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Ten Commandments ?

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littlewing
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0 posted 04-15-2003 10:39 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

If Moses were Hebrew and God handed down the Ten Commandments to him - set forth to be brought to the Hebrew people (not forgetting the fact that Jesus was Hebrew himself) then what has brought the Commandments to the Roman Catholic religion seeing that the two beliefs are extremely diverse?
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Jason Lyle
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1 posted 04-16-2003 01:27 AM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Ok Sue, heres my best answer for you, Roman catholics are, in core beliefs, the same as most other christian religons, and one of the oldest.Here is how they view the history.

Jesus assigned to Peter the responsibility of creating the Christian church. Peter was the first pope. At his death, his work was continued by a continuous succession of popes. The 1st century CE popes were:  St. Peter (30 to 67 CE, approximately)
Linus ( 67 to 76)
Cletus (76 to 88)  
Clement of Rome (88 to 97)
St Evaristus (97 to 105) 1

The Roman Catholic church was a fully functioning organization with authority centered at Rome, as early as the middle of the 1st century. "History proves that from that time [of Peter] on, both in the East and the West, the successor of Peter was acknowledged to be the supreme head of the [Christian] Church."

Jesus' Apostles ordained bishops, who in turn ordained the next generation of bishops. This continuous line of ordination, called the apostolic succession, has continued down to the present day. Thus the authority for the ordination of a new bishop today could theoretically be traced back as far as the individual Apostles -- except that accurate records were not kept in the early decades of the Christian movements

That is how the Roman catholics tie themselves to the beginnings of christianity.
As to the 10 commandments being at the core of both religons.I think christians view the Hebrews as their beginnings, and ancestory.Up until the birth of Jesus, the roots and beliefs are the same.Christians believe that Jesus and his sacrifice changed the religon and its philosphy.Jews just believe Jesus was another hebrew prophet, a non conformer.So the religons became two.But the core of both stayed the same.Two religons, both fathered by Abraham(actually three, Islam was also fathered by Abraham).Does that explain it? that has got to be my most long winded reply, I love ancient history.
And finally, know what I think? I think everyone is talking to the same God anyway, so silly to see the world quarrel over God.
Jason
serenity blaze
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2 posted 04-16-2003 01:42 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Actually, I find the Catholic religion most closely tied to pagan roots--despite their protestations...<--oh the things I type!



and? as you know? I am more than willing to discussion, but in an open venue such as an internet forum, I find folks typically are more defensive than not--sigh--these "discussions" too often become a point of pride of debate skills than a true sharing of ideas---so?

So...grin..you KNOW where I am...

(I'll be the one wearing the tiara!)

Jason Lyle
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3 posted 04-16-2003 01:54 AM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

I can agree with that statement, when I think about it Rome was so pagan they considered Jews and christians, athiest, to them, to say that there was only one God, eliminated Romes whole pantheon of Gods.
I was stating that this was the Roman catholic view on their own history.
I would love to hear your views on it, I love this period in history and the shaping it had on our today.
Jason

[This message has been edited by Jason Lyle (04-16-2003 01:58 AM).]

littlewing
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4 posted 04-16-2003 04:25 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Jason:  that was quite an amazing reply there and I thank you - this question has confused me for ages . . .

You see I have this belief system called
"Sueism" yet was raised Roman Catholic
(you wonder why I am confused).  I do agree with a lot of what you have to say - moreso the Old Testament being the Hebrew part and the New being the Christian part.  

Looking into history myself and after speaking with people of varying Jewish faiths as well as Catholic - I have come up with this:

The core of the religions cannot be the same because the Hebrews believed Jesus to be a non - conformer - his own people - and that he indeed was not the Son of God.  The Christians believed that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins.  Thus, the core contrasts.  Resulting in the splitting of the two.  

My question then lies in the split.  If the Hebrews did not believe in Jesus as the Son of God, yet the Catholics did - then why did the Catholics hold onto the Ten Commandments?  It is a complete conflict of belief.  

How can one religion (Catholic) borrow beliefs from another (Hebrew) when they conflicted in the first place?

