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Passions in Poetry

a public complaint to pip...

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Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 10-13-2000
Posts 906
Oregon (yeah!)


0 posted 07-28-2002 10:22 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor

I'd like to repost this in a more public forum, because it addresses an issue I believe needs to be heard, and because I’m pretty damned upset...

A poem of mine, posted in Adult, was granted a complaint from another member. This was done discreetly, e-mailing a moderator in charge of that forum... what was said I do not know. And frankly, does not concern me...  The behavior of the moderator, however has left me frankly appalled.

The issue in question (or what was made to be the issue) were offending words (profanity) in the poem. Words I have used several times before in writing poetry in Adult that were never questioned, WERE in fact replied to by many moderators, including the one in spoken of...

... in this case, I was never asked if I would remove the words myself, nor e-mailed by the moderator contacted, and nothing was brought to my attention in a manner that would include compromise or consideration… the first notice I had came from a reply to the poem composed by this moderator that immediately debased the poem.

After the insult, I was told the poem would not be locked but was under review...

Because this had been addressed in public, I returned the favor, arguing for the right of the poem to stay, and asking WHY the poem was in question at all...

During this "discussion" I was blocked from editing any of my posts, hindering me from doing anything about whatever issue was given...

Now that I have the freedom to edit my own work, I've substituted words for the offending profanity (of my own volition, which could have been done much earlier with a lot less bad blood)... though in my mind, replacing 5 words doesn't change the poem a bit... but that’s besides the point…

I want to state that I feel like there have been liberties taken here that I would never expect from a Senior Moderator...

To take personal opinion and use it to slander the work of another member? Then to use such poor judgment and prejudice in dealing with what could have been a very easy situation to handle…

and then, when confronted with these concerns, a terse apology (ah, but an apology, and that does satisfy me to a degree) blaming the revilement on an outside personal problem…

Aside from personal offense (which I can easily get over), what concerns me is the edge of superiority in this case… what if each issue here were dealt with in such a manner? A new member writes something that falls within their understanding of the guidelines, and instead of the usual care taken in deciding the best course of action (and some sort of alert other than in reply to the post itself), the work in question is attacked on the forums, followed with an abrupt warning … nothing further.

If this is something that seems disgraceful to do to a new member… exactly what separates the old from the new, or what determines which member gets what amount of respect?

Overall, I am VERY disappointed with the route of this incident. I would, and I DO, expect better from Passions.
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


1 posted 07-28-2002 11:18 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Just for public record, I am the moderator that Elizabeth speaks of here.

The only reason I know of for your inability to edit your post is that the site was being moved to a new server and there may have been some problems.

Under normal circumstances a post is removed to the SM or DM forum. But I felt we were adult enough in the Adult Forum to discuss it.

I apologize for my critique of your poem. I am not happy that you circumvented the software to post several words that the software filter usually catchs.

If you want my resignation, you are welcome to email Ron and complain. I can tell you honestly, the mood I'm in today I would gladly give it.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


2 posted 07-28-2002 11:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

And you have a right to expect better, Elizabeth. But I'm sure you don't expect perfection, because we all know that no one around here is that. We all have bad days. We all have personal situations that affect how we see things, something prolonged pain can do all too easily. And, perhaps most importantly, we all have "hot buttons" that influence our decisions.

There are a few words remaining in our filters because those words are -- for many, many people -- hot buttons. They are offensive, sometimes to the point of nausea. And, yea, sometimes to the point of eliciting rudeness. One can (and I'm sure many will) argue whether they "should" be so offensive, but that just begs the real question.

When you use those words, you push a button. Add to that the fact that you purposely circumvented the software filters, and you can mix irritation with the nausea. I assure you, if I wanted our software constraints turned off in Adult, I would find a way to do so. They're there for a reason, and even if you disagree with them, I hope you'll humor me.

