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Passions in Poetry

Respect my Country NOW

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Jenn Cirrincione
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25 posted 05-03-2002 08:54 AM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

Excuse me, but I took most of those insults straight out of her "tirade". Trust me, they're there. I was simply trying to offer a different opinion on things, not "Canada bashing". If that were the case I'd start off MY tirade in some fashion about how "Some particular Canadians" appear to be. They appear to be snotty, pretentious, stuck-up, and for being so proud of their country, some of them want to seperate off on their own. Mind you this is "some particular Canadians" and not the country in and of itself.

I visited Montreal/Quebec and I have reason to believe that there are snotty, pretentious people there. The hotel service was terrible, we had to practically get on our knees and beg to get clean towels or...well- basically to get anything at all. The roadways were built in such a way it was very confusing, and hard to get around- and it wasn't the most pleasant trip. However, as I said before, that was one area of the country, and I'm sure some parts of America aren't all peaceful and friendly either.

I'm trying to be fair here, and I'm sorry you feel this way about America. But if America stopped being helpful and contributing it's funds and armed forces to all the countries, you might be singing a different tune. Do you think we like sending our troops overseas? Those are our fathers, husbands and sons. We send them to protect our land and to help others.

How about we do a bit of a turn around on this...

RESPECT MY COUNTRY NOW.

Thank you.


"I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about."

Interloper
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26 posted 05-03-2002 09:27 AM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Sherry,

With all due respect, you should check your facts before you speak.

We have a Communist party here in the USA and have had for many years.

We were asked into Vietnam by its govenment and we had to honor our membership in SEATO.  You probably never heard of SEATO.  I know you have heard of NATO.  Well, SEATO is the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization.  If nothing else, we honor our Worldwide  commitments.

I always thought of our countries really being one people separated by an invisible line seen only on a map.  Now, however, I am beginning to believe that you want me to believe all Canadians hate all Americans and that all Americans are jerks.  I don't believe any of that for one second!


Sharon,

Both you and your country have class ... and a lot of it.  God bless you.  God bless Canada.  God Bless America.


Jenn,

I might add that they would be singing that tune in a different language (like Japanese or German).  But nobody really wants to be reminded of that, do they?


[This message has been edited by Interloper (05-03-2002 09:38 AM).]

Magicmystery
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27 posted 05-03-2002 10:08 AM       View Profile for Magicmystery   Email Magicmystery   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Magicmystery's Home Page   View IP for Magicmystery

Alright, once more around the track... Time for me to eat some major crow. First, Jenn, I cannot Quebec bash (it is still a part of Canada whether it wants to be or not) but I can understand why you had such a rotten time there. Parlez Vous Francais? Me neither!!! and I can say that although Canada is bilingual most of its people are not. Nuff said. Come see Ontario next time LOL.

Sharon, I SHOULD check the facts before I speak. Too much of what I say seems influenced by that giant of a media you guys got. Now I understand you were invited into that mess of a conflict (I used to date a Marine that spent a tour over there) but what a mess.  It was the first time a conflict like this had so much television coverage and I don't think the average viewer was ready for what they saw. And there are veterans still trying to sort out their lives in its aftermath.

I know that we are neighbours and friends, I just know also that Canadians (those who have a sense of national identity) feel their individuality as a nation is diminished by having such a giant standing next to us.

God bless us all!!!
Love, Light and Peace,

Sherry

Cherish the good memories past and look forward to the adventure called Tomorrow.
But above all... be kind to yourself today.

Honeybee
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28 posted 05-03-2002 11:03 AM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee


Wowzers!  The last thing I wanted was for anyone to get their knickers in a knot
Then again, when I posted this reply I assumed that a select few would get their feathers ruffled!  But, I took that chance because I KNEW that Canadians had every right to be offended and unfortnately, sometimes stereotypes are inevitable.  I'm sure many of you know already that I loathe preconceived notions and stereotypes, but, yes, human that I am, even I succumb to this.  But, I do stand behind my "rant," and I am very proud that I am Canadian.  I'm also proud to have many americans as friends too.

