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WhiteRose
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75 posted 04-30-2003 09:44 AM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

The biggest problem I have with Christianity is that it teaches that its Jesus is the one and only true messiah and if you don't believe in Him, you are to suffer in hellfire forever.

That's because the Bible says;

(Joh 14:6)  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Act 16:31)  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

(Rom 10:9)  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Joh 3:19)  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

(Joh 5:24)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


(Rom 8:1)  [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And the list goes on. It is clearly stated in God's word, the one True God's word, that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

It's not like Christians sat down one day and decided this is what they would believe.

God said it, so we believe it.

And we know that it is God's word because;

(2Ti 3:16)  All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Opeth
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76 posted 04-30-2003 10:51 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Did God say it or did man write that God said it?

Like I said before, there are many other religions predating Christianity that tell the story of a Jesus-like Messiah, and not only that there are many other religions which claim to be "the truth."

You are set in your beliefs, that is fine. However, I don't believe that I need saved from myself.  


[This message has been edited by Opeth (04-30-2003 11:24 AM).]

WhiteRose
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77 posted 04-30-2003 12:08 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Opeth, I'm not trying to convert anyone, nor am I trying to save anyone. It is the Holy Spirit's job to save, not mine. I simply put the Word of God out there, which the Bible tells me will not return void.

As for you not needing anyone, or anything to save you from yourself. It is sin, and the eternal separation from God that one is saved from. I suppose you could look at that narrowly and say that you are being saved from yourself. But it's really more broad than that.

But I will not get on my soap box here. If you ever wish to know more about salvation, my email is in my profile.
Opeth
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78 posted 04-30-2003 12:12 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Thanks for the offer, WhiteRose...but I have been there and done that. In fact, at one point in my life I was a "hardcore" Christian.

I know the Bible moreso than most Christians that I have been in contact with...even the Jehovah's Witnesses avoided my house at one point in my life.  

[This message has been edited by Opeth (04-30-2003 12:12 PM).]

Aenimal
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79 posted 04-30-2003 12:15 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Please Please Please read The Dead Sea Scrolls Conspiracy by Micheal Baignent..while your at it take a gander at the history of the catholic church and add to your list the New and Old testament Apocrypha's and the Pseudographia for books that were excluded or phased out of the modern day bible.
Opeth
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80 posted 04-30-2003 12:20 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Yes, excellent suggestion. The more one learns, the more one studies history, philosophy, ancient civilizations and their religions, the wiser one becomes.


Opeth
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81 posted 04-30-2003 12:25 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Opeth, I'm not trying to convert anyone, nor am I trying to save anyone."

WhiteRose, the problem with your above statement is this...

You say you are not trying to convert anyone, but by believing your way is the only way, you must believe that all non-christians are doomed for eternity.

So, you may not be trying to convert, but your beliefs condemn those non-believers of your religion.

Local Rebel
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82 posted 04-30-2003 12:41 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It's too bad there isn't any salvation from religious bigotry.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (04-30-2003 12:42 PM).]

Local Rebel
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83 posted 04-30-2003 12:55 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Am I to assume then Whiterose that you don't count Judaism (from which you would suppose to 'date' the planet) as religion either?

What some people believe:

-10,000: Taittiriya Brahmana 3.1.2 refers to Purvabhadrapada nakshatra's rising due east, a phenomenon occurring at this date (Dr. B.G. Siddharth of Birla Science Institute), indicating the earliest known dating of the sacred Veda.

-10,000: Vedic culture, the essence of humanity's eternal wisdom, Sanatana Dharma, lives in the Himalayas at end of Ice Age.

-9000: Old Europe, Anatolia and Minoan Crete display a Goddess-centered culture reflecting a matriarchial order.

-8500: Taittiriya Samhita 6.5.3 places Pleiades asterism at winter solstice, suggesting the antiquity of this Veda.

-7500: Excavations at Neveli Cori in Turkey reveal advanced civilization with meticulous architecture and planning. Dr. Sri B.G. Siddharth believes this was a Vedic culture.

