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Passions in Poetry

Ten Commandments ?

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WhiteRose
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100 posted 04-30-2003 02:16 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Believing in Christianity, and believing and trusting in Jesus are two different things. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

I believe everything that the Bible says is true. I believe it is the inspired Word of God. I think you are taking issue with the wrong person here. If you have an issue with what God says, than I suggest you take it up with God.

What I posted about Jesus and His trip to Hades was taken from *The Revelation Record, A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the book of Revelation, by Henry M. Morris

I did not find it to be illogical, but to be scripturally sound from what I already knew to be truth from reading the Bible myself.

But again, you are entitled to your opinion.

Let me leave you with this thought,

"Just because you do not perceive a thing to be a truth, does not make it any less, in fact,  a truth".
Opeth
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The Ravines


101 posted 04-30-2003 02:18 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

And yes, it does make a difference...a big difference, because the Bible are words translated and written through thousands of years by men varying in cultures, each with their own slant and worldviews, just as any other religion ever recorded.
Opeth
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102 posted 04-30-2003 02:21 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Just because you do not perceive a thing to be a truth, does not make it any less, in fact,  a truth".

~ I can say the same to you, so could a Buddhist or a Muslim.
WhiteRose
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103 posted 04-30-2003 02:25 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Rebel,

The Jewish people, and those who convert to Judaism, if they are lost and without Christ, and do not believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and the saving power of it, are lost and without Christ.  

You do not go to heaven based on your religion. That is decided on by this fact and this fact alone. What it is you did with Jesus Christ. Either you accepted Him, or you did not.

That's pretty simple really. I've known many Jewish people who were gloriously saved. The associate pastor or our church was born a jew, and will always be a jew actually, for that is not a religion, but a race, but he is now a child of God, for he accepted the precious gift of salvation.

What do I think of the Jewish people? My heart aches for them. They are still God's chosen people, and the great commission states, "to the Jew first".

It is every born again Christians duty to pray for Israel, and the Jewish people, for they are lost, and without Christ, and in need of salvation, as is every man, woman and child that is born on this earth.
WhiteRose
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104 posted 04-30-2003 02:29 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Opeth,

There is only one absolute truth in this world, and that, is the truth of the Word of God. When I made that statement, that is the truth that I was talking about.

By the way, I didn't make that up, I read it somewhere, and at the moment I cannot recall where. I would give credit where credit is due, and will as soon as I figure out where I read it.

hmmmm..I thought we were going to agree to disagree
WhiteRose
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105 posted 04-30-2003 02:44 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

And yes, it does make a difference...a big difference, because the Bible are words translated and written through thousands of years by men varying in cultures, each with their own slant and worldviews, just as any other religion ever recorded.

Well this just never seems to end.

No other Holy text has withstood the test of time like the Bible. No other religious writing comes together perfectly the way the Bible does. 66 books, written by more than one man, but all inspired by God, that perfectly fits together. There are no contradictions, there are no imperfections. And it makes the claim of itself that it is in fact the inspired word of God. No other religious writing makes such a claim.

I will tell you just what I told someone the other day. There are many verses of scripture, I won't post them here, for I don't think you'd put much stock in them anyway, that state why it is the lost do not understand His word, and the saved do.

If you had a book that you were reading and you came across something that you did not understand, wouldn't it be nice to have the author handy to explain it to you. Well, I do. Once a person is saved, they then have the Holy Spirit living within them. God, through the Holy Spirit (also God) authored the Word of God.

I read the Bible many times before I got saved. It didn't mean much to me, and I was confused more often than not by most of what it said. When I got saved, it was opened up to me in ways I can't even describe to you. I no longer had any questions about it's doctrines, it's truths, and it literally came alive to me.

It is so obviously the love letter of my Lord to me, and to anyone who trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ, and can only be said to be breathed from the very mouth of God.

That is what I believe, that is what I know, and I would not deny this fact, or my Lord, were I facing complete alienation from every person in this forum. My faith is who I am. Of myself I can do nothing, but;  (Phi 4:13)  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


I owe my talent as a poet to the Lord, whatever I have, whatever I will have, all that I am, I owe to the Lord, for He gave it to me. Now since He has done all that, how could I possibly not worship Him in Love, in obedience, and in the Spirit of truth?

So, are we agreeing to disagree now?

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (04-30-2003 02:45 PM).]

Balladeer
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106 posted 04-30-2003 02:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rose, I feel sure that every Jew appreciates your letting them know they are lost and worthy receipients of sympathy. Probably all of the other religions that do not have Jesus as the Son of God would be equally appreciative of your wisdom.

