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Politically Correct?

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Poet deVine
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25 posted 03-15-2003 03:05 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Facts instead of emotion? When it comes to the discussion of freedom and patriotism and loss of innocent lives, facts seem to fly out my window.

I am truly saddened by the attitude of some Americans towards the countries that are not joining us in a military action against Iraq. In my opinion, we have no right to tell them how to run their country. If they choose to sit by, then they can do that. Then for some people to boycott ‘French’ words, products and all things French is childish. It’s like saying ‘if you don’t play MY way I’m going to bad-mouth you until you do’. What an immature attitude. This is sure to propagate anti-American sentiments around the world. Do we think to punish people because they don’t see things OUR way? You know, I think we’re better than that. I think if we stoop to name calling and farcical boycotts, we are lowering the respect we have for ourselves as well as the respect we get from others. I often told my kids that they should treat everyone the same – no matter what. If someone screams at them, don’t scream back. BE the person you are no matter what – don’t lower yourself to someone else’s level.

To say that WE 'saved' the French during World War II is an exaggerated statement. We sat back on our butts for most of the war – my opinion again. And lest you say that I should back up my opinion with fact, please read on. I’ve spent a few days looking up timelines for WWII on the Internet. I find it interesting that we didn’t jump to the defense of Europe sooner. President Roosevelt asked Hitler in a telegram dated April 14, 1939 (see below):

quote:

Are you willing to give assurance that your armed forces will not attack or invade the territory or possessions of the following independent nations: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain and Ireland, France, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iraq, the Arabias, Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Iran.



Note: Here is the reference site if you wish to read all of Roosevelt’s speeches: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-toc.html

On September 1, 1939, Hitler invaded Poland. And we did nothing.
On September 10, 1939, Canada declared war on Germany. And we did nothing.
On April 9, 1940, the Nazis invade Denmark and Norway. And we did nothing.
On May 10, 1940, The Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg. And we did nothing.
On Oct 7, 1940 , German troops enter Romania. And we did nothing.
April 6, 1941, Nazis invade Greece and Yugoslavia. And we did nothing.

It was only when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor did we enter World War II. How many innocent lives were lost in Europe before we acted?

I think if we go to war we should do so with dignity and pride. If another country chooses not to join us. Ok. So be it, everyone is entitled to their political opinion. We shouldn't start throwing stones at anyone about past involvements in wars.

Otherwise, we’re going to need a heck of a lot of Windex for this glass house we live in…

***

1930
Sept 14 - Germans elect Nazis making them the 2nd largest political party in Germany.
1932
Nov 8 - Roosevelt elected President of the United States.
1933
Jan 30 - Adolf Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany.
March 12 - First concentration camp opened at Oranienburg outside Berlin.
April 1 - Nazi boycott of Jewish owned shops.
May 10 - Nazis burn books in Germany.
In June - Nazis open Dachau concentration camp.
Oct 14 - Germany quits the League of Nations.

1934
July 25 - Nazis murder Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss.
Aug 2 - German President Hindenburg dies.
Aug 19 - Adolf Hitler becomes Führer of Germany.
1935
March 16 - Hitler violates the Treaty of Versailles by introducing military conscription.
Sept 15 - German Jews stripped of rights by Nuremberg Race Laws.
Nov 11 – Roosevelt’s Address on Armistice Day http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-04.html
“The primary purpose of the United States of America is to avoid being drawn into war. We seek also in every practicable way to promote peace and to discourage war. Except for those few who have placed or who place temporary, selfish gain ahead of national and world peace, the overwhelming mass of American citizens are in hearty accord with these basic policies of our Government, as they are also entirely sympathetic with the efforts of other Nations to avoid and to end war”

1936
Feb 10 - The German Gestapo is placed above the law.
March 7 - German troops occupy the Rhineland.
May 9 - Mussolini's Italian forces take Ethiopia.
Aug 1 - Olympic games begin in Berlin.
Aug 31 – Roosevelt’s statement on the passage of the Neutrality Act
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-03.html

1937
June 11 - Soviet leader Stalin begins a purge of Red Army generals.
Nov 5 - Hitler reveals war plans during Hossbach Conference.
1938
March 12/13 - Germany announces 'Anschluss' (union) with Austria.
Aug 12 - German military mobilizes.
Sept 30 - British Prime Minister Chamberlain appeases Hitler at Munich.
Nov 9/10 - Kristallnacht - The Night of Broken Glass.

