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Passions in Poetry

Out on a limb...

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serenity blaze
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0 posted 02-19-2002 12:56 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay, okay, I know everyone means well. But once again, I find myself scratching my head, at replies of encouragement, that urge me to seek "HIM." Perhaps it's a quibble, but I think my beliefs and religious inclinations are well-known enough, that such reminders are actually becoming, in my perception, the "back-handed" solicitation. Sigh...and I do know that there are others, that have found this to be slightly annoying to say the least. I don't think of this as being hyper-sensitive. I do not mind the good wishes and prayers from any perspective of good intent--be it Allah, Buddha, or Goddess or Christ. But the persistance of some is starting to work my nerves. Do you know how many Christmas cards I got reminding me to "keep Christ in my Christmas?" as if I couldn't find the root word there? Did I remind anyone to keep fire in their solstice?
Grumbling a bit...sorry...(serentiy exits, muttering to herself)
Allan Riverwood
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1 posted 02-19-2002 01:55 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

(Allan enters, an inquisitive finger raised, and hands Serenity a ginger snap and a glass of milk)

Hey, I know where you're coming from, babe... and I know how difficult it is to have to be subject to such demeaning treatment.  I'm sick and tired of people comforting me with things that they know are not my beliefs, but still rub into me constantly.  

And you're right, it even occurs right here in Passions in Poetry.  I remember one reply I recieved didn't mention much about my poem, rather it congratulated me on being a good Christian (funny, isn't it?  The first Atheist to be a good Christian).

You know, Serenity... I can't offer you much in the way of advice.  I have kind of an "insensitive" coping philosophy:  Be amused, not annoyed.  It doesn't just work for these instances of Christians constantly reminding us that Big ol' JC is pulling for us... it actually works for any situation that would otherwise make you feel uncomfortable.

Although I agree that you shouldn't have to tolerate such comments if they are unwelcome... the most that you can do is make it well-known that such comments are unwelcome to begin with (which you're doing here!  nice work).  

And to everyone else reading this... please think before you try and give someone divine guidance.  It's not always appreciated by the "unsaved" parties...

Thanks for bringing it up, Serenity.  Something I feel quite strongly about.

Don't think you're alone.  

~Allan

[This message has been edited by Allan Riverwood (02-19-2002 01:56 AM).]

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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2 posted 02-19-2002 01:34 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Allan, I love gingersnaps and milk.
and yes, I agree with your philosophy, normally. It just got to be a bit maddening. I feel better now. So...blessed be!
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


3 posted 02-19-2002 02:53 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

it amazes me how people can continue to try to  push their beliefs on others when it is so clear to me that by doing so, they push others farther and farther away from even taking a look at various religions with an open mind.

if people really want other people to consider their faith as truth and explore it since they truly believe it holds answers and solace, then the best advertisement they have is their own lives.

i frankly find it very disconcerting to be told by anyone that the way they believe offers the only true answers to life's struggles and journey ....and believe me, Christians are not the only group who profess this... this type of rhetoric is prevelant in many groups, from eastern religions such as  Buddhism to western religions such as Mormonism and 7-Day Adventists.

If people really want others to listen to the tenets of their faith, the best way to go about it is to simply live their lives in their own communities and among their own family members and friends, showing that their lives reflect the value of their faith, both in their character and the way they handle struggles in their lives and deal with other people.

When people preach to others, trying to convert or convince them to believe the way they do, ESPECIALLY if their lives reflect less than positively back on their faith, it is like watching a poorly produced ad on TV for a product you're not interested in.... the louder it gets, the more likely you are to turn the channel.

------------>
thanks, serene-one... i needed to vent today.... later, i'll be back to write a little gripe on an entirely  different subject about my take on fakes, phoneys, frauds, pathologocial liars, and manipulators if i ever can uncross my eyes (i bolded that because i didn't want anyone to think i was referring to this same topic about religious tenets... text is so much fun.. i need to be clear because this is the internet and text is all we have  and i'm rambling again) ..... lol... a little plug...go ahead, change the station..     oh and btw, you may not know this but my faith is Christian, but i'm certainly not going to push it on you or anybody else but i would also like to encourage you to be just like me and be open minded to discover the value in all spiritual quests and faiths because i gaurantee you, you won't be sorry...!!! rofl.. hehe... geesh... but anyway, you don't have to if you don't want to ... rofl.. and you don't have to read my upcoming rant, either, because i trust you will make the right decision on your own to read it or not and i may not even write it after all, because maybe i just did!  

peace, love, happiness, and the continued freedom to speak your mind

adios!

[This message has been edited by doreen peri (02-19-2002 03:06 PM).]

Poet deVine
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since 05-26-99
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Hurricane Alley


4 posted 02-19-2002 03:17 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Once upon a time, not too long ago, I was very active in a Christian Church. VERY active. I don't do things half way, I'm either IN or I'm out. So I typed the Sunday bulletins, taught the 5 year old Sunday School Class (loved that!), organized and served the monthly Senior member dinner, taught the Woman's Missionary Union and worked with the teen girls...