-7000: Proto-Vedic period ends. Early Vedic period begins.

-7000: Time of Manu Vaivasvata, "father of mankind," of Sarasvati-Drishadvati area (also said to be a South Indian Maharaja who sailed to the Himalayas during a great flood).

-7000: Early evidence of horses in the Ganga region (Frawley).

-7000: Indus-Sarasvati area residents of Mehrgarh grow barley, raise sheep and goats. They store grain, entomb their dead and construct buildings of sun-baked mud bricks.

-6776: Start of Hindu lists of kings according to ancient Greek references that give Hindus 150 kings and a history of 6,400 years before 300bce; agrees with next entry.

-6500: Rig Veda verses (e.g., 1.117.22, 1.116.12, 1.84.13.5) say winter solstice begins in Aries (according to Dr. D. Frawley), indicating the antiquity of this section of the Vedas.

-6000: Early sites on the Sarasvati River, then India's largest, flowing west of Delhi into the Rann of Kutch; Rajasthan is a fertile region with much grassland, as described in the Rig Veda. The culture, based upon barley (yava), copper (ayas) and cattle, also reflects that of the Rig Veda.

-5500: Mehrgarh villagers are making baked pottery and thousands of small, clay of female figurines (interpreted to be earliest signs of Shakti worship), and are involved in long-distance trade in precious stones and sea shells.

-5500: Date of astrological observations associated with ancient events later mentioned in the Puranas (Alain Danielou).

-5000: World population, 5 million, doubles every 1,000 years.

-5000: Beginnings of Indus-Sarasvati civilizations of Harappa and Mohenjo-daro. Date derived by considering archeological sites, reached after excavating 45 feet. Brick fire altars exist in many houses, suggesting Vedic fire rites, yajna. Earliest signs of worship of Lord Siva. This mature culture will last 3,000 years, ending around -1700.

-5000: Rice is harvested in China, with grains found in baked bricks. But its cultivation originated in Eastern India.

-4300: Traditional dating for Lord Rama's time.

-4000: Excavations from this period at Sumerian sites of Kish and Susa reveal existence of Indian trade products.

-4000: India's population is 1 million.

-4000: Date of world's creation (Christian genealogies).

-3928: July 25th, the earliest eclipse mentioned in the Rig Veda (according to Indian researcher Dr. Shri P.C. Sengupta).

-3200: Hindu astronomers called nakshatra darshas record in Vedic texts their observations of full moon and new moon at the winter and summer solstices and spring and fall equinoxes with reference to 27 fixed stars (nakshatras) spaced nearly equally on the moon's ecliptic or apparent path across the sky. The precession of the equinoxes (caused by the wobbling of the Earth's axis of rotation) causes the nakshatras to appear to drift at a constant rate along a predictable course over a 25,000-year cycle. From these observations historians are able to calculate backwards and determine the date when the indicated position of moon, sun and nakshatra occurred.

-3102: Kali Era Hindu calendar starts. Kali Yuga begins.

-3100: Reference to vernal equinox in Rohini (middle of Taurus) from some Brahmanas, as noted by B.G. Tilak, Indian scholar and patriot. Traditional date of the Mahabharata war and lifetime of Lord Krishna.

-3100: Early Vedic period ends, late Vedic period begins.

-3100: India includes Afghanistan and parts of Central Asia.

-3100: Aryan people inhabit Iran, Iraq and Western Indus-Sarasvati Valley frontier. Frawley describes Aryans as "a culture of spiritual knowledge." He and others believe 1) the Land of Seven Rivers (Sapta Sindhu) mentioned in the Rig Veda refers to India only, 2) that the people of Indus-Sarasvati Valleys and those of Rig Veda are the same, and 3) there was no Aryan invasion. This view is now prevailing over the West's historical concept of the Aryans as a separate ethnic or linguistic group. Still others claim the Indus-Sarasvati people were Dravidians who moved out or were displaced by incoming Aryans.

