a few other million Americans do; and being concerned about some perceived snub is not particularly high on our list of concerns at the moment.

The Americans I know accept the fact the Canadians did not want to risk the lives of their men and women.  We did. Such is life. The Russians, French and Germans may be a different story in that it is generally viewed that those three countries put their economic oil interests above the freedom and lives of the Iraqi people.  They actively worked against the U.S.  Most Americans I know don't particularly appreciate the efforts of those three countries.

The purpose of the thread seems to once again attack the U.S.  So be it.  The only legitimate purpose I can see for the thread is to attempt to create disharmony and discord.  You have clearly succeeded.  Well done.

Perhaps this shows why the U.S. should try the French preferred route in the U.N.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/sto ry.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001/20030426/190649144.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20030426BAG52D

Perhaps a part of the world community is not trying to make cooperation with the U.S. one of its priorities either. This thread certainly is a start.


[This message has been edited by Tim (04-26-2003 09:28 PM).]

Crazy Eddie
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7 posted 04-26-2003 09:48 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Tim,

"it is generally viewed that those three countries put their economic oil interests above the freedom and lives of the Iraqi people"

It might be the general view but that doesnít make it true in the same way that the claim that America only acted because of their oil interests probably isnít true either. The difference is in the perception, Americans may believe that those three countries acted because of oil but that isnít widely believed outside of the US. Conversely that American action is dictated by oil isnít believed within the US but it is held as a strong possibility abroad.

"They actively worked against the U.S."

Strange as it may seem thatís actually allowed, especially if the countries involved donít agree with American policies. What is strange is that you seem to be willing to accept countries that donít agree but donít openly voice their opposition while vilifying any country that has the nerve to speak their mind. France Germany and Russia were opposed to any resolution that contained an immediate trigger for war, it is and was their right to freely choose and to promote their point of view, in that respect they are no different from Canada or Great Britain.

BTW Iíd take anything written in the Telegraph with a pinch of salt if I were you.
http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/04/week_3/22_gall.html
Tim
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8 posted 04-26-2003 09:55 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Yes, it is allowed that countries work contrary to the interests of the U.S.  But it only seems fair the U.S. be able to recognize this fact and act accordingly.  And if it is the rest of the world's perception that France, Russia and Germany do not have significant economic ties to Iraq and its oil, then so be it.  That goes a bit beyond perception to most American minds into the realm of fact.

[This message has been edited by Tim (04-26-2003 09:59 PM).]

Crazy Eddie
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9 posted 04-26-2003 10:24 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Tim,

Having significant economic ties to Iraq and its oil wasnít my point of contention it was rather your assertion that those ties were the reason why France, Germany and Russia were opposed to immediate action. In my opinion such an assertion flies closer to the realm of fiction than fact.
Tim
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10 posted 04-26-2003 11:47 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Can't argue with logic like that...
end of my involvement, there is no way I can intellectually respond to that statement.  Have a nice night all.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
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11 posted 04-27-2003 01:10 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Balladeer if I insulted you I apologize but I still feel disturbed how easily you can spin this and talk of anti-americanism when I clearly stated it was against Bush's policy. I'm an outsider so to question American policy makes me Anti-American and an American who questions policy is called unpatriotic. How many more labels and excuses? With this kind of division amongst your citizens and amongst the UN nations isn't it just possible that maybe these weren't the correct steps to take? Can't you see where the refusal to allow UN inspectors into Iraq may seem to some curious?

Tim I no longer have the exact quote but it was something to the effect what can I say?
If you ask about 911 and why we feel snubbed it's because we are brothers and we bled along with you on september 11. There were Canadians in the towers, US travellers were diverted to Canadian cities and taken care of and with the kindness and open homes and Bush doesn't even name our country? It's no secret that relations between Bush and Chretien were never strong, Chretien and Canada had incredible relations under the Clinton administration.

and this Tim?
"You will have to forgive Balladeer, he might well have a friend or relative in Iraq as I and a few other million Americans do; and being concerned about some perceived snub is not particularly high on our list of concerns at the moment."

