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Passions in Poetry

Let us not offend... Yeah, right... well I'm offended!

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serenity blaze
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25 posted 06-28-2002 01:28 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Mr. Newdow made a very strong point that inclusion of the mention of a diety in a public school curriculum (paid for by ALL citizens of the United States--including atheists) amounted to "coercion"--and as to why the words were added in the first place? That confounds me as well, but as always I take into regard political climate of the TIME. We are speaking of the same political agenda that spawned McCarthyism...

(serenity lights the fuse, and cautiously backs away...)
Opeth
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26 posted 06-28-2002 08:34 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Personally, I couldn't care less if the phrase is removed or stays. My daughter attends public school and recites the Pledge every morning. So what? She knows that I do not believe in any ONE denomination's god and I have explained to her my logic and reason in not believing or confiding in any religious faith.

So she recites, "One nation under God" ~ I couldn't care less. I believe this is all a publicity, money-making, let me have a moment of fame stunt pulled by someone who doesn't have anything else better to do...and it is too bad in this country that people like that get the fame, when countless of other people who deserve it, do not get any recognition at all...but that is a whole other topic.
serenity blaze
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27 posted 06-28-2002 09:27 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Opeth--I thought I felt the same way. But I find it interesting that the passionate reaction of some simply proves the point of Mr. Newdow. It was said that a child could simply choose not to participate in the recitation. Sure. Until they were questioned about why. Just read around the forum a bit, and see the rage displayed by some--and I'm assuming these are rational adults who claim to have a spiritual leaning...I shudder to think of the trauma a child could suffer, not just through peer pressure, but the blatant prejudice of ADULTS entrusted to educate them. Shame.

But you're right on one issue. None of this is very important. The Pledge will stand, as is. And the world will continue to go round. And kids everywhere will continue find a reason to hate the "outsider" kid--and mainstream society will continue on, smug and in denial of their privelage and prejudices.

This WAS very interesting...

now I think I'll go write something.  

Pledge some PEACE good poets.

[This message has been edited by serenity (06-28-2002 09:28 AM).]

Sudhir Iyer
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28 posted 06-28-2002 10:05 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

I am really curious. Actually I find it hilarious that such matters take so much importance, almost like there is nothing more useful to do any more.

Does not reciting those two words make any American un-American?

I am not an American, and I don't care how the pledge is said. In fact even not reciting the pledge is fine by me. To me, it doesn't change any fact in the life of an American to even pledge. Most pledges made are farcical. Most promises are meaningless. So what's the big deal about pledge, under or not under God.

Believe in oneself first, be sure of oneself. By the way "In God we trust" is also the funniest thing I have seen on a man made currency; but then maybe even the entity of God could be argued as man-made...

A passing comment, I guess about a million americans must be busy debating endlessly on this subject, some more vehemently than others... I wonder if half of these could go and help in fire-fighting in and around Arizona, wouldn't that be a better use of the time at hand?

I suppose we should let life be simple.

anyway, my personal opinion...

Regards,
Sudhir
P.S. do they still use the Bible in court rooms before swearing to say the truth?
Sven
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29 posted 06-28-2002 04:50 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

ah yes. . . leave it to my good friend Sudhir to inject a wake-up call into the room. . . well said my friend. . .

--------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Nicole
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30 posted 06-28-2002 05:36 PM       View Profile for Nicole   Email Nicole   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Nicole

I'm surprised at how "new" this seems...

As some of you know, I live in Oregon - I'm 27...graduated high school in 1993.  Our schools stopped saying the Pledge just as I began my Freshman year.  I'm no different (in person or beliefs) now than I was before.  My youngest brother, who is going to turn 17 in a few months never had to memorize it like I did.  He doesn't even know what the words ARE.  (what's ironically funny to me, and not important by any means, but just funny is that out of every person in my family, HE's the one that attended church.)

serenety, I just want to applaud your stance.  Your open-mindedness and the way you present your opinions - it's very refreshing, and inspiring.  More people should learn to exhibit themselves that way.
Nicole
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31 posted 06-28-2002 05:38 PM       View Profile for Nicole   Email Nicole   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Nicole

Damn, I forgot one thing - I remember back when I was 5, there was one time in class when a new student sat during the Pledge.  That's the only time I've ever seen it, and I remember it clearly...the poor thing was chastised by the teacher, and stared at by the whole class.  That's not right.  Not right at all.
serenity blaze
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32 posted 06-29-2002 03:39 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sudhir? oddly enough, I have never been asked to swear an "oath" in court---grin...I HAVE been there, but only as "immoral support!"   But from what I have seen? yes, the Bible was still proffered as establishment of truth. Thank you, luvie...

sometimes we have to step outside ourselves to see...and Nic? thanks...I didn't feel so alone doing that!