Interloper, you are a very intelligent and classy man I loved your original reply and those following for the most part   Rest assured, I know what you are saying and I am almost positive that you understand that I was angry and that this is nothing personal against you

Jenn, well, I really have no comment for you.  I recall maybe over a year ago that you had a thread bashing Canada because of your poor experience in Quebec, I put you in your place then.  However, I do agree with you in regards to the poor attitude and service in Quebec.  My friends and I travelled there and I was so disgusted with how they treated 'english' speaking people.  Montreal and Quebec are like night and day.  I was impressed with the kind people from Montreal, they treated us with respect, but, yes, Quebeckers are like New Yorkers - a class all their own.

I'm not sure if I'm going to reply anymore to this thread because the way I see it, this rant was long ago over, there's really no need to rehash it all over and over again like a broken record.

P.S. Woo hoo for Mysteria and Sherry

take care all~

"Poetry is not an opinion expressed...
it is a song that rises from a bleeding
wound...or a smiling mouth"

~Kahlil Gibran~

Jenn Cirrincione
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29 posted 05-03-2002 07:12 PM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

Mellissa:
Ahhh, I see, you put me in my place. Why yes you did... And then you decided to be hypocritical and bash America with YOUR small amount of knowledge of two areas.


I'm sorry a hockey game went a little haywire. But I have admitted that I generalized a bit much after my vacation, how about you checking yourself and do the same. There is a difference between being patriotic and being downright rude towards others.

Sherry- Yes, I'm sorry to have ever judged the entire country on the basis of one area. I learned a little French in school but not much, and the attitudes there amaze me.

Anyway, all's well that ends well.
Some things just aren't worth driving into the ground. Everyone can have their opinion I suppose.

"I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about."

Marshalzu
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30 posted 05-03-2002 08:00 PM       View Profile for Marshalzu   Email Marshalzu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marshalzu's Home Page   View IP for Marshalzu

Personally I am sick of American Interference in the policies of independant states, the intereference in global policy of Iraq, Israel and In Afghanistan is shocking, not to mention the intereferance of America in Cuba, Vietnam and Korea. It is because of this intereferance that America is in the current state and it has no one but it's self to blame. For the few countries that actually support America like Canada and the U.K, it is an insult to find that the lives of our citizens are taken so lightly by a nation that can not commit to a cause (that may well be misguided by a poor president) but which is justified by the loss of life but also by the evidence of the conflict of human rights (IS AMERICA UNWILLING TO SACRIFICE SOME OF THE 250 MILLION POPULATION FOR A WORTHY CAUSE?, BECAUSE IT SEEMS SO TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE NOT BEEN BRAINWASHED BY AMERICAN PROPAGANDA) or is it a case of America is too important to sacrifice it's citizens, whilst the U.K and Canada (THE COUNTRIES WITH HONOUR AND VIRTUE) are too small to complain.

Andrew

Tell all your friends, your neighbours too, CNN, BBC World News, tell all your friends about Mr Zu

Honeybee
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31 posted 05-03-2002 08:35 PM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee


Jenn, with your comment in regards to me being hypocritical, that just makes me even more proud to be Canadian and even more satisfied with myself that I was brave enough to post this thread in the beginning.
I'm not hyprocritical at all, because I would never ever boo during the 'Star Spangled Banner,' I would show respect!

Trust me when I say that this was a big issue, it was all over Canadian news and Canadian newspapers, and was even featured in USA today and was broadcasted on a few American programs as well. I have friends around the world, and some of them heard about it in their countries as well.  This was big!  For the most part, many Americans were completely understanding of how Canadians felt and these astute Americans, although innocent, were sorry and a bit ashamed of how the New Yorkers and Detriot citizens acted.

Jenn, you just don't like the fact that Canadians were thoroughly appauled by *certain* (not all) Americans.  
From your reply this is how it appears. But, of course, if you feel this is not true, correct me.  I would never want to put words in anyone's mouth.
If you choose feel free to email me to settle this on amicable terms.