Maybe you'll be surprised to know that Canadian troops are stationed in Afghanistan, patrolling the gulf and oh yeah there is a a large number alongside your troops in Iraq as part of a co-op program.

And Tim to say that this thread is an attack is an attack on the US is utter nonsense. I seperate Government from the people and to think with all the friends I have here on PIP that I'd do such a thing is ludicrous. My anger is toward

a) the Bush administrations handling of things

b) the incredible denial that the US government could possibly do wrong

c) the 'new' patriotism, which demands that everybody fall in line and support without question or be labelled unpatriotic or rebels rousers ooooooh those Evil Dixie Chix
Denise
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12 posted 04-27-2003 02:39 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
And while the US continually stated that they did not wish to undermine the UN I find it appaling that now that the war is over the US has denied UN inspectors access to search for those Chemical weapons and others of mass destruction, saying that their own inspectors were on the case and the UN would simply get in the way. Is this good policy, is this the way to endear yourself to the international community?


Probably not, but I don't think endearing ourselves to the international community is a high priority at the moment when we are still working to maintain order and begin the process of helping Iraq install new leadership. I definitely think the U.N. should be involved though, especially with continuing humanitarian relief, and down the road, the resumption of inspections if they are not satisfied with the job the U.S. has done. I think it would be a good idea too to use the U.N. peace keeping forces to quell looting and rioting during the current power vacuum.


quote:
a) the Bush administrations handling of things

b) the incredible denial that the US government could possibly do wrong

c) the 'new' patriotism, which demands that everybody fall in line and support without question or be labelled unpatriotic or rebels rousers ooooooh those Evil Dixie Chix


a) Raph, how would you handle things if you were in charge? I'd be interested in hearing some constructive ideas on how things could be done differently.

b) That's quite a blanket statement. Of course we are capable of 'doing wrong', just as any other country is. Who denies that? Most Americans happen to believe now though that Bush is doing something 'right'. That's not the same thing though as your statement asserts. And given that it seems most of the world nowadays doesn't give much credance to right and wrong (everything is relative, no?), who makes that judgment, the wise ones who sit on the U.N.? God help us.

c) No one that I know is "falling in line" and not questioning things so as not to be labeled unpatriotic. They, as most Americans just happen to support most of the current policies of the administration. Evil, no, we don't think the Dixie Chix are evil, I think incredibly stupid sums them up pretty accurately. Since the majority of Americans took offense at their unique brand of Bush bashing on foreign soil during a time of war, well, I'd say that they will definitely feel it in their pocketbooks.


quote:
Contradictory statements coming from America donít seem to be helping, it has been maintained throughout this conflict that the Iraqi people would be free to choose their own Government. Yet when some Iraqis declared that Iraq should become an Islamic state the American Government stated that they wouldnít allow that to happen. Either theyíre free to choose or theyíre not you canít have it both ways.


C,

I beleive that it has been maintained throughout that the Iraqi people would be free to choose their own form of representative government. Allowing another Islamic state form of government would not fit that criteria. All of Iraq's people have to be represented and share in the governing, not just the religious element of the country.

quote:
Americans may believe that those three countries acted because of oil but that isnít widely believed outside of the US. Conversely that American action is dictated by oil isnít believed within the US but it is held as a strong possibility abroad.


This statement seems, to me anyway, to prove the strong anti-US bias that is rampant throughout the world. The world seems eager to think the best of France, Germany and Russia regarding their motives but seems not so eager to give the U.S. the same deference regarding her motives. Why is that?
Aenimal
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13 posted 04-27-2003 03:51 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Probably not, but I don't think endearing ourselves to the international community is a high priority at the moment when we are still working to maintain order and begin the process of helping Iraq install new leadership. I definitely think the U.N. should be involved though, especially with continuing humanitarian relief, and down the road, the resumption of inspections if they are not satisfied with the job the U.S. has done. I think it would be a good idea too to use the U.N. peace keeping forces to quell looting and rioting during the current power vacuum

Well my point is that one of the major arguments people had were whether those weapons did exist. And its not just about endearing yourselves to the community. To actually say no we have our own inspectors we don't need yours completely undermines the UN's role. As for the cleanup humantarian aid and peacekeeping Canada was always waiting and has been asked to include RCMP officers to train Iraqi police. We've always maintained that while we didn't want this 'war' we were there to help in some way.

and as for the Bush government "working to maintain order and begin the process of helping Iraq install new leadership" I find it hard to resolve the promise of free and democratic elections with Rumsfields comments that the US would not allow a government of Clerics. Well is it free choice or not?

