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Passions in Poetry

Protesting the protestors....

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Local Rebel
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50 posted 03-31-2003 07:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Almost forgot -- if we're going to play the what if game with the Nam football -- we have to ask the converse as well....

What would the Pacific Rim look like if we hadn't gone in at all?  eh?
Brad
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51 posted 03-31-2003 08:19 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
No spitting contest with you today, Brad...sorry. I'm aware of your views. I have little doubt you can find human rights violations in anything the government does...I'll pass.


So much for believing in facts.

It must be nice to argue with strawmen.

Ringo
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52 posted 03-31-2003 08:30 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Michael,
Although I am about as Pro-Conflict/Troops/Administration as it is possible to get, I do have to mention one glaring moment in recent events where the United States government has "overlooked" human rights violations when it didn't serve them to see... In Rowanda. There was genocide being committed wholesale, and we as Americans did absolutely nothing. Rowanda haas nothing for us, and there were no allies, or national interests to give us any reasons to get involved. I am not slamming the American Government, as the entire world pretty much left them to their own devices.
I understand that this has nothing, really, to do with the current situation in the Middle East. I just wanted to point out one (besides China) instance tht you had asked for.

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Larry C
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53 posted 03-31-2003 08:43 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

It ain't easy being a super power...

I find it impossible to run a business for 80 people without significant criticism. Little wonder trying to make decisions on behalf of 100's of millions creates dispute. But if any one of us ran the country there'd be even more criticism.
Balladeer
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54 posted 03-31-2003 09:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ringo, I certainly agree with that. Hush's comment was our ignoring human rights violations whenever it suited American companies. I know of no American companies that benefitted our not going into Rowanda. I do remember when we tried to deliver food and aid to Africa and it led to wars and local gang bosses taking all of the foods and supplies for themselves. I also remember thousands of Africans starving to death daily while our trucks filled with food sat there with the government refusing to allow them to be given out because the government claimed they might be unsafe for human consumption. How much unsafer could they be for people dying of hunger?

With so many countries committing human rights violations it would be an impossibility to go after all of them. I had to smile at our feisty little Texan today. He went after China, RUssia, Cambodia, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Zimbabwe, Nepal, Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan and Cuba, among others with accusations complete with examples of severe human rights violations. I have to say that I am happy to see that. For more years than I can remember nations have considered America to be an excellent target for accusations of what they themselves were guilty of while holding out their hands for American dollars. They are finding out they're up against a fellow who ain't buying that any more. We are fighting an army that executes POW's, uses women and children as shields, hides their soldiers in civilian clothes, fires indiscriminately on their own towns, shoots their own citizens in the back if they try to surrender, uses suicide bombing, fires a rocket into a shopping mall in Kuwait.....and if a civilian gets killed inadvertently by American action, national protests from these countries with horrible human rights policies want America to stand up and apologize and act ashamed. It's refreshing to see dubya call them at their own game. I just wish he hadn't taken on so many at one time!!!!
Aenimal
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55 posted 04-01-2003 02:01 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I'm not going to get into the whole discussion but Balladeer wrote:

In one of the most poignant scenes I will ever see, an American soldier was on tv last night, passing out food and water to Iraqui children. The reporter asked him what he was thinking and that hardened soldier, with tears streaming down his face, softly said, "Now I know why I am here."  What a shame so many others others cannot share that same feeling.....

In war the first use of media is propaganda, haven't we learned this watching old newsreels or from Eisenstaedt's famous picture of the sailor kissing the nurse in times square on V-J day(He admitted it was not a candid but posed shot)?

I find it disturbing that people can't see through (or refuse to) fabrications. Whether it be the media coverage or the reasons for war itself.

What I find most disturbing watching it from next door, is the new Patriotism that has sprung up during the war. It's not patriotism that disturbs me but the label placed on anybody who disagrees with the government as unpatriotic

There is also a naive notion that while foreign governments and dictators will, the American government will not lie to its people. If history has taught anything, though it doesn't seem to have, is that ALL governments can and will tell people what they need to hear in order to get support for war.

In tapes released Lyndon B Johnson privately admitted the incident at the Gulf of Tonkin which led to the escalation of American involvment in Vietnam may not have occured at all.
"When we got through with all the firing,we concluded maybe they hadn't fired at all."

This revelation didn't stop him from pursuing the war nor did his, again private, admission that the US never had a solid "plan for victory, militarily or diplomatically."

