How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Ten Commandments ?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Ten Commandments ?

  Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


125 posted 04-30-2003 10:17 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I didn't leave the "ruling" phrase out, Mike, either in my quote or in my examples. Those I listed, and many others, are actions sanctioned by those who rule. They are tools being used to rule a nation.

And I certainly didn't redefine any of your words. Since you didn't define anything, I couldn't very well redefine anything.

Surely you realize, with the exception of genocide, all of your terms are relative to the observer. Murder, kill, execute and assassinate all mean the same thing. We may execute a convicted criminal, but those against such things will always see it as murder. We justify those deaths by consensus (more or less) and law, but do you really think Hussein didn't feel he could justify his murders, too?

Again, I know exactly what you mean, Mike. But you are NOT saying it. You're throwing a bunch of very loaded words on the table, apparently in hopes one will go off. Sure, virtually everyone in the world will agree with you that rule by murder is wrong. But the agreement is going to end quickly when you try to define what murder really means.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


126 posted 04-30-2003 10:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

ok, I give.....

I do have to come back and say that, after reading your response again, for the life of me I can't make any sense out of it. That's ok..I'll keep not defining anything and throwing loaded words out on the table and you keep asking what "is" is.....and life goes on

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (05-01-2003 12:15 AM).]

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


127 posted 04-30-2003 11:16 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Crazy Eddie no no don't think I believe it all I only used them as examples because alot of theories were condensed into one. Made things easier for me then spouting off a list of a thousand books. My point is that and this works with the fairy tail of Baignent's work as well, that words can be bent and shaped by whomever reads them. The examples I used were not from Baignents books alone But as an atheist or agnostic, whatever the hell I am. I took a long hard look at the history of the religion I was raised in and to claim the words are law knowing how the words were chosen and how the church was formed simply does not wash with me. Now I'm not attacking catholics solely but within this thread White Rose's thread asserted that it was the way of Jesus and nothing else. The beauty as I mentioned earlier. of catholicism is that it lies within recorded history and the scriptured word vs historical word reveal a tonne of inconstistences about this man who later became deified. The main fault with Pauline thought is Paul himself. If you believe that James is the brother and blood of Jesus then how do you justify the rift between James teachings and those of the outsider Paul who admits this. Also while the blood and the holy grail became a fantastic mystery it veered from its good points. That's why I suggested Dead Sea Scrolls conspiracy because the historical and Biblical studies included within took a more straight forward and scholarly approach and fits in well with the original topic of this thread

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-30-2003 11:19 PM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


128 posted 05-01-2003 12:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

White Rose
quote:

Rebel,

Judaism a religion or not?

Yes, it is. So is Catholicism, so is Islam and all the others.

The difference is, I do not have religion. I have a relationship.



I'm still trying to correlate this to your original statement that Catholicism is the world's oldest religion and that bit about preists and satanism.

Now, if I'm getting you right, you're saying that the problem with Catholicism is that it is a religion?

quote:

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and they fashioned clothing out of fig leaves, that's man made religion. It's the covering of their sin. Man has been trying to cover his sin ever since then with his religion.


Well I'll strip out of my skivvies if you will.


Jason -- when you and all the other folks get to heaven please be VERY VERY quiet.... you don't want to disturb Rose.
littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


129 posted 05-01-2003 05:14 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

I have been raised Roman Catholic - I believe (I did say believe) that whatever we abide by leads to the same path in the end  and that no one person is condemned to "Hell" for their beliefs and that as long as we lead a considerably good life - we will all be ok.

