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Protesting the protestors....

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Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


100 posted 04-03-2003 06:41 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

JP said:

quote:
This whole thing has got me soooo confused, in some cities peace marchers are attacking war supporters and just yesterday, the news here in the Sacramento area is that a family has recieved threats because they put lights on thier roof in the shape of a peace sign.  I cannot understand how those who want peace could be threatened or those who want peace can threaten.... can't we all just get along?


Alwye said:

quote:
I second that, midnitesun. I have been a part of a very peaceful, respectful protest of this war since the possibility of it happening arose.  It is our civic duty and our right to protest in a lawful and peaceful way if we do not agree with something.  I definitely agree that violent protestors are contradicting themselves.  How can you be anti-war and then turn around and impose violence on someone?  I do not respect those people in the least.  Nor can I respect the over-zealous, rude, and misinformed 'pro-administration' people who scream and fight and threaten perfectly lawful protestors (which has happened to our group on occasion).  I believe that everyone has the right to either agree with what our administration is doing, to be undecided, or to be against it.  I also believe that people have a right to express their content or discontent.  As Americans, we have this right.  And I intend to keep using that right.  Much love and peace to all of you.


And Michael says? It would seem that you, Michael, should comment on these threads as well in order to make your point legitimate.

And my opinion? Well, Michael already knows what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway. Regardless of the outcome of this war, I accuse both the Bush administration and the protestors of the same thing:

Incompetence.
  
Balladeer
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101 posted 04-03-2003 06:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Brad, I did comment on Kacey's words in the entry right before yours, if you had checked...

...as far as following your suggestions to make my post "legitimate"....bot of those comments make reference to the fact that peaceful protest is good and violent protests are bad...the exact thing I said in my opening statement...their comments legitimize the thread themselves.

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (04-03-2003 07:16 PM).]

Midnitesun
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102 posted 04-03-2003 07:42 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"Whatever the anti-war protestors say, they cannot say they are not aware of the torture, murder and genocide the Iraqui tribes live under - and, in not being able to say that, they are saying they are opposing any action which would cause it to change. They are marching against killing at the same time they are condoning it. No wonder thay are so angry."
Michael, I have protested this war since BEFORE it began. That does not mean that I condone anything that regime has done. My anger is with those on both sides of this debate who assume everyone on either side has the same focus, attitude, mindset, and behaviors when it comes to supporting or protesting. To constantly lump everyone together in a huge pile negates the individual and the rights of each of us to make decisions for ourselves. My methodology of protesting/supporting is perhaps frustrating to many on all sides.
PS(I send money to Oxfam America to help feed the hungry, and to support indigenous populations support themselves whenever possible, irregardless of religion or politics.)
I guess my main point here is that as humans we seem to always be more prepared to spit and spat at each other in revenge than we are to use dialogue and international law to solve our problems. And to suggest protestors are unpatriotic denies the very heritage that brought us to this point in history. God forbid the King should have shut up all the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the US  Constitution!  
OK, so maybe I'm rambling a bit, but I steadfastly reject all assertions, from any source, that suggest I am less than American simply because I protest this action. You may have only meant to spit at the violent protesters, but the direction this thread has taken fuels the fire against all protest. And that direction I shall continue to protest 'till I'm vaporized.
Peace to you, I hope we all survive this brief moment in time.

[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (04-03-2003 07:44 PM).]

JP
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103 posted 04-03-2003 08:09 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Brad,  "incompetence"?

Compared to what? Certainly this administration is doing no worse job than the previous one... in fact, I will go out on a limb and state emphatically that the current administration has more experience, more competence, more credibility, less DNA stained blue dresses, a better understanding of foriegn policy, a stronger conviction for doing what they feel is right, a deeper conviction that their job is to serve Americans and not be served by them than the previous administration.  


Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

[This message has been edited by JP (04-03-2003 08:10 PM).]

Balladeer
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104 posted 04-03-2003 08:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hush says..

