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Passions in Poetry

"The World is Against us........"

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Brad
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25 posted 04-06-2003 01:22 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Michael,

Yes, yes, but have I changed my tune? In the other thread, I wanted to refocus the debate from American to worldwide protests. In this thread I wanted to give a reason for those protests.

But, you're right, it is misleading, so I'll rewrite it, "The world is against us because the world thinks we are against them."

Balladeer
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26 posted 04-06-2003 11:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

quote:

"I don't think most people are intentionally lying as much as they are seeing only what they want to see."

There is probably some of that, Ron, but not all. Night before last Chris Matthews on Hardball had that gal on who is the Palestinian spokesperson. He showed her the headlines their official newspaper just printed about the murderous Americans looting the towns and killing the children and he asked her, "Do you think this is the truth or a lie?" She was quite uncomfortable in answering "Of course it is a lie" and then went into a rant of double talk and the textbook things they do to change the subject. They know what they are doing....

Thanks for clearing that up, Brad. If the day comes the world doesn't think we are against them then perhaps they will go back to loving us the way they used to.  

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (04-06-2003 11:54 AM).]

Tim
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27 posted 04-06-2003 12:09 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I wonder why there is a need to change the topic of the thread.  A significant portion of the world is getting its coverage from Iraq through Al-Jazeera.  I agree with Ron that everyone sees the facts through their own eyes.  Al-Jazeera is not a friend of Saddam, but it would be hard pressed to glean that fact from their coverage of the war.  The point that Balladeer is making, which I believe with some validity, is that outright mispresentations and lies are being presented through allegedly responsible and respectable media outlets throughout the world for political purposes.  Whether it be by the American press or the press in France, Germany, or the Arab world, is not there a need for some degree of accountability.  Is America against the world, or is state sponsored media presenting that view to the world to further political goals unrelated to the Iraqi situation.  If we are going to divert to the topic of the U.S. versus the world, I will respectfully bid my adieu, we have been there/done that many times in these forums.
JP
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28 posted 04-06-2003 12:36 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

You have a point Ron,  Baseball is an evil event whose popularity is the sole responsibility of the clandestine media and in overt and covert brainwashing of the American public.

Why else would anyone enjoy such a mundane and mindnimbing activity falsely labeled as a sport?

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Ron
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29 posted 04-06-2003 12:46 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Whether it be by the American press or the press in France, Germany, or the Arab world, is not there a need for some degree of accountability.

And whom do you think should be appointed task master for the Fifth Estate? Sadly, Nixon, who probably most wanted the job, is no longer available.
Tim
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30 posted 04-06-2003 01:28 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Whoa Nellie, all of the sudden we have Nixon thrown in the mix... have to chuckle at that one.  I was thinking more perhaps in line of the people, but to each his or her own.
Tim
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31 posted 04-06-2003 01:35 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Still chuckling about the Nixon reference.  I know some don't like references to Clinton, but some have a strange idea that President Clinton had some desires to manipulate or control the media, but being a big fan of neither of the ex presidents, I would say that would appear to be a fairly universal view of most politicians. They aren't always real successful at it. I still prefer accountability to the people, although sometimes we don't exercise the best of judgement, from any point on the political spectrum.

[This message has been edited by Tim (04-06-2003 01:40 PM).]

Local Rebel
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32 posted 04-06-2003 01:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Sharon said:

quote:

- is there really any difference between a 19 year old American or British boy and a 19 year old Iraqi boy - all of whom are fighting for what they believe in? They all bleed red..and somewhere a mother cries over their body.



I think the similarity ends at the point of 'fighting for what they believe in' -- the majority of Iraqi military are conscripts and are told thier families will be tortured and killed unless they fight and fight well.

Ron
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33 posted 04-06-2003 04:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Tim, we're in complete agreement then, because accountability to the people is the only control I would find acceptable. You'll be happy to know it's already in place and happens every day. At the cash register. And no, it's certainly not perfect. Long live the National Enquirer!

LR, conscription isn't limited to Iraq and shouldn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the soldier. There were a lot of very fine draftees in 'Nam and their sacrifices are no less valued just because they were threatened with imprisonment and the diminished life and status of a felon.
Brad
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34 posted 04-06-2003 06:15 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Thanks for clearing that up, Brad. If the day comes the world doesn't think we are against them then perhaps they will go back to loving us the way they used to.