Karen:  I believe in the pagan blending - where each began is an entirely different ball of yarn - but around 100 B.C.E, the Roman Empire did invade the first Goidelic (Gaelic speaking) Celts.  Instead of imposing their faith - they fused them.  Celtic gods were worshipped along with Roman deities.

Each religion in itself believes that their faith leads to one source, being the Divine Spirit.

I do agree with you both when you say our paths lead to the same door.  That being spirituality.  The question remains then:  why the split and why was it necessary?
--------------------------------------------I am not starting a crusade - I only look for answers and opinions to enrich my own spirituality and welcome all opinions because my own encompass every belief system there is, other than anything obviously evil.  I myself, do not hold one belief as my own, besides that being that one force guides us all.    
  


    

[This message has been edited by littlewing (04-16-2003 04:48 AM).]

serenity blaze
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5 posted 04-16-2003 05:29 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"How can one religion (Catholic) borrow beliefs from another (Hebrew) when they conflicted in the first place?"

And the answer is---

grin.

like ya thought I had it, huh? k--I'll give a shot:

There is NO borrowing. There is no theft. There is only personal realization of Godhead that transcends time, culture, and laws of man. It's a very personal path. To assume superiority of one's OWN path, is to attempt to question the values of self vs. divine--and the lines of those answers define our limitations.

There are no easy answers. There are only easy questions.

And now? I really should go play with some clay or something, they might notice the facial tics, and come medicate me...

shudder

?
JP
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6 posted 04-16-2003 10:03 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

The answer can be found in the new testament.  Jesus did tell his follower (and I am paraphrasing because I am too lazy to pull out my bible and quote directly)

"I have not come to abolish the law, but to uphold it"

Jesus essentially told his followers that yes, he was a Jew and he did not come to the world to destroy Jewish law (beginning with the ten commandments), but to uphold the law.  As he himself observed  the laws of the old testament, he likewise instructed his followers to observe those laws.  Ultimately, God's law is God's law.  The arrival of the Christ (as believed by Christian's) does not nullify God's law, but did enhance it.

The enhancement came in the form of reform.  A calling back to the original intent of God's law and admonishment for the corruption of the organized religions and their practices of that time (Jesus said 'judge not lest ye be judged' - in a response to the practices of religious judgement and punishment for crimes against God's law.  Jesus was putting the authority for the enforcement of God's law back to God, whereas the pharasis (sp?) were in a big business of prosecuting for religious crimes.

Okay, I've gone on a bit, but I hope the point is clear...  The ten commandments are still God's law, believed to be so by Jew's and Christians alike.

Rev. JP Burns
Life's Grace Ministry


Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

[This message has been edited by JP (04-16-2003 10:04 AM).]

Ron
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7 posted 04-16-2003 03:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Actually, JP, I think the quote is "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

The Ten Commandments (the Law) provides the Hebrew path to righteousness and God. Yes, Jesus upheld the Law, obeying every command in every way. And He has been the ONLY man in all of history to ever do so. Unfortunately, there isn't any "I almost made it!" clauses in God's Law. To reach God through righteousness is all or nothing. The purpose of the Law, and indeed of the entire Old Testament, was to give mankind the opportunity to save itself. We couldn't do that, of course, because perfect obedience first requires perfection. But we had to be shown we couldn't do it on our own, else the fulfillment of the law would have been incomplete.

We couldn't do it, so Jesus did it for us. He fulfilled the law by strict and perfect adherence to the law, then passed on the benefits to us through grace and forgiveness. Not only is there is no conflict between the Old Testament and the New, but they, instead, compliment and reinforce each other.
Local Rebel
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8 posted 04-16-2003 11:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It should be noted that in the first century Christianity was a Jewish sect.  In fact, converts to Christianity had to first become Jewish if they weren't already.  This caused a rift between Paul -- the Apostle to the Gentiles -- and the church in Jerusalem headed by James (the brother of Jesus).

After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem the power base of the Jewish Church dwindled along with that of the other Hebrews.  

