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Passions in Poetry

Protesting the protestors....

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JP
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since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


75 posted 04-02-2003 12:03 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

This whole thing has got me soooo confused, in some cities peace marchers are attacking war supporters and just yesterday, the news here in the Sacramento area is that a family has recieved threats because they put lights on thier roof in the shape of a peace sign.  I cannot understand how those who want peace could be threatened or those who want peace can threaten.... can't we all just get along?

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

morefiah
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since 03-26-2003
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Spanish Town, Jamaica


76 posted 04-02-2003 12:46 PM       View Profile for morefiah   Email morefiah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for morefiah

Unfortunately, I only read all of this discourse today when I guess everyone would probably have moved on. I thought of not bothering to add my 2 cents worth but then again...

It is my view (however limited you may think it) that war with all the consequences that flow from it, should be avoided at all costs. There is no such thing as a "Good War". War brings only death, pain, and suffering to too many (including, too often, the victors). SOmeone once said, and I have always believed that, 'all wars, are ultimately settled, and peace restored, around a table'. Now I took the time to read all that was said, on both sides of the subject, about the American 'intevention' in Iraq. What was immediately obvious (and not surprising), is that the American people have become divided on this issue to the everlasting credit of one G.W. Bush. That, I believe is one fallout of the war which is most regrettable. But, to me , the most horrible thing about the whole matter, is the manner in which the whole world has been divided. Now I don't know, maybe there are those who think that this price is one which is acceptable. I cannot join in that belief. My opnion is that the manner in which the nation of France has been vilified is absolutely disgusting. Too many seem to forget that the most recognisable symbol of American democracy, freedom, and goodwill, the Statue of Liberty, was a gift from France. At one point I started to wonder if you were going to send it back.

There can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant. In fact I have taken to calling him "Madman Insane". But I am having a problem with seeing how killing thousands of innocent Iraquis in the name of 'Liberating' them, makes sense. I do not agree that the world did/does not care about all the people who have suffered and died at Saddams hands. I just think that given the dynamics of the situation, a war was not absolutely necessary at this time. The relative ease with which the US army has been able to lay seige to Iraq, suggests to me that the sanctions, Inspectors, and diplomatic methods which have been used over the last 12 years have been more effective than we were led to believe. As for the Iraqui people themselves, I hope everyone realise that there can be no way that these people could ever love what has been happening to them since March 19. Let's face it: It's one thing to lose thousands of your countrymen in a war where the people themselves are fighting for liberty or some other cause (The war between the States, and the war with Britain in America come to mind) but it is a totally different thing when an outsider who is already viewed with fear, resentment, and suspicion, causes your countrymen to die in the name of "Liberating You".

This is why I believe that history will judge The USA harshly when the issue of this war is considered. The fact is that the Iraqui people would have more easily accepted a war which had the full backing of the United Nations. In this matter, I think Bush, Rumsfeld, and company erred mightily. I also believe that America, will be regretting this blunder long after the aforementioned gentlemen are gone. It is said that "uneasily lies the head that wears the crown" America is the leader of the free world as we are so often reminded. But there is a thin line between love and hate and I think that this war might have caused a shift of troubling proportions.

Of course, you could (to your detriment) tell yourselves that you are strong enough, rich enough, powerful enough, and armed enough, to say "to hell with the rest of the world". That would be an even bigger mistake. When all is said and done, the world needs America, but America also needs the world. Imagine what this most wonderful country of yours would have been without the manifestation of those powerful words written on the Statue of Liberty. In the end, it can only be true that war is bad, and a war started and fought on an apparently shaky basis can only be worse. I am not a protester in the true sense of the word but I am totally against this war, given the way your country has gone about it. I have two cousins in the US army and they (Jamaican born, like Colin Powell, who we Jamaicans are so proud of) are in Iraq maybe giving thier lives for your country. I am proud of them, but my heart aches when I think of all these young men and women who will be fighting a war which was avoidable.

