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Passions in Poetry

This really burns my biscuits...

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Denise
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0 posted 12-01-2002 07:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I heard on the news last night that the PC crowd is at it again. They want to prevent the celebration of Christmas in an effort not to offend anyone who doesn't celebrate it. They want it renamed Winter Festival, or some such generic name nonsense. Why? Do people who celebrate Chistmas demand that others not celebrate their chosen holidays? Of course not. Are we offended when other nationalities/religions/races observe their special days? No.

One school actually had to cancel their planned class trip to see the "Christmas Carol" because the play had a Christmas theme/background and some parents objected and obviously had some political clout behind them. Come on. Couldn't they have just planned an alternative trip for their children if they felt so strongly about it, instead of thowing their weight around and ruining the trip for the rest of the class? I just don't get it. Maybe it's all just a power trip for some people?

Well, it offends me that so many people are so easily offended by everything and have such a non-tolerant attitude, all the while demanding the very same tolerance that they are so unwilling to give to anyone else.

I have a message for them. Christmas ain't going away, so deal with it.


Dark Angel
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1 posted 12-01-2002 08:35 PM       View Profile for Dark Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Angel

YAY Denise, you go girl!!!

I totally agree with you.

Maree  

[This message has been edited by Dark Angel (12-01-2002 08:35 PM).]

Sunshine
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2 posted 12-01-2002 08:38 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


Bah Humbug on them.  Keep planning the Christmas Festivals, Denise...because there is more than commercialism driving the season, and you and I know EXACTLY whom to talk to!

See you and your folded hands in a little while!
Poet deVine
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3 posted 12-01-2002 09:07 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think having your own celebrations is good. But I like the idea of a general 'holiday celebration' that encompasses every religion and belief. We learn about each other more when we let down our barriers and learn about other celebrations.
Miah
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since 08-26-2002
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Pennsylvania


4 posted 12-01-2002 09:26 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

If you don't want to celebrate Christmas don't.  I want to personally, it's not only my religion but I love the closeness I have with my family on that day.  People who do not wish to celebrate it don't, simple as that.  

I respect people that have a different belief than I do, I feel they have a right to celebrate their holiday the way they want to.  Just don't force the majority to cancel their holiday.  If you don't want your child going to see a christmas play, then don't send them, maybe insted of being all huffy try working with the school to do something else, a general play or something.  So everyone can be happy.

so on that note Happy Holiday everyone! be it whatever holiday you celebrate CHEERS!!!


Poet deVine
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5 posted 12-01-2002 10:01 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I think we need to let everyone have their own celebrations..if that group who didn't want to go to see the Christmas play, they should respect the Christians and just not go...it's a two way street.
Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


6 posted 12-01-2002 10:39 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

what makes these people that christmas means what it used to anyway?

Miah
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since 08-26-2002
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Pennsylvania


7 posted 12-01-2002 11:18 PM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

Poet deVine and Christopher, I do agree with you both.   I admit, I do get swept up in the holiday rush I sometimes forget the true meaning of it all.  However, come Christmas  I remember why it is so special and how truly meaningful it is.  
Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


8 posted 12-02-2002 10:54 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Denise,

Are you a victim?
lildevil
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since 11-21-2002
Posts 48
missouri,usa


9 posted 12-02-2002 12:49 PM       View Profile for lildevil   Email lildevil   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for lildevil

i totaly agree with a person should have the right to celibrate what ever holiday they want to with out some over opipioned hypocrite telling them not to and what really amazed me was just yesterday i found out in the state of missourithere cant be a manger scene at any federal location without representing every religion you could never beleive how taky the court house looks where i live
Local Parasite
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Transylconia, Winnipeg


10 posted 12-02-2002 01:20 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

I agree with PDV... I personally like the idea of generalizing the mainstream terminology to include other religious (or non-religious) celebrations that happen to occur around the winter holidays.  It's just more accurate that way.  

I'd venture a guess that less than 10% of all people think of Christ when they hear the word Christmas, which is kind of funny when you think about it... I do think that we should keep the word Christmas specific to those who mean it in a religious way.

Right now Christmas seems to generalize all of the different religious holidays around this time of year, when it's really a specific term, and not a general one... I'd like to see use of the word Christmas related a little more closely to Christianity than it is now.  Ideally, children who hear the word "Christmas" would think of Christ, and not just presents and trees and whatnot.