The Church in the west was able to survive and the gentile version is what has been passed down through the generations.
JP
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9 posted 04-17-2003 11:29 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

It serves to mention as well that many of the Catholic practices and beliefs (preisthood, sisterhood, confession, just to name a few) had its beginings from earlier established - non judeo/christian religions.  While I would never ascribe sinister motives to the catholic heirarchy, the original versions of thier religious structure were used as a "Big Brother" network, to keep an eye on the populace and an ear to the ground.

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Thomas119gold
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10 posted 04-17-2003 12:31 PM       View Profile for Thomas119gold   Email Thomas119gold   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Thomas119gold's Home Page   View IP for Thomas119gold

I am going through a course in the Catholic Church called New Wine. It is a 3-year course that explains why Catholics follow their traditions and how each Catholic can fulfill their part in Gods plan.

I am still learning.  I was confirmed two Easters ago.  My knowledge is still limited so I will only reply to topics Iím familiar with.

The early Christians became known as ďThe People of the WayĒ during the early part of our history.  They still went to Jewish synagogues and participated in the church.  The huge separation between the two did not start until after the destruction of the Jewish temple.

Most Jewish Christians fled into the areas of Turkey, Greece, Syria, India and Italy.  This caused a rift in traditional Jewish values.  Jewish Christians were also being bared from the synagogues.  Paul is the one who expanded Christianity to include gentiles and not just Jews.  The Gentiles of the time brought in their points of view and beliefs into the church.  Paul was a lawyer and one of the few educated apostles. (Remember most of the other apostles were common men.  Peter was a fisherman) Most people donít realize how deep the Catholic religion is rooted in Jewish tradition.  An example is a SEDAR MEAL and the significance it plays in our lives.

Well I am at work and I can explain better when I am not looking over my shoulder for the boss so I will finish this later.

Thomas
Jason Lyle
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11 posted 04-17-2003 03:39 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

To add to JPs' post, all hebrew and christian religons share a past in earlier pagan religons, notably Baal, a God of Palistine.Abrahams monotheistic God, Yahweh translates early to mountian God, a warrior God.
Jason
Aenimal
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12 posted 04-18-2003 12:13 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Well if you're looking for logic in catholicism you won't find it. First of all consider that Jesus himself NEVER wished to create a new religion but to reform Judaism and that is where any Hebrew influence seeps through to the new testament, through his speeches.

When you consider the early history of Christianity you'll find the split between Jesus' view, as carried on by James his brother and the apostles, with Paul's view.
I don't know about you but I think I'd trust the brother of Jesus more so than say Paul who was a roman outsider and rumoured spy.

If one reads Paul's views in Acts, Apostles and his other Epistles one finds a man on the run, literally forced and kicked out by the other apostles for his radical changes. He is even lashed. He admits to all of this of course but cleanly absolves himself by saying Jesus appeared to him in the desert as he ran and had told him he was to do these things.

Pauline christianity greatest influence is the bastardization or absolute erasure of the Hebrew element for introduction to Roman audiences. This is where the pagan element is most visible. To work with the roman audience there are drastic changes in its ceremonies, its holy dates now coincide with pagan holidays, etc..

Also the NT has a way of absolving any Roman wrong doing and placing it on the jews. Pontius Pilate is historically known to be one of the most ruthless tyrants not the kind and benevolent leader portrayed in the NT. Also there are absolutely NO record or known tradition whereby the romans allowed one criminal to walk free by vote of the jews.

Christianity's origins and roots are muddled at best thanks to the persecution of the early christians and the destruction or hiding of early christian thought (read the New Testament Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha for insight, these were books of the bible later excluded for their radical and conflicting views with the new catholicism)

Oh god both K and Sue know I can go on forever but I won't..must...hold..tongue in check..on this..holy...day
JP
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13 posted 04-18-2003 01:31 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Wow, there is sooo much to address in the previous reply I don't even no where, or if, to begin...

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Aenimal
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14 posted 04-18-2003 02:00 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Well don't be shy JP lol I don't bite, I'm not a scholar but I've studied christianity for quite awhile now. The wonderful thing in studying Christianity is that it is a fairly recent relegion shaped over the course of DOCUMENTED history. Which is a beautiful thing when researching cause and effect. There are truths for those who seek but not what most would want to see. But I only came to add my two cents worth as to the rift between Hebrew and Catholic dogma..  