1939
Jan 30, 1939 - Hitler threatens Jews during Reichstag speech.
March 15/16 - Nazis take Czechoslovakia.
March 28, 1939 - Spanish Civil war ends.
Apr 14, 1939 = Telegram by President Roosevelt  to the Chancellor of Germany Adolf Hitler http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-12.html

May 22, 1939 - Nazis sign 'Pact of Steel' with Italy.
Aug 23, 1939 - Nazis and Soviets sign Pact.
Aug 25, 1939 - Britain and Poland sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty.
Aug 31, 1939 - British fleet mobilizes; Civilian evacuations begin from London.
Sept 1, 1939 - Nazis invade Poland.
Sept 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.
Sept 4, 1939 - British Royal Air Force attacks the German Navy.
Sept 5, 1939 - United States proclaims neutrality; German troops cross the Vistula River in Poland.
Sept 10, 1939 - Canada declares war on Germany; Battle of the Atlantic begins.
Sept 10, 1938 – Roosevelt’s address before a joint session of the Senate and House of Representatives recommending revision of the neutrality law http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-14.html
"Fate seems now to compel us to assume the task of helping to maintain in the western world a citadel wherein that civilization may be kept alive. The peace, the integrity, and the safety of the Americas-these must be kept firm and serene."

Sept 17, 1939 - Soviets invade Poland.
Sept 27, 1939 - Warsaw surrenders to Nazis
Sept 29, 1939 - Nazis and Soviets divide up Poland.
In Oct - Nazis begin euthanasia on sick and disabled in Germany.
Nov 8, 1939 - Assassination attempt on Hitler fails.
Nov 30, 1939 - Soviets attack Finland.
Dec 14, 1939 - Soviet Union expelled from the League of Nations.
1940
Jan 8, 1940 - Rationing begins in Britain.
March 12, 1940 - Finland signs a peace treaty with Soviets.
March 16, 1940 - Germans bomb Scapa Flow naval base near Scotland.
April 9, 1940 - Nazis invade Denmark and Norway.
May 10, 1940 - Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands; Winston Churchill becomes British Prime Minister.
May 15, 1940 - Holland surrenders to the Nazis.
May 26, 1940 - Evacuation of Allied troops from Dunkirk begins.
May 28, 1940 - Belgium surrenders to the Nazis.
June 3, 1940 - Germans bomb Paris; Dunkirk evacuation ends.
June 10, 1940 - Norway surrenders to the Nazis; Italy declares war on Britain and France.
June 14, 1940 - Germans enter Paris.
June 16, 1940 - Marshal Pétain becomes French Prime Minister.
June 18, 1940 - Hitler and Mussolini meet in Munich; Soviets begin occupation of the Baltic States.
June 22, 1940 - France signs an armistice with the Nazis.
June 23, 1940 - Hitler tours Paris.
June 28, 1940 - Britain recognizes Gen. Charles de Gaulle as the Free French leader.
July 1, 1940 - German U-boats attack merchant ships in the Atlantic.
July 5, 1940 - French Vichy government breaks off relations with Britain.
July 10, 1940 - Battle of Britain begins.
July 23, 1940 - Soviets take Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
Aug 3-19 - Italians occupy British Somaliland in East Africa.
Aug 13, 1940 - German bombing offensive against airfields and factories in England.
Aug 15, 1940 - Air battles and daylight raids over Britain.
Aug 17, 1940 - Hitler declares a blockade of the British Isles.
Aug 23/24 - First German air raids on Central London.
Aug 25/26 - First British air raid on Berlin.
Sept 3, 1940 - Hitler plans Operation Sealion (the invasion of Britain).
Sept 7, 1940 - German Blitz against England begins.
Sept 13, 1940 - Italians invade Egypt.
Sept 15, 1940 - Massive German air raids on London, Southampton, Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool and Manchester.
Sept 16, 1940 - United States military conscription bill passed.
Sept 27, 1940 - Tripartite (Axis) Pact signed by Germany, Italy and Japan.
Oct 7, 1940 - German troops enter Romania.
Oct 12, 1940 - Germans postpone Operation Sealion until Spring of 1941.
Oct 16, 1940 – US institutes the Selective Service Law –
Roosevelt’s Speech: "Ours must once again be the spirit of those who were prepared to defend as they built, to defend as they worked, to defend as they worshipped." http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-20.html