Raph, how would you handle things if you were in charge?
Oh come on I never assumed I had all the answers but I can say that there is such thing as tact and diplomacy and Bush has rarely shown either. I wouldn't cancel a visit out of spite over a disagreement in opinion.

That's quite a blanket statement. Of course we are capable of 'doing wrong', just as any other country is

The blanket statement was directed those who have responded with spins and infallible mentality. And if you truly believe MOST americans really do approve of what Bush has done then why all the turmoil and backlash?

And as for no one falling in line that's just not true. I never said Everyone is but to deny that there ARE people falling into line is madness. There are many who disagree with the war but say well we have to support Bush's choice, they label it solidarity, or patriotism. But for many its fear of being labeled, or fear of being different from the majority view. If you haven't seen those who question things being attacked as unpatriotic then you have to look no further than this board and some of the poems that were posted early on in this whole mess. And as for the Dixie Chix, was she not entitled to her opinion, to free speech, to disagree with her government. Regardless of what she said no matter how heinous people make it out to be,is it right to burn and crush records, to label them rebels and sluts? The Dixie Chix? For god's sakes their as american as apple pie and to turn to mob record burning shows a disturbing fanaticism. What next burn them at the stake?

I've said enough, I'm sorry I began this thread now, Balladeer's offended, Tim thinks I planned this to stir up controversy. For an outsider to even remotely question Bush's methods I'm labeled Anti-American while many of my american friends who happen to agree with me are labeled Unpatriotic.. it's a no win situation. I questioned a governments policies and its been spun into a slander of its people.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-27-2003 03:57 AM).]

littlewing
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14 posted 04-27-2003 04:11 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

My anger is toward

a) the Bush administrations handling of things

b) the incredible denial that the US government could possibly do wrong

c) the 'new' patriotism, which demands that everybody fall in line and support without question or be labelled unpatriotic


I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE ORIGINAL POST

I do not know or care to how this conversation turned anything towards anti-Americanism - I did not see anything in the original post stating this.

Living RIGHT next to Canada - I can surely tell you that they are indeed our allies - always were and will be - but that is not the issue now is it? NO

1:  The US Govt has handled this poorly - this is plain to see - who or what handled it is not the case - perse - it is still the US govt - regardless of party - affiliation - President . . . MY govt jumped in without approval from the UN - without the approval of many Americans and without the approval of many other countries.  Yes, you may say - but isnt this democracy?  By todays standards - yes, but not quite what the good men so long ago painstakingly envisioned.

2:  The govt is run by HUMANS - not supermen or perfect beings - of course things go wrong - this is life - accept it and move on

3:  The new patriotism does disturb me.  For years - I have not seen an American flag on a house - only at Local Posts,  Govt buildings and schools.  After 9/11 -every single home had a flag - every child had an Old Navy flag T - shirt (of course the whole family had one).  Banners for your car antenna sold on late night t.v.?
(shaking head)  Bottom line is the flags should have always been there like they were when I was a child.  (btw - NYS sold out of flags that year - a record I am sure) Doesnt mean you are "unpatriotic" to have an opinion, on the contrary, it makes you that much more patriotic for sticking to and intelligently backing your belief.  

Regarding many of the foolish acts towards groups, musicians, political parties, countries etc:  all of us just need to take it down a notch and FOCUS on the problem at hand instead of creating more issues to deal with.  

We can all agree that there are too many already . . .

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

  

                                      

[This message has been edited by littlewing (04-27-2003 04:22 AM).]