Let me say that while I disagree with war I still believe that there should have been a little more Canadian involvment instead of the post war aide mission. But said the decision was made We've chosen to stick with the UN ruling and that is after all what the UN was made for and I don't think it should be undermined.
  
What I find offensive is some Americans attitude against Canada's position. Bashing us as an ally for not going in. Or flippantly attacking what kind of contribution we would have made anyway with our army which while, it quite frankly is in a sorry state, has some of the most well trained soldiers some of which are fighting alongside US troops as part of an excahnge program.

If I may add, we've been and still are in Afghanistan. Our world class snipers were a huge but unsung help, you may remember us helping in Korea and you maybe earning key victories in two World wars. The second of which btw didn't include American involvment for the first two years despite a ruthless dictator.
Also it might interest you to know that canadian technology is there, in armored vehicles and computer/radar technology.
Also the hovering technology on some fighter jets so hey take it easy on us, we're hockeyplayers and lovers not fighters.

But see I've lost my train of thought and it became about my own pride and patriotism and that is why I am already quite tired of this war and this narrowminded ugliness it spawns. Besides I said i wans't going to get involved in the discussion..lol

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-01-2003 02:09 PM).]

garysgirl
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56 posted 04-01-2003 03:36 PM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl

I said when I first opened up this thread that I wasn't going to say anything, and I honestly did not intend to. I'm not going to say anything about what I think our President should have or should not have done.

What I would like to say is that I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Maybe it's because I've been in enough disturbances in my past private life. I don't know. But, I do feel that if the people in our United States (not our allies or people from other countries), but our own country, don't try to come together more for each other and put some of their opinions aside for the time being, we are going to have real trouble over here. I'm not talking about the support of our troops, because I feel that anyone who is a citizen of the United States of America should support the men and women who are fighting for them, even if they don't.

What is happening here is only a small portion of how our country as a whole is reacting to this war. The emotions are running so high that if things don't change our own people are going to start killing each other over these issues of the war, the government, and our president. Has anyone ever thought about that some of our weaker enemies may be planning on something like this happening?

So many people are bringing other political differences they have into these issues. Just reading some of the poetry, the replies, and this thread makes me believe this even more. Has anyone just sat back and read and watched the posts that are being made? Some of them are just trying to cause an argument and discord.

I see that Ron tries to stay out of it until things get so heated that he has to step in. By the way, I have only read just a few comments on this thread, so I'm not talking to anyone in particular....just everybody in general who is wanting to argue and cause discord.

Well, I might have made some enemies myself by speaking what I think about the conduct of some of our own people. I really don't want that. My intention is just to maybe get somebody to step back and see how we as a country are acting about the whole situation. After all, we are a great country and UNITED  WE  STAND, right? And also, I am very proud to be an American.

Thank you for your time.
Ethel

[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 06:07 PM).]

Aenimal
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57 posted 04-01-2003 03:52 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Ethel I hope you know I agree that troops should be supported and I do and i thinkmost people do, the issue is not the troops or turning our backs on them, but the causes and lies in war which we shouldnt turn our backs on
garysgirl
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58 posted 04-01-2003 04:16 PM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl

But, Raph, even though most people are supporting the troops, the emotions are so high that more trouble is going to happen in America if our own people don't try to keep themselves under control.

As I said in my earlier reply, I haven't even read all of this thread, so I really don't know what has been said in all of the replies. I just know what is happening in my own community, and my own family. Some of the people who are anti-war feel so strongly in keeping peace that they are willing to fight  for it and for anti-violence. Now, does that make sense to you?

I heard of an incident just the other day where a man went to Wal-Mart and started  talking to a another man he didn't even know in the parking lot about the war. Before even finding out what the second man's views were about the war, our government, or our president, he started really putting them down and got violently angry. This is just one small incident of what's happening all over America.

By the way, I also think it's wrong for the people on the other side of these issues to turn to violence to try to prove their points.

[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 06:27 PM).]