-3000: Weaving in Europe, Near East and Indus-Sarasvati Valley is primarily coiled basketry, either spiraled or sewn.

-3000: Evidence of horses in South India.

-3000: People of Tehuacan, Mexico, are cultivating corn.

-3000: Saiva Agamas are recorded in the time of the earliest Tamil Sangam. (A traditional date.)

-2700: Seals of Indus-Sarasvati Valley indicate Siva worship, in depictions of Siva as Pashupati, Lord of Animals.

-2600: Indus-Sarasvati civilization reaches a height it sustains until 1700 bce. Spreading from Pakistan to Gujarat, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh, it is the largest of the world's three oldest civilizations with links to Mesopotamia (possibly Crete), Afghanisthan, Central Asia and Karnataka. Harappa and Mohenjo-daro have populations of 100,000.

-2600: Major portions of the Veda hymns are composed during the reign of Vishvamitra I (Dating by Dr. S.B. Roy).

-2600: Drying up of Drishadvati River of Vedic fame, along with possible shifting of the Yamuna to flow into the Ganga.

-2600: First Egyptian pyramid is under construction.

-2500: Main period of Indus-Sarasvati cities. Culture relies heavily on rice and cotton, as mentioned in Atharva Veda, which were first developed in India. Ninety percent of sites are along the Sarasvati, the region's agricultural bread basket. Mohenjo-daro is a large peripheral trading center. Rakhigari and Ganweriwala (not yet excavated in 1994) on the Sarasvati are as big as Mohenjo-daro. So is Dholarvira in Kutch. Indus-Sarasvati sites have been found as far south as Karnataka's Godavari River and north into Afghanistan on the Amu Darya River.

-2500: Reference to vernal equinox in Krittika (Pleiades or early Taurus) from Yajur and Atharva Veda hymns and Brahmanas. This corresponds to Harappan seals that show seven women (the Krittikas) tending a fire.

-2300: Sargon founds Mesopotamian kingdom of Akkad, trades with Indus-Sarasvati Valley cities.

-2300: Indo-Europeans in Russia's Ural steppelands develop efficient spoked-wheel chariot technology, using 1,000-year-old horse husbandry and freight-cart technology.

-2050: Vedic people are living in Persia and Afghanistan.

-2051: Divodasa reigns to -1961, has contact with Babylon's King Indatu (Babylonian chronology). Dating by S.B. Roy.

ca -2040: Prince Rama is born at Ayodhya, site of future Rama temple. (This and next two datings by S.B. Roy.)

-2033: Reign of Dasharatha, father of Lord Rama. King Ravana, villain of the Ramayana, reigns in Sri Lanka.

-2000: Indo-Europeans (Celts, Slavs, Lithuanians, Ukranians) follow cosmology, theology, astronomy, ritual, society and marriage that parallel early Vedic patterns.

-2000: Probable date of first written Saiva Agamas.

-2000: World population: 27 million. India: 5 million or 22%. India has roughly G of human race throughout history.

-1915: All Madurai Tamil Sangam is held at Thiruparankundram (according to traditional Tamil chronology).

-1900: Late Vedic period ends, post Vedic period begins.

-1900: Drying up of Sarasvati River, end of Indus-Sarasvati culture, end of the Vedic age. After this, the center of civilization in ancient India relocates from the Sarasvati to the Ganga, along with possible migration of Vedic peoples out of India to the Near East (perhaps giving rise to the Mittani and Kassites, who worship Vedic Gods). The redirection of the Sutlej into the Indus causes the Indus area to flood. Climate changes make the Sarasvati region too dry for habitation. (Thought lost, its river bed is finally photographed from satellite in the 1990s.)

-1500: Egyptians bury their royalty in the Valley of the Kings.

-1500: Polynesians migrate throughout Pacific islands.

-1500: Submergence of the stone port city of Dwarka near Gujarat, where early Brahmi script, India's ancient alphabet, is used. Recent excavation by Dr. S.R. Rao. Larger than Mohenjo-daro, many identify it with the Dwarka of Krishna. Possible date of Lord Krishna. Indicates second urbanization phase of India between Indus-Sarasvati sites like Harappa and later cities on the Ganga.