I must include these statements - for they are the only ones that make any sense to me at all:

God, I feel out of my league to even post again, I thought I knew my history but some of you guys are amazing. But after reading several post that to me smack of bigotry......Catholics are not christians? Judaism is not a religon? Pity the non-christian, they will go to hell? I can only hope that God is not truly as shallow as we are.I know of christian sects that worship with snakes, and others that practice polegamy(sp?)I have friends that are practicing christian jews (is that a conflict?) Muslims revere Jesus Christ as a great prophet.All of these religons have deep pagan roots.And as to the bible? does the "inspired word of God" , mean the dictated word of God? God can inspire me, And his inspiration can lead me to write joyous words.One thousand years from now, if those words are added to the King James, does that make the "book of Jason Lyle", the word of God? Once again, these arguments seem shallow to me, they seem beneath Gods' intent.I go to a catholic church, was raised in the church of christ, have called myself an athiest at times.I truly believe if I go to a place called heaven, And meet a being called God. I will find many good people of many differant faiths. And I think we will find out that God never cared if we called him Yahweh, or prayed to (through) Mary, or welcomed the day with alms to Allah,or practiced Buhddism. God does not practice bigotry.
Jason Lyle



. . . let me share with you an important lesson the catholic church learned early in this century. With the popularity of philosophy the church found itself faced with its most serious threat, a populace of educated, intelligent and extremely curious people who began to question the church's authority and the scripture's themselves. The Catholic Church decided to fight fire with fire and formed a group out of it's most intelligent and promising clerics in order to combat logic with logic. The problem was that once the clerics themselves were let loose in the vaults to arm themselves with deeper knowledge in an effort to counterattack most all of them abrubtly left the church disillusioned with what they've learned.
- Raphael



. . . everything beyond that is down to personal belief based on highly questionable evidence.
- Crazy Eddie



Anyone who truly believes they have "the answer" is a fool if they announce it and a hypocrite if they don't. The recalcitrant alcoholic doesn't want our sympathy. The delirious man dying of a high fever doesn't want our help. The abused child doesn't want to be taken from their mother, and the patriotic Iraqi doesn't want our interference. But if you know you have the answer that will save the alcoholic, cure the dying man, protect the child, and free the Iraqi, how can any decent human being willfully ignore their obligation to help? Ironically, I think those most apt to bristle at the uninvited prayers of a Christian are the ones the least likely to stand by and do nothing when they are called upon to make their own decision.
- Ron



The more one learns, the more one studies history, philosophy, ancient civilizations and their religions, the wiser one becomes. - Opeth

It's too bad there isn't any salvation from religious bigotry. - Local Rebel[/b]

So? wanna start a thread on "how orange is orange?"  - Ed

I still go along with the bumper sticker that states "Dear God, protect me from your followers".  - Balladeer


I took a long hard look at the history of the religion I was raised in and to claim the words are law knowing how the words were chosen and how the church was formed simply does not wash with me.
- Raphael



I'm still trying to correlate this to your original statement that Catholicism is the world's oldest religion and that bit about preists and satanism.
- Local Rebel



Whew!  Ok what I have surmised here that makes any sense - sorry if I missed a few  but the ones stated above are relevant in every way.  What I do not believe in is that we go to "Hell" for not living the life according to the Bible.  (In my opinion, it is a guidebook - nothing more -I take from it which applies to my life and I think God is ok with that seeing as I havent been engulfed in the flames of hellfire.  Not yet anyhow.  *Wink*

The words of the bible are taken much too literal.  Passages are misconstrued and followed word for word.  This is not what was intended.  In the Bible, it does say that time is eternal and that one day is like a thousand days.  EX:  do you actually believe it took seven days to create everything?  Of course not.  That is just foolish. This is mans' understanding of ho wtime works, not God.  It was written so man could understand.  

As for the notion that we all must be saved - quite frankly - the word "saved" scares me.  EX:  My neice, who is eighteen, has led a pure life, never done anything wrong, is a sweet soul etc.  She has never been baptized, accepted Christ in the church or confirmed.  Do I believe that if the world ended tomorrow, that she would go straight to Hell? OF COURSE NOT.  Why?  

This is not how God works

This is how organized religion works, and not all , but most.  It is ludicrous to think that God would not accept any one of his children - no matter their belief, color, sexual preference or the number of times they worshipped (another scary word) Him.  