[This message has been edited by morefiah (04-02-2003 12:56 PM).]

littlewing
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since 03-02-2003
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New York


77 posted 04-02-2003 12:46 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Peace

[This message has been edited by littlewing (04-03-2003 02:47 AM).]

morefiah
Member
since 03-26-2003
Posts 156
Spanish Town, Jamaica


78 posted 04-02-2003 01:30 PM       View Profile for morefiah   Email morefiah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for morefiah

And by the way, It's obvious that most of you have been around this site for far longer than I have been. You (dare I say we?) have an absolutely fabulous thing here. I find myself loving people I will probably never meet. Please do not spoil it with insensitivity, and intolerance. It seems to have started creeping in a little and that troubles me. You guys, and girls are so great at what you do that I learn every time I read your work. Balladeer, I hope you realise now how so-called protesters for peace can find themselves fighting. Thing started to get a little hot around here for a while. And this from people who have argueably the deepest souls: Poets. Hmmmm....
garysgirl
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79 posted 04-02-2003 02:33 PM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl

I just wish that the peaceful Protestors could be peaceable. And, everyone else, too.



[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 06:00 PM).]

Toerag
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Ala bam a


80 posted 04-02-2003 02:59 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

littlewing....Is someone attacking you?...Well, you just tell them you know Toerag...I'll take care of it....in fact, just so you'll be prepared next time, I'll "attack" you in a way you'll love...(at least I'll love it anyhow)....and then you'll be prepared...okay?....I posted a sweet reply to you two or three or four replies ago?.....So, let me attack, um, er, I mean help ya with that problem..okay?
Aenimal
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since 11-18-2002
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the ass-end of space


81 posted 04-02-2003 04:11 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I think there's actually more good coming out of being divided than in being united.
Here's why, it shows a truly democratic nation, able to voice their own opinions and able to disagree with their government showing true Freedom of speech.

And Ethel you said:

The reason I think that is because so many people now are trying to support our men and women who are over there fighting the war on one hand.....on the other hand they are saying everything they can think of against our country and the people who they think are even remotely supporting the war. In the Vietnam war, the anti-war protestors didn't even  claim  to support our troops.

You seem to think it's hypocritical and two faced, you seem upset by it. Well would you agree that there are people who in their everyday lives curse the government when paying taxes,or outright cheating on them, yelling about high gas prices, cursing the redtape in trying to get a permit or something equally mundane. Isn't it equally appalling that someone like this, who constantly gripes about their government and the state of the nation most everyday, can just up and stop and become super-patriotic? It's equally disturbing and hypocritical. I liken it to a man who goes out during the week and whores, drinks, beats his wife etc but goes to church Sunday thinking he's a good little christian for it.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-02-2003 04:13 PM).]

Balladeer
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82 posted 04-02-2003 05:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I have to say I strongly disagree with the points you were trying to make with your last post but what the heck? If that's the way you choose to feel, so be it..

For some of you people who may be new here or not accustomed to our spirited conversations let me assure you there is nothing "sickening" here enough to get worked up over. Yes, we have different views. Yes, we discuss them, debate them, downright argue over them. Ron, is his wisdom, saw at the beginning of life for this site that it would grow with many different personalities and, because of that, there would be disagreements and some type of escape valve would come in handy...thus the creation of The Alley, a forum where we can come in, get things off our chest, mix it up a bit, let off steam or let out emotions and then go back to poetry and the feelings of friendship, respect and comraderie which actually never left. We don't get hurt feelings here and we don't take comments personally enough to be offended. We discuss...we argue...we battle...we let off steam.

We are in...

T H E  A L L E Y !!!
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


83 posted 04-02-2003 05:26 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Okay, gotta make this short & sweet because I have a class in a few minutes....

Balladeer, with American companies profiting from a lack of concern to human rights, I was referring to the globalization of American companies and the sweatshops, child labor, unsafe materials used... and the fact that they are allowed to do this because it is profitable. That may be an oversimplification, but I'm short on time... I have some links at home but it might be a little while befoer I get a chance to post them...

'Since there is always a large difference in percentage between the haves and have-nots, in a true democracy (one person, one vote) the have-nots would always be voting against the haves...and winning. It would be chaotic.'

I find this a terribly disturbing statement... it seems to me that the biggest reason for not having a true participatory democracy is that the haves feel threatened... why shiould they feel threatened if there is truly an equal opportunity for everyone to participate in economic growth? I have a lot more to say (and belief it or not, some of it in accordance with your position) but I am really now totally out of time.

And to answer your question, yes, I am in favor of participatory democracy, at least for local and state issues, and nationally designated issues of importance (like, y'know, electing our president?) but once again...