"We could alleviate a lot of human suffering without any need for military action simply by holding our companies accountable for their dealings overseas... I believe I said something about our government having its cake and eating it too?"

hush, I had asked you for examples and the comment above is still more rhetoric without them. First of all, are you saying that the government not policing the nation's companies overseas excludes them from performing any moral actions? Really? Second, since you had mentioned something in a previous reply about "sweat shops" do you know anything about sweat shops at all, other than a Kathy Lee Gifford clip, or is it just another phrase to use in place of an example? I do happen to know quite a bit about what you call sweat shops and I can tell you the people working there are not the ones complaining. Yes, those jobs may pay them 3 or 4 bucks an hour where the same job done in the US would pay 10-15, but in other countries they are very lucrative jobs, paying more than common laborers get from other jobs, whenever other jobs can be found. They do not feel used at all. I know in South America they happily line up for those jobs and don't refer to them as "sweat shops" at all. The only people you will hear complaining are the US union leaders who have allowed it to happen by being so outrageous in their salary requirements and working conditions demands. You are going to throw that on the government? Because of that the government has no credibility for standing up for human rights?

As far as your three distractions....

"The fact that we are invading a country pre-emptively."

There are those who would say that it is a continuation of the war on terrorism. There is little or no doubt that the wmd are there in the hands of a murderer who does not hesitate to use them. Bush says he will eliminate those weapons BEFORE they are used on us in this new world of mass-murder terrorism. To be honest I also feel that it goes back to Kuwait. Hussein agreed to the demands of weapons inspectors back in '91 and, when the Americans pulled out, did not honor them. With that, combined with the fact that daddy was the president Hussein snubbed his nose at, it wouldn't surprise me that there is a little personal irritation in this also, which still doesn't take away the validity of the action..it simply adds a personal angle. Should you choose not to accept the WMD reasoning then perhaps you can come up with your own. What would it be? Bush is insane? You have seen him on TV before and during this action. Does he appear to be insane to you? Or perhaps you feel that the US simply wants to conquer Iraq because we can, maybe to test all of these wonderful weapon toys we've never been able to use? No, of course you don't. You know as well as everyone else that America does not stand for that. Oil, then? How? Why? Simply because Bush has an oil background and Iraq has oil is enough to make one scream OIL?? Makes no sense. What would we do with it? Take it over and sell it for our own profit as booty of the invasion? No, you know America does not stand for that, either....so what scenarios are left? If you can come up with one that sounds as plausible as eliminating WMD before we lose another 5000 civilians I'd be glad to hear it.

"The fact that we are no longer focusing the search on WMD, but rather on Saddam"

hush, you can't enter a house without opening the door. The WMD are not going to be found with Hussein still in power. His removal is essential to having the freedom and capability to find them. Of course we are focusing on Saddam..that is the opening of the door. It is the natural progression of the action. Surely you can see that....

"What role does oil play in this? (No, I'm not going to make the it's all abou the oild argument, but I do think it plays a role.)"

I have no idea what role oil plays. It will realistically play some part since it is all that Iraq has and there is a lot of it..but whatever part it plays with be in the aftermath. It is not a reason for the initial action.

hush, it seems to me that you simply find it impossible to conceive that the administration can act with moral convictions and in the best interests of the security of the US and the world. It sounds like you find that possibility unacceptable and are willing to list whatever points you can find about the government to prove that moralistic action by the administration is not possible. I don't say that as a slur against you but I just wonder why you feel that way. Is it political? Had these actions been taken by the Democratic Party, would that make a difference to you? I really don't know how you feel but I find it sad that the feeling exists. Yes, we can go back through America's history and find many flaws and improper courses of action taken by then-current administrations but than has nothing more to do with now that chastizing you because an ancestor of yours may have shot an Indian or owned a slave. The current administration had nothing to do with slavery, Indian Wars, sweat shop initiations or any of our foibles of the past so why are you so eager to condemn them because of the actions of other administrations? I would really be curious to know. I have not seen anything by Bush to indicate that he is a man of low moral character and yet you appear to be judging him to be exactly that. You look for shadows behind trees. Is it personal, the political party he belongs to or just the fact that he is a President and, as such, cannot be trusted? I certainly don't know him that well but, from what I have seen, he is a man who chose good, qualified men to advise him, who has taken an action he considers to be in the best interest of the country, who has not been sidetracked by the tactics Hussein used on the UN for 12 years, who had the balls to tell the UN to act or get out of the way, who has stood by those convictions and actions even when major countries and hundreds of thousands of protestors tried to change his mind, who has basically staked his entire reputation and political career on his confidence that he has made the right decisions....this ain't bad for a guy that can't say a full sentence without making at least three grammatical errors!! Maybe what turns you off is that the confidence he has in his actions makes him come off as arrogant to you. Many people with unbending resolve come off that way. I'm willing to believe he may know what he's doing and is doing it for the right reasons. You are not willing....fair enough, that's your right. I'm just curious as to the base of such skepticism....