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-18-2003 02:00 PM).]

Denise
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15 posted 04-18-2003 05:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Law has been upheld and fulfilled (by Christ through his life), the price for sin has been paid for all men (by Christ through his sacrificial death). All that remains is the personal acceptance of that sacrifice on oneís behalf, through faith (trust) in what Christ has already done, as sufficient. We can't, as Ron said, establish our own righteousness through the keeping of the Law. It'll never happen.

Here are some excerpts from the site below that put the focus where it needs to be, relative to the Law, and our standing in the eyes of God.
http://www.e-grace.net/archive_jan02.html#Propitiation: Satisfying God's Justice
quote:
It is hardly appropriate to put together an issue of Christian Chronicles about the crucifixion without specifying what the significance of that deed was. And is. That central event in human history involves no less than the complete execution of Godís judgment on sin for all time. The sin question was settled at Calvary. Today, we have a faith issue instead of a sin issue.

We often think of the cross of Christ as a display of the love and mercy of God, and it is just that, and infinitely so. Yet, in the cross is also displayed the righteousness and justice of God. His provision of a Substitute for the sinner demonstrated Godís mercy because of His love. His righteous judgment of sin upon His Son, our Substitute, demonstrated Godís justice because of His righteousness. The Law demands death for sin; Christ was our death, even as He is our life.

quote:
Because of Christís propitiation, Godís wrath toward manís sin is satisfied. The way is now open for Him to justly receive the sinner, having satisfied the demands of His holy wrath Himself by pouring out that wrath on His own Son, who gathered the wages of the sinnersí sins in Himself on the cross. Lewis Sperry Chafer writes, ďAttention should be called to the fact that God saves a sinner or restores a saint without striking a blow or even offering a word of criticism. It is too often supposed that human repentance and sorrow soften the heart of God and render Him propitious. It is the legal fact that Christ has borne all sin which renders God propitious. (emphasis added) The most determining truth to which all gospel preaching should be harmonized is that God is propitious; thus all the burden is taken off sinner or Christian, only leaving him to believe that through Christ's bearing his sin God is propitious.Ē

Balladeer
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16 posted 04-18-2003 09:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron writes:

We couldn't do that, of course, because perfect obedience first requires perfection. But we had to be shown we couldn't do it on our own, else the fulfillment of the law would have been incomplete.

It's always curious how we can read something and come up with such different thoughts....especially concerning the Bible!

My take on it is, respectfully, the opposite. In Exodus we come to know the true personality of God. God was not the good humor ice cream man. God was a very stern, unforgiving and even vindictive being. There are many events to justify these thoughts. Consider the plagues of Egypt. God commanded Moses to deliver ultimatums to the Pharaoh under penalty of a plague striking the city...and He made it impossible for the Pharaoh to concede! Each time Pharaoh wanted to say ok, God hardened his heart so that he wouldn't give in and then sent another plague. His reasoning was obvious...He wanted to teach Pharaoh a lesson and perpetrated this facade of giving a choice to drive the point home...culminating with the killing of thousands of newborn babies. One could call that rather harsh. God sent an angel to kill Moses. His crime? He had not had one of his sons circumcized. Even the footnotes in the Bible plead Moses' case in that....Moses had spent a good part of his life as Egyptian royalty. Then he fled into the desert, got married, had sons. Afterwards God presented himself to him. Moses was then charged with being God's representative in the dealings with the Pharaoh. It is very easy to speculate that Moses had not had the circumcision done simply because it slipped his mind. It had not been a requirement when the child was born because Moses hadn't met God yet. It could have simply been a mistake...not a deliberate attempt to disobey God. That make a difference? Nope. God sent an angel to kill him anyway...kill Moses, the mortal he had hand-selected to be his spokesperson and representative for that simple lack of action - and He would have had not Moses' wife performed the circumcision in that moment, satisfying God's wrath. Doesn't this sound like a little bit of an over-reaction? The thing was that God was not by nature a compassionate or forgiving being. What are the penalties for disobeying the Ten COmmandments? For Thou Shalt Not Kill, the penalty is death. For raising a hand against one's mother or father, the penalty was death. For the majority of God's laws, the penalty was death. God was the first advocate of capital punishment. Obey His law or die...that was the bottom line. When Moses came down with the ten Commandments and saw the debauchery and praying to false idols and the drunkenness that had taken place during his absence, God told Moses He was going to kill them all. Not deal with...not forgive...kill..period. Moses did his best to reason with Him, pointing out that it would serve no purpose to rescue them from Egypt only to kill them in the desert. God relented..the Bible says He 'regretted' his decision to kill them. This is very important. First, these examples show that God was a strict, unforgiving and ruthless entity. Second, it showed that, in spite of that, he could be swayed to change his mind by a mortal. It happened twice....once by Moses' wife and once by Moses himself. What important thing does this say? To the Christians this say that Jesus Christ is the best friend they will ever have. Jesus became the buffer. Humanity was the class, Jesus the teacher, and God the principal. You did not want to get sent to the principal's office without your teacher speaking in your behalf!