-1500: Indigenous iron technology in Dwarka and Kashmir.

-1500: Cinnamon is exported from Kerala to Middle East.

-1472: Reign of Dhritarashtra, father of the Kauravas. Reign of Yudhisthira, king of the Pandavas. Life of Sage Yajnavalkya. Date based on Mahabharata's citation of winter solstice at Dhanishtha, which occurs around this time.

-1450: End of Rig Veda Samhita narration.

-1450: Early Upanishads are composed during the next few hundred years, also Vedangas and Sutra literature.

-1424: Bharata battle is fought, as related in the Mahabharata. (Professor Subash Kak places the battle at -2449. Other authors give lower dates, up to 9th century bce)

-1424: Birth of Parikshit, grandson of Arjuna, and next king.

-1350: At Boghaz Koi in Turkey, stone inscription of the Mitanni treaty lists as divine witnesses the Vedic Deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra and the Nasatyas (Ashvins).

-1316: Mahabharata epic poem is composed by Sage Vyasa.

-1300: Panini composes Ashtadhyayi, systematizing Sanskrit grammar in 4,000 terse rules. (Date according to Roy.)

-1300: Changes are made in the Mahabharata and Ramayana through 200 bce. Puranas are edited up until 400 ce. Early smriti literature is composed over next 400 years.

-1255: King Shuchi of Magadha writes Jyotisha Vedanga, including astronomical observations which date this scripture-that summer solstice occurs in Ashlesha Nakshatra.

-1250: Moses leads 600,000 Jews out of Egypt.

-1200: Probable time of the legendary Greek Trojan War celebrated in Homer's epic poems, Iliad and Odyssey (ca -750).

-1124: Elamite Dynasty of Nebuchadnezzar (-1124-1103) moves capital to Babylon, world's largest city, covering 10,000 hectares, slightly larger than present-day San Francisco.

-1000: Late Vedic period ends. Post-Vedic period begins.


Why is your belief any better?
Local Rebel
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84 posted 04-30-2003 01:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok... I looked at your book page. http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0175.asp

So what?

There is nothing there about the Catholic Church.

You still don't say what you're saying.  
wranx
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85 posted 04-30-2003 01:24 PM       View Profile for wranx   Email wranx   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wranx

Well, Sue? I don't know if your question was answered to your satisfaction, but there is a positive wealth of opinon and information in this thread. (And one or two very good, er...discussions).

So? wanna start a thread on "how orange is orange?"

*exits, chuckling*

[This message has been edited by wranx (04-30-2003 01:25 PM).]

WhiteRose
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86 posted 04-30-2003 01:29 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Rebel,

you'd have to read the book. I think I said that in my post actually.

Opeth,

I don't condemn anyone. Gee, I don't have that much power actually. Neither does God send anyone to hell. It is the rejection of Jesus Christ that decides a persons fate.

Aenimal, If I wanted to know more about history, I would read a history book.  If I wanted to know more about Math, I would read a Math book.

If I wanted to know more about God, why would I not go to the source, the only Word of God available to me, The Bible?

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll stick with the Book I know was inspired by God.
Opeth
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87 posted 04-30-2003 01:36 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

It was not too long ago, just prior to Easter (which btw originates from the celebration of the God Estern - meaning fertility...now you know where the whole bunny and eggs thing comes from...which reminds me, no Christian has yet to answer me, successfully, why they celebrate Easter instead of Passover) when a christian worker of mine came up to me and told me about the ressurection of Christ and how a thief was able to save himself on the thief's dying day (maybe he was referring that it wasn't too late for me LOL!)...

And so, I asked him if the thief went to heaven on that very day...and he told me, yes, the thief went to heaven that day and quoted, "Verily, verily, I say to you, today you shalt be with me in Paradise."