Oct 28, 1940 - Italy invades Greece.
Nov 5, 1940 - Roosevelt re-elected as U.S. president.
Nov 10/11 - A torpedo bomber raid cripples the Italian fleet at Taranto, Italy.
Nov 14/15 - Germans bomb Coventry, England.
Nov 20, 1940 - Hungary joins the Axis Powers.
Nov 22, 1940 - Greeks defeat the Italian 9th Army.
Nov 23, 1940 - Romania joins the Axis Powers.

1941
Jan 6, 1941 – Roosevelt’s annual message to congress http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-22.html
“Let us say to the democracies: "We Americans are vitally concerned in your defense of freedom. We are putting forth our energies, our resources and our organizing powers to give you the strength to regain and maintain a free world. We shall send you, in ever-increasing numbers, ships, planes, tanks, guns. This is our purpose and our pledge."

Jan 22, 1941 - Tobruk in North Africa falls to the British and Australians.
Feb 11, 1941 - British forces advance into Italian Somaliland in East Africa.
Feb 12, 1941 - German General Erwin Rommel arrives in Tripoli, North Africa.
Feb 14, 1941 - First units of German 'Afrika Korps' arrive in North Africa.
Mar 7, 1941 - British forces arrive in Greece.
Mar 11, 1941 - President Roosevelt signs the Lend-Lease Act.
March 27, 1941 - A coup in Yugoslavia overthrows the pro-Axis government.
April 3, 1941 - Pro-Axis regime set up in Iraq.
April 6, 1941 - Nazis invade Greece and Yugoslavia.
April 14, 1941 - Rommel attacks Tobruk.
April 17, 1941 - Yugoslavia surrenders to the Nazis.
April 27, 1941 - Greece surrenders to the Nazis.
May 1, 1941 - German attack on Tobruk is repulsed.
May 10, 1941 - Deputy Führer Rudolph Hess flies to Scotland.
May 10/11 - Heavy German bombing of London; British bomb Hamburg.
May 15, 1941 - Operation Brevity begins (the British counter-attack in Egypt).
May 24, 1941 - Sinking of the British ship Hood by the Bismarck.
May 27, 1941 - Sinking of the Bismarck by the British Navy.
June 4, 1941 - Pro-Allied government installed in Iraq.
June 8, 1941 - Allies invade Syria and Lebanon.
June 14, 1941 - United States freezes German and Italian assets in America.
June 22, 1941 - Germany attacks Soviet Union as Operation Barbarossa begins.
In June - Nazi SS Einsatzgruppen begin mass murder.
June 28, 1941 - Germans capture Minsk.
July 3, 1941 - Stalin calls for a scorched earth policy.
July 10, 1941 - Germans cross the River Dnieper in the Ukraine.
July 12, 1941 - Mutual Assistance agreement between British and Soviets.
July 14, 1941 - British occupy Syria.
July 26, 1941 - Roosevelt freezes Japanese assets in United States and suspends relations.
July 31, 1941 - Göring instructs Heydrich to prepare for the Final Solution.
Aug 1, 1941 - United States announces an oil embargo against aggressor states.
Aug 14, 1941 - Roosevelt and Churchill announce the Atlantic Charter.
Aug 20, 1941 - Nazi siege of Leningrad begins.
Sept 1, 1941 - Nazis order Jews to wear yellow stars.
Sept 3, 1941 - First experimental use of gas chambers at Auschwitz.
Sept 19, 1941 - Nazis take Kiev.
Sept 29, 1941 - Nazis murder 33,771 Jews at Kiev.
Oct 2, 1941 - Operation Typhoon begins (German advance on Moscow).
Oct 16, 1941 - Germans take Odessa.
Oct 24, 1941 - Germans take Kharkov.
Oct 30, 1941 - Germans reach Sevastopol.
Nov 13, 1941 - British aircraft carrier Ark Royal is sunk off Gibraltar by a U-boat.
Nov 20, 1941 - Germans take Rostov.
Nov 27, 1941 - Soviet troops retake Rostov.
Dec 5, 1941 - German attack on Moscow is abandoned.
Dec 6, 1941 - Soviet Army launches a major counter-offensive around Moscow.
Dec 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor;
Dec 8, 1941 - United States and Britain declare war on Japan. Roosevelt’s Speech before joint session of congress declaring war on Japan.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-31.html

Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.
Dec 11, 1941 – Roosevelt’s speech to Congress declaring war on Germany http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/7-2-188/188-33.html
US losses during WWII http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/m01/SMS223R.HTM

Opeth
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26 posted 03-15-2003 03:16 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

It does not matter how late one gets into the game, but how much they contribute to it - and at what cost. Do you actually believe France would not have been conquered by Nazi Germany without the U.S. and Russian assistance?

"I am truly saddened by the attitude of some Americans towards the countries that are not joining us in a military action against Iraq."

~ I have a problem with this statement. All the U.K and U.S wanted was France and the rest of those countries opposed to war with Iraq to back a resolution that would of forced Iraq to comply with the resolutions already imposed upon on said country - France rejected it. This resolution was not one calling for war or supporting war, but supporting what the UN had already demanded Iraq to comply with - disarmament.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (03-15-2003 03:18 PM).]

Opeth
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27 posted 03-15-2003 03:22 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

To war with Iraq or not is one issue, but it boggles my mind how so many people believe that Iraq is complying with the U.N. resolutions, when in FACT they are not.

Proof? The easiest proof of all is time itself. If they were in compliance with the resolutions, why are they only now beginning to destroy bombs and coming forth with some information, still not all, about their weapons programs when they have had 11+ years to comply?


Opeth
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28 posted 03-15-2003 03:30 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Oh...they just all of sudden threw their hands up in the air and said, "We give up!"

Laughable.

The only reason why is the US show of force. Sometimes a bully has to be bullied in order for the bully to stand down.

Bleed your hearts people. Feel sorry and support the anti-war effort. Mock your president as Saddam grows stronger in the minds of the masses. Make the US a laughing stock among the nations of the earth. Don't rally around the flag when other countries are mocking us, those jealous people, but join them, believe in their "propaganda" over family = our US family.


We are our own biggest enemy on this whole issue
Poet deVine
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29 posted 03-15-2003 03:36 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Most people think I'm against the war. I am not. I stand firmly behind my President and my country. I support the military. But I think we need to STOP being 'holier than thou' when it comes to other countries.

Ok - so we don't want them to join us in the 'fight' but only in backing the resolution. If they don't want to they don't have to..it's their choice.

Remember the children's story about the chicken who asked for help to plant wheat, harvest it, grind it, make it into bread? No one wanted to help with the dirty work. But when it came to eating the fresh bread, they all came running.

So do we turn our back on someone because they didn't offer to help? No. We're better than that. We're supposed to be world leaders. Let's act like it instead of acting like spoiled children ordering 'freedom fries'....geesh!
Opeth
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30 posted 03-15-2003 04:00 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Most people think I'm against the war. I am not. I stand firmly behind my President and my country. I support the military. But I think we need to STOP being 'holier than thou' when it comes to other countries."