Crazy Eddie
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15 posted 04-27-2003 09:17 AM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie

Denise,

I understand that America wants a representative government in Iraq, in fact thatís just my point American Officials have stated that they will not allow Iraq to become a Theocracy but if thatís what the majority want who are America to deny them?

60% of the population of Iraq are Shiia Muslims, traditionally well organised and resolute in their belief that there should be no separation or distinction between church and state. The other 40% is comprised of Sunni Muslims, Christians and non-denomination Arabs. If a free and democratic vote was taken tomorrow, and if the option of a Theocracy was available, the chances are the majority of the Iraqi people would vote in favour of a Muslim state. Under those circumstances what right has America to dictate which form of government presides over Iraq?

quote:
Americans may believe that those three countries acted because of oil but that isnít widely believed outside of the US. Conversely that American action is dictated by oil isnít believed within the US but it is held as a strong possibility abroad.


"This statement seems, to me anyway, to prove the strong anti-US bias that is rampant throughout the world. The world seems eager to think the best of France, Germany and Russia regarding their motives but seems not so eager to give the U.S. the same deference regarding her motives. Why is that?"

I believe itís due to American Foreign Policy post 9/11, America has lost the trust of many people outside the US including some Governments. Belief in the integrity of France, Germany and even Russia has in contrast enjoyed a strengthening of support. America, in the eyes of many foreign observers went from hero to zero in an amazingly short period of time, which in my opinion was largely due to Americas move towards a unilateralist stance and a backlash to chequebook diplomacy.

My greatest worry in all this is that the rifts that have appeared between America and the UN and America and individual countries could widen rather than narrow. I believe America is likely in the coming weeks to table an omnibus resolution at the UN which seems to be designed to fail. Itís likely to include a clause that legitimises the invasion of Iraq; the transfer from the UN of control of the oil for food program and the acceptance of America or its designates as the interim economic and governmental controller of Iraq. If it is passed those that opposed the war will officially be classed as wrong and if it fails America will once again point to the ineffectiveness of the UN and carry on regardless. As far as America is concerned this is a win/win situation and the UN and those countries that opposed the war face a possibly irrevocable loss either way.


[This message has been edited by Crazy Eddie (04-27-2003 09:21 AM).]

Local Rebel
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16 posted 04-27-2003 09:49 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I understand that America wants a representative government in Iraq, in fact thatís just my point American Officials have stated that they will not allow Iraq to become a Theocracy but if thatís what the majority want who are America to deny them?



One of the tenets of a 'free' society Eddie is that it protects the rights of the minorities.

I don't really like to call up such hackneyed analogies as the slavery issue in the United States -- but if there was a majority opinion in favor of it (which there was at the time of the Civil War) it is still a problem.

A Shiite, fundamentalist Iran-style government in Iraq wouldn't grant the kind of widespread freedom that is the goal in Iraq.

The rationale has long been that it was better to maintain evil dictators and iron fisted monarchs in the middle east particularly to prevent majority 'votes' from installing Islamist Fascists into power.

Democracy, however, is not about simple majority rule.


Tim
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17 posted 04-27-2003 12:40 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I am not particularly surprised the quote was not located.  I am still in the position of hearing Canadians feel snubbed from some perceived slight of which I am unable to determine the factual underpinnings.
In any event, I applaud Canadians who support their men and women who risk their lives for what they view a just cause.  I even understand the Canadians feeling patriotic thoughts for perceieved, although unsubstantiated snubs, by an American president.
Unfortunately, I am still am unable to comprehend the logic employed in the attacks upon the United States in this thread.  Therefore, I am unable to respond logically to an argument I find to have no basis in logic or common sense.  I apologize for my ignorance.
Crazy Eddie
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18 posted 04-27-2003 01:46 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


LR,

Thatís a valid point but my question was more aimed at who gets to choose which type of Government rules Iraq, is it the American Government or the people of Iraq or the people of Iraq as long as the American Government agrees with the choice?

Tim,

Not seeing the logic or common sense in opposing arguments is what weíre all guilty of, thatís when talking about the issues becomes even more important. Just because you or I donít see the logic in each others arguments doesnít mean itís not there it just means we canít see it.