If there is any one thing that irks me most about Christians is their absolute certainty that their way is the only way and everyone else is damned, as if there can be no doubt whatsoever to be in possession of this knowledge which is cannot possibly be known to man. To feel that way is fine. To preach it to others as you give them your sympathy is the height of arrogance.

I still go along with the bumper sticker that states "Dear God, protect me from your followers".
Local Rebel
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107 posted 04-30-2003 02:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Every time I see that fish on the back of a car I grab my wallet on the way by just to be safe Mike.


Rose;
I don't understand why Catholicism counts as religion (and starts in 50 BC   )  but isn't Christian because of Marian doctrine.  I thought non-Christian religions weren't religions?

Ok.. you pity the Jews.  But is Judaism a religion or not?

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (04-30-2003 03:00 PM).]

Ron
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108 posted 04-30-2003 03:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
If there is any one thing that irks me most about Christians is their absolute certainty that their way is the only way and everyone else is damned...

But everyone does that, Mike, including you. How many times in these forums have you condemned Saddam Hussein based on the absolute certainty that your morality is not only the right morality but the only possible morality? I have no doubt that what you believe to be right and wrong seem completely self-evident to you, beyond argument, beyond reproach. But how do you know you're right? How can you be so sure you're right that you would inflict your views on others and, in many cases, condemn them for disagreeing?

When it comes to issues of basic right and wrong, we ALL make judgements.
WhiteRose
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109 posted 04-30-2003 03:42 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Ron,

If there is any one thing that irks me most about Christians

That's definately the difference between you and I. You see, there is nothing about a person who is without salvation that irks me. I've no time to be irked with the souls of men, women, boys and girls that are in need of a Savior. That isn't going to help them one bit.

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (04-30-2003 03:47 PM).]

WhiteRose
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110 posted 04-30-2003 03:46 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Rebel,

Judaism a religion or not?

Yes, it is. So is Catholicism, so is Islam and all the others.

The difference is, I do not have religion. I have a relationship.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and they fashioned clothing out of fig leaves, that's man made religion. It's the covering of their sin. Man has been trying to cover his sin ever since then with his religion. There is no covering it, only cleansing oneself of it, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

So yes, there are a lot of religions in the world. I want no part of what is man made. I choose to have a relationship with the savior instead.
Balladeer
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111 posted 04-30-2003 03:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Ron, once again I'm afraid I'm having difficulty with your comparisons but I'll try to answer the best I can.

I have condemned Hussein for torture, murder, genocide and brutality. Yes, I will concede that, for anyone who considers murder, torture, genocide and brutality, moral actions then I am doing them a disservice. Am I convinced that these actions are worthy of condemnation? I'm afraid I do. Does that make me judgemental? Yep, I suppose so. Do I consider this to be comparable to Christians telling all other religions they are damned? Not in the foggiest. Perhaps I am being unfair...it happens.
WhiteRose
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112 posted 04-30-2003 03:49 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Deer,

I still go along with the bumper sticker that states "Dear God, protect me from your followers".

That is your choice. Everybody makes one, and only one, that determines their eternal destination.

I see you've made yours. So be it.
Balladeer
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113 posted 04-30-2003 03:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Adam and Eve used fig leaves???? Darn that Mysteria!!! She had me convinced they were maple leaves!!!
Jason Lyle
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since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


114 posted 04-30-2003 03:55 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

God, I feel out of my league to even post again, I thought I knew my history but some of you guys are amazing.But after reading several post that to me smack of bigotry......Catholics are not christians? Judaism is not a religon? Pity the non-christian, they will go to hell? I can only hope that God is not truly as shallow as we are.I know of christian sects that worship with snakes, and others that practice polegamy(sp?)I have friends that are practicing christian jews (is that a conflict?) Muslims revere Jesus Christ as a great prophet.All of these religons have deep pagan roots.And as to the bible? does the "inspired word of God" , mean the dictated word of God? God can inspire me, And his inspiration can lead me to write joyous words.One thousand years from now, if those words are added to the King James, does that make the "book of Jason Lyle", the word of God? Once again, these arguments seem shallow to me, they seem beneath Gods' intent.I go to a catholic church, was raised in the church of christ, have called myself an athiest at times.I truly believe if I go to a place called heaven, And meet a being called God.I will find many good people of many differant faiths.And I think we will find out that God never cared if we called him Yahweh, or prayed to (through) Mary, or welcomed the day with alms to Allah,or practiced Buhddism.God does not practice bigotry.
Jason Lyle
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115 posted 04-30-2003 04:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rose, you have certainly made your choice and I respect you for your passion and dedication to it. Yes, I have also made mine. Respect it if you wish but please don't offer your sympathy..