Sorry I couldn't be more thorough at this time.
littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


84 posted 04-02-2003 05:29 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

Peace

[This message has been edited by littlewing (04-03-2003 02:46 AM).]

Ringo
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Saluting with misty eyes


85 posted 04-02-2003 05:57 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

I have only one more thing to add to this discussion, and then I- thinking that it is being the same argument rehashed again and again- will let it go.
Everyone on this site stands firmly one one side or the other of this discussion, and it seems to be very rare that anyone (seemingly myself included) is willing to concede points to the other side. The one question I have for the loyal opposition is this:
Since this war is and a bad thing overall, what suggestions would you offer to have stopped it. Please keep in mind that diplomacy had been tried for 12 years or more. Sanctions against the government had benn tried for 12 years. Discussions have been happening for 12 years or more. ALL of them having failed miserably by two different administrations, and by the UN, and by numerous countries besides the US, what would you have done to change the situation?
Just curious, not attacking.

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Crazy Eddie
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since 09-14-2002
Posts 221


86 posted 04-02-2003 06:15 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Ringo,

I think the French proposal should have been tabled at the UN and put to a vote.
garysgirl
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87 posted 04-02-2003 06:19 PM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl


I want to explain that I didn't mean to come off like I was "attacking" anyone at all. If I started trying to attack people, I would be doing the same thing I'm so much against.

When I posted my first reply on this thread, I really didn't stop to think what this Alley Forum really is about. Like Michael said, it's a place for exactly what every one here has been doing...blowing off steam so that it won't be carried over to the other forums.

[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 05:58 PM).]

Ringo
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88 posted 04-02-2003 07:17 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

You should continue to post for the exact reason that you said you weren't going to. Just because a few hotheads in here (again, myself included) are going ape-poopy over a few anti-war posts on these threads is no reason for you to voluntarily give up your right to free speech. That is one of the things our young men and women are over there fighting for. To give the Iraqi citizens the right to say what, when and how they want. If you have something to say-even if it completely disagrees with my own opinions- I will fight to the end for your right to post it on here, as will too many others to name.

Oh, and just one more random thought... why is it always the young that are sent to fight?? Don't you agree that sending a batallion of peri-menapausal women, a batallion of bikers and a batallion of old men who have been nagged their entire lives would have had this whole thing done by now??? OK, maybe not... it was just a thought.

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Balladeer
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89 posted 04-02-2003 07:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hush says....

"it seems to me that the biggest reason for not having a true participatory democracy is that the haves feel threatened... why shiould they feel threatened if there is truly an equal opportunity for everyone to participate in economic growth? "

hush, you dear girl, NO ONE can be that naiive....especially not some who has done a thesis on Atlas Shrugged. That's like saying you know that, of course, everyone collecting welfare is actually spending their days looking for work.

Besides, if you want to go down that road, you better open another thread. That, and the sweat shops and other ambiguous items are very far removed from the topic of this thread. I'll look for it....
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


90 posted 04-02-2003 09:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Bush may be a moron.. but he's my moron..

oh... been there.. done that...

(tiptoes quietly off the thread)
Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


91 posted 04-03-2003 07:23 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

LR...watch who you're tippin' there fella!
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


92 posted 04-03-2003 08:54 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Balladeer-

like I said, that isn't all I had to say on the topic... but I don't think going participatory is the same as going communist. Would it eventualy end up that way? I don't know, that's something to think about. You're right, it's another thread though...

However, I do not think globalization is too far off-topic. You asked for an example of when America ignores human rights when it's in our benefit. There ya go. We could alleviate a lot of human suffering without any need for military action simply by holding our companies accountable for their dealings overseas... I believe I said something about our government having its cake and eating it too? I believe the intervention for the sake of human rights argument falls apart when you look at things like that.

The issues that I believe that line is being used to distract us from (or get us to accept) are:

The fact that we are invading a country pre-emptively.

The fact that we are no longer focusing the search on WMD, but rather on Saddam.

What role does oil play in this? (No, I'm not going to make the it's all abou the oild argument, but I do think it plays a role.)
KristieSue
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93 posted 04-03-2003 09:35 AM       View Profile for KristieSue   Email KristieSue   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit KristieSue's Home Page   View IP for KristieSue

Ringo...

you don't value your life very much, huh?