To denounce any religion, or belief system, in my opinion - is a direct contradiction of the very thing that history itself has "tried" to teach us.  That being the simple phrase:  LOVE ONE ANOTHER . . .

Like I said, I take parts that apply to my life and this one certainly does apply to us all:

Matthew: 5: 43-48: (this is a direct quote of Jesus)
"You have heard that it was said, "Love your neighbor and hate your enemy."  
But I tell you:  Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven.  He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous . . . "

I tend to stick to the Psalms . . . they are first to last poetry, impassioned, vivid and concrete, rich in image, simile,  metaphor, assonance, alliteration and wordplay.  The psalms cry out in distress and give voice to suffering in a hostile and evil world.





  

"The story of life is quicker than the wink of an eye . . . the story of love is hello and goodbye.  Until we meet again."   - James Marshall Hendrix

[This message has been edited by littlewing (05-01-2003 09:00 AM).]

WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 07-23-2002
Posts 3310
somebody's dungeon


130 posted 05-01-2003 09:00 AM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

(Rom 1:16)  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This is clearly not the place.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


131 posted 05-01-2003 11:09 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

WhiteRose,

You never (re)answered my question in post 99. Just read that post and explain it to me.

Your first answer did not answer it.

Btw...until the early Christian church began to mix their beliefs with the philosphical teachings of Socrates and Plato, the term "hades" did not mean a place where souls lived on after death. It only meant the grave or a hole in a ground where people are buried.

Much of Christian doctrine, today, is based on "pagan" Greek philosophy. And of course, Christianity itself is a derivitive of both Judaism and Egyptian religion.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (05-01-2003 11:11 AM).]

WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 07-23-2002
Posts 3310
somebody's dungeon


132 posted 05-01-2003 11:48 AM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Well drats, you just aren't gonna let me out of here are you?

Read your above quote and answer me this, if the thief was to be with Christ in Paradise (which may not be heaven, yet another debate, but I'll give you that paradise means heaven in this verse) on that very day, yet Christ did not go to heaven on that very day, because he was in hades for 3 days and 3 nights - explain how the thief got to heaven two days before Christ?


So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

That Christ means himself by the "son of man", there is no reason to doubt; and his being laid in a tomb, dug out of a rock, is sufficient to answer this phrase, "the heart of the earth" *John Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible*

Not that his Spirit would be in Hades 3 days, but that his Body would lay in the tomb (or the heart of the earth) for 3 days. The heart of the earth is not a reference to Hades.

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (05-01-2003 11:49 AM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


133 posted 05-01-2003 12:03 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I understand what you are saying. You are separating Christ from his body, stating that his body lie dead for three days and three nights, but his spirit went to heaven after visiting spirits in hades on that same day with the thief.

Yes, I now remember that same answer was given to me many years ago.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (05-01-2003 12:17 PM).]

WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 07-23-2002
Posts 3310
somebody's dungeon


134 posted 05-01-2003 12:09 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Maybe I am not making myself clear. So I'll try to be more precise.

Jesus is not a gopher. He did not burrow through earth to get to Hades. His "Spirit descended to Hades, and then to heaven.

His body laid in the tomb for 3 days. But his "Spirit" did not. After His Spirit descended to Hades, it ascended to Heaven.

Therefore, and I want to be really, really clear on this. He was in Heaven that very day. The same time as the thief.

Just in case you completely missed what I said in post 132, I said, that the "heart of the earth", wasn't a reference to Hades, but to the tomb, where His Body in fact, laid for three days.

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (05-01-2003 12:09 PM).]

WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 07-23-2002
Posts 3310
somebody's dungeon


135 posted 05-01-2003 12:14 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

One more point. You really don't believe that anyone is arriving in heaven with this flesh that we are stuck with here on earth do you? You know, clothes and all we're just knocking on heavens door with a howdy do, perhaps with our purses and wallets?

No ones body goes to heaven when they die.