~ Most people think I am pro-war and I am not. I did not think of you to be anti-war. As for being "holier than thou" - I think we shouldn't project ourselves that way. We should listen to Teddy about walking softly.

"Ok - so we don't want them to join us in the 'fight' but only in backing the resolution. If they don't want to they don't have to..it's their choice."

~ But here is where I have a problem. Certain countries don't want war, but when the offer is on the table for true disarmament, which would equal the peace that those countries want - they still reject it. Why? With all due common sense, they should support the resolution because it does what they want - no war, and real disarmament. Yet, they refuse to support the resolution...the only logical conclusion that I can think of is that these countries are most likely incohoots with Iraq, otherwise I cannot fanthom one single solitary logical explanation not to support the latest U.K. resolution.

"Remember the children's story about the chicken who asked for help to plant wheat, harvest it, grind it, make it into bread? No one wanted to help with the dirty work. But when it came to eating the fresh bread, they all came running."

~ lol - Yes, I do. The frog said, "I won't." The rooster said, "I won't."  I think that is something how it went.

"So do we turn our back on someone because they didn't offer to help? No. We're better than that. We're supposed to be world leaders. Let's act like it instead of acting like spoiled children ordering 'freedom fries'....geesh!"

~ Yeah. The freedom fries thing is penny-ante (sp?).  Again, walk softly...I will not purchase any French products, but I am not going to loudly blab it for the whole world to hear. Quiet retaliation in boycotting, is better. And I don't care if people boycott or not, that is a personal decision.


Poet deVine
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31 posted 03-15-2003 04:17 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I will not boycott French products. I'm not sure I even BUY any in the course of a week (French Fries are not truly French are they? LOL)

serenity blaze
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32 posted 03-15-2003 05:37 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-0/104771311168115.xml


sigh...now how stupid is this?
Balladeer
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33 posted 03-15-2003 06:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Poet deVine, I agree with you that facts must indeed be flying out your window.


I am truly saddened by the attitude of some Americans towards the countries that are not joining us in a military action against Iraq.

As far as I know, America is not asking countries to join us in a military action. It is asking the UN security council to enforce its own restrictions on Iraq. Turkey has turned the US down as far as participating by allowing their land and air space and we have made no complaint against them. That is their choice and their right.

To say that WE 'saved' the French during World War II is an exaggerated statement

I find that an incredible statement. If you can point out a differennt scenario that would have saved France, I would certainly love to hear it. (Can-Can girls kicking Nazi crotches is not acceptable)

We sat back on our butts for most of the war

So you think we should have jumped in much sooner? We're gonna get condemned either way..by sticking our noses in other people's wars or by not doing it. "Sat on our butts"....a very interesting, and sad, way to describe it.

On September 1, 1939, Hitler invaded Poland. And we did nothing.
On September 10, 1939, Canada declared war on Germany. And we did nothing.
On April 9, 1940, the Nazis invade Denmark and Norway. And we did nothing.
On May 10, 1940, The Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg. And we did nothing.
On Oct 7, 1940 , German troops enter Romania. And we did nothing.
April 6, 1941, Nazis invade Greece and Yugoslavia. And we did nothing.


You seem to have a real love affair with the "we did nothing" phrase. When would you have jumped in, Sharon? At the invasion of Poland? Or Denmark? Or would you have been a protester in the street with a sign stating "Germany and Poland are not our concern. American boys shouldn't die in other people's wars." as there surely would have been. It's really easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Of course we know now that Hitler would move on to attempt to conquer all of Europe....but who knew that with an invasion of Poland? If you criticize us for not moving in at the beginning before things got out of hand then you must be adamant that we move on Iraq as soon as possible. They already have a record of invading a neighboring country? Should we have moved in during the Iran-Iraq war with troops or any other of the wars that Europe has had over the years. Your "we did nothing" comments are unwarranted. I don't mean to sound insulting but your use of that phrase so much makes it sound like you are saying the people that died before our intervention were partially our fault because we were not there. I won't accept that. You listed a lot of dates there but I didn't see the one where anyone asked us to join in. With the exception of a nice history lesson I don't see the relevance of the list.

we need to STOP being 'holier than thou' when it comes to other countries.

