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Passions in Poetry

Something I had to say....

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rosepetals25
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0 posted 06-09-2002 08:02 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25


     I have this problem.  It deals with a post from the past.  I should have brought it up before, but I didnít for a number of reasons.

     One of the reasons being I do not like conflict.  I know my opinion is not going to be the popular one and some people might not like what I am going to say.  I usually shy away from confrontation.  There arenít to many times I will speak my mind about things, I just let it slide off and just keep my mouth shut.

     Another reason is it involves Napalms Constantly Confused, better known as Dave.  For those of you that know me, know that Dave and I have been dating for over a year now.  I was afraid of looking like the whiney girlfriend.

     I should have done this sooner, and I know that.  I probably shouldnít be bringing this up now.  I have kept quiet about it,  thinking to myself that it is done now, in the past. However, it keeps eating at me.  So, I figure the only way it will stop eating at me is if I just get it off my chest and be done with it.  


This is the post I am talking about : http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum29/HTML/000972.html



     I was shocked when I read the post.  The responses to Daveís post and his comments were down right rude.  I also believe that if some one other than Ron had used the comments Ron used, something would have been said about it.  A lot about that post surprised me.  My viewpoints on the guidelines are now not clear.  The ďspiritĒ of Passions has also become hazy for me.  I feel that Ron was disrespectful.  I also feel that if some else not as well known, or who had as much control, would have made the comments, they would have been corrected about his/her choice of words.  I definitely do not find it any where near fair.

     As I said before, I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me and say that is not true.  I know some people will think it is simply because itís Dave.  I know Iím going to get replies to this I probably wonít agree with.   My purpose for this wasnít to start any kind of arguments or disagreements.  I simply had to get this off my chest.  It was bugging me way too much to be ignored. I had to say something.  

Tara
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1 posted 06-09-2002 08:20 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Tara, I am going to go review the post (though I think I've read it) but first wanted you to know that everyone is entitled to their opinion!! Everyone!


So...I'll go read now.
Balladeer
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2 posted 06-09-2002 11:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OK, Tara, you wanted to post this for the simple reason of getting it off your chest and not to start an argument or controversy. I understand that sometimes we need to do "just that" for our own peace of mind. You have done that so there is really no reason for this conversation to continue then, I would think.
Brad
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3 posted 06-11-2002 02:04 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I have no interest in defending the previous post or Ron or anything that you've been upset by recently. If you read the post in context, it seems obvious that no defense is necessary.

I have an interest in defending disagreement and the 'spirit' of this site.  First and foremost, I see this site as committed to diversity. Now, diversity necessarily means disagreement (I guess this is what you call conflict?). Otherwise, it wouldn't be diverse, would it? When you say that you shy away from conflict, what you tell me is that if people differ from you, you don't want to hear it.

Now, how is that a commitment to the 'spirit' of this site?

Honest agreement is easy, dishonest disagreement is just as easy, dishonest agreement is even easier.

Honest disagreement is difficult.

But honest disagreement while fully maintaining respect is exactly one aspect of Pip as a whole. Sure, some people are going to get heated, some are going to get frustrated, some are going to misunderstand you, and some are going to say things you don't like.

But that doesn't mean the same thing as breaking the 'spirit'. In fact, that we can maintain civility in spite of what goes on is proof that the 'spirit' actually works.

Honestly, I think you're right, I'm not sure you understand this yet, but it's essential for you to understand this in order to understand the 'spirit'.

Everything will start to make a lot more sense.

Brad

Midnitesun
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4 posted 06-11-2002 03:48 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

"some people are going to get heated, some are going to get frustrated, some are going to misunderstand you, and some are going to say things you don't like."
Yes, and some just shake their heads and walk away, scratching their bums and their heads simultaneously without offering any other comment.
OMG, this sounds just like a family!!! And here I always thought maybe mine was  dysfunctional.
Personally, I found the whole thread to be exasperatingly argumentative in nearly every reply. It was like reading a spit and spat family feud. And the topic basically bored me. But that's just me.
I think this site has much to offer, and I love the diversity. I have noticed the penalties for the infringement of 'guidelines' are not always given out equally. Especially as regards to erratic editing of * bleep bleep* phrases, borderline politically incorrect, and 'sexually explicit' content.
But hey, is anyone perfect here?
Sometimes people do seem to cross MY personal  demarcation line into the realm of rudeness in their remarks....but I've only had one occasion where this happened on my post at this site, but it happened several times at another site.
My 14 year old has a completely different set of 'rudeness' parameters than mine, and she sometimes laughs when I say someone was rude.
Am I getting old? Is her generation more tolerant of rudeness? Are the lines being re-drawn?  
I'm sure I'm rambling now, but please forgive me, it's getting late. I really just 'popped in' for a quick read, and this thread caught my eye.
I don't like name calling and personal attacks under any circumstances ( although I did catch myself doing that at least once in my life). I try hard to avoid reacting and responding to them, which is what I think Tara meant when she said she didn't like conflict.
I also hate animal abuse as much as people abuse, guns, fighting, and war in general. Unless of course, I'm pretty damn sure I'm on the right (or is it left?) side, in which case, facts are irrelevent and can be ignored, for only opinion and feelings matter. Is that an example of self-righteous indignation??
(The advocate never sleeps. )

[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (06-11-2002 04:05 AM).]