Ringo
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59 posted 04-01-2003 05:34 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Aenimal, I will gove you the viewpoint that there are many who feel anti-governmental feelings are un-patriotic, however, I will also give you the opposite viewpoint that there are more of us (Americans) who feel just the opposite. By crook, or by design, most of my friends, and business associates, and most of the people I deal with on a daily basis are either active duty military, or have formerly served our nation in her armed services. With one or two exceptions, everyone I have talked to has said that they have absolutely nothing against anyone who opposes the war... PEACEFULLY. The American Constitution gives every citizen the right to peaceful assembly. More people that I can count have done their duty to help support that right. Even though I am a Conservative by thoughts, and a Republican by registration, there are many things that I disagree with concerning our President. In another post (or maybe this one) I made the statement that President Clinton was a better Domestic leader. Most of the people that I associate myself with feel that it is every citizens right, and more importantly, responsibility to question EVERYTHING their government does and to make their own decisions about what they believe. However, once America's young men and women started bleeding, it was time (in our opinions) to stop all of the bickering and stand behind the troops, and the President. We may not agree with what he is doing, or the reasons thereof, however, the bickering is counter productive, and the violence and hatred done in the name of peace is doing nothing but hindering the war effort.
Anyways, I got off the subject.
As allies, Cnanda should have backed up the Coalition, however, we do not control the Canadian government any more than we can control any other government around the world. The Canadian PM decided it was best for the citizens of his nation to stay out of this fight, and I-along with many others-respect your decisions, and your right to make them. We just ask that you make your opinions known peacefully, and that you respect our government's right to do as it feels best for it's citizens.

Imagine all the People living life in peace...
John Lennon

Aenimal
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60 posted 04-01-2003 06:01 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Again as I've said I agree you should get behind you troops for they are putting their lives in danger. But that doesn't mean you should stop protesting this silly action.
And Ringo while the Canadian government didn't see fit to assisting in this *ahem* war, you should know that there are soldiers STILL holding fort in Afghanistan and once you pull those troops out and into Iraq who do you think will be left?
We made our decision based on and respecting the UN.
We also made our decision based upon our resources knowing that the Taliban and Afghanistan would be left to us as well as the cleanup and aide of Iraq.
We are not hirrible allies, we've been there in Somalia, Yugoslavia and the wars I mentioned before.
And listen, I think patriotism can be a beautiful thing but all things can be distorted. As for the peace protesters acting violently do you honestly think they speak for all peace protesters? I condemn their acts equally. I'm just giving counterpoints to remind people there is more to this than what the government and media would have you believe. And sometimes it takes an outside view to reveal things you may not see either? Believe in your country, have pride in yur country but don't think that government is infallible or incapable of lies.

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (04-01-2003 07:07 PM).]

Balladeer
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61 posted 04-01-2003 07:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aenimal, I must take exception with you possible insinuation that the footage of the soldier was staged. It was at the tail end of a 10 minute piece showing the Iraqi children cautiously coming up to the Americans to receive the food and water handed out to them and then smiling broadly when it was in their hands. The soldier just looked at the children and told the reporter that he had cousins and children of friends that age and, the longer he talked, one could see that he was fighting back his tears until they got to be too much. If that was acting that soldier has one hell of a future in Hollywood. Had it been set up as a propoganda item, it was the perfect clip to be shown over and over like the pic of the sailor and girl kissing. Guess what? It's never been shown since...at least from anywhere I've seen. If you had seen it I don't think you would have considered it staged. Since you obviously didn't see it, it's disheartening to see your veiled almost-accusation that it could have been faked. That's quite a bit of skepticism you have there...and one could see it as fairly insulting.

As far as opinions against the Canadian gov't's decision not to send troops, I have seen nothing like that in this entire thread until your entry. The Canadian government will do what it thinks is best for Canada and it will live with its decision.....as it should be.
CocoBaci
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62 posted 04-01-2003 10:01 PM       View Profile for CocoBaci   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for CocoBaci

"there is more to this than what the government and media would have you believe"

I totally whole-heartedly concur...
*~coco~*
Aenimal
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63 posted 04-01-2003 10:17 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Balladeer you know better than to think I'd come here and insult anybody on this board. While the piece may not have been staged it was broadcast for the precise impact that it had on you. That is still propaganda, let's say there was footage of a soldier doing something awful or disrespectful to the Iraqi people, what are the odds that that would be shown.
Your comment to the piece was ""Now I know why I am here."  What a shame so many others others cannot share that same feeling....." as if this one piece of footage summed up the real reason for the war which would be naive.
As for my comments about Canadians I at NO point claimed that comments came from this board or that it was the general view of Americans, I merely stated my perspective on things I've found disturbing both on the news and in some public opinion. We get American television stations and watch American news. I've seen and heard comments by senators and critics about canadians, I've received or have had friends recieve jokes and comments from american counterparts.
Also I was responding to Ringo by saying that while we did not join you in this questionable war as an ally, we were the first with you in Afghanistan and are still stationed there and we expect that once the US takes its reinforcements out of the region we will send more troops to maintain the situation there as well as the aide in Iraq.
I haven't said anything insulting or offensive and If I did it was unintentional and hope this response cleans up any loose ends. I have studied media and photgraphy and know the power they hold.
Tim
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64 posted 04-01-2003 11:00 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