Balladeer
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105 posted 04-03-2003 09:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha...I see where you are coming from, Kacey, and it appears I owe Brad an apology as it seems my position DOES need to be legitimized.

First of all, I believe in everyone's right to protest. It's humanity's way. I do not believe in anyone's right to protest violently which physically attacks whoever has a difference of opinion.

Having said that, let me finish digging my grave since I am in this deep. I think it would be useful for protesters to understand the nature of their protest. I have no doubt of your love for humanity and human life in general. It is noble to give charitable donations and one's time to organizations dedicated to easing the suffering of others. Many of us do that. Do you believe that there could have been a better alternative? You very well may. I would argue that 12 years of negotiations produced nothing and my belief is that 12 more years still would have produced nothing but you don't have to agree with my thinking. You may feel that further negotiations would have indeed produced the desired results and I can't argue with your right to feel that way. I can say that, even if the question of WMD were resolved, tens of thousands of children would still die of starvation and thousands of adults would be murdered for as long as Hussein remained in power but you could choose to not consider that a factor if you wanted to...again your choice. I could point out that failure to act would condemn people to death. You could choose not to accept that. You would protest based on your convictions that war was not the answer under any circumstances. I cannot agree with that but you don't need to feel my agreement or lack of is important. You are a protester....and I don't think you are a violent protester. My point if you check my initial thoughts was that there are other protester out there who do not share your convictions. They protest because they do not want war - they don't know of any alternatives - they really don't believe that negotiations will work - they know and don't like to be told that people are dying every day while the world does nothing - they are aggravated - they are frustrated and they are defensive...feeling defensive they strike out at those who make them feel defensive, which happens to be anyone who disagrees with them. They do not have the courage of their convictions. Those are the people I speak out against and which I thought I had explained at the beginning of this thread. Obviously I didn't do a very good job of it.....my apologies.
Balladeer
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106 posted 04-03-2003 10:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This thread is really making me do some soul-searching, not to mention bringing back memories I would prefer not to see. Let me amend that previous reply of mine, Kacey, and feel free to damn me for it if you wish.