So that is why, Ron, I have a different idea of it all being a lesson to show humanity that it could not be perfect. I believe that, by God's actions, He expected perfection at that time and was willing to kill whatever, or whoever, did not meet His demands. You don't kill an entire race to show them a lesson because what lesson could be learned by the dead? That's what He was ready to do. It did not make God more compassionate because He later refused Moses entrance to the promised land after forty years of wandering in the desert for the simple reason that Moses had struck a rock instead of speaking to it to get water from it...but it at least saved the Jews at that time.

    My thoughts would be that Jesus was created by God to be the one being on Earth capable of following all of God's laws. So what did Jesus do? He became the champion of the sinners (the rest of us) and, through his sacrifice, appeased God's wrath and convinced Him that our survuval was worthwhile, even with all of our imperfections. If not for Jesus, I think humanity would have disappeared long ago from God's wrathful hand as an experiment that just didn't work out.

Denise quote:

It is too often supposed that human repentance and sorrow soften the heart of God and render Him propitious. It is the legal fact that Christ has borne all sin which renders God propitious. (emphasis added)

You can't be more right, Denise. Repentance and sorrow does not soften God's heart. God is love - but it is a tough love, not giving in to repentance or excuse.

These reasons make me feel that it must be a bit more comforting to be a Christian as opposed to a Jew. With God being the unforgiving, brutal and vindictive being He has occasionally shown Himself to be, I would not rest easy without the belief that there is a counter-balance working in my favor. Of course, Jews may think I'm nuts for thinking that...and they could be right! Wouldn't be the first time and these are only thoughts of mine alone, nothing more....are any of them valid? God only knows...

littlewing
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17 posted 04-20-2003 07:34 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

stunning replies - I will be back to address them seperately . . .
Thomas119gold
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18 posted 04-21-2003 09:24 AM       View Profile for Thomas119gold   Email Thomas119gold   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Thomas119gold's Home Page   View IP for Thomas119gold

My head hurts
to much to consider
JP
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19 posted 04-21-2003 06:00 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Again... Wow!

Okay Balladeer, so God is strict, he sets the rules and has one punishment for failure to adhere to those rules... sounds kinda efficient

So let's consider this:  Here is God, he knows he is strict, he know's his creation cannot adhere to his laws because they are not perfect (although he made them to be and they frigged that up from the begining) so God is sitting there having tea, thinking to himself "I am a jealous, righteous, and strict God, but I am a loving God - my children are running around down there all amuck-like, what should I do?"

"I know!  Since the penalty for not obeying my laws is death, I will send my son down there and he can die in the place of those ruffians... that way, they will not be held to a standard they can never achieve, and I will be able to bring them home when the time is right."

So, he strict, jealous, righteous, 'harsh' but willing to sacrifice his only Son on our behalf - pretty loving I think.

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Balladeer
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20 posted 04-21-2003 06:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

JP...