Canadians are known around the world as peacekeepers, but, for some reason when a Canadian or many Canadians rightfully defend themselves, it seems that SOME (not all) americans are shocked and think "how dare they, you can't do this to me I'm an American."  Puh-leeease!  Note that I said some, not all.  And I truely mean that.

And that above comment was not towards any other American who replied, it was merely towards you Jenn, as I was very happy with and understanding of their comments - good or bad.

How about we just agree to disagree.  The end.


"Poetry is not an opinion expressed...
it is a song that rises from a bleeding
wound...or a smiling mouth"

~Kahlil Gibran~



[This message has been edited by Melissa Honeybee (05-03-2002 08:40 PM).]

Jenn Cirrincione
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32 posted 05-03-2002 08:42 PM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

As I said in the reply above... I was dropping it. Judge me and my opinion all you like. You have a major chip on your shoulder, and I'm sorry you feel the way that you do. Oh well, it happens I suppose.
Godspeed my dear, Canadian or American it really doesn't matter in the long run.

"I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about."

Honeybee
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33 posted 05-03-2002 08:49 PM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee


Yes, it does matter I Am 100% proud Canadian forever!

But, thank you Jenn, I'm sure all will be well now

"Poetry is not an opinion expressed...
it is a song that rises from a bleeding
wound...or a smiling mouth"

~Kahlil Gibran~

Jenn Cirrincione
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34 posted 05-03-2002 08:56 PM       View Profile for Jenn Cirrincione   Email Jenn Cirrincione   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jenn Cirrincione

What I meant by that was in the end, when all is done with and everyone's soul is what remains- nationality won't really matter. We are all human beings. We are all people.
Canadian, British, Irish- all of us. And  99.9% of us Americans are a melting pot of many other places anyway. Unless they are Native American. Anyway, I'm tired, I just wanted to clear that statement up.

"I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about."

Honeybee
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35 posted 05-03-2002 08:59 PM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee


Okay, fair enough, well said then.

Take care~

"Poetry is not an opinion expressed...
it is a song that rises from a bleeding
wound...or a smiling mouth"

~Kahlil Gibran~

Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


36 posted 05-04-2002 01:10 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

The funniest thing is that you CAN tell the difference. An American friend saw a Canadian buddy of mine walk up to us and before he said anything, she said, "He's Canadian."

I think that's a good thing.

This isn't to say that some Americans don't act like Canadians and some Canadians don't act like Americans. They do. It simply means that our different cultures manifest themselves in everyday life. What's wrong with that?

On another note, would the world be a lesser place without Canada?

Jokes aside, I think most of us can answer in the affirmative.

Americans need Canada.
LCBS
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37 posted 05-04-2002 06:44 PM       View Profile for LCBS   Email LCBS   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LCBS

Ok, apart from any stereotypical people, I have something to say about America and New York


If anyone follows basketball:

I was at the UConn vs. St Johns game at Madison Square Garden...well New Yorkers are big St. Johns fans and We are from CT, so we love UConn....well anyway....back to the story...

It was after September 11th, and still, during our national anthem...they started screaming "UConn Sucks!"  Now dont be upset that they did that to Canada....cause thy do it to the US too....

~Lisa
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38 posted 05-05-2002 11:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have tried so hard to avoid this thread but I just can't..

Melissa, believe me, I understand your feelings about this matter completely. If a foreigner were to boo or disgrace my flag in public, I would also be irate. I also know you well enough to know that your displeasure was solely against those who commited that act.

Your choice of words in saying "Canada as well as the rest of the world will not tolerate your global bullying and arrogance anymore." is unfortunate. There you went from personal to national. I haven't bullied anyone lately that I know of...perhaps until now . Were you referring the the booers of the flag with that statement whose arrogance and bullying the world will not tolerate anymore? No, you were referring to America, sadly, and I am America so it uncludes me, too. I know you didn't mean it that way but there it is and it is understandable that it could ruffle a feather or two. If I were to make a statement about something that the world would not tolerate anymore from Canada I'm sure it would not be appreciated by any Canadian, not should it be. Your heart is not wrong...your choice of words is.


Marshalzu....you have no such excuse. You simply are what you are. There is no American that I know who cares in the slightest what you are sick of. From a country that has undoubtedly the bloodiest history in the world it is astounding that you would refer to Cuba, Vietnam and Korea. Does India, Arabia, South Africa and every other country that Britain tried to rule by ruthlessness ring a bell in that narrow mind? Does Ireland ring a bell? We are interfering in the global policies of Iraq and Afghanistan? What a shame. How good do you think you would look in a turban? You refer to Vietnam? What can you possibly know about Vietnam except for what the publishers of the newspapers want you to know? Were you there? I was and have the right to discuss it. What gives you the right to pass judgement? You say America has no one else to blame? Last time I looked we weren't trying to blame anyone else. You want to make references to our president while you bow to a royal family that does nothing more than produce unending fodder for sleazy magazines?

I can accept all of these ridiculous comments as simply being from from some small-minded individual who gets a kick from bashing America but then you have to say...IS AMERICA UNWILLING TO SACRIFICE SOME OF THE 250 MILLION POPULATION FOR A WORTHY CAUSE?

That is the most pathetic statement I have ever heard in my life. Allow me to suggest you check history and count up how many Americans have sacrificed their lives over the years and the majority of it for OTHER countries, the rights of OTHER people to live free. Believe me, I would almost like to be president for a day, call all our soldiers home, eliminate aid to any country who badmouths us and sit back and wait for people like you to beg us to come back.

It gives you pleasure to sit there and be the spokesman for the world in telling America what you are sick of and won't stand for any longer? Be my guest. That's your right....a right you wouldn't have had without the assistance of the country you insult. Revel in your honor and virtue and go watch reruns of Lawrence of Arabia and Gunga Din. Take in a pleasant soccer game for a relaxing evening.

   Unlike you, I have no problem with countries. I am proud to have many English friends, having lived there for a time, and I respect the UK greatly. My problem is with people like you who appoint themselves as being arrogant enough to insult and chastize an entire country based on their own lacking interpretation of history.

Ya see why I've tried to avoid this thread?

Have a nice day....
Honeybee
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since 12-26-1999
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Ontario, CANADA


39 posted 05-05-2002 12:27 PM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee


Thankies m'Deer for giving me your second opinion. Hey I asked for it, didn't I?          I understand what you are saying, I agree and I appreciate your friendship and honesty       That makes you a class act indeed   Hopefully all will understand that my rant was merely towards those who disrespected Canada's natonal anthem.

Melissa~


"Poetry is not an opinion expressed...
it is a song that rises from a bleeding
wound...or a smiling mouth"

~Kahlil Gibran~

[This message has been edited by Melissa Honeybee (05-05-2002 12:46 PM).]

Phaedrus
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40 posted 05-05-2002 02:13 PM       View Profile for Phaedrus   Email Phaedrus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Phaedrus

I suppose being British this is the point where I’m supposed to come over all patriotic and rush to the defence of my Queen and country by rolling out some examples of global wrong-doings but quite frankly I can’t be bothered.

Britain has done things wrong in the past, so has America, so has Canada and all the other countries anyone cares to mention, comparing mistakes in a mad rush to attain the moral high ground is plain silly, or as Deer pointed out “small minded”.

Anyone who cares to boo the British national anthem in my presence please feel free, if you want to burn the Union Jack be my guest, at the end of the day it’s only sticks and stones that can really hurt you.

[This message has been edited by Phaedrus (05-05-2002 02:16 PM).]

Mysteria
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41 posted 05-05-2002 02:42 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

You know what they say right, "Stuff happens!" and it happened at that game, that's all.  Even my comment in here got twisted, into like I was picking a side, which I never do.  I was simply waving my flag for "my country".  I just spent almost a month in the States and laughed the entire time I was being made fun of that I had an accent, did I live in an igloo, do moose run loose, etc. and in fact, I thought everyone there had an accent!   By the way when I arrived at my first destination, both flags were waving to greet guests. I think words are always open to interpretation, and when it comes to being patriotic I like to look into someone's eyes while I speak of this topic.  Let me say this, while I was in the States, I loved seeing all the flags flying since September 11th, but what you don't see up here is we have them flying for you all too!  You can turn what happened at a hockey game into a major issue and start going off on so many tracks, but when push comes to shove, Canada is a peace-keeping nation who also happens to be your neighbour, so as neighbours I want to see us all get along, but that's just me.  I think booing anyone is just poor sportsmanship, and wrong, but it is over and done with, but doesn't make it right.  I hope this thread can end in a peaceful discussion, as I think we can all discuss an issue without using a poetry site as a "bashing" board right?  Oh, and by the way, when I went to Montreal I had a hard time getting room service and clean towels too, so now I carry my own.     Peace.

~* ~ Carpe' Diem ~*~
What if tomorrow never comes?


[This message has been edited by Mysteria (05-05-2002 02:55 PM).]

Balladeer
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42 posted 05-05-2002 05:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Phaedrus, of course you are exactly right. Every nation has its good and bad and all are basically made of of individuals like you and I who, in the long run, have little to say concerning the workings and decision-making of our governments. I think that if you were to take all the nations in the world and put them in one room, lock out the politicians and spiritual leaders, everyone would get along just fine. I suppose it was just the words that "America refuses to sacrifice..." that set off my tirade. I've known a lot of servicemen - and a lot of them are dead now - who would have preferred to be alive but went willingly to either help defend other countries or the freedoms of other peoples. There are billions of dollars each year sent around the world to aid those in need that could certainly be used here. Perhaps, then, you can understand how words like that don't set well. I was assigned for three years to the Royal Canadien Air Force and had never met a finer group of people and during my stay in England I fell in love with the people, the beauty, the history and tradition of that country. To speak against an entire country is foolish. In the end we are all just normal people trying to live our lives in the happiest way possible without depriving anyone else of the right to do the same....

Mysteria...Sure, of course it was a distasteful act described by Melissa and I understand and agree with her fury and especially in her adamance in stating love for her country. That's the way it should be. Have this come to a peaceful conclusion?

Hey, Mysteria...

This is THE ALLEY!!
Marshalzu
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43 posted 05-05-2002 07:55 PM       View Profile for Marshalzu   Email Marshalzu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marshalzu's Home Page   View IP for Marshalzu

“it is astounding that you would refer to Cuba, Vietnam and Korea" It is? I thought these were pretty good examples of American interference in state politics on a global scale, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the wars in Korea and Vietnam were (under whatever guise) supported by America, not only that but so was the failed rebellion against Fidel Castro. So not only does America intervene in state politics but it also fails to actually complete its objectives in doing so. The
"Does India, Arabia, South Africa and every other country that Britain tried to rule by ruthlessness ring a bell in that narrow mind?" Oh yes they ring a bell, I believe that India and South Africa (and parts of Arabia) are part of the Old Empire and the new Commonwealth, I do sincerely hope that you are not trying to justify the current situation by saying that just because the British have committed several acts indiscretion in the past (bearing in mind what you have quoted are late 19th Century, early 20th Century, where as the instances I have quoted are all in the latter half of the 20th Century and early 21st. I'm not saying that Britain has always carried itself impeccably and yes there have been instances of ruthlessness but there have also been instances where Britain has stood against all odds pretty much by itself (See WW1 and WW2) waiting for our brothers across the Atlantic to mobilise their war machine and fight against the armies that would have eventually threatened the U.S.
“Does Ireland ring a bell?” yes it does, not only did we give Southern Ireland independence we have suffered for it for the last century or so, the terrorist activities in Northern Ireland are internal politics of our nation in the same way that Hawaii is several hundred miles from America and subject to it’s policies Ireland is less than a hundred miles away from England and has been a part of the UK for over two hundred years, now tell me that England does not have a right to defend it’s citizens against terrorists, especially on it’s own soil.
“We are interfering in the global policies of Iraq and Afghanistan?” I would have thought so since America has already invaded Afghanistan and Iraq (Gulf War) and plans to invade Iraq again they have replaced the Taliban and seek to replace Saddam Hussain with a more U.S friendly government, although these governments were hardly brought to power by democratic means (I’m not saying this is necessarily a bad thing) they were in power and generally accepted (unless you have evidence of an active resistance against these governments and to be honest the Northern Alliance a group of Warlords who want power from themselves is hardly a resistance or an alternative in my opinion).
“What a shame. How good do you think you would look in a turban?” I am wondering how such a situation would come about? Is Iraq and Afghanistan about to create an alliance and decide to attack the United Kingdom? And is America the only nation willing to come to our defence? I think not. Or is it that you think that America is the only nation that is capable of taking down Iraq? As I believe the current performance of American troops and history proves that America cannot even do that but never mind, I’m sure Britain, France, Germany, Canada, Australia and the rest of the world that wants to keep cosy relationships with the U.S will be willing to send in some real troops to take care of the enemy.
“You refer to Vietnam? What can you possibly know about Vietnam except for what the publishers of the newspapers want you to know? Were you there? I was and have the right to discuss it. What gives you the right to pass judgement?” Are you therefore saying that unless I am a combat veteran I have no right to discuss the implications of U.S military action, no in fact what you are saying is that I am a combat veteran of Vietnam I have no right to discuss the implications of that war, at the very least as historian and a political commentator I would like to express my right to comment on what I do know about which is the political, social and economic factors.
“You say America has no one else to blame?” you are absolutely correct, America has no one but it’s self to blame for the atrocities of September 11th, it’s intervention in Iraq was motivated primarily by oil, Osama Bin Laden did not launch this campaign for no reason, although his reasons may not seem legitimate to the majority of the western world I can at least see some sort of semblance of a defence of his actions, but having said that as a millionaire he should have had more intelligence to make his anger known in a more civil and respectable way.
“Last time I looked we weren't trying to blame anyone else” No but few Americans seem to realise that America is to blame for these events and they certainly aren’t fond of apologising for their mistakes.
“You want to make references to our president while you bow to a royal family that does nothing more than produce unending fodder for sleazy magazines?” Excuse me but I cannot see the comparison, the Royal family of the U.K is pretty much for all intensive purposes a ceremonial figurehead, if you wanted an accurate comparison I would have chosen the Prime Minister as he is much nearer to George Bush (in power) than any member of the royal family, but besides that I would like to see some evidence of this “fodder for sleazy magazines” because as far as I know, The Duchess of York, Princess Diana, The Duke and Duchess of Wessex are the only royals that have been written about in “sleazy magazines” and they have pretty much shunned from royal circles (both Princess Diana and the Duchess of York were not considered royalty after their divorces).