I think that is an insult without a base. Who is being holier than thou? What is holier than thou supposed to mean anyway? If we say that we are convinced that a certain condition exists and that we will do what is in our best interests to neutralize it, not requiring anyone else to participate, does that translate into holier than thou?

Perhaps you can make a new list....

Hussein killed thousands of his own people with biological weapons....and we did nothing.

Iraq stockpiled weapons of mass destruction....and we did nothing.

Terrorists tried to blow up the WTC...and we did nothing.

The USS Cole was attacked, killing Americans...and we did nothing.

Should the weapons Hussein has stockpiled find their way into terrorist hands killing thousands more Americans, would you then say...and we did nothing? If we don't neutralize this threat, you would be right.

Poet deVine
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34 posted 03-15-2003 07:05 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

quote:

As far as I know, America is not asking countries to join us in a military action. It is asking the UN security council to enforce its own restrictions on Iraq. Turkey has turned the US down as far as participating by allowing their land and air space and we have made no complaint against them. That is their choice and their right.



I stand corrected by Opeth – see above.

quote:

I find that an incredible statement. If you can point out a differennt scenario that would have saved France, I would certainly love to hear it. (Can-Can girls kicking Nazi crotches is not acceptable)



We HELPED – we didn’t do it on our own.

quote:

So you think we should have jumped in much sooner? We're gonna get condemned either way..by sticking our noses in other people's wars or by not doing it. "Sat on our butts"....a very interesting, and sad, way to describe it.



Yes. I do think we should have gotten involved sooner.

quote:

You seem to have a real love affair with the "we did nothing" phrase. When would you have jumped in, Sharon? At the invasion of Poland? Or Denmark? Or would you have been a protester in the street with a sign stating "Germany and Poland are not our concern. American boys shouldn't die in other people's wars." as there surely would have been. It's really easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Of course we know now that Hitler would move on to attempt to conquer all of Europe....but who knew that with an invasion of Poland? If you criticize us for not moving in at the beginning before things got out of hand then you must be adamant that we move on Iraq as soon as possible. They already have a record of invading a neighboring country? Should we have moved in during the Iran-Iraq war with troops or any other of the wars that Europe has had over the years. Your "we did nothing" comments are unwarranted. I don't mean to sound insulting but your use of that phrase so much makes it sound like you are saying the people that died before our intervention were partially our fault because we were not there. I won't accept that. You listed a lot of dates there but I didn't see the one where anyone asked us to join in. With the exception of a nice history lesson I don't see the relevance of the list.



I’ve looked and looked for some record of a request for assistance and so far can’t find it. We offered guns and ammunition by no troops to support the war effort in Europe.

quote:

I think that is an insult without a base. Who is being holier than thou? What is holier than thou supposed to mean anyway? If we say that we are convinced that a certain condition exists and that we will do what is in our best interests to neutralize it, not requiring anyone else to participate, does that translate into holier than thou?




“holier than thou’ is MY opinion that’s why it’s in quotes. There are those who think we are the almighty savior of the world (as you stated about France) but as we have also had a reputation of ‘wait and see’ as in WWII I don’t think we should condemn a country for their decision NOT to vote for the resolution.

quote:

Perhaps you can make a new list....

Hussein killed thousands of his own people with biological weapons....and we did nothing.

Iraq stockpiled weapons of mass destruction....and we did nothing.

Terrorists tried to blow up the WTC...and we did nothing.

The USS Cole was attacked, killing Americans...and we did nothing.

Should the weapons Hussein has stockpiled find their way into terrorist hands killing thousands more Americans, would you then say...and we did nothing? If we don't neutralize this threat, you would be right.