God drinks tea??? I'd never considered that, although I'm sure Englishmen at least agree.

Actually, I have a different view than the one you present....and, believe me, I'm not claiming that mine is right because I am flying as blind as you or anyone else who tries to claim they have the answers. All we can have are our opinions based on how we perceive the Bible.

My view is that God didn't send His Son down in order to sacrifice Him. My view is that He sent Jesus to have one being on Earth capable of living by God's laws...perhaps to serve as an example to humanity that it could indeed be done. Of course that didn't work completely because man is man and therefore imperfect. I think that when God saw that He decided elimination was the answer. What did Jesus do? He said no! He opted to side with humanity because He believed in the goodness of humanity, regardless of the fact they were imperfect. "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." I can even imagine, in my fancy, a lively conversation between God and Jesus with God saying why are you sticking up for those bozos? They're a mess!..and Jesus saying yes, but they have goodness of heart and cannot help their weaknesses. Then I believe it was Jesus, not God, who decided to sacrifice his life for humanity's sake. When God saw this, that Jesus felt so strongly He was willing to sacrifice His own life for mankind - He, the one without sin giving His own life for the lives of the sinners, He allowed Jesus' sacrifice to offset the sins of mankind and spared them.

So I don't believe that it was all a preconceived plan of God's to send down his Son and sacrifice Him. It was Jesus pleading for man that led to His willingness to give His life to give mankind a new chance....that's how I see it and any similarity between my views and the actual truth is purely coincidental
Ron
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21 posted 04-21-2003 08:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

So, you don't believe God is omniscient, Mike? God, and by extension Jesus, are capable of making mistakes and thus imperfect?
Balladeer
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22 posted 04-21-2003 08:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That is one excellent question, Ron, and one that makes any faith I may have as brittle as a three-day-old icicle. No, I do not believe He is. There are too many contradictions to consider Him so. If He had known Adam and Eve were going to destroy the sanctity of Eden, why let them...or even create them? If He had known Egyptians were going to hold Jews in bondage, why create Egyptians? If He truly wanted everyone to be perfect and have them follow His laws, why not just make them perfect? I believe God had the power to create and destroy but not the power to control. He could set the events in motion but they would proceed according to their own plan, or destiny..from what the world is it appears to me that He can punish or reward but not control, otherwise why is there so much evil in the world? Why so much sin? Earth's history is filled with war, brutality, murder, injustices. If God truly can control everything, then why has it ben so? Why did God have to punish the Pharaoh with the plagues to teach him a lesson? Why not just change his heart?

If one believes that God is indeed omniscient, then one must believe that God has directed events to make the world what it is today and what it has been in the past..that all of the wars, brutality and man's inhumanity to man are by His design. If one believes that, then one cannot believe that God is love. Quite a conundrum, isn't it? We thank God for His mercies but we don't blame him for atrocities....why not if He is all-knowing and all-controlling?

Do I think God and Jesus are imperfect? No. I simply believe they do not foretell the future...they watch and they make decisions based on the progression of events. That's not an imperfection....

Hopefully, I am not displaying a lack of respect for those who feel otherwise.....
Thomas119gold
Senior Member
since 06-03-2002
Posts 719
Biloxi, MS (city by the sea)


23 posted 04-22-2003 09:23 AM       View Profile for Thomas119gold   Email Thomas119gold   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Thomas119gold's Home Page   View IP for Thomas119gold

No you  have some good points but as you said yourself

"believe me, I'm not claiming that mine is right because I am flying as blind as you or anyone else who tries to claim they have the answers. All we can have are our opinions based on how we perceive the Bible."

Mine is God allows us freedom to worship him or not to worship him.

Free choice is what makes our worship of him so special.

Oh and I think he has a huge sense of humor

Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


24 posted 04-22-2003 11:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exactly my thoughts, Thomas. God granted man free will and allowed him to make his own decisions - and mistakes. God doesn't know the future any more than we do. He just keeps looking into this petri dish we call Earth and probably shakes his head slowly in wonder - and possibly amusement.

Someone once said that it is impossible to look at the platypus and not believe that God has a sense of humor!

 
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