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Passions in Poetry

Why are fast readers picked on?

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Cpat Hair
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50 posted 03-17-2003 01:55 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Brad...
NO tiff bud... no anger...no frustration...

boring to me..is that people will instead of focusing on the larger pisture and the larger things to be drawn from a conversation they will resort to the minute details that have vailidity but do not address the over arching issues.

I've watched many a dog chase its tale.. and not a one of them ever did anything but run in circles...

had anyone I think but you and perhaps one or two others made comment on what I said..I wouldn't have replied..

my answer... my reply...is no.. I am not in a tiff.. I am not angry or emotional about this at all...and that was important to me to say...



Later all...
bsquirrel
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51 posted 03-17-2003 02:20 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

i wuz hear
Cpat Hair
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52 posted 03-17-2003 03:32 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

mikey..always glad you are around..and glad the hospital stay is over for you...
you take care of mike... there are a few of us around here that think highly of him.

Poet deVine
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53 posted 03-17-2003 03:37 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I like Mike too~!
bsquirrel
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54 posted 03-17-2003 05:24 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

He's an okay guy, I guess.

Thanks, everyone.
Martie
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55 posted 03-17-2003 07:44 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

hospital?
Poet deVine
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56 posted 03-17-2003 08:04 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Go ahead Martie..smack him around for not telling us!!

Severn
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57 posted 03-17-2003 08:26 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Yeah! Scuse me Mikey??? You ok?

Hey Ron - just to flag it on a bit more:

'instead of focusing on the larger picture and the larger things to be drawn from a conversation they will resort to the minute details that have validity but do not address the over arching issues'

thats the nature of discussion m'friend..

K
Cpat Hair
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58 posted 03-18-2003 08:40 AM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Severn...
"thats the nature of discussion m'friend"

thenit is a shame we do not learn to discuss with the intent of finding the bigger picture and wrapping a framework around it so there is common ground before we enter into the nit picking of detail. One can nit pick anything to death... and never reach any agreement or understanding, putting people at opposite ends of a spectrum when it comes to truly understanding...
but in my experience if the overarching framework of an issue is agreed upon..then resolving the details of the issue becomes a series of steps and perhaps understandings that can lead to true progress in everyone at least further embracing the need to make change...

to each there own... and from what I have read from you and seen you discuss.. you are far too intellegent to not see what I am saying... you may want to deny it and kick you feet and protest..or try to argue it with me... but.. you do understand..


Brad
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59 posted 03-18-2003 10:49 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What I find funny is that no one seems to realize that I corrected her before this actually became an issue. Check if you want. I added one sentence and I used the term, gist -- I corrected her in a pedagogically correct way (We all do this by the way).

Who actually teaches around here?

I used a textbook approach.

You guys are worried about this?

I'm sorry, but I think if you care about grammar, then it's time to ask exactly the question, it is time to talk, not to walk away.

What is better?

Example:

I happened to believe

I happen to believe

Ah, geez, not perfect but any means but worth talking about.
Ron
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60 posted 03-18-2003 11:41 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
What is better?

In this case, I don't think it's a matter of what is better so much as it is a matter of what is correct. And to determine that, you need to finish the sentence.

At fifteen, I happened to believe I was immortal.

At fifty-two, I happen to believe I wasn't a very smart teen.

If you want to talk about better, then I think you should eliminate the do-nothing words entirely.

At fifteen, I believed I was immortal.

At fifty-two, I believe I wasn't a very smart teen.



Severn
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61 posted 03-18-2003 03:35 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Ron

Hm. It seems to me that you're involved in moving the discussion in a direction that veers away from the original topic at hand - why fast readers are picked on; with such a move, we have progressed (loaded word) from the detail of grammar to the details of 'the bigger picture.'

Now, I wouldn't wish to call you guilty of aiding and abetting the very same process you are protesting against...

That aside, and following my own penchant to 'nit-pick', the main thrust of your paragraph suggests to me that you believe the result of all discussions must involve a resolution. Therefore, I have questions for you.

quote:
Then it is a shame we do not learn to discuss with the intent of finding the bigger picture and wrapping a framework around it so there is common ground before we enter into the nit picking of detail.


Who may I ask is the 'we' you speak of? Myself? Yourself? The poets at passions? The world's intellectuals? Every human being? Have you any right to speak for an unspecified we? Also, I am curious as to how you can claim that the said 'we' fails to find the bigger picture? I am curious as to how your bias against detail has arisen - as if detail and the bigger picture are mutually exclusive entities. Does every discussion need a concrete resolution for it to be a success? (One would then have to define success). Tricky. There are many different ways to look at the so-called central issue of a discussion. For myself - 'we' excluded - I see the central issue as a form of nucleus...with other issues/points of interest revolving around it.

quote:
One can nit pick anything to death... and never reach any agreement or understanding, putting people at opposite ends of a spectrum when it comes to truly understanding...