So I says, I thought that Jesus said, "Like Jonah was in the belly of a whale for three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth."

He said, "so what?"

I said, well how did the thief beat Christ to heaven when Christ took a left turn at Hades?

That was prior to Easter. He still hasn't answered my question.


[This message has been edited by Opeth (04-30-2003 01:43 PM).]

WhiteRose
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88 posted 04-30-2003 01:41 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Rebel,

Why is your belief any better?

Not better, just true. Because it is taken from, and based upon, the Word of God. I do not worship the creation, but the creator. I do not pray to Mary, I go to the source, God, through Jesus. I do not pervert, change or take out of context any verse of scripture. Nor do I put my faith in writings that are not contained in the Word of God.

I believe every single word of the Bible is true. There are many, many, many false religions out there. That doesn't surprise me, my Lord tells me in His word that there will be. I would not follow something that is false, nor base my eternal destination on that which has nothing to do with God.

Am I any better than anyone else? No. Am I a part of a peculiar people"? Yes. A people saved by the grace of God, through belief and acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not better, saved. Not perfect, forgiven.

As for me being a bigot. I show no prejudice, only love for the souls of man that need to come to God through His Son.


Opeth
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89 posted 04-30-2003 01:41 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I don't condemn anyone. Gee, I don't have that much power actually. Neither does God send anyone to hell. It is the rejection of Jesus Christ that decides a persons fate.

~ If you believe that any person doesn't accept Christ as his or her personal saviour, that that person will suffer in hell for eternity, then through your beliefs, you do codemn those such persons.

Example ~ If I were to ask you what is the fate of all who don't accept Christ as their personal saviour. I am sure you would answer that God will punish them for eternity.

By that, you are condemning those people.

WhiteRose
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90 posted 04-30-2003 01:49 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

If you believe that any person doesn't accept Christ as his or her personal saviour, that that person will suffer in hell for eternity, then through your beliefs, you do codemn those such persons.

So let me see if I got this right. My belief condemns another. Well I have to say, that's a new one on me. That is merely your opinion. It's a bit backward, and really incomprehensible to me, but it's your opinion nonetheless, and I will take it as such.

But, that's kind of like saying that if you became ill, and  I diagnose the illness, and tell you that the illness will in fact kill you, (if you don't take the cure) then it is me, not the illness, that in the end kills you, because you didn't take the cure?

So it is my belief in what the illness can do that will kill you, not the disease itself? I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.



[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (04-30-2003 01:50 PM).]

Opeth
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91 posted 04-30-2003 01:56 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

You have misdiagnosed no illness for an illness, Dr. WhiteRose. I want a second opinion.

Let's agree to disagree.
WhiteRose
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92 posted 04-30-2003 01:57 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

So I says, I thought that Jesus said, "Like Jonah was in the belly of a whale for three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth."

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive forever more, Amen: and have the keys of hell and death.

This is one of the mountain-peak verses of Scripture, and one of the most amazing of the great claims of Christ. Multitudes of religious philosophers as well as scientists have searched for the key to life and death, but Christ claims to have the key. Further He claims to possess the keys to hell (Greek Hades). Hades is the New Testament equivalent of the Hebrew sheol, both terms describing the abode of departed human spirits.

The position of the scientific establishment, of course, is that neither Hades nor heaven has any real existence. The popular lay view, on the other hand, is that both do exist but in some kind of different state of existence, completely outside the framework of our present physical universe. The fact is, however, the Bible clearly teaches that both heaven and hell literally exist in the present cosmos, and this teaching has not been refuted in any way by modern science.