Those certainly aren't justifications for rudeness, of course, but are just explanations. Our job, as poets, is to understand people. Their weaknesses, as well as their many strengths. And because no one around here is perfect, those weaknesses exist in all of us. Push the right (wrong?) buttons, and any of us can overreact.

You've received one apology already, Elizabeth, and you have mine as well. We'll try to do better.
RSWells
Member Elite
since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


3 posted 07-28-2002 11:53 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

Whoa there! Let's all take a deep breath. While ignorant of the particulars in this case I do believe that unless the posts were insultive in a personal way (ie. someone known to us having their name mentioned) or graphic in it's violence (children or bloodletting, which I doubt) then it being the adult section why should not anything go?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


4 posted 07-28-2002 11:56 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

This saddens me very much. No resignations, please--there's no need for any of this, if I might offer my most humble opinion.

Admittedly, I arrived late to the situation, and I'm still unclear exactly what happened. I do wish you two would talk with each other--there was obviously a great deal of mis-communication here. And forgive me if I misspeak. I do not know all of the details, admittedly. But I do know the both of you to be lovely people, and there has to be a better way than this.

I also strongly suspect that we are all human, as well, and? It seems to me it's been a lousy day for many of us. (me included--not that that is signicant to anyoe but ME) but? I do know this, tomorrow is another day, and I will get some rest, and wake up and try to do better t'morrow...

Love to you both, with hugs...sigh.
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


5 posted 07-29-2002 12:12 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

And I will come clean as the person who alerted Sharon in the first place. Not to the poem, which I still enjoy in all its adult-explicit rhythm, but to yr reply to Serenity's poem.

If th' rest of you saw her reply, it was a lot of angry venting, which is fine. But I thought the amount of casual profanity seemed rudderless rather than purposeful -- more like raging at the dark than trying to turn on a light. I just put myself in Elizabeth's shoes, and realized, if I had posted something like that, I would want to clean myself up before anyone else saw it. The equivalent of writing an awful letter to your ex-girlfriend and then tearing it up (except, I sometimes sent them on anyway ... ow ow ow ow) So I sent a general alert to Sharon and Temptress, asking what the rules were for adult.

The reason I sent the general alert was because I didn't want this out in the "open" in the Deputy Moderators forum. I felt it was a small thing that the moderators could hash over with Elizabeth and solve rather quickly, rather than anyone who happens to have a star badge be able to become involved in it. Many of those people don't even post in adult, so, frankly, they can butt out.

I did not realize that this would then go on to color the reception of Elizabeth's poem. If it did because of my actions, I apologize profusely.

Can we all shake hands, poet friends?

Mike

She said burn ... together.
-TON



[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (07-29-2002 02:21 PM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


6 posted 07-29-2002 02:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, this IS the Alley where opposing points of view are acceptable and I have mine. I will preface them by saying I have the utmost respect, ms cor, for your poetic abilities.

Having said that, I have read your entry here several times and one thing jumps out at me....nowhere does it state that you deliberately violated the rules for your own benefit. It does state that you believe yourself to being a victim but nothing to indicate it was your disregard for the rules that caused this entire episode to come into being. It was not a case of error, of misunderstanding, of an honest mistake....you knew what the rules were, you knew how to bypass the program enabling you to break them and you did so deliberately. Whether or not you had ever used those words before, whether or not moderators had responded before, you knew that you would have to circumvent the security functions of the site to use them. That in itself would tell you they were not permissable yet you did so anyway.

You say now you have substituted words for the offending profanity and it could have been done with a lot less bad blood.....it could have been done with NO bad blood if you had not violated the rules in the first place. You state that changing the five words doesn't change the poem a bit and yet it was important enough for you use a way around the rules to use them in the first place. One has to ask why if they were that insignificant? It would appear that, to you, the issue is not that you deliberately disregarded the rules and thumbed your nose at Ron for having them, but that you were not treated politely enough when called on it.