This can definitely have positive religious implications for the Christian community, Denise.  Think about how much more your children will connect Christmas to God than they would have, if they make the Christmas-Christ connection instead of the Christmas-Presents connection.

Parasite

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
~Aldous Huxley

doreen peri
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since 05-25-99
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Virginia


11 posted 12-02-2002 04:12 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

so called political correctness
breeds dullness and inacceptance;
under the guise of nonexclusion

the philosophy and practice
intrudes, refuses,
alienates and angers,
rightly so, this dangerous
practice

bland and denying,
under a pretense of trying
to assemble and unite,
there instead,
are slights
and separation

so sad the creation
of right and wrong
by those who claim
to corner the market
LoveBug
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12 posted 12-02-2002 04:34 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Alright. Christmas is too Christian? Change it all then.

NO PASSOVER
NO RAMADAN
NO KWANZAA
NO HALLOWEEN (yeah, I know this is mainly a candy thing, but isn't it still a Wiccan Holiday? Forgive my ignorance on this one)

If you're going to change one religious holiday, just change them all.

Most of us go to our grave with our music still inside of us.

Balladeer
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13 posted 12-02-2002 06:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm with you, Denise. Why the minority gets to dictate the rules is beyond me....consider my biscuits burned, too!

...and one doesn't have to wait to be a victim to speak out against stupidity or injustice...we will be soon enough.
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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14 posted 12-02-2002 08:13 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Maree, You've always struck me as a common-sensical person!

Sharon and LP, Well, I don't see anything wrong with having a winter festival in the least, if that's what people want. They should create a new holiday then. They just shouldn't take Christmas and change it into a sectarian holiday (Madison Avenue has dibs on that!) in order to accomodate themselves and others who are overly-sensitive about anything with any kind of religious significance, because religion offends them.

Karilea, so true, so true! In the end, that's what makes all the nonsense bearable, isn't it?!

Miah, May Christmas cheer fill up your heart throughout the year!

Christopher,  I think the PC crowd just wants to strip it of the last vestiges of sprituality that it has left, because they find Christ offensive.

Brad, not in the least. Just fed up to my eyeballs with PC nonsense. It gets more nonsensical everytime they open their mouths, no matter the topic du jour, religious or otherwise.

lildevil, I can see the point about not having religious artifacts on government buildings and property. I tend to agree that it isn't appropriate due to the separation of Church and State issue which I see as a real good thing in our Constitution. We'd never want to end up with a State sponsored religion or a church sponsored state. I think they should stay as separate as possible. We don't have to look too far in the world to see what kind of damage can be done by that type of situation.

I, too, think it is totally ludicrous to try to represent every religious affiliation on City Hall or the Courthouse steps at Christmas or for any other religious holiday. I don't see that any of them belong on government buildings. Any such artifacts can be appropriately displayed on private homes and property, churches, synagogues, mosques, meeting halls, etc.

LoveBug,  Yep, if you want to get rid of one, then it follows that you must get rid of them all. That would only be politically correct, right?

Doreen, I agree. I think that the division that they cause due to their suppossed attempts at providing a non-offensive environment for everyone is inevitable because inoffensiveness isn't their real goal. I see it as a power play to try to reshape society's thinking to their way of viewing things, so that they, the minority, can one day become the majority. They are just lusting for power.  

Balladeer, You and I come from a simpler time and place, don't we? I miss those days more and more.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 12-02-2002 09:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And what simpler time would that be?

Isaac Asimov said that the golden age of science fiction is when you're twelve. I suspect that's the simpler time you refer to, Denise.

Okay, I admit that I'm torn here. I find such things as stupid as everyone else, but I find the reactions just as annoying. While some are willing to generalize, let's all get together and call it a Winter Festival, we need to respect others' beliefs, some see it as an opportunity -- Make Christmas for Christians again, bring back spirtuality and all that.

blah, blah, blah.

America has a culture, it has a history, and it is not pretty, simple, or glorious. Both sides of this argument are trying to deny it. On the one, you have people believing that  the past was simpler (The Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? Segregation? A Woman's Place? Slavery?), and on the other you have people attempting to turn America into a sterile dystopia.

It's all so American.

Right now, I can't think of a good reason to go back.

Every once in a while, I remember the last time I was in the States and a friend said, "When are you going to come back to the real world?"