Larry C
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5 posted 06-11-2002 12:38 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Tara,
I'm with Balladeer. At least you got it off your chest.
Ladycat
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6 posted 06-11-2002 01:19 PM       View Profile for Ladycat   Email Ladycat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ladycat's Home Page   View IP for Ladycat

Yea, I'm with Balladeer too.  I don't want anything like that going any futher.  I do hope that talking about it helped you feel better though.

Love,
Ladycat

Live in my world just once and you'll find yourself enraptured.

Phaedrus
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7 posted 06-11-2002 03:37 PM       View Profile for Phaedrus   Email Phaedrus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Phaedrus


My opinion may be slightly biased as I replied to the original thread but here it is anyway.

I think Dave laid the sarcastic foundations and Ron and Christopher replied in kind, no party seemed to push it too far and it all ended fairly amicably.

Or did I miss something?

Thanks for the chance to read and reply.
rosepetals25
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8 posted 06-12-2002 05:41 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

Thank you everyone for letting me vent. I appreciate it.

And Brad.. there is one thing I do have to say.  I do not shy away from diversity. I never have.  I want to learn about people, and you can't do that without diversity.  

However, setting rules you expect people to follow, and then making an exception for yourself.....  that is something I can't condone.  

Tara
Phaedrus
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9 posted 06-12-2002 06:52 PM       View Profile for Phaedrus   Email Phaedrus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Phaedrus

quote:
However, setting rules you expect people to follow, and then making an exception for yourself..... that is something I can't condone.


Tara


It seems you're stuck firmly in the horns of a rather nasty moral dilemma, you say you canít condone Ronís actions but your participation in these forums would seem to lend at least tacit agreement to the way in which they are run. The alternative, to follow the prerogative of your principles, would be to cease participation in a forum that was run by a person whose actions you canít condone. Or are you suggesting that Ron should apologise for your perceived imperfections in the way he replied? Or perhaps he should close the forums to avoid the possibility of upsetting people in the future?

Personally I believe Ron acted with a lot of restraint, the only reason Dave was around to post the thread in question in the first place is due entirely to the tolerance of the person whose actions you Ďcanít condoneí and whom you believe replied in a rude manner. People who show respect generally receive the same, in the same way people who reply in a condescending manner and with sarcasm canít really complain when the tables are turned.


These are of course only my opinions which people keep telling me Iím entitled to.  

Thanks again (Ron) for the chance to read and reply.

[This message has been edited by Phaedrus (06-12-2002 06:54 PM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


10 posted 06-12-2002 08:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Tara,

But you have to accept that different forums, that different moderators, will apply those guidelines in different ways.

It has to be that way if the more 'conflict' oriented forums are to work at all (and Dave's post was originally posted in the Alley, was it not?).

What I see then is not an injustice but a misreading of the guidelines because of a perceived injustice -- a perceived injustice because you've ripped the context to shreds by applying a 'rule' indiscriminately.  Yet, if you understand how certain of these forums work, you'll see that I could have said what Ron said, you could have said what Ron said, anybody could have said what Ron said.

In the context.

The only alternative is silence and that defeats the whole point of debate. Further, if we were to follow your strict interpretation, a number of what I think were very productive discussions would have to be deleted.

I don't want to do that.

If I can share a quick anecdote:

As I'm sure you know, I live in Korea. Now, Koreans have a strong sense of injustice (albeit not all of it perceived) -- the word 'han' is used to describe this. Unfortunately, this sometimes makes them go to rather absurd extremes. On Monday, Korea played America in the World Cup. On Korea's first goal by Ahn Chong Hwan, he proceeded to imitate a short track skater in obvious reference to the Winter Olympics controversey regarding Apollo Ono.

The Korean crowd, during the replays, applauded this stunt even more than they applauded the goal.

While I think the absurdity is fairly obvious, two points particularly stand out:

1. It was a Canadian referee that gave Ono the win, not an American.

2. It was far from clear at that point, what significance that goal would have. As it turned out, it was the tying one but as I keep reminding Koreans, tying and winning are two different things.

Koreans feel they have been vindicated, but the rest of us just shrugged our shoulders and looked around quizzically.

I don't mean to say that you sound as absurd as that of course, I do mean to point out that crazy things can result from a feeling outside of a context.

Thanks,
Brad

[This message has been edited by Brad (06-12-2002 08:36 PM).]

rosepetals25
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11 posted 06-12-2002 10:19 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

Thank both of you for your opinions.  

I think the smartest thing for me to do, even though I could definately, carry this out further, is to just let this topic rest and attempt to accept it and move on so I can continue to enjoy time here.

Tara
Phaedrus
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12 posted 06-13-2002 05:08 PM       View Profile for Phaedrus   Email Phaedrus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Phaedrus

quote:
tying and winning are two different things.


Brad

If my calculations are correct tying and winning amount to the same thing for the USA in the next match, either result means they go through to next round. (They could also lose and still mathematically go through on goal difference).

If they top the group they play Italy and if they finish second their opponents in the knockout phase will be Mexico.

"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that!"
Bill Shankly, manager

[This message has been edited by Phaedrus (06-13-2002 05:09 PM).]

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


13 posted 06-13-2002 07:18 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Here are the possibilities:
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/en/020611/2/wts.html

The Korean/American tie combined with Poland's lackluster performance created this (and good old fashioned American luck).
 
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