What I said above were my thoughts for the events leading up to the war. After our troops took the field, they changed. The war is going on. Our soldiers are out there, risking their lives and dying. All of the protests in the world are not going to stop what is now in motion. The protests are doing no good to anyone except perhaps the protesters themselves by letting them display their righteous indignantion. The protests are giving ammunition to the enemy and undermining the morale of our boys. Is it worth it to you? I'm speaking now as a soldier, a 19 year old kid who saw the VietNam protesters while I was just hoping to make it through another day. I'm speaking as a 22 year old kid who came home to see people looking the other way or finding a brand new fascination with their shoes whenever it came up that I was  Nam vet. Is it worth it to you? There are many ways to protest. Boycott things...write to Bush or your congressmen. These things won't make any more difference than protesting will but at least the kids out there putting their lives on the line for what they feel is a worthy cause won't have to see pictures and footage of thousands of people who are going home to a warm bed that night screaming against what they are involved in. Doesn't that matter to you at all? The son of one of my close friends is over there. You want to know what his mother said to me? "I hope they don't hate him when he comes home like they did the guys from Viet Nam."
    Stand up and protest if you must but know that you are doing it for yourself....not them. I hope you think its worth it.
Tim
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107 posted 04-03-2003 10:08 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Certainly everyone has a right to protest.  Pearl Jam has the right to portray the decapitated head of the President of the United States impaled on a spear and stomp on the same.  A professor at the one of the leading institutions of higher learning in the United States has the right to wish a million Mogadishus upon America and call for the defeat of the Americans at the hands of the Iraquis and equate American patriotism with white supremist facism.  All the while the intellectually superior student body applauds as the president of the University says one cannot interfere with free speech and faculty opinion.  Yep, they have the right.  As I said, exercising a patriotic right does not make you a patriot.
I grew up in a Mennonite community in the 60's and am a member of the Mennonite church.  I have a fair to middling understanding of anti-war views and pacifism.
A high school classmate of mine spent four years in federal prison rather than register for the draft when he had a zero chance serving in the military because of his religion, but it was a matter of principle to him.  The folks I know and respect for anti-war views and pacifism would die before they would end the life of anyone, even if that meant not saving the lives of their children or their own lives.  They do not attack the president or their country, they pray for all involved. Their views in regards to American as well as any life is not predicated on partisan political views.  By the way, those anti-war protesters I do respect.
Is Bush incompetent?  He certainly showed his incompetence in Afghanistan.  The Afghani's are without doubt far worse off today than they were under the Taliban. Saddam is a sadistic mass murderer who relies on torture of children and any, and it is totally undisputed, any means to enforce his absolute and total control.  But...  I have read that word so many times recently immediately after someone who opposes the war agrees to the total horror and evil Saddam has inflicted upon his people.  One person in another thread even said, but you have to admit at least Saddam is determined.
If we come out of the situation we are in with the same attitude certain of the ant-war folk had after Afghanistan, that Bush was incompetent and wrong in what he did, but praise the results that a people was not no longer subject to an inhumane life under a horrific regime, I suspect I will be able to live with the results and the criticism of those who oppose the president.  I really do not read anyone saying in the threads that people do not have a right to protest.  Protest away, but do not expect everyone to feel you are patriots and are acting in the best interests of the country.
Just as a final aside, Ron, the military is different than civilian authority as you are well aware.  In the military, you respect and obey because lives depend on that obedience.  In civilian life, you support or at least show respect for your institutions of government because they are the basis for your freedoms.  And I have to admit some disappointment in the analogy about respecting Saddam because he is a president. A dictator who is unquestionably on a par with Hitler, Stalin and Amin, does not deserve respect because the government he leads is not deserving of respect, but only revulsion by any civilized people.  


[This message has been edited by Tim (04-03-2003 11:52 PM).]

Brad
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108 posted 04-04-2003 12:01 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Compared to what? Certainly this administration is doing no worse job than the previous one... in fact, I will go out on a limb and state emphatically that the current administration has more experience, more competence, more credibility, less DNA stained blue dresses, a better understanding of foriegn policy, a stronger conviction for doing what they feel is right, a deeper conviction that their job is to serve Americans and not be served by them than the previous administration.


Why is it that everytime someone criticizes Bush, either Clinton or Gore are brought up with "at least he's better than that."

Why is that important?

After 911, the people of the world were united in support for America. Today, they are against America.

How did that happen?

I do not think the administration is wrong in fighting this war, I think it has been handled ineptly. It's ridiculous to assume a moral equivalence between Hussein and Bush but, at the same time, America is scarier than Iraq. I see nothing being done to alleviate that fear. Fear leads to anger leads to hate and, while, America can probably still do what it wants, I think Bush is making it harder to do those things.

To give a quick example, it doesn't help calling the forces a coalition when Rumsfeldt says that we don't really need Britain. We can call it a multi-lateral force but nobody really believes it, least of all the administration itself.

It's not that they, the people of the world, are against American values, they are no longer sure if we stand for those values (democracy, human rights, the rule of law, a voice in one's own destiny etc.).

Why is this? Next year, America will spend more money on the military than all other countries combined (all 193). If we're going to do anything like the things the administration indicates that it wants to do, we're going to need help from the very people who we want to help. We shouldn't ignore them.

And we are.

-----------------

On a side note, LR often describes the UN as a deliberatory body, not a governing body. He is right of course, but intriguingly the UN is seen as the vehicle for international action (a perception American had a part in making). It is seen as a kind of authority (amazing if you think about it. Amazing if you compare it to the League of Nations.). This is something we can use, and I think it is something we can believe in. Instead, we're blowing it.

We should be perceived as a leader among nations, not a leader over nations.