Jason.....very nicely said
Aenimal
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116 posted 04-30-2003 05:04 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

White Rose let me share with you an important lesson the catholic church learned early in this century. With the popluarity of philosophy the church found itself faced with its most serious threat, a populace of educated, intelligent and extremely curious people who began to question the church's authority and the scripture's themselves. The Catholic Church decided to fight fire with fire and formed a group out of it's most intelligent and promising clerics in order to combat logic with logic. The problem was that once the clerics themselves were let loose in the vaults to arm themselves with deeper knowledge in an effort to counterattack most all of them abrubtly left the church disillusioned with what they've learned.

I see you are very fond of the words and will not question them despite being written and rewritten by men. Well then maybe you'd appreciate this quote taken from the Pseudepigrapha, (scripture that was not canonized or in other words some men didn't like it so excluded it from the bible)
it is attributed to Jesus himself and found in the The Second Treatise of the Great Seth.

I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.

If we're to follow the word of Jesus despite who wrote them then we are then to believe that from the mouth of Jesus himself that the crucifiction was staged, a theory that has stirred controversy since the beginning of the church. It is also fueled by a passage in the Qur'an which states: "they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared so to them. ..." (Sura 4:157-8).

The point is for each point you've made to justify Christianity's supremacy by words and quotes that are law from the mouth of Jesus himself, there are an equal amount of references to tear it down. The problem with words and religion is that they are written by men and therefore written and rewritten to suit the needs of the church and if you don't believe the church is capable of this then read this: http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/library/secm.htm a famous letter which describes the elimination of a passage as well as a policy to deny of its existence from the gospel of Mark because it instigated opposing and therefore sacrilege. Before you declare religious supremacy of your word over those of other religions you should learn it's history and it's infamy.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-30-2003 05:20 PM).]

Aenimal
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117 posted 04-30-2003 05:07 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/

for anybody interested in the non canon books, also read Baignent's Dead Sea Scroll conspiracy as well as his book Holy Blood and The holy Grail for some alternative views.There's a host of others here but Dead Sea is a MUST!!
Crazy Eddie
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118 posted 04-30-2003 06:26 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Aenimal,

I read the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail and wasn’t convinced, which surprised even me – being an atheist you’d think I’d lap it up.

I believe the book was correct  in saying that Jesus existed because there is an independent and unbiased testimony that he was sentenced to be crucified (Tacitus The Annals) but after that the book, like many before it, wandered off too often into the realms of fairytale to be totally believable.

My opinion is that Jesus did exist and that he died and that everything beyond that is down to personal belief based on highly questionable evidence.
Ron
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119 posted 04-30-2003 06:27 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I have condemned Hussein for torture, murder, genocide and brutality. Yes, I will concede that, for anyone who considers murder, torture, genocide and brutality, moral actions then I am doing them a disservice. Am I convinced that these actions are worthy of condemnation? I'm afraid I do. Does that make me judgmental? Yep, I suppose so. Do I consider this to be comparable to Christians telling all other religions they are damned? Not in the foggiest. Perhaps I am being unfair...it happens.

They're exactly the same, Mike, in the sense that both you and WhiteRose are willing to stand up for what you believe. Even though neither of you can possibly "prove" you are right, and I strongly suspect neither of you can even exactly articulate what it is you believe. Yes, in 2003, there are differences, of which I am supremely glad. I would much rather have someone praying for me than gunning for me. But even those differences are only a few hundred years old.

quote:
Before you declare religious supremacy of your word over those of other religions you should learn it's history and it's infamy.

That has to work both ways, Raph. Ignorance leads only to impotence, and arguments against Christianity will remain toothless if they fail to address the role of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is NOT a static document, but a continuing revelation. The books that comprise the Bible were not selected by men, but by the hand of God. The history of Christianity is muddied by human weakness, but the underlying message of Christianity remains untouched, protected by omnipotence and redeclared every day by the living, teaching Holy Spirit. You don't have to believe that, of course. But it is impossible to effectively argue against it, and doubly impossible if your ammunition is material already rejected by the Holy Spirit.