LOL hmmm nagging old men.  We could send my grandfather LOLOL
LOL


Failure isn't failure if a lesson from it is learned ~ KS

[This message has been edited by KristieSue (04-03-2003 09:46 AM).]

Ringo
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94 posted 04-03-2003 12:33 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

What do you mean, Kristie??? I am one of those old men who have been nagged... Send my ever-widening backside over there!!
lol

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Midnitesun
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95 posted 04-03-2003 02:56 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

If we aren't allowed to openly protest, then why in the hell are we sending all these young people to their deaths, supposedly in the name of guaranteeing FREEDOM?
What exactly do you think we protestors are doing, but exercising the very freedoms we are constantly fighting for? No, I will NEVER SHUT UP or back away from what I perceive to be my personal responsibility.
Yes, I said responsibility, for freedom of speech is not just a right. It's a moral and civic DUTY for the citizenry to tell the elected and non-elected leaders how they feel when they believe the government is taking a wrong pathway economically, socially, politically, morally on ANY issues that affect this country.
And, as a WORLD citizen, ie a human being living on Planet Earth, it's my moral obligation to speak out against injustices to humanity, ESPECIALLY when I am a citizen of a country that espouses FREEDOM and equality. To remain quiet is to give in to the very thing we supposedly hate...oppression and rule-by-force. Why should people of other countries even listen to our cries for freedom when/if we deny it to our own people?
The one issue I do agree with: it defeats the goal of consciously moving towards peaceful solutions when people start burning flags and fighting in the streets, ostensibly to put an end to fighting and war.
Peaceful wishes to all.
Namaste, and respect for all of Life.
Alwye
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96 posted 04-03-2003 04:43 PM       View Profile for Alwye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alwye

I second that, midnitesun. I have been a part of a very peaceful, respectful protest of this war since the possibility of it happening arose.  It is our civic duty and our right to protest in a lawful and peaceful way if we do not agree with something.  I definitely agree that violent protestors are contradicting themselves.  How can you be anti-war and then turn around and impose violence on someone?  I do not respect those people in the least.  Nor can I respect the over-zealous, rude, and misinformed 'pro-administration' people who scream and fight and threaten perfectly lawful protestors (which has happened to our group on occasion).  I believe that everyone has the right to either agree with what our administration is doing, to be undecided, or to be against it.  I also believe that people have a right to express their content or discontent.  As Americans, we have this right.  And I intend to keep using that right.  Much love and peace to all of you.  

*Krista Knutson*

"If we have no peace, it is because we've forgotten that we belong to each other." ~Mother Teresa

Sunshine
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97 posted 04-03-2003 05:19 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


While it is off topic, in this, I agree with midnitesun and Alwye.  Peaceful protests go much further in the long run.  Tenacity helps.  As pointed out, standing for something and then swinging a fist - gets us nowhere.

I am not even one who enjoys listening to people yell - so CrossFire is not for me.  Now, a good debate...and let people decide for themselves which side of the fence they want to stand on - there is NOTHING wrong with that.

But just because someone tells me the sky is green doesn't mean I have to buy it...but if three people tell me the same thing, I may make an optician's appointment...
garysgirl
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98 posted 04-03-2003 05:54 PM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl

(Well, here I go again, after I said I wasn't going to.)

I admit that I said a few things that I didn't intend to about the war in general. My intention to begin with was to say that I didn't think the protestors should conduct themselves in a violent way. I also agree with you, Kacy, Alwye, and Karilea that the pro-war people should not try to get their opinions across in a shouting match or violent way.

I also think that  everyone has the right to their opinions, on whatever subject comes up. But that the opposing opinions should be done without name-calling screaming matches and without violence.

By the way, I wish that the war had ended before it ever started and that a peacable solution could have been found. I hate war.

Balladeer
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99 posted 04-03-2003 06:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Midnightsun says:

"The one issue I do agree with: it defeats the goal of consciously moving towards peaceful solutions when people start burning flags and fighting in the streets, ostensibly to put an end to fighting and war"

Hey, Kacy!! That was the subject of this entire thread! Any outrage against not protesting has nothing to do with this thread at all. We ALL agree that protesting is a right for all...it is only the protesting with violence this thread was created for.

I'm glad you agree
 
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