  

[This message has been edited by Brad (04-04-2003 12:10 AM).]

garysgirl
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109 posted 04-04-2003 12:12 AM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl

Michael, what you said about the comparison of the treament of the military now with the happenings in the VietNam war is exactly what I was trying to say when I mentioned it above. I went in and deleted it out, though, because apparently I wasn't getting across what I meant to some. (And I didn't want to sound like I was attacking anyone at all.) But, what you said happened then is exactly what I'm afraid is going to happen and is happening now. I wonder how the young woman who was a Prisoner Of War felt, when she was released and taken to the hospital, if she saw any of the violent scenes on t.v. about what's been going on in the country she's been fighting for, her own United States.
Ethel
Tim
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110 posted 04-04-2003 12:43 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Don't get out in the world much, but even during Afghanistan, it seemed a few folks were against America.  I vaguely recall the French not going out of their way to help us.  And somehow I suspect there are at least a few people around the world who support the toppling of the Iraqui regime.  A great many non-Americans will not approve of any action taken by the United States.  We have a few such folk here in the U.S.; even here in Passions, who would not agree with any action taken by the president.  Not attacking or being critical in that statement, just seems to be an obvious fact.
They have that right, and in no attempting to disparage Clinton, but the former president pretty well established that leadership based upon polls and following majority will does not always secure the support of all.  
Brad
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111 posted 04-04-2003 02:25 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tim,

Sure. But is that a defense of this administration's competence?  Do you have any idea of the scope of opposition in the world? Even the governments who support the US are setting themselves up to be voted out of office.

What has the administration done to assuage this except execute one diplomatic failure after another?

It does not bode well, I think, when the best defense is, "Well, at least he's better than (fill in the blank)."
Balladeer
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112 posted 04-04-2003 07:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tim, I agree with many of your views, especially your thoughts about giving respect to a well-documented butcher who decided to call himself president and hold mock elections where voters knew that a negative vote by them would be fatal.

Brad, I must say I'm a little surprised by some of the things you say. As a man who appears not to lose much sleep over what others think of him (which you had written in a response to a post of mine) it appears that world opinion keeps popping up in your comments as if that is a validation of the administration's incompetence. As far as the comment "..now the world hates us" I think that is a little unrealistic and I don't agree with anyone's ability to speak for the entire world. As with most things, the con makes the noise and gets the publicity while the pro remains quiet. I'm sure if Gore had been made president the world would love us because we would have done whatever the latest poll at any time would have dictated. Going against public opinion doesn't necessarily make you wrong, it only makes you look arrogant. As far as incompetence goes, here's an interesting little fact....

Terrorist pilot Mohammed Atta blew up a bus in
Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part
of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree
to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would
not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the
time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher,
"insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammed Atta was freed
and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the
World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks
at the time that the terrorists were first identified. It was censored in
the US from all later reports.

Why does Clinton's name pop up all of the time? Just thanks from a grateful nation for everything he did, I suppose...


Ethel, I'm happy I was able to speak up for you..

Tim, Afghanistan is CERTAINLY much worse off now than they were before. NOW they have women drivers!!!
Toerag
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113 posted 04-04-2003 07:59 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I protest!...Why is my cable bill so high when Iraq watches TV documentaries for free?....It's not right! (I understand they lose their transmissions almost as much as I do but it's free?)...They get free water...my bill is outrageous, they get free food and free medical?...On my tax dollars! Balladeer gets recognition for those little so called poems, free termite inspections etc., it's just not fair..it's tough being a Toerag yanno?
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114 posted 04-04-2003 03:32 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"The protests are giving ammunition to the enemy and undermining the morale of our boys. Is it worth it to you?"

Could it be that same line was used in merry old England many years ago? It's almost funny, since part of my ancestry comes from England. Some fought for, some fought against the King's rules. There was an ocean of difference between them of course.
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115 posted 04-04-2003 04:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Toerag, you should revolt! I can think of no one more revolting!!
Toerag
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116 posted 04-04-2003 04:50 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Ball a deer....and after I've been so kind to you in the past...you should be ashamed.....you disgust me...(usually behind my back though)
Midnitesun
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117 posted 04-04-2003 05:42 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Tim, Afghanistan is CERTAINLY much worse off now than they were before. NOW they have women drivers!!!
***as quoted, Balladeer's comment****
You are really in trouble now!