And then one day, the church deacons decided to fire the minister. Without telling anyone or getting any input. Well, that may have been their right, I don't know. But the result was the most vicious backbiting, unChristian like behavior I have ever seen.

I live my life in the way I think God would approve....I do no harm, I care about my fellow man and I try to understand and be compassionate of others trangressions.

We all live our lives differently and as long as no one is hurt, there is no harm in that. Preach to me if you want, but don't be offended if I don't reply. Actions speak louder than words.

And Doreen? I await with bated breath the next rant!!!   (can we have it NOW?)
Janet Marie
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since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


5 posted 02-19-2002 06:38 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
Did I remind anyone to keep fire in their solstice?



KA? ... you are the fire in my solstice  


"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power.  
We have guided missiles and misguided men."

MLK

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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6 posted 02-19-2002 07:53 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I would like to clarify something here, because I have volunteered for a rotation in the spiritual forum. I do not mind, in fact I LOVE conversation and discussion about the differences and similarities of various religions. But lately there seems to be a prevalent tone of scriptural quoting in replies in Open forum--and I think that some should be gently reminded that this forum is located on a WORLD WIDE WEB. Please stick to the poetry at hand. I might also remind all that our poets often write with allusion to mythical gods, which does not always denote an author's leaning toward Paganism or Pantheism. Save discussion of these potentially sensitive topics for discussion forums, or as I do when I have a question, ask via e mail. sigh...Love and peace to you all.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


7 posted 02-19-2002 09:20 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

sharon.... i might write it into  a poem... dunno yet

serenity - i applaud you!! that was soooo well said!!
Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


8 posted 02-19-2002 10:16 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

i'm a heathen, a admit it.
Christopher
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9 posted 02-19-2002 10:18 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

or maybe satan... been called that too...
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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10 posted 02-19-2002 10:19 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thanks all, and Chris? A HEATHEN? yer lucky yer cute!
Christopher
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11 posted 02-19-2002 10:21 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

also, i think... some people push because outside acceptance equals affirmation. many are not satisfied with their own answer - ther require the confirmation from others. (these are the ones that really bother me - those who truly believe [my aunt] don't bother me as much for some reason)
serenity blaze
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12 posted 02-19-2002 10:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Chris? and Satan too, no less...grinning
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


13 posted 02-19-2002 10:26 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

hey...I LIKE that, C...this is what I'm talking about, I love exchange of ideas, but resent a "push" of biblical quote, (and their chosen interpretation no less) hmmm...
grin...we should talk!
doreen peri
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14 posted 02-19-2002 10:34 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

hey christopher!! lemme see your pitch fork!!!
doreen peri
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since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


15 posted 02-19-2002 10:39 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

aww damn, i don't believe it, that's what i'm trying to say! If Christopher's Satan, then I'm Eve in Disguise!

but anyway... carry on... sorry to interrupt.. i was just here and saw all the stuff you guys wrote conversing with each other and thought i'd participate in some way but if i said anything wrong... Please PLEASE do not damn me ... aww hell, i'm just me

again, carry on... i went out on a limb, maybe ... *grin
doreen peri
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16 posted 02-19-2002 10:41 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

one more thing, btw... that comment about "affirmation", christopher, was quite brilliant
jenni
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since 09-11-99
Posts 511
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17 posted 02-20-2002 12:33 AM       View Profile for jenni   Email jenni   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jenni

i agree, serenity, it is annoying.  i had a summer job once with a girl who was absolutely one of the nicest people i have ever known in my life, and i really liked her, but i finally had to stop hanging out with her; she was born again, and hardly a day would go by without her trying to save me.  i agree with doreen; she would have been more successful, i think, if she had simply tried to lead by example.  (i, meanwhile, remain a hopeless spiritual mess in the "undecided" category.)

but she did help me understand something important.  she utterly believed in the "good news" of jesus christ as her personal savior, and it genuinely upset her, bothered her, that others whom she cared for -- me among them -- had not undergone the same spiritual transformation.  but why get in my face about it? i said to her once.  just let me be, i'll take care of things my own way, in my own time.  because, she said, it was like watching someone about to walk blindfolded off the edge of a cliff; she didn't feel like she could simply stand by and not say anything, content in the knowledge (or belief) that SHE wasn't going to walk off the same cliff.  she honestly felt like she had to do or say something,  the dangers, to her, were very real.  

if you think about it from that angle, her persistent efforts were actually pretty nice.  it's just one of life's little ironies that they also happened to be pretty annoying, lol.  

oh well.

jenni
serenity blaze
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18 posted 02-20-2002 01:54 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"but why get in my face about it?"

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Thanks.  

And...

"but i finally had to stop hanging out with her; she was born again,"

I was born okay the first time.

[This message has been edited by serenity (02-20-2002 04:44 AM).]

serenity blaze
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19 posted 02-20-2002 05:21 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Christopher?

"also, i think... some people push because outside acceptance equals affirmation"

I keep this quote close to my heart. I have missed you, lovie!
Titia Geertman
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since 05-07-2001
Posts 5297
Netherlands


20 posted 02-20-2002 07:30 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

I find it very hard to reply to poems about God or religion, because I'm a 'not-believer'. Still I can recognize a wellwritten poem if I see one, so if I say 'it's a good poem', that doesn't mean that I have the same feelings about the subject.