When the Lord Jesus died on the cross and His body was placed in the tomb, His spirit "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Ephesians 4:9) These lower parts of the earth are also called "the deep: (literally, "the abyss" from the Greek word abussos as in Romans 10:7) and are apparently the same as Hades. But in fulfillment of the prophecy of  Psalm 16:10. "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in (Hades) neither did his soul see corruption. (Act 2:31)

Until Christ descended into Hades, it had housed all the souls and spirits of people who had lived and died before that time. Those who died in faith were "comforted" in one compartment of Hades; all others were separated from these by "a great gulf" and were "in torments" (see Luke 16:23-26) Pre-calvary believers were in God's keeping, trusting His Word that someday the redemption price would be paid and they would be freed. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of the flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14,15)

Therefore, after He went and proclaimed His victory to the evil spirits incarcerated in prison (see I Peter 3:18-20), "When he ascended up on high, He led captivity captive....He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fulfill all things" (Ephesians 4:8-10)

All of this is implied in the great assertion by Christ that He now possessed the very keys to Hades and death. "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him" (Romans 6:9) "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth and make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25)

Ever since, those who die in Christ are translated to "be with Christ" (Philippians 1:23)in heaven. The unsaved dead remain in Hades, whence they will be brought forth for eternal judgement (Revelation 20:13) In the meantime, the great abyss in the heart of the earth continues to "enlarge itself" (Isaiah 5:14) with multitudes dying in their sins.

Jesus descended, then ascended, so in fact He was there when the thief went to heaven, He just didn't stay there, for we know He had more work to do on earth after His resurrection, before going to sit on the right hand of the Father.

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (04-30-2003 01:58 PM).]

WhiteRose
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93 posted 04-30-2003 02:02 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

Okay, I'll agree to disagree.

I hope that my post above at least answered your question about where Jesus went after He gave up the ghost.

And how it is that He could say to the thief that "today, thou shalt be with me in paradise", and mean it.

[This message has been edited by WhiteRose (04-30-2003 02:03 PM).]

Opeth
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94 posted 04-30-2003 02:02 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

P.S.

~ My beliefs, even when I was a Christian, do and did not condemn any person for not accepting Christ as their saviour.
WhiteRose
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95 posted 04-30-2003 02:04 PM       View Profile for WhiteRose   Email WhiteRose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for WhiteRose

P.S. That's good, because it is not your place to condemn anyone. Nor is it mine.
Opeth
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96 posted 04-30-2003 02:04 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

No, it didn't. As a matter of fact, it opened up a whole can of worms which I do not wish to go through (yet again).

Your interpretation, to me, is downright illogical.

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


97 posted 04-30-2003 02:07 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

P.S. That's good, because it is not your place to condemn anyone. Nor is it mine.

Alright, I will give this issue one more shot. You believe that all non-believers of your faith are doomed because you decree that God says so in a book written by men.

I say, that no one is to suffer for eternity for not being a christian...even when I did believe in christianity.

If you can't see the difference between the two, then with regards to this issue - you are biased beyond rational thought.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


98 posted 04-30-2003 02:12 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok then Rose...

you said:

quote:

Not better, just true. Because it is taken from, and based upon, the Word of God.



So the word of God is true because it is true?

Hmmm... why are all the other scriptural texts not true then?

Catholics aren't Christians and Non-Christian faiths aren't religions?  and -- you're not a religious bigot?

I still haven't gotten your ruling on Judaism...it's not a religion?  or is it?

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (04-30-2003 02:13 PM).]

Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


99 posted 04-30-2003 02:13 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Jesus descended, then ascended, so in fact He was there when the thief went to heaven, He just didn't stay there, for we know He had more work to do on earth after His resurrection, before going to sit on the right hand of the Father."

~ I couldn't resist. And even though there are many many holes to your interpretation of the scriptures, I will at least address this simple one.

Read your above quote and answer me this, if the thief was to be with Christ in Paradise (which may not be heaven, yet another debate, but I'll give you that paradise means heaven in this verse) on that very day, yet Christ did not go to heaven on that very day, because he was in hades for 3 days and 3 nights - explain how the thief got to heaven two days before Christ?  Especially since the scriptures state that Christ is the first and only to asscend to heaven?  And, Christ told the thief that both He and the thief would be in heaven that very day?

please, just stick to that one single simple issue and answer it if you can...


[This message has been edited by Opeth (04-30-2003 02:15 PM).]

 
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