I completely agree with you on these Mike. It is MY opinion that Bill Clinton missed many opportunities to avert acts of terrorism. Hindsight again.

[This message has been edited by Poet deVine (03-15-2003 07:05 PM).]

Balladeer
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35 posted 03-15-2003 07:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Serenity...of course it's stupid. There are a bunch of nutcases out there who are going to have some fun with this just for fun's sake....not unlike the ones who have Hurricane Parties in the face of the oncoming storm. They are not worth giving any credence to because they're being characters...they are certainly a microscopic representation of the country and their actions mean nothing. It's sad that anyone would take them seriously or quote their actions as being representative of Americans in general.

Eddie, I couldn't agree more. Professional reporters have the gift of being able to write a story that can be read in different ways, I suppose. You can see what you find in it and I can't refute it. I can see it another way. I combine it with the other circumstances of what's happening and try to decipher it that way. Coincidence that a product which is on a controlled list due to its ability to be used as a rocket fuel being sold to Syria, which has no use for it, strikes me as strange unless they are acting for Iraq. Also strange that it is happening during Iraq's insistence that they are disarming. I could be as wrong as you could be right. That's one of the beauties of the 'net, being able to see how people feel in other countries.

I will say that Tim's remark about China not worried about being glued is a classic - and holds a lot of truth behind the humor.
Balladeer
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36 posted 03-15-2003 08:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sharon....sorry - I wasn't clear enough. When I said WE saved France I was referring to the US and England, the two prominent players in the liberation....the same two that France is vetoing now.

We have been cast in the role as a world leader by default. Any other country may stand up to claim that title and Uncle Sam will say "Fine....lead, follow or get out of the way."
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


37 posted 03-15-2003 08:48 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

From "Patton":

Mumbling, "The Russians, don't forget the Russians."

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


38 posted 03-15-2003 09:05 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

This is from Serenity's link:

quote:
And White, who said he's not normally a political activist, was inspired when he saw a news brief about Congress designating new names for French toast and French fries in the Capitol commissary.

His reaction: "Why stop there?" said White, who will be passing out "freedom bread" at his petition table today. "I'm just hoping to send a message as American citizens that we don't appreciate them not supporting us when we've supported them for so long."

Asked why the Quarter couldn't simply be renamed the Vieux Carre, which is more or less its official name anyway, White said: "That's a French name. I don't think we should be calling things by French names. I think American things should be called by American names."

What about the state capital?

"Louisiana is full of French names, so this is just a start," he said.


Doesn't it follow that we give back the statue of liberty as well?

The scariest thing is that someone might actually take that comment seriously.  

[This message has been edited by Brad (03-15-2003 09:06 PM).]

Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


39 posted 03-15-2003 09:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I just don't know what ticklers I'm supposed to use now!!
Poet deVine
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Hurricane Alley


40 posted 03-15-2003 10:35 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

You won't need them Mike, as now we will just have non-French kisses...
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


41 posted 03-16-2003 12:26 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

At least we can still have Spanish Fly
Local Rebel
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42 posted 03-16-2003 12:37 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And Polish sausage...

whoever liked Turkish coffee or cigarettes though?  ehk...

I'm def giving up Russian roulette though -- total boycott there.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


43 posted 03-16-2003 01:06 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Sharon -- kudos for doing your homework --

re: France handing over the keys to Paris...

In 1940 the British and the French forces were smashed in Sedan -- and as much fun as that may sound -- the blitzkrieg continued to roll through without much resistance -- it was only Hitler's incompetence that allowed the English to escape because he wanted the Luftwafe to have a victory at Dunkirk and held in the reigns on the 10th Panzer division.

Given the Nazi Juggernaut at Paris gates -- a good General knows when to retreat -- a good chess player cedes a game he can't win -- a leader of a country who actually cares about it's citizens would surrender rather than fight to the last man...

The Masada scenario just wouldn't have played well in Paris.

No one had really ever seen what an armada of tanks could do before this --
 
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