me wonders if it is always patriotic to protest, or only patriotic to protest when the protester is protesting something we personally feel ought to be protested against.  It is not automatically right to protest, it is a right.  There is a bit of a difference.  One is not patriotic because they protest. The Klu Klux Klan protests along with the Posse Comitatus folk, but somehow I suspect they aren't viewed as patriots by a significant number of people.  Their right to protest is equal to anyone elses right to protest, because they have a right to do so as Americans.  That does not mean they are not bigots, racists and despicable individuals.  For some reason unbeknownst to me, if you call the President of the United States of America a moron; you burn an American flag, or undermine your country by your actions, then one feels they should not be criticized or called on any statement made because protesting is American and patriotic.  Nope, it is not patriotism, it is an American right that a great many people have given their lives for.  Any number of issues can be protested against and the protester be a complete idiot and unpatriotic, but that is anyone's right, and that is what makes America the country it is. The idea that somehow protesters are to be given free reign and not accountable for their actions is what I don't always comprehend.  Personally, I think anyone who would call the President of the United States a moron is pretty much showing their own intellect.  If their mental abilities are limited to name calling to support their positions, then so be it.  That is their right, but this idea that the American government is somehow an entity apart from the people of the United States is beyond my simple comprehension.  If you call the leaders of my country morons, then you are calling my country moronic, and calling me a moron. You certainly have a right to do so, but do not expect to think you are patriotic. You are insulting me and at the same time exercising a right I hold precious.
Balladeer
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65 posted 04-01-2003 11:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aenimal...consider the loose ends cleared up. It was my fault for overreacting based on the force with which that footage hit me. As I said before it is definitely one of the most poignant pieces I have ever seen displayed. It was impromptu, honest and very real. To read into your words that it could have all been a preconceived sham struck me badly....my apologies for misreading your intentions.

As far as the Canadian issue is concerned, at this time of the year we have tens of thousands of Canadians here in South Florida as we do every year at this time. I play golf with a group of 400 of them 5 days a week so I have a lot of contact with them. It's very interesting how many of them are quite defensive this year, as if they feel that our opinions of them have decreased because their government has chosen not to join the campaign in Iraq. They could not be more wrong, of course, because Canada has always been a strong ally and no American I know would ever feel that way but there is indeed a defensive attitude on their part. Some of them come right out and say "We should be there with you", others say it is their government's choice, not theirs..others don't say anything but one can tell that they are uncomfortable. I guess it's just because our two countries have always been side-by-side in every major event in our history and, to have something this major going on involving such heavy issues like WMD, a fight against terrorism and the liberation of a country from genocidal rule, and not have our countries there fighting together makes them feel a little uncomfortable. I repeat....there is no reason for them to feel that way and I can assure you no one treats them that way but it has produced a feeling unlike any I have ever felt here in over 30 years of our annual Canadian tourist invasion (which we are happy to have ) They look uncomfortable, perhaps a little touchy and a little more distant than I've ever seen. I'll be glad when it gets back to normal!!

Tim...as far as people's right to protest, yes, they have that right, regardless of their views, thanks to living in a democratic country. The reason I began this thread many, many different subjects ago was they do not have the right to protest violently against the protestors with different views or against common citizens. At that point it ceases to be a protest and becomes criminal action. Unfortunately the police just sit there and watch them commit their acts without becoming involved. That's the shame of it...the fact that they have to react with violence shows the weakness of their conviction, in my book.
Ron
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66 posted 04-01-2003 11:57 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Tim, I think you're wrong.

This site, more than most, was founded on the principle that personal attacks have no place in civilized discourse. Attack the position, not the person. But that principle goes out the window when applied to people who ask to be allowed to lead us. Our politicians and policy makers have voluntarily placed their lives under scrutiny, and willingly opened their character to public debate. Should the leaders of our country be selected solely on their experience and skills? Or does character count just as highly? And if character matters, as I believe it must, how is it to be discussed if not openly and without prejudice? That certainly doesn't mean I have to believe every allegation, and the more outrageous ones will be quickly filed with UFO reports and Elvis sightings, but I'd be a damn fool to not listen.

