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Passions in Poetry

Decadence and Hedonism

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


25 posted 12-15-2002 12:04 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,

"if being a lady means I am a housemaid to keep a house clean, have supper ready for my husband, and bear children while staring at the walls of my house and occasionally host tea-parties, then thanks but no thanks."


I don't think that  makes a woman more of a lady at all in most cases, but it doesn't mean she is not a lady for those choices.  If in her truth she has esteem, seeks honour and dignity she is a lady; if she has not or seeks none of these and has no shame for that, she is not a gentlewoman at all, to a noble mind.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-15-2002 12:12 AM).]

Ron
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26 posted 12-15-2002 12:55 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Essorant, there is no nobility to a mind that would judge others except in how they treat others. Seeks honor and dignity? Anyone who thinks to determine those for another will never know what they are.
hush
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27 posted 12-15-2002 02:40 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'I don't think that  makes a woman more of a lady at all in most cases, but it doesn't mean she is not a lady for those choices.  If in her truth she has esteem, seeks honour and dignity she is a lady; if she has not or seeks none of these and has no shame for that, she is not a gentlewoman at all, to a noble mind.'

there is a definite connotation with the word 'ladylike'- that connotation is a quiet, gentle, pretty woman who doesn't raise her voice or burp in public or put her needs in front of the needs of others...

And besides, you are using biased terms. Honor? Dignity? Those things, to you and I, are obviously quite different things- and Ron's right. No person has the right to define morals for another person, or jusge them based on that. In my opinion, the only morality for which there can even be the argument for universal good vs. bad is the idea that you shouldn't willfully hurt other people. But even that is fuzzy, situational, and relative (IMO).

I seek honor and dignity in my own way. But, as my definitions of these terms are quite different than yours, and (far from shame) I feel only an immense pride in having my own individual morality, am I no longer a 'lady'?
Christopher
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28 posted 12-15-2002 07:49 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Essorant - there is nothing wrong with looking at the past and incorporating it with the now. It is living in the past (or attempting to, since that is impossible) that I find silly. We learn for a reason - what we believe now is so different from some of the times in our past as to be unrecognizable. Does that mean that it's wrong? Of course not, no more wrong than it will be tomorrow to live with the adjustments today bring you.

Even the days which you speak of (and i'm with hush 100% on my views of how 'ladies' were looked upon) had their share of debauchery and evil. You're only considering fairy tales, the ones that show the women being respected and the men being gentlemen. It doesn't cover the large populations of prostitutes (it's not called the world's oldest profession without reason), the out-of-control drinking, violence, thievery, rustling, etc.

There is no point in man's history that you can find a scene of idyllic peace. It just doesn't exist. Instead, what you find is that the authors accentuate what we define as valued traits (honor, integrity, etc.) while playing down the opposites. (This is arguable, of course, depending on what source you're pulling from. I'm thinking the ones you're looking at are more romanticized than realistic.)

I guess in the end it still comes down to the same thing: You can define your own nirvana, but you can't mine.
Essorant
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29 posted 12-15-2002 08:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You can claim subjectiveness or individuality to as much as you want but decadence and hedonism will never be able to be honour or dignity, or make a lady more true, or make the better truth of morals,  respect, prosperity or civilization.   There are cheif natures of these things, that though they are not absolute, they always will be associated with the words historically and naturally.
They have never, and will never be perfect, but  in them there is knowing of what is cheifly better to pursue and what is better to avoid.




[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-15-2002 08:52 PM).]

Christopher
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30 posted 12-15-2002 09:10 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
There are cheif natures of these things, that though they are not absolute, they always will be associated with the words historically and naturally.
Did you know that in many eastern cultures (cultures far older and more established than ours), prostitution is looked on not as decadence, but rather as an honorable and necessary profession?
hush
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31 posted 12-15-2002 10:45 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

And in Eastern religions, there is much more emphasis on human interconnectedness, not just with other humans, but with nature as well. Selflessness is key in Hinduism and Buddhism, and (from what I know) they often place great emphasis on abstinence as a path to God, or enlightenment. Maybe you should look into these alternative faiths/means to God/the ultimate/whatever you call it... the lifestyle seems like it would fit you.