What I personally believe is irrelevant, though I've stated many times in these forums, in many different ways, that only the most rash could think God has revealed His entire truth to us. Any plan the human mind can understand is far too simple to encompass the will of God. I suspect we are like the three blind men, each describing their own piece of the elephant, each right, each wrong, and each largely ignorant of what the others are experiencing. I feel certain Jason is right, that God is not a bigot, but I'm equally certain Man is. We divide when we should unite, argue when we should learn. We demand we are right, yet bristle when others do the same.

Anyone who truly believes they have "the answer" is a fool if they announce it and a hypocrite if they don't. The recalcitrant alcoholic doesn't want our sympathy. The delirious man dying of a high fever doesn't want our help. The abused child doesn't want to be taken from their mother, and the patriotic Iraqi doesn't want our interference. But if you know you have the answer that will save the alcoholic, cure the dying man, protect the child, and free the Iraqi, how can any decent human being willfully ignore their obligation to help? Ironically, I think those most apt to bristle at the uninvited prayers of a Christian are the ones the least likely to stand by and do nothing when they are called upon to make their own decision.


Crazy Eddie
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120 posted 04-30-2003 07:34 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Ron,

quote:
But if you know you have the answer

Believing you know the answer doesn’t mean you actually know the answer, and as you stated no one really knows when it comes to religion. With that in mind replacing know with believe in your statement would seem reasonable, then the antagonistic responses to personal beliefs foisted as irrefutable truths start to make more sense.
quote:
The books that comprise the Bible were not selected by men, but by the hand of God.

Personal belief doesn’t confer an inalienable right to be believed or an automatic affirmation of unimpeachable truth.

Well, that’s what I believe.
Balladeer
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121 posted 04-30-2003 07:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I strongly suspect neither of you can even exactly articulate what it is you believe.

I can state it with no problem. I believe that ruling by murder, genocide, torture, and brutality is wrong....period. If you want to call that nothing more than an opinion of mine, so be it. I would call it a constant for moral thought. If that question were asked to the entire world, I feel sure that less than one hundredth of one percent would say otherwise - even the ones doing it. Your comparison between this and Rose's claim that Christianity is the only path continues to be wasted on me, I'm afraid...and so it goes
Ron
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122 posted 04-30-2003 08:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I believe that ruling by murder, genocide, torture, and brutality is wrong....period.

No exceptions, Mike? Not for terrorists interred in Cuba? For soldiers fighting to protect WMD? You believe that killing Sadamm would be wrong ... period?

Murder, torture and brutality are subjective terms, usually defined by those with a beef against someone else's violence. But violence is still violence, and the person who is morally opposed to ALL violence is exceedingly rare. Somehow, Mike, I don't think you're one of those people. Every single government, including ours, rules in part by maintaining the option of killing those it deems a danger. No, we don't call it murder. I doubt Hussein did either.

I suspect I know exactly what you mean, Mike. I suspect I would even agree with you, at least in large part. But no one yet has ever "exactly" articulated what you are trying to say, because there always seems to be exceptions and special circumstances. It's a moving target, one we've been aiming at for a few thousand years. Isn't it interesting, though, how you can be so convinced you're right when it's so difficult to even say what you're right about?
Ron
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123 posted 04-30-2003 08:39 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
With that in mind replacing know with believe in your statement would seem reasonable, then the antagonistic responses to personal beliefs foisted as irrefutable truths start to make more sense.

It's easy to separate the "I think's" from the "I know's," but the "I believe's" aren't always so simple. Maybe that's because there really aren't any "I know's," but only the strength of our certainties on the "I believe's."

I swear, I have NEVER written a more confusing paragraph in my life.

Nonetheless, the difference between "knowing" and "being certain" is probably only important to linguists and poets looking for the perfect meter. In the real world, what I know is little more than what I believe with certainty.
Balladeer
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124 posted 04-30-2003 08:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Well, Ron, I don't know if our differences are semantics or simple misunderstanding but you have omitted some of my words and substituted others. Let me repeat..

I  believe that ruling by murder, genocide, torture, and brutality is wrong

Somehow you have disregarded "ruling" altogether and you have redefined murder, genocide, torture and brutality as generic "violence".  Include "ruling" and your examples of terrorists in Cuba, soldiers fighting for WMD and the killing of Saddam Hussein have no meaning. Also, I have never said I was against all forms of violence but I do say that I am against ruling by that format. I also take exception to the insinuation that we rule our country in somehow the same way Hussein ruled his simply because we would use violence to protect our country from what we consider dangers. Hussein was not protecting his country by killing dissidents - he was protecting his rule.

I don't find that difficult to elucidate at all...I do have a problem with not understanding why it is not understood.

My glibness must be rusty
 
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