Yes, everyone should be treated politely. Yes, the rules should not be intentionally broken. Well, things happen when humans are involved. Both happened and the only difference is that yours prefaced the second, giving it the opportunity to happen.

Poet DeVine has apologized for her brusque attitude. Ron has apologized for peace-keeping purposes, I suppose. Yet I have seen no apology from you for your intentional breaking of and disregard for the guidelines established by the owner of the site. You did it. You got called on it. Big deal. Life goes on. There's no reason to show such anger and disappointment at reactions for the rules YOU intentionally violated.

You mention a concern for the newer members? So do I. Most of their actions are formed from what the senior members do and, yes, they SHOULD be concerned if they disregard the rules of the site and find ways to break them because they WILL be called on it and they should not have the right or opportunity to say, "Well, we saw Elizabeth Cor do it and she's a senior member."


Finally...what member gets what amount of respect? That's easy. Those who respect the site and it's rules and guidelines get the most respect. Thos who don't get the least....period.

The fault lies in the action and the reaction. Call it a draw....sounds fair to me
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


7 posted 07-29-2002 03:56 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Wait, aren't opposing points of view acceptable everywhere, not just th' Alley? Just seems like a strange way t' start th' post...

And did Elizabeth intentionally violate rules? My take on it is she just wrote. It was the software's faultiness. I could be wrong, but I really don't think she intentionally "hacked" adult. Let's look at this way -- THIS IS ONLY A POETRY SITE! If she could hack, wouldn't she have better things to hack?

I dunno ... it just seems like something so small has now blown up beyond all proportion into allegations and presumptions. On everyone's part.

Hot summer, ah guess...

She said burn ... together.
-TON

[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (07-29-2002 03:58 PM).]

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


8 posted 07-29-2002 04:18 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


In this instance, BSQ, I need to reiterate that if Elizabeth circumvented the filters in place, then she did more than "just write poetry".  But I do not think the word "hacked" was used, and/or applied to anyone.

Yes, it is hot out, and yes, the appropriate people have come and have had their say, and this should now be the place where everyone shakes hands, goes back to their desks, and writes some more poetry and/or prose.

As has been said, things happen, and life goes on.  Hopefully everyone has now had a chance to cool down, review the guidelines if they need to be reviewed, and can get on with getting along.  

Thanks for allowing me my two cents.

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (07-29-2002 04:21 PM).]

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


9 posted 07-29-2002 04:21 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I know nobody said hack, Sunshine. I just mean ... I don't think Elizabeth was trying to circumvent the filters. I thought it was just because of the move, that it happened that words came out where asteriks should have otherwise. But, I'm just doin' piecemeal guesswork. Elizabeth can have her say on what happened. I'm just still amazed that this has gotten this big. Awright, I'm steppin' out of this one.

Mikey

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


10 posted 07-29-2002 05:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Unfortunately, Mikey, there are indeed ways to circumvent the filters by inserting certain symbols within the offending word which do not print out but which permit the word to pass by the censor software. They were used in this case.....

Like you say, it's just a poetry site. There does not need to be name-calling or outrage on either side. We accept responsibilities for our actions and we move on.....hopefully to write more poetry
Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 10-13-2000
Posts 906
Oregon (yeah!)


11 posted 07-29-2002 05:32 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor

This is NOT an attack on Sharon… if this were simply an issue with her I would have confronted her directly (I did, actually, in the adult forums) had there been more I needed to hash out WITH HER, would have done so via email… this isn’t a complaint about a Big Bad Moderator, it’s a complaint about behavior… which extends out to ALL moderators, and announces my complaint to the site… about ONE incident, not the place as a whole (note the title: a complaint to passions, not about), and not a person. I state that I expect better from Passions, this is because I’ve been given reason to expect better…

If an incident like this stands out so strongly, I’d take that as a compliment to the site.