I haven't heard much about eastern prostitution, other than that I read (according to some radical feminist book that I can't properly cite here because the title is innapropriate...) that in ancient easter cultures, prostitution was revered. But I don't trust Inga Muscio, so, like I said, I'm not quite sure...

Anyway, your last post just shows a terrific hard-headedness about accepting other points of view on anything, and an extreme determination to stick to your guns (even if they are Revalutionary [did I just misspell that?] War era muskets) without considerating tolerance for the subjectivity of human nature... even though that's about all I see in your argument.
Essorant
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32 posted 12-15-2002 11:37 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Christopher

Many of those cultures bestow little protection and equality for women, so prostitution is a constant predominant part of the living condition that they are raised in.  They don't know much better, and have no escape from decadence, and are forced to make the most of it.  It is mostly the governments in these cases, not the people.  If the people had a passage away from these things the main of them would leave them because they would see the truth that they deserve a better lifestyle and better respect.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-15-2002 11:39 PM).]

Essorant
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33 posted 12-16-2002 12:29 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,

Those emphasis on abstinence though often put abstinence to extreme.  I do not follow extremes.  When we abstain we should also abstain in moderation or else abstinence is in excess, which makes just as little progress and less balance!  I am not aganst subjectivity or individuality either, I am just again saying they should be in moderation!
  
Moderation is not just a key, but it is the master key!   It is what keeps nature and civilization in best balance.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-16-2002 12:31 AM).]

Christopher
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34 posted 12-16-2002 07:21 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I'm agreeing with hush once more here and led to ask a question that I'm sincerly curious about: Essorant - what are your definitions of honor and dignity, and how in the world did you come to them?
hush
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35 posted 12-16-2002 04:23 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'I am not aganst subjectivity or individuality either, I am just again saying they should be in moderation!'

But you provide no facts to support your extremely subjective argument.

Tell me how decadence and hedonism harm you, me, or anyone else. I can think of examples to support your case that you haven't yet presented (children involved in pornography, women from third-world countries sold as sex slaves, animals abused in bestial pornography). They don't change my mind, but it seems like they are key points that you'd be addressing in an argument weighted with any factd. Instead, you just consistently reiterate morality- not convincing enough for me. Morality is not as absolute as you are presenting it to be. your moral opinions are subjective, and do not carry enough weight to hold a substantial argument.

Tell me exactly what should be done away with? All sex in the media? Make the argument for where you would draw the line, and why.

Tell me what you would replace this with? How do you propose to reacclimate people you consider sexual deviants into what you consider sexually acceptable? How do you justify this?

Give me something other than your subjective feelings.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


36 posted 12-16-2002 11:16 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think honour is the highest constitution of sacredness that keeps one true to the good of her or himself and to the cheif good of others and the world in general.  There is no absolute unwavering set substance that honour is of, but in its cheif nature it involves seeking to do courtesies, keep word and faith in doings, protect the honour of others, and believe in others to do goodness as well.  It is an individual government influenced by chivalry and nobility-- a steadfastness of the self in approach and way of will toward all things in life, trying to serve as an example to follow of goodness and integrity, that others will admire for truth.  That is I believe one of the cheif truths of what honour is.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-16-2002 11:46 PM).]

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


37 posted 12-17-2002 01:17 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Hush,

I don't know.  I think now that I've just lost my mind.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-17-2002 01:21 AM).]

Christopher
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38 posted 12-17-2002 08:18 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

without even questioning your definitions, Essorant, where in that is 'decadence' and 'hedonism' disallowed?
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


39 posted 12-17-2002 11:11 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I never said that decadence and hedonism shouldn't be allowed.
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


40 posted 12-17-2002 11:16 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

*shaking my head* but I thought that's what this whole post is about? Maybe not that it shouldn't be allowed, but that in your optimal world, they wouldn't exist.

I don't see much difference in the arguments between the two, one's just mroe extreme than the other.
 
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