This physical body will still be in the coffin while our Spirit is either in heaven or in hell. We won't have a body until we get our resurrected bodies, and that's a whole other issue which I will not get into.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


136 posted 05-01-2003 12:18 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

You believe that. I don't.



I still won't condemn you for your beliefs.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


137 posted 05-01-2003 12:22 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

White Rose please answer if you could a few questions. If the words are static then why all the different factions of christianity?
Why the incredible differences between the gospels? Why the rift between the original disciples and BROTHER of Jesus with Paul?
Why does theology and dogma spawned from a roman enforcer's words (ACTS 9 Paul was Saul of Tarsus before his conversion for those who may not know, he was enlisted by the Temple to ferret out and supress or kill the early christians the 'heretical' jews ) mean more than that of Jesus' disciples?

In the Acts of the Apostles Paul is summoned to meet with James and the disciples community for what the deem as non-observance of the Law. Paul himself admits his word is in direct opposition and accepts a ritual of purification to amend his sin. Once released he is again found to be ignoring the word and law of James and the community for his own brand of preaching. So why should his word in direct opposition to Jesus's disciples be the proper way?

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


138 posted 05-01-2003 12:29 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Just when I thought I was outta here...

"You really don't believe that anyone is arriving in heaven with this flesh that we are stuck with here on earth do you?"

~ The bible states that one must be born again, so no, I don't believe that. However, the bible states that one is not born again until the second coming. I believe the bible teaches that all human beings who have died are dead - their thoughts have perished, and that the only hope they have for eternal life is the ressurection, which will occur during Christ's second coming. And that hasn't happened yet.

"You know, clothes and all we're just knocking on heavens door with a howdy do, perhaps with our purses and wallets?"

~ I don't believe the bible teaches that any person "goes to heaven." I believe the bible teaches that heaven comes to earth.

"This physical body will still be in the coffin while our Spirit is either in heaven or in hell."

~ Why? If people are already suffering in hell or worshipping in heaven, why do a 180 and come back down to be put back in decaying bodies?  Why are people immediately in heaven or hell and they haven't yet been judged?

The bible does not teach this, Satan does.

"We won't have a body until we get our resurrected bodies, and that's a whole other issue which I will not get into."

~ You, WhiteRose, have been duped by the false churches of Christianity. You believe in pagan philophies mixed with truth. Christ and his apostles warned people like you to don't be swayed by Satan and his ministers of righteousness.  

God warned all of his creations not to mix pagan philosphies with his truth and you and your false church, as all the other false christian churches have done so.

But I still don't condemn you. You are not being called right now...that is all.

You will be called when the Kingdom is set-up on earth and then all men will worship God on HIS Sabbath day, not the false sabbath of men.  

Men and women at that time will be taught by born-again saints, not by false preachers.

Most will choose to accept Christ and only the very few will reject Him. There fate is an eternal punishment of everlasting death.

Death = nonexistence.

Have a great weekend.
WhiteRose
Member Elite
since 07-23-2002
Posts 3310
somebody's dungeon


139 posted 05-01-2003 02:08 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Aenimal and Opeth,

I could go on and answer your questions, but I'm not going to. I was just going to stop posting to this thread, without saying anything, but I feel an explantion needs to be given.

I think when I stumbled in here and posted something that had to do with God, I might as well have thrown a piece of meat in the midst of a school of sharks.

If I honestly thought that these questions were being posed because anyone who posed them really wanted to learn more about God, I would have no problem.

But, since the responses by Ron, and Deer, and Rebel, and others would lead me to believe this really is about "let's have some fun with the Christian and see how many names we can call her, and let's see if we can trip her up with some questions", I really just don't think that the Lord would have me stay for the actual crucifixtion. One in history was enough.

So, again, if anyone is sincerely wishing to get some answers, my email is in my profile.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


140 posted 05-01-2003 02:25 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

With much objection...