[This message has been edited by serenity (06-29-2002 03:50 AM).]

PhaerieChild
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33 posted 06-29-2002 09:55 AM       View Profile for PhaerieChild   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PhaerieChild

Since everyone wants to be so polictically correct maybe the wording should be changed to "Under the God of my choice" that way nobody can snivel. I know that sounds simplicistic but if it keeps everybody from fighting and everybody gets to worship their own God whether Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Satan or whatever then go for it.

There's the man I chose. There's my territory.....Shakira

serenity blaze
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34 posted 06-29-2002 10:09 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

?

Some? do not recognize a GOD/DESS at all...



and THAT is what WE need to recognize...and respect.

[This message has been edited by serenity (06-29-2002 10:15 AM).]

S Arthur Grey
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35 posted 06-29-2002 10:48 AM       View Profile for S Arthur Grey   Email S Arthur Grey   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for S Arthur Grey

P.C. & Others,

How about "none of the above"?  That's a choice too, and one that is no less valid than the rest.
I suppose it is in the nature of "belief" that the believers find it "unbelievable" that anyone could or should live a life that worships no god(s).  
Many believers seem to be proud of their magnanimity in accepting another version of their beliefs but swoon to the floor at the prospect of "no belief".  At that point they are unconscious.
I understand at least some of the reasons why religious practice is important to believers.  So be it.  I don't need it.  I understand life and death well enough to accept both and to fear neither.
    

S Arthur

. . . Hills jump with brooks.
trees tumble out of twigs and sticks;
e e cummings

Marge Tindal
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36 posted 06-29-2002 12:47 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

I recite loyally, attesting to my loyalty to the flag symbol of my country ... inserting -
'to the Maker of MY knowing and understanding'
quote:
'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.'
Perhaps 'indivisible' should be considered for review~

indivisible adj : impossible of undergoing division, "an indivisible union of states", "one nation indivisible"

And then we run into the glaring lie of it all-
'with Liberty and Justice for all.'

lib·er·ty (lbr-t)
n. pl. lib·er·ties

a. The condition of being free from restriction or control.

b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
______________________________________
jus·tice (jsts)
n.
1. The quality of being just, fairness.
2.
a.The principle of moral rightness, equity.
b.Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude, righteousness.

3.The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
________________________________________
all (ôl)
adj.
1. Being or representing the entire or total number, amount, or quantity

~JMLCO

~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
           noles1@totcon.com                       

serenity blaze
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37 posted 06-29-2002 01:21 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Perhaps 'indivisible' should be considered for review~"

you, M'FRIEND, ARE a passion's gem!

roflmao....

love you!

*wish I'd started this thread--so I could end it--HERE* (BEAUTIFUL)

[This message has been edited by serenity (06-29-2002 02:14 PM).]

Marshalzu
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38 posted 06-30-2002 06:13 PM       View Profile for Marshalzu   Email Marshalzu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marshalzu's Home Page   View IP for Marshalzu

When an atheist receits the oath and in particular the words "under god" it should mean nothing to him/her because they do not believe in god therefore receiting those two words is meaningless because there is no god they cannot be a nation "under god".

However

When a christian receits the oath they are confirming in the precence of god that they will honour their obligations as they have stated within the oath.

Now this is obviously just an exercise in attention seeking, he clearly has too much time on his hands, too much money in his wallet and too little sense to realise that this little crusade is dividing a nation at a time that it needs to be drawn together.

Andrew

"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance."

Sun Tzu

Nan
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39 posted 06-30-2002 07:39 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Last I knew, "God" was quite non-sectarian.  I see no allusion to any organized religion in the Pledge of Allegiance.  God can be the Christian God, Buddha, Allah, or any number of sectarian appellations...  Perhaps our atheistic friends could give their "non-God" a name, and everyone would have a point of reference.  Then we could just move on...
Skyfire
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40 posted 07-01-2002 01:25 AM       View Profile for Skyfire   Email Skyfire   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfire

Is he going to try and get the "In God we trust" taken off of your money as well?
Alicat
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41 posted 07-01-2002 11:51 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Closed by request of originating poster.

Alicat
Alley/Lounge Mod
 
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