[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (04-04-2003 05:45 PM).]

Local Rebel
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118 posted 04-04-2003 06:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

On a side note, LR often describes the UN as a deliberatory body, not a governing body. He is right of course, but intriguingly the UN is seen as the vehicle for international action (a perception American had a part in making). It is seen as a kind of authority (amazing if you think about it. Amazing if you compare it to the League of Nations.). This is something we can use, and I think it is something we can believe in. Instead, we're blowing it.

We should be perceived as a leader among nations, not a leader over nations.




Gee... and all this time I thought you just didn't care      heh...

If we're going to lead there has to be something left of us though --- which is all that I'd add... and which is why I think we had to take the security council with a grain of salt just as we did all through the cold war years...

That's also why I agree with your analysis of why the admin is incompetent - but - you knew that already --

Words are very important -- especially on the international scene -- this admin thinks it's only playing to America -- which will be to all our detriment eventually --

There are more eggregious examples than the one you cited though...

My biggest concern are these words -- which are not exclusive to this admin...

"World's only remaining superpower."

We have to get off that pholks -- the world hates it.  Ever watch old western movies???

Toerag -- yassay ya want a revolution -- well ya know -- we're all doin what we can -- who better than a local rebel to start one -- I'm just as revoltin as you.

Local Rebel
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119 posted 04-04-2003 07:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Tim said;

quote:

.  A professor at the one of the leading institutions of higher learning in the United States has the right to wish a million Mogadishus upon America and call for the defeat of the Americans at the hands of the Iraquis and equate American patriotism with white supremist facism.  All the while the intellectually superior student body applauds as the president of the University says one cannot interfere with free speech and faculty opinion.  Yep, they have the right.  As I said, exercising a patriotic right does not make you a patriot.



He was from Columbia University wasn't he?

My personal opinion is that he doesn't have the right to go that far... in fact ... to say that he hopes we lose is seditious -- and as much as I'd hate to see the precedent set -- he should be charged and detained.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (04-04-2003 07:02 PM).]

Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes


120 posted 04-04-2003 07:46 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Toe, I would have to agree with you on the Cable argument, and would like to add one small complaint...
I feel the military needs to get whomever it was that designed the cable television systems to deal with Iraqui TV...
The military can't shut it down, yet my cable goes off when it rains more than an inch... what's with that??
lol

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Balladeer
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121 posted 04-04-2003 07:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not only that, Ringo, the government should use Blockbuster to find Hussein...just tell them he has an overdue video!!
Ringo
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122 posted 04-04-2003 08:14 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Damn!!!
Why aren't we generals???
>

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


123 posted 04-05-2003 12:27 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I'm sure if Gore had been made president the world would love us because we would have done whatever the latest poll at any time would have dictated. Going against public opinion doesn't necessarily make you wrong, it only makes you look arrogant. As far as incompetence goes, here's an interesting little fact....

Terrorist pilot Mohammed Atta blew up a bus in
Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part
of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree
to release so-called "political prisoners". However, the Israelis would
not release any with blood on their hands. The American President at the
time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher,
"insisted" that all prisoners be released. Thus Mohammed Atta was freed
and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the
World Trade Center.


Is this a defense of Bush's foreign policy?

And all this talk of Afghanistan? Doesn't anybody remember this administration's approach before 911?

C'mon guys, give me some relevant facts here.
Tim
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since 06-08-99
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124 posted 04-05-2003 01:19 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

avoiding facts, or avoiding issues? Afghanistan shouldn't be considered in relation to U.S. foreign policy during the Bush presidency?  If the man is incompetent or as some say a moron, then Afghanistan is a major component of his policy we can look at to support those allegations. The war in Iraq is an extension of that policy. The fat lady ain't done singing in relation to Iraq, and when she is, we can look at another significant world event shaped by George Bush and determine whether his foreign policy was incompetent or moronic. If you want to make a point about the foreign policy during the first few months of the Bush presidency, I would be interested to hear them, but I fail to see how you can brush aside Afghanistan and the war on terror since it is a cornerstone of American foreign policy.
 
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