An odd thing to say. I can't talk about 'love' as we are what we are but there was an opportunity not too long ago, that opportunity was 911 and it was squandered.

-----------------
Watched a quick special on the BBC about Aljazeera. They quote Rumsfeldt about how precise our bombing is and then flash to the bombs, then to the civilian casualties.

Why do we have to make it so easy for them?

It is ironic that they take Donald at his word, far more than you or I do.

    
Local Rebel
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35 posted 04-06-2003 08:13 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I agree with you Ron.  I made no comparison about quality of soldiering.  In fact -- I heard one Americ... er.... Coalition Forces General commenting on the 'Elite' status of the Republican Guard -- his synopsis -- if you're talking about their ability to mount an attack they aren't elite (since they haven't been rebuilt effectively since Gulf War One.)  If you're talking about equipment they aren't elite.  If you're talking about bravery then they're not only elite they're definitive... or something to that effect.

I would tend to draw a distinction between having your wife and children kidnapped by the Fedayen and told to go fight or else and the threat of breaking Federal Law to avoid the draft.  There were... after all... many ways for our current crop of politicians to beat the draft...but your point is taken ... it's just a matter of degrees... and our current forces are definitely not conscripted
morefiah
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36 posted 04-07-2003 12:32 PM       View Profile for morefiah   Email morefiah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for morefiah

New kid on the block here again. I think Ron is absolutely correct. As a Jamaican, I can give you what I consider to be the average Jamaican's perspective of the the media in general, and US media in particular. I will use the example of the Olympics some years ago when our Deon Hemmings won the gold medal in the 400m hurdles. Kim Batten of the US was second. Imagine our shock when the US media (I think it was NBC at the time, but forgive me if I am wrong) ONLY ran pictures of Kim Batten. Jamaicans were mortified at such a blatant show of what we considered to be disrespect, given the Olympic ideals. We could not understand how the gold medal winner could be relegated to an also-ran in terms of media coverage (post-race interviews, pictures etc.) The painful lesson we had to learn then was and is that the media, regardless of country of origin, represents, and covers in large measure, the news and issues that the home audience wants to see/hear/read.

The American media has not covered itself in glory as far as reporting the war in Iraq is considered either. You may doubt this, but don't take my word for it... Ask some of your friends worldwide what is being said about the American press at this time. In fact, there are some who are suggesting that the American press has become an arm of the State. Cynicism yes, but such an opinion coming from so many must have some kernel of truth in its basis. As Ron said "Balanced reporting doesn't result from one news source writing unbiased copy". One has to be able to read/listen to everything and try to ascertain as much of the truth as one can from analysing all the news presented. The media of other countries are presenting the news of the war from the point of view which is closest to what they think thier target audience wants to see it. Is this good journalism? Maybe not, but it seems to be the common practice worldwide, including that of the American press.

I do agree to some extent however, that more people are seemingly anti-American than ever before. I beg to differ though, Balladeer, that this is because of mass brainwashing of some sort. I think that the events leading up to the war and the way in which the US and Britain seemed to thumb thier nose at the UN and the world in general, or at least the perception that the world has, that this is what was done, has led to a worldwide loss of goodwill by the US. The world opinion now seems to be that the US is a bully to be feared and viewed with suspicion. I consider myself to be a fairly objective person, and even I have had to remind myself that the policies adopted by any Government are not necessarily reflective of the views of the entire population. I know that there are millions of Americans who do not agree with this war, and it would be unfair of me (as it is unfair of anyone else who does not stop to think) to hate the US because of the war in Iraq.

On that note, I think Balladeer, that your stance about not supporting products from certain countries, is unfortunate to say the least. The truth is that your stance suggests that even if it is only a small minority of those countries' population who are anti-American, you think the whole country should suffer. When you get right down to it, objectivity can be hard sometimes can't it?
Denise
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37 posted 04-07-2003 08:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

...and there are millions of Americans (the overwhelming majority, in fact, according to the latest polls) who do believe that this war is necessary and therefore support it, morefiah, and even if there were not millions who are against it, it would still be unfair to hate the U.S. because of this war, in my opinion, but fair and unfair is neither here nor there.

Britain and the U.S. did not thumb their nose at the U.N. or the rest of the world. They gave the diplomatic route via the U.N. one more chance, and couldn't come to agreement as to the best route to take and therefore did what they believed needed to be done for the safety of the U.S., Britain, and the rest of the world. Sometimes, even with the best of intentions, diplomacy fails. But when you have leaders stating that they will veto anything put forth by the U.S. and Britain, before it's even put forth, well, what chance is there?

I believe that anti-Americanism is on the rise, not because of any particular foreign policy, but because of the increasing influence of socialist and fascist political groups who jump at any opportunity to slander us, who are expert at using the media to foster their agendas, and who are actually the organizers of most of the so-called "peace" rallies, here and abroad.

The latest rally here where I live was advertised this way:

"Rally, open to everyone. Come voice your opinion, whether you are protesting war or protesting peace."

Give me a break.

If we believe that Chirac has treated us underhandedly in his dealings with Colin Powell and the U.S. and Britain in the U.N., I think a boycott is in order. It has nothing to do with the French people, per se, or the percentage of the populace who may be anti-American. It has to do with the dishonorable actions of their leader.
Tim
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38 posted 04-08-2003 12:49 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Thank goodness that one dude is the there to let the world know we're not there.  
Brad
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39 posted 04-08-2003 01:59 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim,

Huh?

Denise,

Is it really so difficult to see that American foreign policy matters?  You know, I have a pretty good idea of why you think socialists and fascists are controlling things because I read the same article. I forget where it was, but it had very little to do with protests in Japan, Australia (an interesting shift there though), Turkey, Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia, etc.

Or if they are connected, damn, those guys are good.

Are there radicals involved in these demonstrations? Sure. Do they control the hearts and minds of all those other people? I know some of those guys and they just aren't that good (they have the glazed eye look if you know what I'm talking about). I find that hard to believe. But let's look at your point and Michael's together. In both cases, you point to people being manipulated, people being brainwashed.

But you also state that the majority of American people support the war. Why can't they be brainwashed in the other direction, why can't they be whipped into a frenzy of pro-war/anti-Iraq feeling.

Why not you? Why not I?

What is so special about them (or you or me) that they can't be manipulated by the media as well?

I support this war, I like the idea of getting rid of Hussein, but, really, was their an immediate threat here? I believe it is the right thing to do, but what happened except a gradual campaign that began a year ago to focus attention on Iraq. What has happened other than Bush and company talking about Iraq?

Those protesting war have an event to point to, the invasion/liberation of Iraq. They have repeated examples of a Bush administration renouncing international treaties (the ABM missile treaty), of ignoring international concerns (the Kyoto protocols), and questioning the integrity of international organizations (its resistance to the International Court of Justice). It's hard not to see America thumbing its nose at the UN as Bush said that the very relevance of that organization is put in question when it doesn't do what he wants uh, er, the right thing.

But what do we have to point to in the last year or so?
Moonlight Romeo
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40 posted 04-08-2003 11:31 AM       View Profile for Moonlight Romeo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Moonlight Romeo

quote:
They are blinded by their own presumptions, apparently incapable of even the simplest logic.

If it wasn't so irritating, I guess it would almost be sad.


These are probably the best words that I have seen in all of these threads for and against the war.

Thank you.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
--- Albert Camus

Brad
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41 posted 04-08-2003 11:51 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And they say nothing.

Balladeer
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42 posted 04-08-2003 11:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

quote:

"It's hard not to see America thumbing its nose at the UN as Bush said that the very relevance of that organization is put in question when it doesn't do what he wants uh, er, the right thing."

Just too much temptation not to end with a cheap shot, huh, Brad? That's ok. The United Nations has basically been a joke as an enforcement body and eveybody knows it. The fact that there are so many dictatorships who rule by force supports that, if for nothing else. They all get together in their thousand dollar suits, sit in their plush offices, toss out a humanitarian tidbit every once in a while and pat themselves on the back, telling each other how much they are helping the world. They get away with it because who would stand up against them or criticize them? They are the U.N.!! But along comes a skinny little Texan saying, "Hey, you guys aren't doing anything! Enforce the restrictions you vote on or you serve no purpose." He didn't say that to get them to pass what HE wanted passed. Well, yes he did, but what he wanted was the same thing they agreed to over a decade ago. I realize that it is cruel thing to do, to actually tell someone you expect them to do what they claim they will do but that's what he did. The Emporer is naked right now and it ain't a pretty sight. They may as well bring back the League of Nations so we can have a pair of them. I admire him for thumbing at them...you criticize it. Such is life.....
Brad
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43 posted 04-08-2003 12:23 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Just too much temptation not to end with a cheap shot, huh, Brad? That's ok.


I'll deal with this tonight and the rest tomorrow. What cheap shot? Bush thinks he's doing the right thing. But he defines the right thing by what he thinks. That's a cheap shot? Why? He thinks everybody else is wrong. Okay, give me facts, Michael, facts (Or have you forgotten what you argue). I don't think he's an evil guy.

Is he right?

Why?

Give me facts, Michael, facts. You can't play me like you do others.

If he is right, then why don't other people think that way? Why is everybody else wrong and he is right?

Why is everybody else insane?

Cheap shot? Give me a break, I said the obvious.

Wait until we find the WMD's and then gloat (and, believe me, I'll let you) but not until then.

Because I don't trust Hussein anymore than you do.

Ron
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44 posted 04-08-2003 12:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I realize that it is cruel thing to do, to actually tell someone you expect them to do what they claim they will do ...

"Read my lips: no new taxes!"

Sorry, Mike, it's not terribly relevant, I know, but the irony of your statement in the context of a politician -- ANY politician -- was just too hysterical to ignore.
Ron
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45 posted 04-08-2003 01:24 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

morefiah said:  
quote:
I do agree to some extent however, that more people are seemingly anti-American than ever before. I beg to differ though, Balladeer, that this is because of mass brainwashing of some sort. I think that the events leading up to the war and the way in which the US and Britain seemed to thumb thier nose at the UN and the world in general, or at least the perception that the world has, that this is what was done, has led to a worldwide loss of goodwill by the US. The world opinion now seems to be that the US is a bully to be feared and viewed with suspicion.

It's much easier and more comfortable to believe in brainwashing, lies, propaganda, socialists and fascists than it is to acknowledge mistakes. The flip-side to that, of course, is that it's much easier to make mistakes when you're doing something more proactive than waiting.

The Bush administration has made it clear, not just to Iraq but to the whole world, that the United States cannot be safely ignored. Let's hope the United States will learn the same lesson and realize that the world can't be safely ignored either. Right and wrong aren't determined by consensus, but neither can world opinion be easily blamed on brainwashing. It is wholly illogical and self-defeating to bury your head in the sand and insist that all criticism is bogus just because it's not what you want to hear.

American is making mistakes. I really don't see how there can be any question of that. Do those mistakes center on actions, as so many believe? Only time will tell. But if they don't center on actions, then our mistakes surely center on communication. And in today's world, that can prove just as damning.

Correcting mistakes is rarely easy. But if we refuse to even look for our mistakes, it becomes impossible.
Balladeer
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46 posted 04-08-2003 04:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I will rspond, Ron, but unfortunately this is a work nite....not ignoring you but life is  calling

Play you, Brad? Why would I ever want to do that.....?
Denise
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47 posted 04-08-2003 08:46 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Is it really so difficult to see that American foreign policy matters? You know, I have a pretty good idea of why you think socialists and fascists are controlling things because I read the same article. I forget where it was, but it had very little to do with protests in Japan, Australia (an interesting shift there though), Turkey, Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia, etc.


Not difficult at all, Brad, and while I concede that some of our foreign policies may not help us in the world arena, I just donít see foreign policy matters as the main thrust behind the current anti-American trend.  Iíve read several articles concerning various organizations behind many of the more publicized protests, and I believe that these organizations are utilizing the war to foster their anti-American agenda.  Iím sure that there are those who are protesting the war who have no other motive than that they are against the war. I can respect that type of protest.

quote:
But you also state that the majority of American people support the war. Why can't they be brainwashed in the other direction, why can't they be whipped into a frenzy of pro-war/anti-Iraq feeling.

Why not you? Why not I?

What is so special about them (or you or me) that they can't be manipulated by the media as well?


We are all capable of being influenced, and we are each responsible to study out the issues and come to our own conclusions.

quote:
I support this war, I like the idea of getting rid of Hussein, but, really, was their an immediate threat here? I believe it is the right thing to do, but what happened except a gradual campaign that began a year ago to focus attention on Iraq. What has happened other than Bush and company talking about Iraq?


Well, Brad, who knows?  I guess that depends on what one means by immediate threat. No doubt he posed/poses a threat, a threat made more real to many of us by the events of 911. We can no longer take comfort in the fact that we are surrounded by oceans and separated by continents from fanatics and tyrants.  Our complacency is gone forever. For our own survival we cannot afford to take a threat lightly, or hope that a continual policy of appeasement is in the best interests of any free society.  

quote:
Those protesting war have an event to point to, the invasion/liberation of Iraq. They have repeated examples of a Bush administration renouncing international treaties (the ABM missile treaty), of ignoring international concerns (the Kyoto protocols), and questioning the integrity of international organizations (its resistance to the International Court of Justice). It's hard not to see America thumbing its nose at the UN as Bush said that the very relevance of that organization is put in question when it doesn't do what he wants uh, er, the right thing.

But what do we have to point to in the last year or so?


Again, I would point to 911, in that it changed the way most Americans view their vulnerability to harm from terrorists, state sponsored and otherwise.

I believe that the UN made itself irrelevant when it consistently failed to follow through on the Saddam issue.

After seeing how the UN has handled other issues, Iím sure glad the President resisted our becoming subject to an International Court of Justice.  Imperfect as it may be, I would feel much safer under the U.S. system. I'll have to study out the other issues before giving my opinion on them.


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48 posted 04-08-2003 10:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I have to hand it to you. You come up with the most interesting comparisons I've ever seen. You've gone from comparing respect for Bush should be no different that respect for Hussein because they are both presidents to baseball articles being similar to murder and torture headlines to the draft being similar to the government threatening one's family with murder to the UN's unwillingness to enforce their mandates being similar to a sentence made in a presidential debate a decade ago. I'm not sure I can give you high marks in validity but for originality and entertainment value, you da man!

Balladeer
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49 posted 04-08-2003 11:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad wants facts...the man who has authored the following statements wants facts...

After 911, the people of the world were united in support for America. Today, they are against America

It's not that they, the people of the world, are against American values, they are no longer sure if we stand for those values

the only thing positive his supporters can really say is that at least he's better than Clinton.

Americans always substitute everybody for Americans

"Snow is white" is true if and only if snow is white

There are really good reasons to go to a university in America, but most people seem to agree that the public school system is broken down

nobody likes the fact that America can pretty much do anything at anytime to anyone and nobody can do anything about it.

Are these examples of the facts you are craving, Brad? It is factual for you to be able to accurately speak for what the whole world thinks, likes and dislikes?

From what I have seen, when facts are presented to you then you either ignore them if they are irrefutable or we get into a conversation about what are facts, what's the difference between facts and logic, do facts need to be logical, etc, etc, etc.

I can easily give the facts here. This thread was about many world newspapers printing obvious lies about the American and coalition troop commiting murder and atrocities against civilians and targeting children. As proof of these facts I reprinted the article from the Herald. They got their facts from the actual headlines of the foreign newspapers. After presenting the facts I discussed my feelings and opinions. That was it. I presented the facts that corresponded to the topic of conversation. Did you acknowledge those facts? They would certainly be hard to refute unless you were to claim that I invented the Herald article or that they invented the foreign headlines. If you decide to disregard the facts of the topic of conversation and branch off into avenues of comparisons, reverse-accusations, Bush's "inept" foreign policy, etc, then you have lost the right to demand facts....and I ain't playing.

One fact, at least to me, is that these conversations haven't had much positive value. I've read over the last several topics and it's obvious that no minds have been changed, no one's thoughts have been enriched or enlightened by another's thoughts and very little has been accomplished. I think I liked it better when I just read and enjoyed people's poetry and didn't know anything else about them. Think I'll mosey back to the poetry forums and leave this site for those with affinity for soapboxes, whoever they may be...and who I have unfortunately found myself becoming one of....it's all yours.

 
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