Does that make any sense???

I don't mind if I get responses as "God bless you" or something like that, because I know the writer is, as a believer, entitled to write that, it's what they truly believe. However, when they're trying to convince me that my way of living/believing is wrong and that their's is the only right one, well they loose me on the spot, for I won't accept that attitude. That has nothing to do with being 'worried', or 'concerned', that has everything to do with power.

Those people are determined in trying to change you into thinking exactly as they are. Their desire is: to have control.

I have a colleague who is the most strict believer I've ever met (no tv and such), but he is the most adorable colleague I have, simply because he is who he is and he lets me be who I am. Every year I design the windowposter for his Christmaschoir(?)(singers) performance and we discuss what should be on it, but never ever he has urged me to come and listen, because he knows I'm a not-believer. If he should do that, I wouldn't be able to do the designing anymore.

Ah, well, I've spent my two pennies here.

Live and let live is what I believe in.

Titia

A rose is a rose is a rose...I guess...
Check out my new website: lookheretitia.fcpages.com (I didn't 'link' this, so it won't take too much space).I

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


21 posted 02-20-2002 09:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

My first instinct was to say that we, those of us who aren't Christian, just have to put with it. A kinder, gentler Allan R.'s point if you will.

But I get annoyed and uncomfortable with this stuff just like everybody else.

In the most general sense, it's not the conversation and comments themselves which are perfectly legitimate, it's the sense that they're not appropriate at all times and all places: they're sneaking in a particular agenda when we're not looking.

Doesn't it seem, sometimes, that certain overzealous Christians have ulterior motives for everything they do?

Jenni points out that her friend really does care about her, but in a very real sense is that how it sounds or does it sound like she's not really seeing you, not recognizing you as a person. You become a thing to be molded, melded, and metamorphized into something else.

You become a project.

Believe it or not, that's okay (we all do it sometimes; we all believe in somethings that we want other people to believe.).

I don't mind being manipulated (I read poetry to be manipulated) but if you're going to manipulate me, you can probably do a better job than creating the feelings mentioned above.

It's just poor tactics.

Brad
serenity blaze
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22 posted 02-21-2002 01:30 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Brad, I think you hit on some personal insight for me, so I must thank you. I abhor becoming anyone's "project"--a different thing from mentorship, too, I think you will agree. It's both demoralizing and de-humanizing. Well, that is how it makes me feel anyway...

And also, I too had the attitude of "put up with it"...until now, and for all of the reasons you said!
Severn
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23 posted 02-21-2002 06:42 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

A project huh?

Let me play the devil's advocate here (no pun intended) for a moment folks.

Say you're a Christian...let's all think like Christians right now..(ardent ones) and this isn't a judgement - this is about inserting the foot into the shoe.

Let's say I'm a Christian: I go to church (oh and I have done this too, the whole church thing, long ago). I go to fellowship meetings. I learn about Jesus. I learn about salvation. I learn about how 'the only way to the Father is through me (Jesus).' I learn I am a saint and a disciple. I learn that my MISSION is to help people see the light of God. I learn about evangelicalising.

I learn that if I do NOT encourage people about God, then I am weak. I learn that if I stay quiet, in the face of such opinions as the above, then I am weak. I am not a good Christian. I am a house built on sand. True Christians REACH OUT to people - regardless of how those people feel at the time, because reaching out is 'planting seeds' to bring people to God.

God does the work, not me.

GOD speaks to the people, not me - I am but a messenger...

I do not see people as projects..I see them as lost souls who are missing out on the true meaning of life.

It is rational for Christians to plague other's with their beliefs because that is the whole point of being one!

I don't believe that those wholly endorsing Christian beliefs (or any others for that matter) see people as projects - in fact, I find that idea diminishing to the idea of people's faith.

In my opinion it might make it a little easier to bear if we could just UNDERSTAND where these people are coming from, and find ways to gracefully walk away, or ignore it.

Everyone has their own rational system, right or wrong to our own way of thinking. In fact K, I don't even think it's done out of a desire of 'meaning well' much of the time..it's done because it's NECESSARY for the plantation! jenni makes that point with her story of her friend. It HURTS these people to watch the unsaved - although of course it isn't wholly altruistic...being humans, that's impossible.

As for the affirmation theory C...I agree (gag) that many do it to be accepted, to follow the lead...but that fact remains, no matter their motivation people are still bible bashing with unsaved souls in their mind...the needy ones just think of themselves a little bit more in the process....

But it is something unavoidable for Christians, because it's inserted into their thinking processes. We will have to continue to put up with it. And accept it philosophically I think.

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (02-21-2002 07:18 AM).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


24 posted 02-21-2002 06:54 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I can tear this a part, you know.

Nevertheless, I agree with much.

If that is what you feel is necessary (not you personally), then do it.

But learn how to do it well!!!!!

I don't mean to diminish the belief, I mean to diminish the technique.

Brad
 
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