”I can accept all of these ridiculous comments as simply being from some small-minded individual who gets a kick from bashing America but then you have to say...IS AMERICA UNWILLING TO SACRIFICE SOME OF THE 250 MILLION POPULATION FOR A WORTHY CAUSE? That is the most pathetic statement I have ever heard in my life. Allow me to suggest you check history and count up how many Americans have sacrificed their lives over the years and the majority of it for OTHER countries, the rights of OTHER people to live free.”
Excuse me, I did not say that America has not sacrificed many of its young men’s lives in the past, what I am saying is that British Troops are fighting in Afghanistan against an enemy who should have been easily defeated in the first few days of the “War On Terror” if there had been a concerted effort to actually attack the Taliban and Al Queda instead of using the Northern Alliance to do the job. Apart from this fact there is the fact that the U.K suffered through two years of war  (WW2) without the help of America at a time, when we needed it most, we struggled on barely defending ourselves against Japan in the far east and Germany and Italy in the west, we stood up to several months of continued battering and it was not until Japan actually destroyed the Pacific fleet that America actually woke to the reality that it was involved in the war. America only gets involved in a conflict if it is provoked or it has a vested interest in the outcome, so yes I will check history and yes I will find that America has sacrificed the lives of many men for other countries but only to preserve it’s dominance and it’s interests.
“Believe me, I would almost like to be president for a day, call all our soldiers home, eliminate aid to any country who badmouths us and sit back and wait for people like you to beg us to come back.” I await that day with baited breath, because you can be sure that the U.K will not come crawling across the Atlantic for aid. Oh and if this did happen could I refuse to recognise the independence of the 13 Colonies? and expect to see them paying taxes again?
“That's your right…a right you wouldn't have had without the assistance of the country you insult.” I hope I understand you right, but if I don’t please forgive me, I believe you are saying that America has protected British interests, when? Your help in defending Britain in WW2 came too late and I surely don’t think that you believe that Germany could have mounted a successful invasion after the Battle of Britain, so I’m not sure what you mean to be honest.
“ My problem is with people like you who appoint themselves as being arrogant enough to insult and chastize an entire country based on their own lacking interpretation of history” I have a lacking interpretation of history? First I’ve been told, I read history for fun and did it at A-level, I attend a history society but I mostly concentrate on 19th Century history, so yeah of course my interpretation of history does lack in the essential areas of American history because that whenever I read American history books I am shocked find such one sided view points and such blatant propaganda. I have no problem with American’s, I do have a problem with American foreign policy and those that advocate it.

Marshal Zu
Balladeer
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44 posted 05-05-2002 08:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"America has no one but it’s self to blame for the atrocities of September 11th"

At that sentence I stopped reading and have no further interest in discussion with you.
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


45 posted 05-05-2002 08:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I thought this was interesting.
http://www.vwam.com/vets/canadians.html

"Although pressured by U.S. President Lyndon Johnson to become part of the "Free World Military Forces" (Australia, New Zealand, the Republic of Korea, the Republic of the Philippines, Taiwan and the Kingdom of Thailand) which provided combat troops to aid South Vietnam, the Canadian cabinet believed that because of its ICC membership Canada had to remain its impartiality.
But while Canada as a nation was not involved, Canadians themselves formed the largest foreign contingent in the U.S. military during the Vietnam era. Some estimate that their numbers far suppressed the more than 30,000 Americans draft dodgers who fled to Canada to avoid military service during the war. While exact numbers are impossible to obtain, from my work as a military historian with the Canadian War Museum, I estimate that of the many thousands who served in the U.S. Vietnam-era military, some 12,00 Canadians actually served in Vietnam itself."
--from the text

Marshal zu,

I agree with much of what you said, but be careful when arguing that 911 was America's fault. Compare the reaction to the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen. A distinction can and should be made between these two acts of terrorism. Neither is justified of course but the risks of military service are clear.  The outrage of Americans is the result, I think, of Balladeer's point. We have a tendency to separate peoples and governments. Others don't.

Unfortunately or fortunately, we also have a constitution and a tradition that backs those others up. I've never been able to see how people square these two issues.  

More later,
Brad

PS History rarely proves or disproves one side of the other in politics. It does have a tendency to muddy up the argument. I like that. It's a tricky ally and will ofen turn on you when you are at your most confident.

[This message has been edited by Brad (05-05-2002 09:12 PM).]

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


46 posted 05-05-2002 09:08 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

As far as Vietnam is concerned, here's another thread:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/vntoc.html

Concentrate on the first and second Indochina wars and you'll see it's a little more difficult than simply being asked to help out a friend. The very legitimacy of the Republic of Vietnam was in question.
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


47 posted 05-06-2002 01:16 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

The Alley is a place for rants, rages, diatribes, and the like. And this is good. It's a place for disagreements. And this is also good. This thread has met this criteria. However, it also contained personal attacks. This is not good.

So:

Due to violations of our philosophy of Respect and Tolerance, and due to this forum's rule infringement regarding personal attacks, this thread is hereby closed. Feel free to open another thread if the participants can keep things civil.

Alicat
Alley/Lounge Moderator
 
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