I will also vehemently refuse to define either myself or my country by those elected to lead us. Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein did not define their countrymen, not then and certainly not now. For you or anyone else to express your views on Hitler, an elected official, should not be seen as a denouncement of all Germans. For you or anyone else to express dissatisfaction with George Bush or John Kennedy or Thomas Jefferson won't be seen as a personal indictment against me. I am influenced by my nationality, but I am not defined by it. And I sure as hell am not defined by men I know only through secondary sources.

I find attacking individuals to be abhorrent, especially when it's done in ignorance (and it is always done in ignorance). Unless those individuals have asked for the privilege of leadership. At that point, attacking them is right up there with apple pie and baseball games. God save us from someone so popular (or feared) that no one will step forward to criticize them.
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67 posted 04-02-2003 12:15 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

difference in our occupations and upbringings I suspect.  You can criticize a elected official's policies, fair game and not a problem. I don't quite place Sadam, Hitler in the category of the president. I wouldn't make personal attacks on the Queen, the Prime Minister of Canada, or any number of government leaders.  Might be a quirk of mine.  I personally believe in respect for elected officials and leaders.  I have far more knowledge about the president than I do you Ron, but I wouldn't personally attack you. Just a difference of opinion I guess, I believe in respecting our institutions and not badmouthing them.  I agree you have a right to, but doesn't mean I agree with it.  Questioning them and opposing their positions, yes, personal attacks, nope, don't think so.  But as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  
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68 posted 04-02-2003 12:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I suspect we agree more than disagree, Tim, and are only stumbling over examples.

Would I call any world leader a moron? No. Would you think it relevant to discover your Senator cheated at cards, even if had nothing to do with his political position? I suspect you know enough about human nature to think it very relevant. The character of a politician, whether it be the arrogance of Nixon or the vanity of LBJ, will shape history every bit as much as their qualifications and positions. It needs to be discussed. To put limitations on that discussion puts too much power in the hands of those deciding which limitations should be imposed.
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69 posted 04-02-2003 01:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I would not call it a discussion of character with pure insults that have no base in facts or even reasonable possibilities...it is simply name-calling in a very vile manner. You may consider it to be an expression of views but, if so, you are giving it much more credit than it deserves. If I call someone's wife a slut I doubt very much that they will respect my rights to express my opinion (even if it's true! )

In the army you learn "even if you don't respect the man, you respect the position"..
Ron
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70 posted 04-02-2003 01:59 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

In the army, Mike, I doubt you elected very many of your senior officers. That is not a trivial difference. Even then, I would give more credence to your argument had I seen anyone in these forums actually abide by it. How much respect have you shown today for Saddam's position as President of Iraq? If "position" is to be respected, why should there be any exceptions? More importantly, who do you trust enough to decide those exceptions? Because whoever it is, you're giving them one major load of power.

You agree and Tim agrees and I agree that character scrutiny shouldn't creep into character assassination. But we come right back to the same problem of trying to determine who gets the not inconsiderable power of making those decisions. What if I told you that you couldn't call Saddam Hussein sadistic? After all, that's a description of motivation, not of his acts, and unless you've met the man and looked deeply into his heart, you have no justifiable basis for using the insult. Starting to see a problem here? You can't call people names because you believe you're right and not expect others to do exactly the same.

I'm not inventing any new concepts here, guys. This stuff has been around for a little over two hundred years. There is a real good reason why it's almost impossible for a politician to sue for libel or slander. Tim, I'm sure, could even give us the legal language for it. The only alternative to a free-for-all is control. Who do you want to give that control? Because you essentially just gave away the keys to your freedom.
littlewing
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71 posted 04-02-2003 04:48 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

peace

[This message has been edited by littlewing (04-02-2003 05:54 PM).]

Toerag
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Ala bam a


72 posted 04-02-2003 07:47 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Little Wing....yassee?...that's why I'm not going to "reply" here anymore....because, being the Toerag that I am.....I can't post without being:

1. Attacking
2. Vulgar
3. Profane

and last but most importantly,
4. I rarely "think" before I post anything...(have you ever read any of my poetry?)...So, I just monitor Ron cuz he has nobody to moderate him.....He must have a terrible life don't ya think?...Always feeling left out, nobody ever erases or deletes his posts....probably feels neglected...ya think?

Peace, Love and Blacklights...Toe
garysgirl
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73 posted 04-02-2003 10:20 AM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl




[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 06:24 PM).]

garysgirl
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Seraphic
since 09-29-2002
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Florida, USA


74 posted 04-02-2003 10:32 AM       View Profile for garysgirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit garysgirl's Home Page   View IP for garysgirl



[This message has been edited by garysgirl (04-03-2003 06:04 PM).]

 
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