The Moderators here, on a whole, do a great job of separating personal bias with business. I’d like to keep it that way, thanks. That’s my issue… I don’t think Mods should be permitted to directly insult members when alerting them of a problem… (add to it that had it not been so degrading an opinion, I might not have even brought it here… ~shrug~ there’s my fallibility. Of course, on THAT tangent, I certainly wouldn’t want any special treatment either… example: how on EARTH do my “poetic abilities” have ANYthing to do with this thread?)

And, also, admittedly? Because it was Sharon, who’s overall conduct on the site (that I have seen) over the period of time that I’ve been here has given me reason to come to respect her… so my expected standards of her behavior are probably a little higher… I think they should be.

As expressed before, in the Adult thread, and to another mod that contacted me… the filter and the little slap to the hand that I got, isn’t an issue… it’s a moderator using their own prejudice to justify debasing a post. If Sharon had come in and said those very same words, completely separate?… go her. She’s welcome to think anything and say anything about my poem that she would like and I’d welcome the comments, this goes for anyone else… if it’s that person acting as themselves alone, not the person acting as a moderator…

I don’t expect perfection… not from this site or the people in it… but I certainly enjoy my freedom to make a stand when I feel the desire or need to do so (this IS the Alley, after all).

~
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum13/HTML/000575.html

link in Q & A from a long time ago…

in the post ABOVE I brought up the issue of filters, I was not told they were not allowed in that forum, but instead given the assumption that the filters were a software issue…

So I continued to write USING those words, using asterisks in place of certain letters, so the words could be written without being entirely blanked out…

Which brings us to the issue of the circumventing (which seems to be the ‘hot button’ here, used almost more than the use of the words)… WHAT is the difference between writing a word with an asterisk substituting a vowel: “w*rd” vs. finding a way to keep that vowel in the word?

Honestly simply asking for clarification... the purpose of mentioning that the words were used blatantly in other posts, and brought to attention in the Q & A, is that they were seen, frequently, by moderators, and never addressed… so, I presumed that they were allowed in that individual forum.

I make a point of this, not to claim my innocence, but my ignorance, if I thought that those words were an issue in Adult, I wouldn’t have “hacked” (hehe mike) the filters…

But it would have been nice had I asked first, hm? Putting a constraint on something and then having a guest find a loophole to that control and displaying it under your nose? I’d say that’s an insult in itself… Ron, for not having such of a lack of consideration for you, I apologize, and I’ll try to do better next time.

p.s. Mike? How many things on this site are NOT blown out of proportion? lol... I wanted to vent publicly, and did so... people are welcome to come at me tooth and nail if they would like (though I think a resignation is a bit much).

p.p.s"Finally...what member gets what amount of respect? That's easy. Those who respect the site and it's rules and guidelines get the most respect. Thos who don't get the least....period." snort. riiiiight. but that's a whole other thread.  

[This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (07-29-2002 05:58 PM).]

Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 10-13-2000
Posts 906
Oregon (yeah!)


12 posted 07-29-2002 05:33 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor

eek. okay a few more posts were made while I was posting... if I need to address something said in those... will do... just making that clear.

And I find there is: Mikey? No, I didn't wade in obliviously and have the filters disappear lol... there is a way around the filters, I used this in my post as opposed to blanking out one letter in the word, as done previously...

And don't feel guilt... sheesh, you're just doing your job. If I do something wrong, I expect to be called on it, how else can a person learn?

[This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (07-29-2002 05:43 PM).]

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


13 posted 07-29-2002 06:09 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Here is hoping I never get involved in something like this again. Politics tire me; poetry does not.

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


14 posted 07-29-2002 06:19 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

mike - then you're reading the wrong poetry.
quote:
p.p.s"Finally...what member gets what amount of respect? That's easy. Those who respect the site and it's rules and guidelines get the most respect. Thos who don't get the least....period." snort. riiiiight. but that's a whole other thread.
is it saying tooo much if i say nothing at all?
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


15 posted 07-29-2002 07:09 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Thread, I pronounce thee dead. LOL

Said if I only could ...
-KB

 
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