As far as attacking the US goesÖ well frankly I donít see it that way (though I could be wrong), I see criticism and a lot of questioning but if any of my remarks came across as an attack on the US I sincerely apologise, that wasnít my intent.
Aenimal
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19 posted 04-27-2003 02:01 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I am not particularly surprised the quote was not located.

As for the quote I admit I cannot find the exact comment as and may have mistakenly mixed some of Powell's comments made elsewhere with U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci who has blasted the canadian government(and not without reason and yet not the place of an ambassador)where he said that "There is disappointment in Washington, that Canada is not supporting us fully." admitting to short-term strains as a result of Canada's position. Strains I have personally seen in my business sector where american companies have refussed to buy product from canadian suppliers.

And listen Tim, I'm not at all pleased with Chretien's handling of things with the US either. Instead of claiming i'm fueling antiamericanism you may want to READ my posts.

And that's not a shot at the US but the entire international community including Canada. Bunch of children in the sandbox, well to hell with all of them.
Did you catch that? It's a shot at all governments and the silly crap that's going on.

As for the factual underpinning of a percieved slight well rewind the tapes and find Bush's 911 speech to see how high we rank in the minds of his administration. Or watch the crossfire shows and listen to what some of your senators and ambassadors are saying. We get american broadcasts and CNN, we can hear. The perception that Canadians aren't supportive, aren't good neighbours is a HUGE slight. We didn't support this 'war', and neither did most of the world. How easily you condemn our non-involvment but forget Afghanistan, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Korea etc etc WW1 and WW2, you remember WW2 right, where Americans didn't get involved for the first two years? Oh that must mean they were anti-canadian anti-british?

I don't even know how this became solely a US vs Canada issue!! My original posts also questioned the denial of UN inspectors into Iraq as well as the issue of policing.

Unfortunately, I am still am unable to comprehend the logic employed in the attacks upon the United States in this thread.  Therefore, I am unable to respond logically to an argument I find to have no basis in logic or common sense.  I apologize for my ignorance

Tim I don't know how many times I have to say this, I'm not anti-american I'm anti Bush Policy. If you refuse to seperate government from people the problem is yours not mine. But if it makes you feel better to label me Anti-American by all means, whatever makes you feel better. No matter how many time's I have seperated the people from the policy you've spun it as ANTI-AMERICAN and I you've simply proven the narrow mindedness and ignorance that the Bush propaganda sold you. How dare you call me Anti-american for simply questioning Bush a man who was't even rightfully elected. I canjust as easily question and rip apart Chretien's government which i have in the past and will continue to do until he is replaced. Anti Anti Anti Stop crying victim

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-27-2003 02:04 PM).]

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


20 posted 04-27-2003 02:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

The only ANTI in this thread is Anti logic..as Crazy said above I don't think any of us are seeing it especially with so high an emotional topic, with that i'll read your comments but with to bow out of this thread.
littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


21 posted 04-27-2003 04:00 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Has anybody read what I posted?
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


22 posted 04-27-2003 04:02 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

The simple minded and arrogant in the crowd hereby bid their adieu...
I know full well what your words say, as I say, they don't make sense to me...  I apologize for my simple mindessness.. ciao
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


23 posted 04-27-2003 04:16 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Apology accepted

Sue I read thanks

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-27-2003 04:17 PM).]

Jason Lyle
Senior Member
since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


24 posted 04-27-2003 06:06 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

I will not get into the details of this thread, as it spreads away from original post.I will say that the actions of this adminstration seem deliberate, to deny UN inspecters access is deliberate.It is this adminstrations way of saying............yes, the UN can be made not to matter, if the UN doesn't get on board....we will dictate policy.(don't hurt me Severn, observation only)
Would be nice to see a more peacefull policy out of all this, but I fear my country will only harden against opposition.As an after note, What has your country done to change things?(not talking about Canada, whom has done alot), but talking about those countries with no power, and no enemies, who only possess opinions and never feel loss, or responsability.
Jason
 
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