"If I honestly thought that these questions were being posed because anyone who posed them really wanted to learn more about God, I would have no problem."

~ Are you ready to or are you able to open yourself up to other possibilities?

You see WhiteRose, I was where you are at now. I believed in all of what you have written here. I abided by what I was taught.

But as I began to read and study the bible, I kept finding contradictions and illogical explanations of various biblical topics.

I don't know about you, but at that point I got down on my knees and prayed like I had never prayed before - asking God to show me HIS truth.  

The more I prayed, the more I was able to realize that what I was being taught was bogus.

I didn't ask for it. Unlike yourself, I wanted to keep ahold of beliefs. I wanted to stay with the status quo = traditional christian doctrine beliefs. I did not want to become a piriah in my community.

I had no reason to stop believing in what you believe.

But was I to lie to myself?  And just forget what I came to know and understand?

Many people told me to just forget about it, it doesn't matter if things can't be explained.

But wasn't I praying to the same God as they?

I was able to understand things by completely ridding myself of any biases or my own worldview, yes I had that ability.

"But, since the responses by Ron, and Deer, and Rebel, and others would lead me to believe this really is about "let's have some fun with the Christian and see how many names we can call her, and let's see if we can trip her up with some questions", I really just don't think that the Lord would have me stay for the actual crucifixtion. One in history was enough."

~ Oh really. The poor Christian routine. No, WhiteRose, you are not persecuted. You don't know what persecution is. You have your church and friends all believing the same Jesus. This country looks highly upon Christianity.

You don't know what persecution is until your own friends and peers turn their backs on you and call you satan or even have one of your friends try to cast a demon out of you because all you did was pray to the same God for understanding.

P-lease, give me a break.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (05-01-2003 02:27 PM).]

Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


141 posted 05-01-2003 02:26 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

White Rose "let's have some fun with the Christian and see how many names we can call her, and let's see if we can trip her up with some questions"?

I don't think anybody called you any names but i do recall you basically denouncing every religion but your own. My efforts were not to denoucnce christianity or your beliefs but if you question the importance of others that why not question your own. You gave many quotes of scriptures as if the christian view was the only valid one. I just want to remind you that Whitesupremitists and Neo-Nazis can also quote reasons passages as fodder for their agendas. The words are vague and flexible and should be read and used with caution.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


142 posted 05-01-2003 02:28 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

[Personal attack removed - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (05-01-2003 03:01 PM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


143 posted 05-01-2003 02:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

littlewing

I think this thread has challenged you in ways that you hadn't anticipated... it's nice to see a young person respond to a challenge

Rose -- believe me... I was easy on you -- if I'd wanted to rip into you I would have -- I wanted to discover your thought process.

You had a reason to post here.  One can't expect to say things in a forum open to the world and expect that it won't go unchallenged.  Everybody challenges everybody -- especially me -- but, if you ask Opeth I'm sure he'll point out that he's the one that always gets picked on

Ron, was defending you dear lady -- he did nothing to you at all.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


144 posted 05-01-2003 02:30 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

You don't know what persecution is until your own friends and peers turn their backs on you and call you satan or even have one of your friends try to cast a demon out of you because all you did was pray to the same God for understanding.

Excellent Opeth, from one who knows. Another poor christian being crucified..cooooooooome ooooon...yeeeesh

and btw
"We won't have a body until we get our resurrected bodies, and that's a whole other issue which I will not get into."

a)Is that with or without the decay and
b) is there a possibility i can excahnge mine for say Brad Pitt's?
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


145 posted 05-01-2003 03:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It's a shame that some equate humorous (sic) sarcasm with actual communication. I guess if you can't piece together a cogent response, making fun of others is what you have to fall back on? It's even more sad, though, when others attack someone for doing EXACTLY what they themselves repeatedly do.

This thread serves no useful purpose. I sincerely hope those unwilling to practice respect and tolerance don't find themselves soon following the thread into forum oblivion.
 
  Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Ten Commandments ?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors