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Protesting the protestors....

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Balladeer
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0 posted 03-27-2003 09:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


It's a crazy world when the war supporters are well-behaved and the anti-war protestors are violent. SHouldn't it be the other way around??? It's not. Supporters acknowledge the protesters to march to their views and yet the protestors attack the supporters when they are presenting theirs. What happened to the "everyone has a right to give their views" philosophy? In Oregon the fire chief had all of the American flags taken off the firetrucks and uniforms of the firefighters because they were being attacked by anti-war protestors when they responded to put out fires the protestors started. Attack firefighters for wearing the American flag? These people call themselves Americans? They are not. Wayne Gretsky, undoubtedly the greatest hockey player in history and a Canadian treasure admired by millions, villified by his own countrymen for saying he supports Bush...this is allowing people to have their own views? No, it is the action of a group so defensive that they have to attack whoever does not share their views. Why are they defensive? I have my own theory......

     Bush and Blair claim that the main objective of the war is to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction.  I'll buy that. I doubt that more than a handful of people on the planet with any knowledge of world affairs don't believe that Iraq has them. Would they be used against democratic countries? Who can say? But I don't think that the reason we give for being there is important. Hundreds of thousands of people - normal, average, man-on-the-street people have been tortured, raped and murdered by the regime running the country. THAT should be enough reason....enough for freedom-loving people everywhere to get together and end that madness for the sake of the millions of people living in fear and being abused by a maniacal dictator. People who wouldn't stand by to watch a child being beaten to death in front of their eyes look at the atrocities committed there, mumble "It's not my problem" and walk away. No, they don't walk away...they scream profanities at the people trying to stop it! Blair stated today that, over the past year, 400,000 children under the age of four died in Iraq last year from starvation. Doesn't that make anyone angry at all? Iraqis will claim it's because of the UN economic sanctions but the sanctions did not prevent Hussein from spending tens of millions of dollars on palaces and who knows how much funneled into private offshore accounts. Iraq is a wealthy country....how could that fact be? We know how it can be. Every Iraqui who has left Iraq and appeared on tv has spoken about the army and the secret police and the secret police watching the secret police and the fedayeen watching them. They speak of the fear people live in and the executions and murders that occur daily and without reason or consequence. Doesn't that bother anyone at all? Everyone knows this....even the anti-war protestors. My question is this.....if the intervention supporters are for stopping the killing of the Iraqi people, what are the anti-war protestors for? If the supporters want to see the Iraqui people be able to live without fear, without being indiscriminately murdered - in other words - to have a chance to live the way every human being on this planet should be allowed to live, then what do the protestors want to see? If the supporters are for life, what are the protestors for?

    That is how we come to the defensiveness of the protestors. They cannot say they are not for life for the Iraqi people. They may not even be able to admit that to themselves. Instead they come up with different reasons....Bush is crazy - it's for oil - Americans are power-hungry - so on and so on and so on, whatever reason they can come up with to justify non-participation. They say these things knowing full well that Iraquis are victims of a monstrous regime but, in saying they are oposed to intervention they have to basically say they don't care. They have to say let the atrocities continue as long as we don't get involved which is exactly what would happen were we not involved. That is their Achilles heel. That is why their defensiveness explodes when opposed. It exposes them as being indifferent to the plight of the oppressed. It takes away their self-proclaimed righteousness. No, they are not indifferent, they proclaim loudly....they just don't want the people there who are trying to stop it.

    Strong cares for the weak. Strength speaks out for those who have no voice, be it a father taking care of his family or affluent countries caring for those being taken advantage of. In a perfect world, the United Nations would recognize murderous regimes and oust them from power but this is not a perfect world and the United Nations are united in name only. Fortunately there are other countries, successful in their own right, willing to come to the aid of those who have become victims of tyrants. I am proud to be a citizen of one of those countries. I am proud of a country like England willing to stand with us. Austrailia, who (with all due respect) has not been known as a military world superpower, sent troops when they didn't have to because they wanted to participate in the preservation of peace in the world and because they believe in man's right to live free. I have learned to have a tremendous amount of respect for Austrailia. Yes, it is much easier to sit in one's comfortable house, enjoying the advantages of democracy and close one's eyes to the suffering of those not able to enjoy those same rights...but to protest against those willing to take action? That's incredible. Whatever the anti-war protestors say, they cannot say they are not aware of the torture, murder and genocide the Iraqui tribes live under - and, in not being able to say that, they are saying they are opposing any action which would cause it to change. They are marching against killing at the same time they are condoning it. No wonder thay are so angry.

    In one of the most poignant scenes I will ever see, an American soldier was on tv last night, passing out food and water to Iraqui children. The reporter asked him what he was thinking and that hardened soldier, with tears streaming down his face, softly said, "Now I know why I am here."  What a shame so many others others cannot share that same feeling.....
Crazy Eddie
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1 posted 03-27-2003 09:48 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Itís certainly one point of view Balladeer but it does beg a couple of questions.

If saving the people of Iraq was so paramount why hasnít anyone done anything about it before or was everyone simply saying ďnot my problemĒ and if itís so important in Iraq why not all the other countries where similar things are happening?

People have been dying in Iraq, and other countries, for years and not all of them at the hands of the regime or from hunger, though I agree those causes have accounted for tragic numbers. If you get time search the internet for Ďdepleted uranium+Iraqí itís not pleasant reading but itís always interesting to see the situation from another angle.

Regardless of the to and fro arguments that can be made to support or contest your assertions at the end of the day how the Iraqi people react in the coming months is going to be the deciding factor and not the minority of guerrilla protesters. If the Iraqi people embrace the coalition forces en-masse and a peaceful Iraq results from the war then the decision to intercede will be vindicated, if the Iraqi people resist the intervention of the coalition forces the situation could become untenable and result in even more loss of innocent lives.

I canít speak for all protesters, I not even sure if I can claim to be a protester, I simply donít believe that the mechanics of how we got into the war were correct though I accept that war was probably the ultimate outcome. Perhaps some people arenít protesting against the war, maybe theyíre protesting that itís happened too early or too late either way I agree fighting on the streets to stop fighting on the streets does seem a tad ludicrous.
rosepetals25
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2 posted 03-27-2003 10:19 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

I agree with you 150% Balladeer.. You have just said exactly what I have been trying to say since this thing started.  You just did alot better

Tara

"in my field of paper flowers
and candy clouds of lullaby
i lie inside myself for hours
and watch my purple sky fly over me"
- Imaginary by Evanes

regards2you
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3 posted 03-27-2003 10:22 PM       View Profile for regards2you   Email regards2you   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for regards2you


This is perfectly said.  Though you made me cry, at least, finally,  someone has said how I feel and think, far better than I ever could, and included  some issues of which I was not even aware.  

And far as outcome...I think sometimes we simply must take risks when it is for the right reasons.

And to me, almost 1/2 a million children dying in a wealthy country is reason enough, EVEN if my only son and three grandsons (not old enough) all had to go to war right now. Even if I had to, I would!
And that is only one of the only reasons.

Thank you for this and your ability to reason out the situation and comments about it and about protestors, anti and pro war.... and, for  your courage for speaking out.

Sincerely, Pat  
    

  


..without surrender, be on good terms with all persons..
        "Desiderata"
  

[This message has been edited by regards2you (03-27-2003 10:25 PM).]

Balladeer
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4 posted 03-27-2003 10:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Eddie, you present some excellent thoughts there. Why wasn't it done before....now THERE is an excellent question indeed because it should have been. Sadly it had to be combined with another tragedy for it to reach such a level of importance. After the events of 9/11 we learned more about the middle East than we had ever known before....I'm referring to the average man on the street, of course. We learned facts of Afghanistan, the taliban (I don't think one person in 500 would have been able to define 'taliban' before 9/11), the topography, the history and make-up of the country....we learned more of Iraq - the facts behind Hussein gassing his own people, the Kurdish museum filled with evidences of the atrocities committed on them by the regime, and the history of his reign of power along with his sons. And I must say in all fairness now that, if it weren't for the search of WMD, we still would have done nothing, to our shame. That's why I said in my piece that the reason for us being there finally doesn't matter to me....the fact that we ARE there and that the Iraqui people will benefit is what I consider important.

    What about all of the other countries? Fair question. Obviously, we can't take them all on at the same time. I think this may be a beginning, though. Perhaps this will put enough lead in the UN's pencil that they may take a different view of cruel dictatorships and take some action. It at least is serving some notice to the world and it appears to me, by the comments from North Korea, they may be wondering if they are next since they fit the same criteria. The United States and the few allies willing to lend military support can't do it all....it's going to take a concentrated effort on the part of many countries. As I say, hopefully this is a beginning of the end of regimes that rule by torture,  murder and fear. Hey, I can hope...

You are also right to state the the proof of the pudding will be in how the Iraqui people react to the allied forces. Right now I think they are torn. First of all, they don't know if we will be successful. Iraqui television portrays the battles filled with Iraqui victories and speeches by Hussein assuring everyone the Americans are being, and will be, defeated. People are not going to stick their necks out condemning Hussein if they are not 100% sure he's out....otherwise they would be afraid of being killed after the war as traitors. Second, they do not know if the Americans and allies are coming as "occupiers". No country wants to be taken over, occupied and ruled by another country. So they wait. When Hussein is out of power and his special armies dispersed, when they have no fear of being shot, when they see that the Allied forces are there only to initiate a new Iraqui government and help rebuild the country and then they leave....then will they be free to display their true feelings and I have little doubt they will be feelings of jubilation and thanks.

"I agree fighting on the streets to stop fighting on the streets does seem a tad ludicrous."....you did good in your reply, Eddie, but this one is not worthy of you. It's not that simplistic and I know you know that. Thank you for a well-presented response, sir


...and I thank you, Tara. I know you feel the same way...
Balladeer
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5 posted 03-27-2003 10:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Pat, for such a warm and sincere reply. Yes, it is true that peace has a price and no one wants to be the generation that pays that price but sometimes that's the way the cards fall. I would also be over there if I could...I believe in the cause.
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6 posted 03-27-2003 10:41 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Now, I know why I should leave the writing to cooler heads. You hae said exactly what needed to be said, and haev done it oh, so eloquently.
Now, Eddie, in an attempt to answer a couple of your questions, "Why now?", and "Why Iraq?" (to paraphrase):
I made a statement in another section of this that Negotiation + Discussion = WWII. Taking a close look at history will show that negotiating with hitler, and "discussing" things with him led to his feeling invincible, and taking more territory. Eventually, when the situation got to be too dangerous, something had to be done. The same thing has happened here. The situation got to the point where something had to be done, and- unfortunately- it had to be done this way.
As for "Why Iraq, and not the others?"... Plain and simple, most of the others weren't important enough. Bosnia was starting to unsettle many of the nations involved with NATO, so we went in there... The Panamanian Government was supporting Drug cartels, so we went in there. Rowanda is in the middle of the desert, and has no real ties with us, or our allies, and holds nothing for us... we didn't go in there. Do I agree??? Absolutely not. Do I like the selection process??? Absolutely not. Do I accept it??? Unfortunatley, yes. As an American, I am taught to question my government, and to demand accountability from those in my government. As a Marine, I was taught that once the high-velocity lead starts finding its way into American bodies, the time for questioning is over. Right, or wrong, like it or not, I have got to give my support to my President, and to my Brothers and Sisters in the heat.
Everyone keeps saying that they don't want another VietNam, so they sit in the street, and march, and protest everything about the troops and the conflicts and the governments. They seem to have forgotten that it was the protestors that influenced governmental policy to the point where they refused to do ANYTHING... including winning, and that led to thousands of Americas brightest sacrificing beyond the point they should have been. If you don't agree, then G-d Bless you and your right to feel that way, just please do it in a PEACEFUL way, and support those doing the bleeding. (that last part wasn't for you, Eddie, but for the others who are protesting violence with hatred and violence).

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Balladeer
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7 posted 03-27-2003 10:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My thanks, Ringo. Very seldom am I accused of having a "cool" head

I like your assessment also...
Larry C
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8 posted 03-27-2003 11:38 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Yup, right here in Phoenix too! The protestors attack and the supporters are peaceful. Hmmm...

You said it well. Never will international affairs be solved with simplistic logic. ALL of us want peace. But peace at any cost isn't peace at all.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

hush
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9 posted 03-28-2003 03:53 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Balladeer-

'As I say, hopefully this is a beginning of the end of regimes that rule by torture,  murder and fear. '

But not shock and awe? Tongue-in-cheek, it's a cheap shot and I know it... but I personally am having some serious problems with the administration's word choices when it comes to foreign policy. However... that's a totally different topic- so back to the top:

Yeah, people who are protesting violence becoming violent is the most debilitating thing they could possibly do to themselves, and especially to their credibility. It's like having a "Kill in the name of Gandhi" club or something... essentially, they say "violent means don't work" but... wait a minute. Can't have your cake and eat it too... you can argue that it works, that it doesn't work... even that it's situational... but I don't think a peace rally can be rationalized as a proper place to exert violence...

'Hundreds of thousands of people - normal, average, man-on-the-street people have been tortured, raped and murdered by the regime running the country. THAT should be enough reason....'

I don't know about that... and it's not because I don't care about the suffering of others. I mean... it's not like the American government has ever mistreated its own people, right? We never, say, tried to exterminate Native Americans because they were inconvenient to our control of the continent...nor did we import huge numbers of people to be enslaved on our shores... nor did we ever racially profile people of a certain nationality into internment camps... nor do millions go without health insurance here.

I'm not trying to compare Bush to Saddam... at least not in the "Bush is the real terrorist" sense. However, America hardly has a spotless background when it comes to human/civil rights. No nation does. While we're better than a great many... I don't see what gives us the moral authority to go in based on human suffering... when all kinds of American corporations (*cough* Nike) employ sweatshop workers for pittance wages, thus contributing to worldwide poverty and engaging in active exploitation- when's the last time we boycotted tennis shoes? Why do we drive everywhere and do it in style when that causes us to be far too dependent on oil from the middle east?

'People who wouldn't stand by to watch a child being beaten to death in front of their eyes look at the atrocities committed there, mumble "It's not my problem" and walk away. No, they don't walk away...they scream profanities at the people trying to stop it!'

I very strongly disapprove of American hostility toward our own troops. While I personally have serious qualms with militaries in general, and the ways that they function, those soldiers are people, and it really makes me angry that some people are supposedly all for human rights, and kindness, and peace- yet they can't cage their own hatred long enough to have kindness for someone who probably isn't in some gleeful state about the prospect of killing... or being killed.

That said... I think you are twisting meanings here. You believe that this war is going to be fought to save children and citizens (and I agree that it will, but I think that's a biproduct more than anyting else), but your argument that people are protesting saving children because they don't care until they get a chance to be angry at their own government (that's how I'm interpreting what you said) really doesn't hold weight with me. While that might be an element (how many of them check the labels on things they buy to help combat oppressive globalization trends? How many of them help out at soup kitchens?) I think what most people are protesting is the actuality of a pre-emptive war, and also the method with which we are doing it. (On the former, my feelings are mixed; on the latter, I feel very strongly that we were much too headstrong).

'If the supporters are for life, what are the protestors for?'

You make it sound like the abortion debate.

I'm really much too tired to address the rest of this tonight... but I'll hopefully be back to check on this thread.
Balladeer
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10 posted 03-28-2003 09:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Yes, hush, it is like the abortion debate...you know, the one where protestors kill doctors to protest killing. I agree with you completely.

I expected reactions like yours and I don't not say that in a critical or sarcastic sense. After all, you can't call someone unfeeling to the slaughter of innocents without expecting rebuttal. Your method is predictable, too. The best defense is a good offense. Point the finger in another direction.

"We never, say, tried to exterminate Native Americans because they were inconvenient to our control of the continent...nor did we import huge numbers of people to be enslaved on our shores... nor did we ever racially profile people of a certain nationality into internment camps... nor do millions go without health insurance here. "

"America hardly has a spotless background when it comes to human/civil rights"

"I don't see what gives us the moral authority to go in based on human suffering... when all kinds of American corporations (*cough* Nike) employ sweatshop workers for pittance wages, thus contributing to worldwide poverty and engaging in active exploitation-"

"Clinton wasn't so bad because Thomas Jefferson slept with slaves.."

Oops! The last one is mine

As I said in my piece, one can come up with all kinds of reasonings to justify their thoughts and give excuses to hide the fact that they are against stopping wholesale murder.

I'm afraid you misunderstood the point of my post. I did not put it there to hail the American government as knight-in-shining-armor saviors of the world out to rid the earth of evil-doers. Certainly, over the course of history American governments have done sleazy things. Their treatment of the American Indian is inexcusable, for example. So what? That has nothing to do with what I am saying at all. While I am not debating whether or not the government should have gone there, I think many lives will be saved from our being there and the Iraqi people will come out of it with a better chance of living a decent life because of it. Do I expect everyone to agree with me? Of course not. I only ask that those who do not, state your own views but do not attack us for stating ours.

"You believe that this war is going to be fought to save children and citizens (and I agree that it will, but I think that's a biproduct more than anyting else)"

SO WHAT??? Does that diminish its importance, hush, that it's a bi-product? You make it sound like it loses important because it's not the stated main objective.

"I don't see what gives us the moral authority to go in based on human suffering."

I find that to be a sad statement. Being part of the human race grants us moral authority. One needs a moral authority to help the unfortunate unable to help themselves? One needs a license for decency? You don't need a "moral authority". You simply need enough decency and caring to want to stamp out genocide and murder of innocent people. What you are supposed to be as a human being should make you feel that way. By all means, sit back and say "Why us? Let someone else do it or just let it continue.." We can get away with that for a lifetime. Why us? Because we can...and because it is right.

So then the protestors will say in self-defense, not to be called unfeeling to the plight of the Iraqi, well we meant we don't believe there should have been war NOW. After over a decade of disregard to UN demands, after a decade of Hussein doing the Baghdad two-step and pulling politician strings like puppets, after 12 years of hundreds of thousands of children dying of hunger and atrocities, they still think we can negotiate with time. No, they don't. They simply want it delayed. Ayn Rand once made the statement to a reporter, "Delay is the past tense of denial." When he asked her what she meant she said, I'll tell you later - and walked away. That is the delay they want. Let it be someone else's problem.

No, I don't think we went there only to free the Iraqi people. It would have been music to my ears to have heard a President say, "We are going to Iraq to save hundreds of thousands of lives and free an entire nation from the torture, murder and atrocities committed on it's citizens by an insane dictator." That was not going to happen. Imagine the protesting then!!! I do believe, however, that this "byproduct" you refer to is more than enough reason to be proud to be there. That's my own point of view. For those who feel that it is not worth our getting involved to help a nation in that state, no problem. I don't expect everyone to be as adamant about human freedom as I may be. I just happened to have been in countries where fear was the predominant feature in young faces who would never have the opportunity to grow up as I did.

For the protestors who scream "Bush is worse than Hussein" and such other brainless slogans I have nothing to say. For the rest, protest to your heart's content but allow others to state their views also....why is that so hard for you to do?

It is said we are there to find the weapons Hussein has hidden but they didn't name it "Operation Find the Weapons". They named it "Iraqi Freedom" and that will be the accomplishment that counts, I believe.

So check labels, help out in soup kitchens and boycott tennis shoes, whatever it is that makes you feel you're doing your part....and support our soldiers who are risking their lives for the freedom of others...
suthern
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11 posted 03-28-2003 11:05 AM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

If Kit had a curtsy smiley, I'd be using it here, Bal. *S*

Lacking that...


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12 posted 03-28-2003 11:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I couldn't agree more, Michael.  

Below is a link to send our "Thanks" to the brave men and women putting their lives on the line for us and the rest of the free world. I hope everyone here takes a few seconds (literally) to sign it, no matter their personal philosophy regarding war.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html
Balladeer
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13 posted 03-28-2003 01:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks for the link, Denise, and the thumb, Suthern gal

I would really like to continue this but I'm leaving within the hour for the week-end and won't be able to respond to any further comments until I return....it's gonna be a no-computer weekend! I wouldn't want anyone to think I was ignoring their imput.

Have a great week-end, everyone
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14 posted 03-28-2003 01:44 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Have a great weekend, Michael. It is hard for me though to imagine you computerless for that length of time! I'm sure you'll muddle through somehow!
rosepetals25
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15 posted 03-28-2003 03:07 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

No computer for the whole weekend I hope the withdraw doesn't get to bad Just remember to breath and you should be ok!

Have a good weekend

Tara

"in my field of paper flowers
and candy clouds of lullaby
i lie inside myself for hours
and watch my purple sky fly over me"
- Imaginary by Evanes

KristieSue
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16 posted 03-28-2003 03:18 PM       View Profile for KristieSue   Email KristieSue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit KristieSue's Home Page   View IP for KristieSue

M'deer...I couldn't have spoken my feelings more eloquently.

Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS

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17 posted 03-28-2003 07:20 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Ah, I remember when freedom of speech was a valued American right. Actually, no I don't.

And besides, there's a better way to protest Bush -- vote him out of office by hitting the polls come 2004.

Let the bells of freedom ring.
Titia Geertman
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18 posted 03-28-2003 09:05 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman


AMEN Deer, I've nothing to add, you said it all clear and loud and I agree completely!

How long should we have waited for Saddam turning into a good guy, forever?
How long does one argue with an unwilling child. I know lots of people argue forever and still loose in the end.

Bravo and I hope you've had a nice weekend.

Titia

Like scattered leaves...my words will flow

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19 posted 03-29-2003 02:58 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Balladeer-

'I'm afraid you misunderstood the point of my post. I did not put it there to hail the American government as knight-in-shining-armor saviors of the world out to rid the earth of evil-doers.'

I know you didn't mean to imply that... however, I'm not so sure about our administration. There's a reason this is called 'Iraqi Freedom'... and I think it has a hell of a lot more to do with politics and tugging on people's emotions (actually, I'd call it yanking) to get them to support this war. To clarify- Supposedly, our premise for being there is to find WMD. So why isn't it called "Operation disarm Iraq?" Because it's much more effective to use loaded terms like "freedom." I mean, who's against freedom, right?

'Their treatment of the American Indian is inexcusable, for example. So what? That has nothing to do with what I am saying at all.'

I think it does. What would have happenned if another nation intervened in our treatment of the Native Americans? Would they have had the right? Should somebody have stopped us? Taken out our obviously cruel government and put their own form of government in its place?

'"You believe that this war is going to be fought to save children and citizens (and I agree that it will, but I think that's a biproduct more than anyting else)"

SO WHAT??? Does that diminish its importance, hush, that it's a bi-product? You make it sound like it loses important because it's not the stated main objective.'

I think it's being used to distract from the main issues at hand. Before the war started, basically all I heard was "short war" and "disarm Saddam"... but now it's all "humanitarian aid" this and "liberation" that. I think humanitarian aid and individual freedoms of all people are very important... which is why it angers me that those ideas have been worked into the rhetoric as  a distraction so that it's harder to protest what's going on. I feel like it's being used as a loophole... a "Well it's okay to do this because we're really liberating people..." response to any criticism- and that's unfair to anybody seeking the truth.

'You simply need enough decency and caring to want to stamp out genocide and murder of innocent people. What you are supposed to be as a human being should make you feel that way. By all means, sit back and say "Why us? Let someone else do it or just let it continue.." We can get away with that for a lifetime. Why us? Because we can...and because it is right.'

My moral authority qualm here is based on the issue I brought up eariler. What gives us (as America) the moral authority to intervene based on human rights when we allow, and even foster exploitation overseas by our own corporations? Just as the protestors can't have their cake and eat it too, an economically controlled democracy can't plead human rights when it serves their purpose (be it economic, strategic, or moral) and ignore them when it suits American business.

It's not so much a "why us" issue with me as a "why them" issue. Why Iraq? Why now? It certainly isn't all about human rights, or we'd be taking more measures across the board in areas of our influence (both within the country and without) to improve situations for people worldwide. It can't just be about WMD, because North Korea is suspected to have a more dangerous stockpile than Iraq. So naturally, I become suspicious that those two reasons for going in aren't the whole story- there are missing pieces of the pie.

'So then the protestors will say in self-defense, not to be called unfeeling to the plight of the Iraqi, well we meant we don't believe there should have been war NOW.'

I won't say that. It's not the now that I have a problem with- it's the how. It's the fact that we're riding in there touting democracy... and yet, we feel that we don't have to listen (and *gasp* maybe even concede to) the majority because we have moral conviction, personal interests, and, most of all, strength, on our side. What kind of democracy is that?

[This message has been edited by hush (03-29-2003 03:02 AM).]

Crazy Eddie
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since 09-14-2002
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20 posted 03-29-2003 01:15 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


There are a lot of useful points being made, so many that itís going to take me a while to touch base on all of them but I believe itís time well spent. Not in an attempt to try and convince anyone that Iím right or to prove theyíre wrong, Iíd be a fool to try either, but itís important that opinions on both sides are heard and that people at least attempt to keep a dialogue going. If that doesnít happen the polarisation of differing opinions amongst us could pose a greater threat to democracy than either Iraq or terrorism could ever hope to muster.

Ringo,

quote:
Taking a close look at history will show that negotiating with hitler, and "discussing" things with him led to his feeling invincible, and taking more territory. Eventually, when the situation got to be too dangerous, something had to be done. The same thing has happened here. The situation got to the point where something had to be done, and- unfortunately- it had to be done this way.


History can be read in many ways and although WWII isnít an ideal comparison with whatís happening in Iraq the events leading up to it certainly bear scrutiny. There is a generally held belief that the appeasement of Hitler was a resounding failure, that it served no useful purpose. With regard to averting the war this canít be denied but as a method of coalescing opposition against Hitler appeasement was an unparalleled success. You have to appreciate that WWII came at a time when the horror of WWI was still fresh in the memory of those involved. Can you imagine the numbers of protesters that would have resulted if War had been declared without the consensus that it was unavoidable that the failure of appeasement allowed?

This is where the parallel with Iraq and the events leading up to the current conflict are most vivid, America with the new found realisation that terrorism posed a serious threat to itís security decided to confront that threat. What America and the coalition failed to do was convince people that there was no other option, they allowed room for doubt and guaranteed the paradox of protesters who are inherently opposed to the Iraqi regime but equally opposed to military action at this time.

WWII would almost certainly have happened with or without appeasement, in my opinion the probability is that even with an extended attempt at diplomacy the Iraqi war was unavoidable too. What an extended attempt at diplomacy could have offered however is an almost universal acceptance that this was the only option.

With regard to Vietnam you seem to be inferring that the protesters tied the hands of the government of the day, that if left to get on with it the American military would have achieved a decisive victory, I donít think thatís true. America was bogged down in a guerrilla war fighting a people and not an army, the topography and necessary tactics dictated that America could never win a total victory, it just took time for people to realise that fact. The protesters didnít stop the war or stymie the government until it was ineffectual, in the end the protesters were just a mirror of that realisation.
Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


21 posted 03-29-2003 07:00 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

History can be reread, reinterpreted, and rewritten to rationalize any position.  I have to admit the logic of appeasement to Hitler was a good thing because it prevented war protesters is one I am going to have to chew on for awhile.  I wonder how many of the millions the Jews who were exterminated along with the millions of civilian and military casualities would have preferred to have war protestors over death and maiming?
Jason Lyle
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since 02-07-2003
Posts 1519
With my darkling


22 posted 03-29-2003 08:22 PM       View Profile for Jason Lyle   Email Jason Lyle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jason Lyle

Let me add a short but base point to the discussion, I will discard all philosophy.If you support or develop WMD, or terrorist.If you rule your country in tryancy, If your people starve to death while you build palaces.We will dismantle you, kill you, destroy you.If you seek allies in war, we will destroy them.If you seek justification, we will give it to you after the fact.And if you ever commit the crimes you did on 9/11, we will punish your country for generations.peace comes to you in a bigger bomb, test this truth.(not so short I guess)
Jason
Crazy Eddie
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since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


23 posted 03-29-2003 08:59 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Tim

The German Jews would undoubtedly have preferred earlier action even if that caused doubt and division among the people regarding the necessity to go to war. Iím sure theyíd have preferred intervention in 1933 when the first concentration camp was opened and if knowledge of its construction and use was general known Iíd like to think they may have got their wish. My point though was that appeasement by Chamberlain in 38 amalgamated the feeling that everything that could be done to avoid war had been done. So much so that war when it came in 39 was regretted but accepted en-masse as the only remaining option.

Without the general acceptance among the populace and the resolve and determination that it created regarding the war against Germany the outcome could have been a lot different.

Your point, and a very valid one, is that in the twelve months while Chamberlain was trying to avoid war people were suffering and a war in 38 could possibly have reduced that suffering. I believe that without appeasement and the consensus that it created it is doubtful that a war would have been declared before the invasion of France in 1940 if at all.
Crazy Eddie
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since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


24 posted 03-29-2003 09:07 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie

Jason,

quote:
If you support or develop WMD, or terrorist.If you rule your country in tryancy, If your people starve to death while you build palaces.


Is that some of the above or all of the above?

If itís some then Great Britain develops WMD along with a whole raft of other countries, are you suggesting bombing London? If itís all then it would have been easier to say ďif you are IraqĒ because itís the only country I can think of that all the above applies to.

[This message has been edited by Crazy Eddie (03-29-2003 09:08 PM).]

 
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