Sorry, I live in the real world, you guys already live in a boring, sterile, dystopian fantasy world.

The PC folks have already won because you dignify it.
Denise
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since 08-22-99
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16 posted 12-02-2002 11:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Brad,

I was thinking more of a time when there was a bit more respect and tolerance, more of a live and let live type of attitude in general toward others and their beliefs and customs, not as much acrimony, not so much in-your-face type of cultural conflict, on the whole. Sure, America was not perfect, the world was not perfect, but I have seen a definite decline in this area in recent years (and this trend I see can hardly just be an American phenomenon). As messed up as it may have been a couple of decades ago, it was a gentler time, comparitively speaking.

Some of America's history wasn't pretty or glorious, but by the same token, much of it was. We can't paint it all with black strokes or with golden ones. Neither paints the complete picture.

I don't begrudge anyone from celebrating Christmas. For many it is just a secular holiday. So be it. It is what it is to each person. What bothers me are those who aren't content with that, who try to change it to suit their outlook and force their ways on others, usually through political means, threatening lawsuits, etc. Sometimes you just have to say enough is enough.

I don't necessarily agree that we dignify those we don't agree with by verbalizing our disagreement with them. I believe that by voicing our opinion we let them know that there are others who have a voice and who don't swallow their viewpoints hook, line and sinker. I think it is a mistake to keep quiet when you feel strongly about something. Even the most outlandish ideas can gain a foothold in society when there is no discernable opposition to it.



Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


17 posted 12-02-2002 11:24 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Arrgh!!!!

As trivial as I think this is, you have a point, Denise. Absurdity can take over.

I still see it as another photo op for politicians though.

As long as this continues, the Left will continue to play into the hands of the Right.

Ah, but I still think your kinder, gentler world of yesteryear is an exercise in nostalgia.

  

Sunshine
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18 posted 12-03-2002 11:13 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Brad said
quote:
Ah, but I still think your kinder, gentler world of yesteryear is an exercise in nostalgia.

Yes, Brad, it probably is.

But it would be what I would want for my children and their children.  A kinder, gentler world.  

Was ours really that kind?  Balladeer, Denise and I are all probably of a similar age.  No, our world was not all that kinder.  We had McCarthyism, we had the Korean War.  We were coming out of the tyranny of one time and looking toward yet another that we could not even have anticipated, although the writers did, and wrote science fiction of what could come.  See how close they were?

What we see on the streets of so many nations, anymore, is the indifference of a vast majority of the future's younger leaders saying "it doesn't matter what I say or do - no one cares, and no one can change what goes on..."

Oh?

How do we know?  Have we all really tried?

Denise is doing one thing, as she always does, so well.  She is standing up for her beliefs.  If I may be so bold to speak for her for a moment, it is not about what we can present each other as a gift.  It is more of giving ourselves as a gift to others.  It IS in understanding that she brings this thread up - why is it she can understand the minority parents who think it's not politically correct to celebrate Christmas...where is THEIR understanding?

Good discussion, people.
Midnitesun
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Gaia


19 posted 12-03-2002 02:02 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

As long as all the colors of the rainbow are allowed to shine, I don't feel any one colors is superior to the next, and religions colors everything in this world.
Celebrate Christmas, celebrated the festival of lights, Ramadan, and all of them. But maintaining the separation between church/religion (or the lack-therof) and the GOVERNMENT is what keeps us all free to follow our own starlight.
I celebrate with you, Denise, as well as celebrating the festival of lights, OM chanting, and circling 'round with the wiccans. There are so many beautiful traditions, and they should all be allowed to flourish when they don't invade another's free space.
Thanks for an interesting timely holiday thread.
Happy Holidays to all.  
quietlydying
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the wonderful land of oz


20 posted 12-03-2002 02:45 PM       View Profile for quietlydying   Email quietlydying   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for quietlydying

'christmas isn't about the spirit of giving.  it's about the spirit of obligation.'   [anonymous]

/jen/

i'm so bitterly disappointed.  betty, i think it's time you leave now.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


21 posted 12-03-2002 06:57 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Hard to tell what you meant there but what's wrong with obligation?
Local Parasite
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22 posted 12-03-2002 07:01 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

Did she say there's anything wrong with it, Brad?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


23 posted 12-03-2002 07:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, but the question still stands.
Local Parasite
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24 posted 12-03-2002 07:41 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

touche...
 
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