More questions - questions, that may or may not lead to more discussion. (Assuming, of course, that one does not view tangents as the means of a discussion's death). Should the objective of a discussion - no matter how banal a discussion might be - always be for true understanding? Given that the nature of discussion, (by default, according to my own, separate opinion of course) relies upon different points of view, would all participants wish for 'true understanding' - or is that a fruitless, almost Utopian-like outcome? Ultimately, Ron, who would you suggest defines the nature of true understanding? (Ever read anything by Michel Foucault? Perhaps unfortunately, I have never been able to construct notions of truth in quite the same way after reading him...)

quote:
but in my experience if the overarching framework of an issue is agreed upon..then resolving the details of the issue becomes a series of steps and perhaps understandings that can lead to true progress in everyone at least further embracing the need to make change...


Ah, more words that read straight from a propogandist's day-dream: 'steps', 'true progress', 'embracing', 'need to make change'. (I also note the 'everyone' - linking to the unspecified 'we'). How very neat and tidy. For me, this results in yet more questions, the main one being: what is true progress? Who decides the nature of a discussion's successful progress?

Now, let's apply this part of the discussion back to its original question: why fast readers are picked on.

You said: 'understandings that can lead to true progress in everyone at least further embracing the need to make change'

I ask: In your opinion, what understandings can come from the central issue at hand that could possibly involve 'everyone', (in this case, those currently involved in this discussion), embracing the need to make change? What change? Telling Julie how she can and can't reply perhaps? Or perhaps the rest of us could learn patience, acceptance, understandings of our own? Or perhaps Julie could slow down, 'we' could be more understanding, and everyone is happy? Do these solutions meet your needs of true progress?


quote:
to each there own...


Wait a moment. Did I just see 'to each their own'? Does that not contradict your own philosophy Ron? How can you say we must reach 'true understanding' in one breath, and then say 'to each their own' in the next? Perhaps this indicates a subconcious recognition that true understanding is a difficult myth to effect?

quote:
and from what I have read from you and seen you discuss.. you are far too intellegent to not see what I am saying... you may want to deny it and kick you feet and protest..or try to argue it with me... but.. you do understand


Hopefully, I have shown I do indeed see what you are saying, and I understand it. I don't, however, agree. I have not tried to argue it with you, though it might seem like it; I have, instead, attempted to draw you into further discussion by asking leading questions. If you reply, remember, you will be drifting into - by your own definition - incidentals: non-central issues that won't resolve the central questions of why fast readers are picked on...

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (03-18-2003 03:58 PM).]

Severn
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62 posted 03-18-2003 03:36 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Oops...seems I'm such a big mouth I want to say it all twice...

heh

K


[This message has been edited by Severn (03-18-2003 03:43 PM).]

Cpat Hair
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63 posted 03-18-2003 05:09 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

LMAO....

Severn... dear wise one... I could not hold a candle to the magnificent and intellectual way you have pointed out the questions and potential flaws in my very general and unprecise statement...

attention to detail or dislike for the detail... Hmmmm... lets see... I am in charge of a depatment that builds maintains and troubleshoots web based E commerce solutions driven off of relational databases that contain millions and millions of records. I am the chief interpretor between the technical and the general languages used, meaning, I take geek and translate to human then do the opposite so the two or many sides can work together to meet the needs of the business... I design relational databases to meet application requirements and balance resource demands..then the ongoing responsibility of maintining data integrety in those millions of related records during updates, deletions and addition as well as the security of sensitive financial information  So..yeah... I guess detail is a bit foreign to me and I do not have penchant for understanding it or the importance it has in the overall or general discussion or requirements.

We... ah the universal we... LOL... we as humans in general... do I have a right to speak for them.. oh heck..no more than anyone does or dreams to try and find resolution to conflict and promote understanding... and I am a pretty poor choice for such a job as I tend to have little patience with people and am so opinionated myself I often forget to listen to others...

Now.. contradicitons... I find truly amusing.. yes according to your argument (sorry... your interpretation of what I said) I certainly do contradict myself... something I am sure most of us do when the lnaguage used or the intent does not match the inferences that can be drawn from the language used.  ron<---- raises his hand  Guilty!


Original part of the discussion... now wise one..I assume your being ironic was related to the original subject..pointing out that anothers response ( read as sarcastic) was also flawed in its use of grammer... No..my last post has nothing to do with the original thread....but more to do with the way the participants in the thread choose to discuss and in some case..take less than formal "shots" at the faults or failings of others... which... could be related back to the original topic...or not...

You are far too smart for me to debate...which by the way..is a much different process than discussing...or at least in this poor feeble thing I call a brain it is...

So I'll bow.... hand you all the floor and keep my obviously irritating and innane thoughts to myself... well... at least until I again start to feel in some way I need to do a little bit to foster understanding and perhaps tolerance.... then I'll probably open my mouth and again make a general fool out of myself... of course I am for the most part quite used to doing that... LOL


love your spirit... wise one...

you indeed are a scrapper...

oh yeah..nearly forgot... You win..I am wrong...
we should by all means continue to keep our eyes focused on the details and the rest will be revealed as connected and we can then understand and learn...
dang... sure hate to lose a debate... but I know when I am bested...


[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (03-18-2003 05:25 PM).]

bsquirrel
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64 posted 03-18-2003 05:28 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Yeah, I'm all right. Sorry for not telling anyone until it was past -- it happened fast. "It" being a trip to the emergency room in treatment of a urinary tract infection. "Fast" being three days because the doctors were afraid the UTI might be a complication of my heart condition.

Etc. etc.
Cpat Hair
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65 posted 03-18-2003 05:34 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

you got nothing to apologize to me for bud...
just glad you are ok.

Brad
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66 posted 03-18-2003 06:57 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
something I am sure most of us do when the lnaguage used


Nice touch. Now, don't come back and tell me it was a mistake.

Cpat Hair
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67 posted 03-18-2003 07:07 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Now Brad... it had to be a mistake... I'm not smart enough by any means to plan such out or use it as an example.. I sometimes would like to think I am..but truth is..I'm really just an old farm boy that couldn't make a go on the farm and had to search years ago for some way to make a living.
Blundered into the techno world after spending 20 some years in the automotive parts business.. how smart could anyone be and come not only from a farm..but to go into a business where you sold autoparts..

It was a mistake.
Brad
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68 posted 03-19-2003 11:28 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Ahhh, but do you understand why I pointed that out?

Was, what you call a mistake, make sense?

Can you see it, my friend.

Poetry, it's called poetry.
Cpat Hair
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69 posted 03-19-2003 01:36 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

LOL... Brad... I do have to admit to you.. I was for the most part pulling your leg with my reply...
I see
I understand
I play a fool... often

Brad
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70 posted 03-19-2003 06:54 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And I fell for it. Hmmmm, gonna have to more careful in the future.

Someone said somewhere that only the fool can say the truth. Perhaps he/she was right!
Cpat Hair
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71 posted 03-19-2003 07:09 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

Brad... my grandpa was a wise old man with a 4th grade eductaion... he ended up sitting as a Director on the board of two regional farm co-ops... and left my grandmother pretty secure for money. A smart man...and I watched him play the fool for years with people who just KNEW they were smarter... better eductated.. better spoken... what I never saw... was him be arrogant or rub someone elses face in what they didn't know.

I had an ample opportunity to learn from him..I lived with them for a number of years and worked side by side with him on the farm. I'd like to think that some of the things he believed in I still practice. I can be abrasive and abusive impatient and arrogant... but the one thing he tried so hard to instill in me..and in my own way..I try to pass on to others is that a victory at the cost of another's pride is no victory..but a war postponed.

My whole involvement in this thread..came about in large part because their seemed to be a lack of tolerance and a tendency to take the personalities involved to a level of criticizing what in most of us are common faults. Things we have all been guilty of in most cases..at some time.. and using them like barbs to just poke. I don't agree with everything I read here..or everyones opinon but attacking the person..or "demeaning" the person saying it by using grammer or spelling and or trying to negate the validity of what is being said byusing such devices seems to me to be postponing a war... not winning a victory.. and certainly not changing people's ideas.

How well do you like being force fed an idea? Me... not very well... and for a lot of people if not most..leading them to the conclusions rather than making them choke on them...seems a lot more effective.

OK... now.. I truly think I am done here.. Severn may come along and read this and point out again how I contradict myself by adding on to the thread....when above I said I conceded... and she'll be right...and I'll have to live withthe egg on my face and her gloating for a million years or something

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72 posted 03-20-2003 12:50 AM       View Profile for Ratleader   Email Ratleader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ratleader's Home Page   View IP for Ratleader

This my first visit to The Alley, picked up a random thread and saunter-read down through it, mainly mumbling "Good grief!" every thirty seconds or so.

Need some street lights in this alley. Think I'll go somewhere else.

~~(¸¸¸¸ºº>   ~~(¸¸¸¸ºº>  ~~(¸¸ ¸¸ºº>    ~~~(¸¸ER¸¸ºº>
______________Ratleader______________

Severn
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73 posted 03-20-2003 04:07 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

I don't gloat sir! Humph... I just like proving points, petty little points for the hell of it...

(sad little individual that I am heh)

take care Mr Ardent

K
Cpat Hair
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74 posted 03-20-2003 06:22 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

LOL....
Severn.. come here girl! ((HUG))

[This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (03-20-2003 07:49 PM).]

 
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